You might try searching for kohler stages posts. Those sinks have a ledge and accessories and people have posted fairly extensively on how they use them, including pictures of the sinks in action.

The Kohler Stages is the bomb! No other player even comes close. Certainly not any of the import knockoffs!

I don't have mine yet, but I am completely sold on the Kohler Stages sink.

Stages is the only one worth owning. Chinesecheapcrapknockoffs certainly aren't worth spending anyone's hard earned money on.

The Stages is 45" and $1,350 -- the sink pictured above is 30" and $370. (The small Stages seems too small of a basin.)

I get this sink would not be as good as a Stages, but for those of us who can't afford the price and size of the Stages my question is will the ledges and accessories make it more useful than a conventional 30" chinesecheapcrapknockoff?

The Stages 45 is a traditional 33'' single sink with a 12'' drainboard area. The Stages 33 is a standard 25'' single sink with a 13'' drainboard attached. That is the whole point of a ledges sink: the drainboard area.

There is no knockoff that comes close to the quality of Kohler, or with the plethora of accessories and the versatility that they bring to meal production and cleanup. Read rjr220's REVIEW There are plenty others who are VERY happy with Kohler.

If you are balking at the price, economize elsewhere. Or, eliminate the Stages. It's a great tool, but not everyone needs the best tools. Buy the best quality name brand sink that you can afford. American Standard, Franke, Blanco, etc. Chinese sinks are not an option for someone who will do a kitchen only once or twice in a lifetime. Unless you don't care about the long term.

Well, I'd still suggest reading the stages reviews to see how those posters use their sinks. I don't remember any reviews of other sinks with ledges (except maybe the gallery, also $$$). So I think the stages reviews will give you the best idea of how people use the ledges/accessories. Then you will have more information to decide whether the concept is worthwhile and whether this sink executes the concept well enough to be worthwhile.

All I can bring myself to politely say on the cheap Chinese crapola commentary that shows up on this forum all the time is that while many products from China are inferior, others are not (hello iPhone) and over-generalizations, like assuming that all products from China are lousy, tend to undermine the credibility of the argument for me. Specifics on how to judge a sink or on failure rates of particular brands would be more illuminating.

The problem with poor quality products is that the poor quality often isn't apparent on the surface when you receive it, at least to the inexperienced homeowner. For a sink, the poor quality issues will show up later, either during the install when the rim isn't flat, or the drain is misaligned to the accessores, or it begins to rust after use. Do you even want to know about radioactive waste that has made it into some Chinese sourced ''stainless' products? The recalls for that? Does that echo any other all too familiar issues that made the news?

After you've cut your stone and joined it forever and ever, you've married that sink, hold your peace. You don't get to divorce an undermount sink like you can a faucet. Not without a great deal of expense and trouble and paying a fabricator more than 2x what it will cost to do it right from the beginning. You have to choose the reliable long term partner who is in it for the long haul too, not the cheap and easy flash in the pan pop up company that didn't exist 3 years ago.

FYI, American Standard is not an American owned company and many of its products appear to be made in China--despite it's attempts to obscure that. Here's my source for that. So is the issue made in China or is it longevity and reputation of the particular company?

Faucets aren't sinks, and a well respected quality Japanese ownership group of a still mostly American based company isn't a Chinese government subsidized. 4 year old company. American Standard still produces a quality product, and will stand behind their warranty.

Delta has much of their designer line faucets, Danze, produced in China as well. And their new toilet lines. Unfortunately, many firms have some overseas production, and are at risk for iffy quality control. The bulk of most of Koher products is still US produced. There are other brands that offer quality products as well. But, you have to value quality.

The better firms that do some Chinese production will at least have been in business for decades, and have permanant company representatives in the production facilities, or own those facilities outright. They offer better oversight, and a better warranty, with real backing.

There is no real solution for consumers demanding luxury goods at builder prices other than to save and afford the real thing, or stop trying to keep up with the Joneses.

Where are the kohler stages sinks made? I'm not turning that information up in my searches.

