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Need help with selecting Eff Heat Pump replacement.

9 years ago

20 yr old American Std Heat Pump stopped working. Load rating when home was built was a 3 ton unit. A 3.5 ton 12 seer was installed. 1,987 sq ft. One level in Clover SC on the lake. warm humid summers, mild winters with occasional weeks with temp below 30* Considering Trane, American Std, or Carrier. want a reliable system, good track record. the information is overwhelming when I look at brochures and online. On a fixed income...Natural gas is available on our street now. I need a good efficient system. Husband is not able to help with decision process. I've seen info on Trane XR15 or XR16, Amer Std Gold XI 15 & 16. I need sound advice on best options for our home.

Comments (40)

  • 9 years ago

    Here is my heat pump spec sheet

    New Heat Pump System


    Here is my general spec sheet for new system.

    both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.


    15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF

    best matching VS air handler

    full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size

    R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)

    scroll compressor preferred

    electronic demand defrost preferred

    thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature

    staged backup heat strips

    new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset

    10 yr warranty on parts and compressor


    you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.


    any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.


    My personal recommendation is Trane/AmStd and Carrier/Bryant.


    Depending on your location, I would not purchase a new system that did not have electronic demand defrost.


    If you have nat gas available, I think you should consider a furnace.

    Post both your all inclusive nat gas rate cost/therm and your electric rate cost/kWH. I will then run a heating fuel comparison.


    I would recommend either Trane or sister company Am Standard especially for heat pumps.


    I would ask dealers quoting to make a thorough inspection of your ductwork. Any hot/cold pots in home should be addressed.


    If nat gas then a two stage var speed high eff furnace like Trane's XV95. I would want to see a load calc especially for cooling. If your home has better than average insulation qualities, difficult to understand why you would need a 3 1/2 ton condenser.


    IMO



  • 9 years ago

    great specs to start your decision making process.


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  • 9 years ago

    Ok here is info from Utility Co our mth kwh avg 1200-1700, eer kwh rate 8.5 cents. Natural Gas $5.00 mth facility chg plus .95 cent per therm. Duct work: Only 1/2 of house duct work is accessible (unfinished head room crawl space) where air handler is located. Other half is a basement garage that is finished and all duct work is encased and covered with sheetrock. In the unfinished area There is a galvanized steel main trunk with flex duct going to receptacles. We have maintained a service agreement the entire 20 years. Mastic was retreated after 10 yrs and flex re-taped when needed. We have not noticed any hot or cold spots. Air temp was always ckd with each svc mtnc.

  • 9 years ago

    You need a load calculation both cooling and heating and with agreed upon design temps inside your home and outside. Insist on it. I would lean toward high eff nat gas furnace with 15 SEER minimum AC condenser.

    IMO

  • 9 years ago

    Regarding home insulation efficiency. In 1996 we had the highest r factor available installed in walls and blown for overhead to receive eer rating.. I believe R 38 blown in ceing (hip roof), R 12-14 in walls (all brick home), R4-8 in unfinished crawl area. I can't find Load calc report, but remember it listed 3 ton. We have floor to ceiling windows along front and rear of house , but covered porches on largest window spans. Hope this helps. Thank you for your assistance.

  • 9 years ago

    tigerdunes, who do I contact to perform load calculation? Is this a service provided by those companies we would contact for quotes?

  • 9 years ago

    Request it from dealer you select and make it a condition of the purchase. Insist on it, agree to the design temps, and request a copy on the software letterhead room x room. Your home has adequate returns?

    TD

  • 9 years ago

    My apologies, this is all a bit overwhelming. We don't have a dealer. I was under the impression we needed to know what type of set up we wanted, seer rating, etc. before contacting dealer(s) for quotes. Not sure what to do at this point. If this is not the right forum is it possible to direct me in the right direction. Thank you for the information. I'll keep trying.........

  • 9 years ago

    I don't understand the above post. You need to get a dealer involved to get a quote for a new HVAC system. You tell them what you are looking for. You don't purchase HVAC from a forum like this. I would start with a Trane/AmStd or Carrier/Bryant dealer for your area. Their websites have dealer locators which might be helpful to you. The process starts with research and picking up the phone.

