Denizenx - there's also the model my KD used with me - perhaps a combination of #2 & #4, or maybe more commonly used than either - I don't know.

My KD works for a cabinet company, and she charged me for a design. She told me that if I ended up buying cabinets from her, the design fee would be subtracted from the cabinet order.

Edited to add: The KD did come out & measure, and she did give me the designs as she modified them.

I used a variation of model #4, including home visit by the potential project manager for measurements and consultation, reviewing products in their showroom, developing a cabinet plan and layout, scheduling a couple of visits to stone yards and fabricators to select the countertop, referral to an appliance dealer that they suggested (he was very helpful even though I didn't buy any of the appliances from him) all taking time but without any charge to me. Of course, I didn't "own" the plan. It was developed on their time and expertise. I had no expectation that they would let me take it away with me unless and until we reached an agreement to proceed. I consider this a fair and reasonable business practice.

I also had the "variations" described by Carrie & Zwizzle. I paid a $700 up-front fee for the measuring and design work. Once I committed, the $700 was subtracted from my Project cost. Before committing (but after I paid the fee), I was allowed to take the design home - in fact, I also posted a copy of it here for critique. If I had not gone with this KD, I would not have gotten my $700 back. The other two places I worked with had no up-front fee, but one obviously didn't know how to listen (his preliminary design was nothing like we talked about and, looking back at it it was very dysfunctional!) The other KD was a contractor-turned-KD and he knew less than I did about kitchen design from the beginning (b/f I found this Forum).

Combo of zwizzle and buehel. I paid a little more but project is larger and all of that was credited back with signing contract. Everyone involved is on the same page and that helps with pre project anxiety.

I posted design pictures of each room around my house just to get used to the new layouts.

I've done combinations of each of these. My current project is #1 and #3. With a ruler and graph paper, I could have eliminated #1. Still, it's not my first rodeo, the space is irregular. I wanted a second set of experienced eyes, a second person measuring and I got a professional set of drawings that included an electrical plan and elevations that puts all of my tradesmen on the same page.

I also selected Scherr's RTA cabinets instead of Barker's or The Cabinet Joint. While Barker's would have worked, after I played with their website, I didn't trust myself to order everything I needed. Scherr's provided me with the service to translate my plans into a complete order. They also finished the cabinets. They would have done everything if I had a set of handmade drawings on graph paper with dimensions. And, their cabinets are truly custom. The website is kind of creaky, but Leon Scherr says it's being redesigned. (Based on my research, I think that all three companies provide a good product.) I estimate that I am saving 40% on the cost of my cabinets and it was worth it to me to try #1 and #3.

I understand your hesitancy to take the plunge. You just don't know who to trust and you want to get it right the first time. I would avoid the big box stores. You will do better at a smaller shop that sells a number of cabinet lines and use their designer. Or, you can do your own measurements, create a drawing, post it on GW/H and let us have a go at it. This way, when you walk in to do business, you will know what you want. You won't waste their time and you won't waste your time.

Okay, back after a busy weekend. I appreciate everyone's comments.

I get paying someone for all the work they're doing for you. (Not speaking to anyone in particular. By "you" I mean all of us). But for me, if I'm paying that money for the design, I'd want to be able to take that design and shop it around for cabinets. And I'd want the cabinet dealers to be willing to price out that design without charging me a design fee of their own.

The idea of choosing your designer with the assumption you're going to buy from them before you know their price is hard for me to wrap my head around. It'd be like paying a general contractor to give you an estimate on your construction. How many could you afford to do that with? Or imagine GC'ing the job yourself and having to pay every sub their own estimate fee.

I can only speak to what I'm comfortable with. There are many shops that don't charge a design fee. I've gotten designs from 2 so far, and I've come up with about 10 alternatives of my own, which can be seen in a couple of my "layout help" threads. I feel I'm honing in on one which I will ask for further GW refinement on. And then I will shop that design for price and service. Cab shops that insist on charging a design fee will not be in the equation.