I purchased a Ruvati sink RVH8300 for my 36" sink base. It has a cutting board, basket strainer (colander) and bottom sink grid. it's a huge single sink with drain in center rear and 10" deep. It's not installed yet, but bought it after seeing a review here on gardenweb. Beautiful sitting here in the box, so I'm hopeful it will wear just as well. I couldn't afford the Stages, and this was well under $500. Might search for it here.

I believe it was Peke who had it. So if you search Peke Ruvati Gardenweb, you'll find it.

The majority of Kohler's upper end sinks are US produced. Some of their lower priced models and Sterling models are Chinese produced with their quality control teams in place for inspection.

I appreciate the perspective on the Chinese crap and the Stages, but I didn't raise either of those topics and would love to have a conversation beyond "get a Stages, stop being a cheap, wannabe loser".

I'll be getting an undermount sink, I don't know which one, and it will be my first. I'm wondering if it's worthwhile to accessorise the sink or if it's turned out to be a waste for those who've done so.

Please don't let me stop you guys from taking about the Stages, China and the "losers" who use them. But I'm still interested in alternatives. Designsaavy, I greatly appreciate your help in that direction.

So maybe the stages is made in the US. Or maybe not. I looked on their website and couldn't find that information. The stages has a one year warranty. At least that's what I am seeing here. Which doesn't seem like much honestly. I find it hard to imagine anyone is offering a shorter warranty?

At any rate, it's pretty clear that just avoid Chinese is an over-generalization and not all that useful for someone trying to make choices. So the criteria are price? More expensive always equals better? A name that seems American? A brand that has produced quality products historically?

I had a Kallista Soltiere sink with ledge installed in my new build kitchen about a year ago. My kitchen gets a lot of use. I find the ledge really easy to keep clean. I was concerned about the move to a stainless sink having never had one before, but the stainless on this sink is not too loud, and the finish is nice. It's a great sink. The sink came with a walnut cutting board that fits the ledge. The cutting board is great for prep work, but it's also really handy for somewhat concealing items I shove under it while entertaining so that items are out of sight until it's convenient to deal with them. The walnut cutting board on this sink makes a very happy visual. :) Honestly, though, the accessories I use most at my sink while prepping are this drying rack that I use for veggies and expandable colanders like this one. These accessories are great for use with sink ledges, but they would be just as great with any undermount sink. For me, what is most helpful is having a big, single basin because of the flexibility this design allows. I had a large Blanco Silgranit sink (Anthracite) in my last house, and I also have one (Anthracite) in my new house in a serving area. Love, love, love the Silgranit sinks. I am very happy with my Kallista (main) sink with ledge, but I could have been just as pleased functionally with my main sink being another single basin Blanco Silgranit sink given the couple of accessories I noted above.

I have an Ikea Domsjo single sink and I have the cutting board and colander that fit over it. I quite often use the accessories. I'll rinse the items, chop them and then transfer them to the bowl or pot/pan I'm using. And as ott2 said, it comes in handy for hiding dirty dishes when you need to. :)

I wouldn't want a sink like that because it's more 90-degree angles to have to clean, and spraying them to rinse them would cause water to go all over the place. I don't see the benefit at all. Plus, they just take up room in the sink so you'll probably be constantly removing them. I see them as the "jangly keys" manufacturers use to charge a whole lot more for…a sink.

I have zero stake in any sink or faucet manufacturer. I don't need to justify one choice over another for any reason than quality and a globally and nationally ethical choice to do the right thing. When you have a Personal justification ax to grind about your own choice, your voice loses clarity and objectivity.

Where you choose to spend your money DOES matter. Period. Choosing to do business with those who commit intellectual theft, are careless about material sources, and can produce anything $10 cheaper for a reason, is placing your own momentary pocketbook loss above all other issues. Venality is never a good position from which to make a decision.

No one has an unlimited pocketbook, so the best approach to that is to limit the wants, not the quality. Wanting something doesn't make it a need.

I have zero stake in any business related to kitchen remodeling. And I'm buying a stages 45 sink for my upcoming remodel.

But I am beyond tired of seeing the phrase Chinese crapola on this forum. It's not at all helpful to anyone trying to decide what products to buy and it's unnecessarily insulting to a pretty big percentage of the world's population. The argument seems to have shifted from quality to ethics, yet we still don't know where the recommended stages sink is even made. For all I know, it's made in China.