  • 9 years ago

    Tigerdunes, thank you. I called our current HVAC service co yesterday evening (they only install Trane). He emailed me estimates for a 3.5 ton straight Heat Pump system and a 3.5 ton gas with a/c using current system sizing as starting point. Heat Pump Option 1 - XR15/GAM5. Option 2- XR16/TAM7. Gas with AC. Option 1 XR16/Coil/XL95. Option 2- XR16/coil/XV95. My email included that we wanted a Load Calculation done to determine proper unit sizing. This past wk has been stressful, my father passed away and Heat Pump burned up . Cost is a factor, but want best efficiency too.

  • 9 years ago

    Ok. I have an engineer coming out tomorrow to do a load calculation. We have decided to go with a gas furnace with AC. It was mentioned to start with a minimum 15 seer on AC with a EER of 12.5 or better and thermostat with on demand dehumidifier. Anything else? Now that we have decided to go with a gas furnace what should we be looking for in a furnace. Have never had gas as a heating source in my 60+ years. Thank you for your help.

  • 9 years ago

    If Trane or Am Std, then XV95 2 stage var speed furnace with XR15 AC and best matching Trane evap coil, no substitute. I prefer Trane's Perfect Fit media filter cabinet. HW Prestige 2.0 IAQ thermostat with dehumidify on demand set up. Ask for WifI if interested.

    IMO


  • 9 years ago

    Thank you tigerdunes. we are looking at 4-6 weeks before gas line can be run. Once we get the load calc I will be able to give info to other dealers to quote. Our current HVAC dealer who installed our Amer Std is strictly a Trane Dealer now. They are the only dealer I've contacted. It was a starting point. I'll request quotes from Amer Std. and Carrier too. Price shock for sure! I'll post full systems info once we narrow it down. thank you again for your help..

  • 9 years ago

    Here is what I have. Load sizing 3.4 ton . Unit quoted 3.5 ton Trane xr16 A/C mdl# 4ttr6042b1, coil mdl# 4txcc049bc3, xv95 gas furnace mdl# uh2c100a9v5. AHRI ref # 5867536, new trane media filter at furnace, seal all duct work, new drain line, new thermostat. was told XR 15 is Heat Pump model.

  • 9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    All good equipment. You don't need a HP condenser if hooking up to nat gas. The furnace quoted is 100 K XV95. Too large. Drop back to the 80 K size, model number below.TUH2B080A9V4VB 40 17.5 28 49,500/76,00095 Yes. Furnace will require a true 2 stage thermostat.

    IMO

  • 9 years ago

    Thank you. I'm going to assume the coil quoted is the HP condenser you are referring to. I am getting the sick feeling the rep does not know what he is doing or we are being taken advantage of. The cost for this is $9,400. The product: split system: air cooled condensing unit, coil with blower. Our understanding is we are getting a gas furnace and a separate AC that will be connected to existing duct work.

  • 9 years ago

    I'd like to get a carrier/Bryant quote. What do you recommend based on what we are seeing above? thank you for your help.

  • 9 years ago

    "I am getting the sick feeling the rep does not know what he is doing".

    Is this rep the "engineer" that performed the load calculation? Price seems a bit steep for a straight swap out. Get an estimate from Carrier and Rheem. Trane and Carrier tend to be a bit pricey but if you let the dealers know you are getting several estimates, they may "sharpen their pencils".

  • 9 years ago

    Thank you. sales rep sent "engineer" to perform the calc. Was here approx. 2 hrs. rep can back with report and quotes. asked for a copy of the manual j rpt. were told they were not suppose to give to the customer, but ended giving us a copy after further discussion. The price is actually $1,500 higher when you add what the dealer is charging to hook up to the gas line and cost of extended warranty. Thank you again.

  • 9 years ago

    Well, depending on how long the gas line hookup is, the $1500 sounds about typical for that plus a 10 year labor warranty.

  • 9 years ago

    I do not know your nat gas supplier but I live in upstate of SC and PNG handles the hookup and connection for new service, not an HVAC dealer.

