Combining kerdi and hydroban for shower
Comments (16)
MongoCT
9 years agocataan
9 years agoRelated Discussions
Glass Tile on a Kerdi Shower System
Comments (7)I would not be installing glass tile over Kerdi. Not unless I get a letter of permission from Schluter head office. If you are in this pickle before purchasing your Kerdi - switch hats and use Nobel TS. If the Kerdi is all ready installed call Schluter for an OK. Hold off on the install until you get one. Schluter reps have been known to tell the tile boys in their towns it's OK to use modified and the best installers in NA (like Bill) understand how to pull it off. For the average installer or DIY you can cause lots of problems and in the end have lost your warranty. We stopped using Kerdi nearly 18 months ago because of this crazy warranty issue of Schluter. It's wrong they strip the warranty when modified thinsets are used - and they make getting one near impossible. In fact I know of not one single person every to receive one. Lots of advice will tell you its Ok or it will work - but don't you want to hear it from the company themselves? Since we switched to Hydro Ban and Nobel TS our installs are better and have a longer warranty. Just doesn't make sense to loose your warranty as a DIYer. JW...See MoreKerdi shower question
Comments (17)According to the technical service person at Laticrete that I emailed over the weekend, their pans can be cut to size. Have you ever done that? Recommended? I mud all my pans, and then install the membrane over the mud. AS for cuttung the pan trays, I don't see a problem with it. The company is KBRS Innovative Shower Systems (linked below). Do you know if this company is reputable? I've never heard of them before right now. DH says he's interested in this Tile-ez product. He says that it seems to be the easiest to install. Any feedback on this product (linked below)? Another one I've never heard of. One other thing to think about-- if you use someone else's materials for ANY part of the installation, Laticrete won't honor the warranty. Nor will Kerdi, if you go that route....See MoreKerdi Shower Part Deux
Comments (52)Kerdi Update: I've gotten a couple of emails regarding the newer "Kerdi-DS". First, emails. I often get emails sent to me through the G'web email system, and because of the sender's setting on his/her G'web account, those emails can not be replied to. So don;t think I'm rude for not replying to your question. More often than not, it's literally impossible for me to reply to your email due to your account settings. Kerdi-DS. What is it? It's simply a thicker version of plain ole Kerdi. Kerdi is 8-mil, Kerdi-DS comes in at 20-mils thickness. Why is -DS now getting attention here in North America? Because TCNA has changed their recommendations for membranes used in commercial or heavy use steam showers. Recommendations for residential use steam showers have not changed at all. What or who is TCNA? TCNA is the Tile Council of North America. You might see references to TCNA when it comes to installing tile. TCNA publishes "best practice" guidelines for tile installation. You have an organization like TCNA which is fairly nimble when it comes to changing recommendations for installing tile. Then you have "building code", which only gets updated every few years, and updates are subject to influence from various interest groups; be they trade groups (plumbers, electricians, etc) or large corporations that make building materials. TCNA will often make tile/shower/bath recommendations that improve building practices several years ahead of those changes being implemented into state or national building codes. Blah blah blah. So what is this about? We have water barriers, which limit the penetration of liquid water. Then we have vapor barriers, which limit moisture vapor penetration. At a minimum, a water barrier is needed in a shower or tub surround. A more robust barrier, or a vapor barrier, is needed in a steam shower. Protection from vapor penetration has been typically defined by a product's "perm rating". Previously, if a product had a perm rating of less than 1.0, it was considered a vapor barrier. Example, a topical membrane that I use often is Hydroban. Hydroban has a perm rating greater than 1.0, so it can be used as a waterproof membrane in a shower, but it won't suffice as a vapor barrier in a steam shower. A product like RedGard has a perm rating of less than 1.0, so it can be used as a waterproof barrier in a regular shower, or as a vapor barrier in a steam shower. Kerdi? "Regular" Kerdi, the "standard" 8-mil thick Kerdi, has a perm rating of around .90, so it can be used as a water barrier in a regular shower, or as a vapor barrier in a residential steam shower. TCNA has revised their recommendations for vapor barriers used in heavy use or commercial use steam showers. Health clubs, spas, etc. Whereas the old recommendation was to use a material that simply had a perm rating of less than 1.0, for commercial installations like listed above the recommendation has been......See MoreNew shower with Kerdi-board?