I raised the stages in the first place only because it is a sink with a ledge that has a fairly big body of reviews by users on this forum. I still think reading those reviews would be useful in deciding whether or not to get a sink with ledges. As to alternatives, I wonder if you could have just about any undermount sink installed with a positive reveal to create a ledge. I know I have seen ikea accessories recommended for use with the stages. I imagine you could find others as well.

Sophie, I see you derailing too many threads with your soapbox. Last one was about KitchenCraft, where you're basically saying buy Brookhaven or better, or go home.

Your point is taken that you like American made quality. We all do, though paying American branded or assembled prices of Chinese materials and components isn't always the value you'd like to believe.

In any case, my suggestion is you place a few rants in the "New to Kitchens ?" thread and then bump it to your heart's content. People might appreciate that.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2843508/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first?n=134

denizenx, scrappy25 has some info on using her Kohler Stages sink (and accessories) in this thread:
Scrappy 25 Renovation Part 3 - The Kitchen Cockpit (Stages 45)

I'm interested in this thread because I've had the same questions about whether or not we'd adapt to really using the new accessories that come with this type of sink. They look like they'd be fun to use, and frankly I just like how they look!

Regarding quality, here’s a link to the Home Depot reviews for the Kohler Stages 33" single bowl $1274. The first review that comes up is a one star review
because her newly installed Kohler Stages sink has a missed weld, causing a leak. Discovered
after countertop installation. She has attached a detail photo that
looks pretty convincing.

I’m just saying that no brand is guaranteed to be
without problems. Thanks to the honesty here, I really think most of the detail-oriented folks who read
here understand the potential trade-offs of buying a knock-off brand. For that reason, I appreciate the discussion of specific potential pitfalls (rust, rim not flat, etc)
because it leads to a better informed
decision.

For me it seems like a wash. It might be foolish for me to take a
risk on a lower priced sink (what if flaws surface) but it might also be foolish to put a $$$$ sink in my house, in my neighborhood. I’ll
never get back much of that sink investment for resale, around here. It doesn't seem goofy for me to include that in my considerations.

Sophie I love your posts, but it doesn't feel like I'm being venal or trying to keep up with the Joneses. I don't see what's wrong with doing the research, understanding the trade offs, and then making the choice that seems to fit my particular situation (?)

When I started researching sinks, I originally thought, "That much for a sink! No way!" I mean, it's water and a drain, right? At first I was very interested in the Blanco Cascade ... then I saw the Gallery (whose price makes the Stages look like it comes from a gumball machine) ... but when I really started digging, I decided that I definitely wanted the Stages. I kept a list for two weeks of whether the cutting board /sink combo would've been useful -- and I found that it would've been an asset to my life in all but two days out of that time period. So I decided it'd be worth the splurge.

My reasoning is much along the lines stated above: I cook most every meal from scratch, so I really want a sink that'll be good for chopping lots of vegetables and home canning. I couldn't care less what the Jones are doing -- a sink isn't a status piece. I do not want to re-do my sink later: I do not want to cut an expensive piece of granite and then be unable to change the sink later.

I currently live in a house with the splurges in all the wrong places; for example, huge formal living room and tiny closets. Miles of counterspace, good lighting over only 3' of it. My goal in building this house is to plan the best function to suit our family's lifestyle.

MY CHOICE, which shouldn't necessarily be your choice at all, is to splurge on the kitchen sink, which is used constantly all day, every day and to skimp on other things. AND I'm watching for the sink to go on sale; I've read about people getting the Stages sink in the upper $800s, so I'm patiently waiting, and when I find such a deal ... it'll be mine.

I bought a Rachiele copper smart sink with an integral ledge. There is both a cutting board which is used occasionally (only due to the fact that it's large and most times it's easiest to grab a smaller wooden board) and a perforated copper 'shelf' that covers nearly 1/2 the sink. I love it, it's hardly ever out of the sink. So handy for so many things including defrosting foods. Also, I can keep my dishpan hidden under the shelf. I think anything that makes a space more flexible without unnecessary complications is a good thing.