    IMO

  • 9 years ago

    Our nat gas supplier runs gas line from the road to the house. There is a separate cost for this. The dealer cost I mentioned is to install a gas line from the furnace to the outside line (less than 25 ft) and install 3 additional T's for additional gas appliances in the future.

  • 9 years ago

    2nd proposal for a Trane GAS furnace and AC - ARI ref # 5867645 xr16 series AC 4TTR6042B1 3.5 ton. Gas Furnace xv 95 series - UH2B0809V4, Evap coil 4TXFH054CC3. XL 824 Thermostat, also includes perfect fit media filter. all required building permits, new properly sized refrigerant lines, all necessary gas piping, new vent pipe and cap, new condensate drain with trap, connect to existing ductwork, mastic seal and retape existing ductwork, new low voltage wiring to O/D. Remove existing equip, new pad, start up and inspect system for proper operation. 10yr parts warranty from Trane, 2 yrs labor from Dealer. Am I on the right track now? Am I missing anything? I still have not received the Carrier proposal. The Amer Std. Rep is out of town until next week.

  • 9 years ago

    On the right track. I would be interested in seeing what a Bryant/Carrier dealer quotes.

    IMO

  • 9 years ago

    Carrier Proposal - ARI Ref 6390208 Series 16 Puron AC 24ACC642A, CAP 4221AL, Furnace 59 P5A080E21. cooling 40,500, eer 12.5, seer 15. How does this match and compare to the Trane? How about performance and reliability? Thank you again for your input and the education in understanding HVAC specifics.

  • 9 years ago

    I would want the 59TP6 furnace mdl with var speed blower. More of an apples to apples comparison. You want the correct thermostat. Request price.

    IMO

  • 9 years ago

    Update, I've received 3 different Trane proposals. All three the same Furnace TUH2C100AV95, same AC 4TTR6042. One dealer was very accommodating in selecting XV 95 furnace and coil for a 80,000 BTU. Carrier Dealer said they do not carry the 59TP6 for the southern region. Came Back with a different proposal. Below are the Trane and Carrier systems. They are within $200 of each other.

    Trane XR 16 Series AC 4TTR6042 - Evap Coil TXFH054CC3 - XV 95 Furnace TUHB0809V4

    XL 824 Thermostat - Trane Perfect Fit Media filter

    Carrier Performance Series Puron AC 24ACC642 A - Evap Coil CAPMP 4221ALA - Infinity Furnace 59TN6A80V21 - TP - WEMO1 Thermostat. price subject to site visit.

    Price may go up with Carrier they did not come out to the house. Just wanted the specs Trane was quoting. Mailed the info to us. ARI Ref is 6390208. May not be accurate. The letter, proposal and AHRI model numbers were all different. We are experiencing a building boom in our area. I did like the Trane Rep whose proposal is listed above. Very interested in working with me, explained the HVAC components helped me to understand the difference in the 80,000 btu vs 100,000 btu. Also, has 2 years labor (the same as Carrier). Your thoughts and Again thank you for your help. Side Note: Price is going to come in around $9K after we add the extended warranty.

  • 9 years ago

    First you want the 80 K size furnace unless you just like higher operating costs.


    The second system is preferred. Should include matching Infinity thermostat.

    6390208 Active Systems CARRIER PERFORMANCE 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ACC642A**30 CAP**4221AL* 1255 59*P5A080E21**20 40500 12.50 15.00 1 RCU-A-CB 327


    6390233 Active Systems CARRIER PERFORMANCE 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ACC642A**30 CAP**4817AL* 1130 59*N*A080V17**14 40500 12.50 15.00 1 RCU-A-CB 327


    IMO

  • 9 years ago

    So comparing the Trane Vs Carrier, both with 80K furnace does one system have a better track record for quality and overall repairs. Overall longevity. We have decided not to purchase an extended warranty to cover labor.

  • 9 years ago

    The performance/efficiency numbers for the two systems are basically the same. Between the 2 you could flip a coin. See below.