My loss or theirs? I dunno, both I guess.

homechef, I'm following you Scherr's thread with interest. So in your estimation, Scherr's is the most customer friendly on the front end of things (getting a design and order together) between them, Barkers and Cabinet Joint?

I don't think I want to price them all out, but I do want to price RTA vs assembled. And maybe custom Amish.

My KD was a combo of #1 and #4. She charged $75/hour, $600 min for the design work, to be put towards cabinets if I buy from her. The design is mine to get bids from contractors and shop around for cabinets.

Denizenx, I didn't deal with The Cabinet Joint. They seem to have a good reputation. Their cabinets come from Conestoga. They also have YouTube videos online to review. They use brads, glue bottles and you need a compressor. While people have made cabinets this way for many years, I don't think it's do it yourself friendly. That glue bottle seems messy. It looks like Barker produces a great product. They even paint the cabinet colors that I needed. Chad Barker seems really available via email and his online chat room. But, there are things that just need to be discussed in a conversation. When you see how many parts it takes to put a kitchen together, I found the website to be daunting. It would have taken a lot of time and effort to put the order together and I'm still not sure I would have gotten it right.

I selected the manufacturer that was best for me. It was a leap of faith because there wasn't nearly as much about the process with Scherr's on GW as there was on Barker's or The Cabinet Joint. In my opinion, the translation of the rendering to an order was well worth the choice.

Here's what I did, I shopped 3 places: 2 design/cabinet places (different cabinet lines) who did personal home measuring and a basic "spec" & layout, but I had to commit $ for more specific design. I also got quotes from 2 GC's for the rest of the kitchen work (demo, elec/plumbing...) since I'd have to contract that separately. I also got a detailed quote from a local custom cabinet maker who will do the entire project soup to nuts. I also didn't get a specific plan until I put a deposit down, but I knew from visiting his shop he was able to do a nice design and the kicker: no more expensive than the other quotes all in.

What sold me to the local cabinet maker was: their reputation & length of time in business, being able to see the actual shop and see our cabinets being made, and one stop shopping, knowing I won't have to babysit all the moving pieces (GC & their subs, out of state cabinetry issues/design firm) to make sure they're all communicating/coordinating the process.

After I got my design degree from Parsons, I interviewed for several KD positions. The top requirement was using the computerized kitchen design software. They weren't interested in knowledge, design experience, ability to deliver a functional kitchen, my extensive food/cooking background or even design education. The focus was on selling cabinets and learning how to spec out the various cabinet lines and generate drawings. Even with a computer, it can take hours.

There was paranoia about me coming into a business, learning it and then going off on my own because I was a mature person with past business experience. The pay was hilarious but that wasn't an issue.

In some ways, kitchen cabinets are a bit of a racket. Let me emphasize in some ways. That doesn't mean there aren't excellent designers with great taste working in the field -- like Kompy and others -- or even interior designers who can design and oversee the installation of a beautiful, functional kitchen.

It means that the mid-range customer -- who like the OP wants to shop the design -- is charged for the design time put into a project to protect the seller. It's not organized for the customer's benefit. It's organized to make a profit for the business because generating the layouts takes time and expertise.

Anyone who can do the visuals on their own is way ahead. But it's a steep learning curve and not everyone is interested or able to do it. If you have a plan reasonably done, it should be possible to get a cabinet estimate based on that plan with no fee. But the measurements and architectural aspects would need to be well worked out for the estimate to be meaningful.

denizen-Part of what you are running into is that you are shopping for something other than what people like me consider our service. It sounds like you are shopping for cabinet boxes. I consider our service to be a bit more than that, we supply kitchens (no matter who installs them) Yeah we do make our profit by selling cabinets, That has become the most popular model with consumers, very few are willing to pay what would be a real design fee.

If you are shopping for a design and not cabinets then you really have to shop for a designer. No one is going to produce a design, or series of them, just to see if you may decide you will pay them.

Since you say you are on a budget, and it sounds like you want some design service then it may be that finding the right variations to #4 would suit you. In that case take LWO advice and shop for a designer.