Wow, this thread has gone all over the place. I think I'll stay on topic as I've been thinking about this since you posted. I've been using my Stages 45 since July 2014. I use the accessories every day. I also use my existing regular round colanders and cutting boards in addition to those provided. I truly believe it is because of the 45" width and the shelf. I am constantly sliding the two plastic reversible boards so I can access the colanders underneath. The way I use it is similar to the $Galley$. It is very easy to keep clean.

I initially allowed for the 24" Domsjo sink in my install. As I read about the Stages on this forum, and suffered through 9 months of doing dishes and cooking in a bathroom vanity, I came to realize the importance of the sink with scratch cooking. I live in a modest home in a modest neighborhood. I had $300 for my sink allowance. It's not our forever home even though we are retired. My DH told me to stop suffering over the decision to spend so much. Would it be useful and make me happy for a few years? Then it is worth the cost amortized. I ordered it that night.

I love a lot of things about my kitchen, but none compare to the Stages 45 (umm, I think I like the Karbon just as much). I will get both in my next kitchen.

I've thought on and off throughout the years about the stages sink (yes, this has been a long awaited remodel.) In the meantime I decided my then current, tiny, shallow double sink had to go. We bought the super single offset drain silgranit and installed it in our old cabinet. Dh had to scoop out the sides of the cabinet to make it work, but OH WAS IT BETTER than before. I chose this because I thought I could reuse it when we did remodel. Now it's remodeling time. :-) !!! I'm still tempted by the stages sink, but I am very happy with what we have as well. Dh, who has been very hands off for decisions, saw the stages video and was quite intrigued. I spent some time mocking up what we'd have to do to change plans - it is possible. (Cabinets are already ordered.) I'm pretty sure that even though the stages is singing sweetly to me, I need to stick to the plan. Mostly because of the price tag. Currently the stages is showing as $1350 at faucet direct -- it's hard to justify that price (plus at least one more faucet cuz I'd definitely want 2!) when I am happy with what I have already - essentially "free." & seeing that the regular price was just in the $1100's a few months ago -- with Scrappy finding one on sale in the $800's.... Anyway. If I was starting from scratch, I think I'd definitely go that route. Already having a sink and a faucet onsite that I like makes the sink seem that much more expensive. We've told ourselves that if something somehow happens to the sink during the remodel, we might make a last second switch.

Stages 45 Price History

I've been intrigued with the Stages sinks since they were first introduced about 5 years ago...at that time, it was a much more affordable alternative to a now-discontinued Blanco drainboard sink. The Stages could be bought for around $600 vs around $2K for the Blanco...(small wonder that it was discontinued?) But the price increases of the Stages have been nothing short of staggering.

Almost makes you think that the Stages was too popular & Kohler needed to clear out a lot of backorders. So they raise the price to keep from having to increase production....

Kohler took control of their business a few years ago instead of letting the resellers run it. They now have UMRP pricing, similar to SubZero and Wolf and many other high end manufacturers. They only will sell their products through authorized resellers that promise to not sell under a certain price. The price stabilization and only using certain partners as sellers stabiliized the customer service expectations for consumers. You can expect a certain level of retailer support now as a matter of course, or they can lose that ability to sell the product.

Again, putting quality aside and looking at form and function, I can see the benefit of the Stages 45, but not the 33, wherein I think I'd prefer something like the Ruvati, where there's more basin and less (zero) drain board.

I guess I don't see myself using the drainboard much. I see it mentioned a lot for defrosting meat. I generally put my meat in a waterproof bag and put it in a bowl of water to defrost, it's way faster than just air. And I figure I could just use a cutting board or colander in the place of the drainboard. Am I wrong, is there something incredibly useful about the drainboard that is worth giving up basin space for?

I guess it depends on how you use your kitchen. For me personally, I could see it being useful if you do a lot of hand washing. But currently if I hand wash, I dry and put away, or place it on a towel on counter to drain. I've never owned a sink with one, so perhaps there's more use for it than I'm aware of. Perhaps someone with the Stages can weigh-in on that. I'm not even sure I will like the accessories with the Ruvati, but if not, there are alternatives that I can use with the ledge; I.e., plastic cutting board instead of wood, etc)

If you search, there are some threads that discuss the stages 33. This is one. Depending on what countertop material you are planning to use, you might also consider whether runnels would provide some/all of the function of the shelf for you.