Comments (11)What types of installs require less than than a .75 perm rating? Just about all material will wick water - Wonderboard, Hardiboard, Drywall, GreeneBoard, Durock - the purpose of all these membranes is to keep water from reaching the edges of these "boards" thus allowing capillary action to take over. Ditto with the flexing - all will flex - some less than others so one needs to choose where certain material are used. Flex is a great thing if you're trying to wrap a tightly curved wall or column - just try that with Wonderboard! Waste of money???? In many instances there are cheaper alternatives, but this product can useful and reasonably priced in some instances....See More
PROBy Any Design Ltd.
9 years ago- PRO
By Any Design Ltd.
9 years agolast modified: 9 years agoThis is Hydro ban Sheet Membrane - with all the corners and flashing.
Unlike Kerdi - this material is approved for high use steam showers. And I think if my last order was right it is a hair cheaper than Kerdi as well.
While your calling manufactures - call Laticrete as well. I think when you ask them about your plan they will suggest a little bit of the Hydro Ban Band..... cataan
9 years ago- PRO
By Any Design Ltd.
9 years ago - PRO
By Any Design Ltd.
9 years agoThere are two products designed for movement like this.
One is called Mapeband. And the other is Kerdi-Flex.
I stock Mapeband in my office and Kerdi-Flex is sold I believe only in Europe.
If you are worried about following all the rules then you should be busting out some 6mil Vapour barrier and lapping the lip of the shower base. Does the shower base even have a tile flange? many do not... - PRO
By Any Design Ltd.
9 years agoLast summer I had to install this shower pan made from one piece of shaped stone. talk about a pain in the ___. No tile flange. Covered with a sealer.
No North American Drain sizing.
One of the hardest showers to prep.
Here the base is going in after I waterproofed the entire base from the back side. The scraps of Kerdi are there to be later bonded to the shower base top.
I used Ardex 8+9 as my primary waterproofing systems and scraps of Kerdi as fill. I stopped using or purchasing Kerdi over 15 months ago. This job last summer cleaned up all my scrap.
Later the work shown here was tied into the wall assembly.
Not sure I love the approach I took but I have never installed an ASIAN STONE BASE before.
If you believe everything you read the work I took was not needed. Because the sealer is waterproof. The water based sealer is water proof. I laughed at that. And did not trust the instructions from a few suppliers.
A shower base should have a tile flange. With out one you need to go COWBOY MongoCT
9 years agoThe detail you're trying to achieve is the same as using a topical membrane for a tub surround. Hopefully this drawing will post, it's from a thread several years ago.
Although this drawing was to depict Kerdi, it's pretty much the same for a topical liquid membrane like HB. For joints, Laticrete specifies using fabric to bridge certain seams. You can use Laticrete fabric or anti-fracture membrane to bridge the gap from the cement board to the base flange, applying HB as needed. It's the same idea that you originally had using Kerdi to bridge the gap.
I fully understand Laticrete, or Schluter, or Nobel, or whomever, saying they don't make a product for this application. They do. The products will work. They simply can't acknowledge every possible variation in an installation.
With all that written, look at the drawing again. If the wall tile is standard sized tile, a good portion of the tile will be bonded to the membrane that is directly backed by cement board. An inch or so of tile will be bonded to the fabric/membrane that is floating over the cement board-to-flange gap and down over the flange. That's fine.
Where you can sort of run in to trouble is if you're using a small mosaic tile on the walls and you want the mosaic to extend down over the flange. In an installation like that, you could have issues with the bottom course or two of mosaic, as they'd only be bonded to the fabric that's bridging the gap. In a case like that, I'd shift gears for a slightly different approach.
That's the reluctance of any manufacturer to say their product will work. Their product can work. But there are so many variables in installations that for sure someone will bugger it up and bad mouth the product used in the failed installation, even though responsibility for failure lays with the installer rather than the product.
PROMint tile Minneapolis
9 years agolast modified: 9 years agocataan
9 years agoThe tile is 12x12 porcelain tile (possibly 6x6 but unlikely). The flange of the shower base can be seen in the pic below - using the tape measure as a guide, it starts at 1-1/4 up to 2 inches. I need to be sure that whatever I use to adhere the fabric to the flange will actually adhere to the flange.
- PRO
Mint tile Minneapolis
9 years agolast modified: 9 years agowell if you use Kerdi band it should be kerdi fix.
if you use laticrete it should be Hydroban and hydroban fleece
if you use mapeiband it should be mapei...etc
etc.
you are in the grey area still.???
Pic a membrane option first. If in doubt call the mfg tech support, but you have options and if done correctly you will have no issues.....
id add a course of sole plate blocking while you continue to think it over.
cataan
9 years agocataan
9 years ago- PRO
By Any Design Ltd.
9 years ago
cataanOriginal Author