    6390233 Active Systems CARRIER PERFORMANCE 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ACC642A**30 CAP**4817AL* 1130 59*N*A080V17**14 40500 12.50 15.00 1 RCU-A-CB 327


    5867645 Active Systems TRANE XR16 TRANE 4TTR6042B1 4TXFH054CC3 1190 *UH2B080A9V4 40500 12.50 15.00 1 RCU-A-CB 335


    So what helps make the decision. Look behind the above numbers to the following:


    1. Price and warranty.

    2. Intangible-which dealer was the most thorough and impressed you the most. Reputation of dealer in the market. Authorized dealer or not.

    3.scope of work and what is included in each quote.

    4.what thermostat? With the Carrier, you want the Infinity controller. With the Trane, I would want HW Prestige 2.0 that has dehumidify on demand.

    5. Has either dealer inspected your ductwork system? Usually an area overlooked..


    A lot of money so I know you want to get it right.


    IMO

  • 9 years ago

    Thank you for all your help. This has been a stressful process for me. My better half has major health issues so I have had to step up and try to educate myself and hopefully make a sound and informed decision. Again you have helped in many ways.

  • 9 years ago

    One other thought...check on any available manufacturer rebates...

  • 9 years ago

    Rebates are 0% financing or trade in rebate. No Utility rebates unless Hybrid. Question regarding Extended Warranty. Both dealers are offering 2 year labor, mfg 10 year limited warranty on parts. Should we purchase Extended Warranty? The Dealer 2 yr labor goes away. Second ? We are going to be selling our home due to spouse health. We can save $ if we go back to a heat pump. We've been told buyers are looking for gas. Your thoughts. Thank you

  • 9 years ago

    The manufacturer usually includes one year of labor warranty, so you are only getting a second year from the dealer. You should ask how much does it cost to add the second year.

    Your electric rate is low, and the gas rate is average. The heat pump costs would be comparable to the gas furnace. I would still think having a gas line in the house would be attractive to most buyers for cooking, and to heat water and dry clothes. This would be a good question for a local realtor to answer.

  • 9 years ago

    I agree that having nat gas heat for your home makes your home more attractive at time of placing it on the market. Trane use to underwrite their labor ext warranty through a third party. It was a good warranty unlike most of the third part warranties available that are problematic and just short of fraud in many instances. Be careful here. If you plan on selling your home, I see no need for an ext warranty. If you do decide on purchasing a warranty, you want to understand it along with exclusions and if it is transferable to your home's new owner.

    IMO

  • 9 years ago

    Thank you again. I was of the same feeling regarding going with gas. I flip back and forth with the extended warranty. I've asked for a sit down with the dealers to go over specifics of the warranty. Both of the dealers act like the extended warranty is a UFO. Much appreciation for your input.

  • 9 years ago

    Our long time HVAC Rep wants to offer us upgraded system for same price I was quoted for the system mentioned earlier in this thread ( states he is not fond of the horizontal coil application). Here is what he has proposed. AHRI REF 7504442 -3.5 ton AC XR16 4TTR6042B1,matching HE Indoor Coil 4PX*CU60AC3, XC95 Furnace *UHMC100ACV4 (modulating instead of 2 stage). Cooling Capacity BTU 42,500, EER 13.00 Seer 15.75. Includes, Perfect fit media filter, Comfort Link XL 850 Thermostat, includes 10 yr transferable parts and labor warranty. Your thoughts.


  • 9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That's a heck of a system.

    7504442 ActiveSystems TRANE XR16 TRANE 4TTR6042B1 4PX*CU60AC3. 1225 *UHMC100ACV4 42500 13.00 15.75 1RCU-A-CB 327

    I agree about the horizontal coil, too. Dealer has to oversize furnace but not a big deal considering it is a modulating model.

    IMO

  • 9 years ago

    Decision made. Thank you all for your patience and guidance. I could not have done this without your help. Your information and tips saved us $3K. We were able to negotiate an extended labor warranty and 1 yr service agreement with the package. I think they were tired of my relentless questions. Again much appreciation.

  • 9 years ago

    Good Luck....let us know how new system performs and make certain dealer sets up dehumidify on demand for AC cooling.