Denizenx--If the drainboard section of a sink can be installed over the dishwasher, then it really isn't a question of giving up sink space.

Personally, I think I would find a plain drainboard sink more useful than a sink with those ledges that eat into the interior space of a sink. I can't really see myself using the cutting board over a sink--the faucet would get in the way; carrots would skittle off the cutting board and into a questionably clean sink; you can chop anywhere you have a cutting board and don't need to monopolize sink space... Whereas, the drainboard would be handy to set a colander of stuff to drain without occupying sink space. Wouldn't use the drainboard to thaw meat--I use the griddle on the Wolf for that. Drainboard would be handy for draining produce from the garden...

Yet--all things considered, and if I had plenty of space, I think I would prefer having a gigantic 48" all-sink with two faucets.

I think whether the Stages 45 or a different sink (undermount, positive reveal, that allows for a ledge for accessories) is the right choice depends on the kitchen layout and counter space. In my kitchen, I have no good place for a Stages 45. Mainly because the logical place for the prep sink, in relation to range, doesn't allow for the DW to be placed anywhere but between the sink and range. Ugh! One of the reasons I'm remodeling in the first place is to move the dang DW out of the middle. So I suggest that kitchen layout be considered as well and space needed for that size sink, how it impacts other function issues, etc. Not just the sink itself.

All good comments and things to consider. Having a 45" sink would be nice but couldn't work with my Ikea cabs. The drainboard allowed for a minor mod and use of two base cabs rather than one large one. I find the drainboard very useful. I love cleaning and chopping veggies in that half. I like being able to slide them to pans in the ledge below. I like having the water and soap right there for my obsessive hand washing. You can still accomplish a similar arrangement with the other sinks you're looking at, but with less space.

My use of the ledge evolves throughout the day. Right now I have a dish drainer in it with clean dishes. If I'm cleaning a lot of veggies, I'll first use it for all the debris so I do not have to let it get stuck in the grid. A garbage bowl can be used instead, but this is so easy and the trash/recycle is in the pullout below.

I thaw most meat in the fridge, but do quick thaw fish, pork tenderloins, and chicken breasts in the plastic accessories. They are the perfect size, are right there to drain and refill with cold water. Since they are raised I still have room on the grid below for other items draining in colanders as I work on the drainboard side chopping. I mostly keep the other side for dirties, cans draining, and water use by others.

The drainboard came in very handy during the holidays for opening and cleaning large, messy items, like turkey, ham, and tenderloin. The ledge is a clean part of my sink so keeping those items out of the basin is a plus for me. Of course, I disinfect before and after. I always open my meat packages there to keep the mess as contained as possible.

I like that the sink becomes my command center and I pretty much do not need to move much. I take recipe items from the pantry and fridge that is just across the aisle to the right. As I finish each stage of prepping I move the trays of prepped food to the counter behind me. DW is out of the way to the left. I only go a few steps in each direction. I mention this as layout to suit your cooking style, minimize movement, and stay out of the paths of others help make your prepping experience good. A large sink surely helps, whichever you can fit and afford. Critical to my good experience with the Stages 45 is the Kohler Karbon. It is a wonderful faucet that greatly enhances my time at the sink.

All said, we can adapt to our equipment and make the best of what we have. If your cooking style is mis en place, I think you would use the accessories.

I am thinking of the Kohler Stages, or similar, because I have such a small kitchen. The 45 would take up most of one leg, but the idea that I could pretty much cover up most of the sink to use as counter space at times is something I would like a lot. I will probably need two faucets as well. But I think one could be a bar faucet with no frills, they don't have to match exactly.

I looked at using a cheaper variant, but for me that would probably mean getting a cutting board and/or pieces of Corian custom fitted to the sink, and this would probably end up being more expensive than just going with the Kohler.

Installing the ledge portion of the sink over the dishwasher does not change how large the sink basin is. The 45" (about 43" interior) sink sounds huge but the shelf is at least 12" so your basin is actually about 33". The 33" stages is that much smaller. I prefer to use accessories that can be pushed on a ledge to a different area of the sink or taken out so I have full use of a larger basin. I don't get the permanent shelf.

It's to be used as a prep area. There are full sinks this shallow although they are not common. Sometimes known as vegetable sinks I think:

It's also a good place for a dish drainer.

The idea of washing carrots in the sink, then cutting them, and swooshing them into a bowl right there in the same place works for me. If one falls into a "questionably clean sink", I'd just wash it again.

I'm pretty sure that if you install the Stages with the drain side over a dishwasher, you must have slightly-higher kitchen cabinets. This means a bit of customizing (meaning, money) and is unattractive to short people like me.

I'm not into the two faucets idea, nor can I see myself spending on the oft-paired-with-the-Stages Kohler faucet. It may be functional, but it's also weird looking, and I just don't think I really need the ability to move the faucet into weird positions and leave it running while I do something else. It'll be one simple, pull-down faucet for me -- and something more traditional looking. We all draw our lines somewhere.

I can't believe that super-shallow "vegetable sink" exists! Wouldn't it splash water everywhere? What a waste.

" I can't believe that super-shallow "vegetable sink" exists! Wouldn't it splash water everywhere? What a waste "

You can set the pressure that comes out of the faucet by turning down the valves under the sink. It's the same principle as the wading pool lavatory sinks: the water comes out at low enough pressure not to splash.

I don't want one like this (although I thought of setting one in the floor inside a cabinet to drain wet shoes and umbrellas--overkill sorta) ...but I don't think anything is a waste if the person actually uses it.

The idea of washing carrots in the sink, then cutting them, and swooshing them into a bowl right there in the same place works for me. If one falls into a "questionably clean sink", I'd just wash it again.

But can't you do that now with any kind of sink? I'm not saying against the Stages as it looks like a cool sink and if people want it they should get it, but I do all that standing in one place now and always have with just my regular sink.

I think that you can do an awful lot with almost nothing. I had a client that cooked a lot and had a 24" wide range and prepped on a cutting board balanced on about 6" of counter between the edge of the cabinet run and the sink.

So sinks like this are a "refinement" I guess, on a standard sink. I grew up with a double sink that came with a cutting board that fit onto the top of one of the sinks and that was it. But when that cutting board disappeared a few years back (my dad had commandeered it for some reason), that missing component of the cutting board that covered part of the sink was noticeable in its absence. So, you can do without it. But you have to decide how much you want to pay for refinement and how much you need it.

I don't think I could justify a Galley, either the size or the $4000 price tag, but I wonder what would happen if I moved into a house that had one. I would probably be able to justify a Stages, because it isn't all that much more than a standard sink that I would probably choose anyway.

I lived for years without a washer and dryer, years with no air conditioning, and actually 4 years without a kitchen at all, and I survived all of it, but once you have something, it's harder to go back.

I think for me part of the fascination of these ledge sinks is learning to do things in a new way, and maybe a more efficient way. Right now I store my cutting boards in a lower cabinet (bend over to get them, bend over to put them away) and I wonder about having a lovely one that just stayed out. Same thing with my various strainers, all stored in lower cabs. Maybe a ledge sink strainer could double as a simple drainboard when not being used for veggies; that might eliminate the visual clutter of a drying rack.

We eat lots of salads. It's not a big deal, but chopping and sliding the pieces into a bowl sitting to the side and just below the cutting surface (as bbtrix shows above) would be a much more efficient movement than the steps I do now. The biggest compartment in our current sink is only 14" wide so I do almost everything on the counter. So constant moving side to side from sink to (prep area) counter, which also means I am hogging both spaces so DH can't use them at the same time. I keep thinking a longer ledge type sink could open up more work spaces for both of us.

Palimpsest, until your post above I had not considered our simple kitchen could justify two faucets on a long sink. But you're right, one could be a very simple faucet. We have no room for an island and no room for a prep sink...but we do have a very long existing cabinet base. A splurge on a long sink with two faucets would allow both of us to stop battling over the single faucet.

denizenx, thanks for this thread, it's a helpful discussion.