There many variations to your #4. I work using a one. We go a bit beyond average to begin with BUT many will give you an estimate based on your plan as it stands now. That at least allows you to determine if they can fit your budget before paying anything. Most won't come out and measure, most won't do much design work but many will discuss things with you.

We do give estimates first before accepting a retainer, and most often measure. It's a retainer, not a design fee and is credited toward a purchase. Once a retainer is paid we do hand out drawings but our retainer runs to 12% of the cabinet cost with a minimum of $1000. And yes plenty of folks out there understand this model and have no problem with it. Over the years I have had only 2 people walk away from a retainer- one completely dropped the project because they moved out of state and the other ended up using entirely found furniture.

When I first started on my own we seriously thought we would be doing design only work as well. It quickly became apparent that has more problems than it is worth for us. I now only do "design only" work for a few interior designers and an architect.

roccocogirl-I went to Parson's 20 years before I came to kitchens. Great school, useful background- but doesn't a KD make. I'd been a designer before I went to school (not kitchens) . After I did more more design work, built a lot of things, a little work in construction, built cabinets, taught myself CAD, designed a few workshops and sections of factories, and had a business (and yeah I've been cooking for over 50 yrs). When I was hired by a real kitchen outfit I'd had one year at a box store. (At the interview they noted that wasn't much kitchen experience, despite my background. I agreed that it wasn't. It is a business after all. They weren't worried about me going off and starting a business, (I only did because I was downsized.)

At that first job It took me a solid 6 months to learn the first spec book. It still take that long with a new brand. It was two years before I made a half decent salary. It was a good 5 years before I was comfortably good making a living wage, 10 to get really good. In the meantime I had to learn how to deal with the public.

The first designer I hired could barely use a computer and had no degree but was one of the best I've met, She'd been in the business for 30 yrs and could draw. I was training her on the software, It was going to take at least another year for us to make a profit on her work (a primary purpose of having employees) but she added much while with us. I miss her terribly.

@jakuval - Exactly. It is far more demanding than many realize. So I felt I should share my experience because folks here often don't understand what it takes to do the very detailed work that includes drawings or how long it takes to master.

Fortunately, I had a superior architectural drawings teacher and I'm a really fast study. I did the architectural drawings for my own apartment remodel including the kitchen, they were approved without even a notation by the building architect, and the reno went off without a hitch.

At one point I did a little stage with a KD who needed help. She handed me a book from a cabinet company and asked me to do a drawing. It was then I learned that you really need to learn each cabinet line and know what they offer and how the line goes together. But even from that initial experience it made perfect sense,

I was in one of the toughest markets in the country. Although I was offered several jobs, they all required commuting somewhere and the salary wasn't enough to warrant that wear and tear. There was one job I should have taken with a young company doing LEED/minimalist kitchens in retrospect but it didn't feel like a great fit at the time since I was able to take private clients, have flexibility and make more working part-time than full time. I can see how it would take such a long time to make a living at it, for sure.

Guess the best defense for someone is to shop it as thoroughly as possible and try to find someone who listens, can add ideas that the client says she wants, and work with clients as you say. It isn't very easy, to be sure. Heck it isn't always easy here. I see decisions trending -- and even being encouraged -- that aren't going to have good results but the person wants what they want for some reason. I believe everyone should get what they want but, of course, if it doesn't work out it's not the clients fault. LOL

I appreciate everyone's input. And live_wire, rococogurl and jakuval have done a superb job of representing the designer/dealers perspective.

I have to say, I think I'm being misconstrued a bit if it sounds like I'm shopping on price alone. But even if I limit myself solely to "free design" shops, the one I go with will be the one that gives me the most confidence they can take care of me across a number of factors. I have to trust the designer, like their ideas, have an iota of rapport with them, feel they are motivated by design and for my project, and can meet my budget. The one I'd go to contract with would not at all be decided by a few $100's on the bottom line. It would be decided on who I felt comfortable with; who I thought brought the most creativity, function and style to the table; and who I simply wanted to see things through with and trust would be the ones I'd want to refer my friends to.

I simply feel that the paid design model limits my ability to get such a sense of these people. I don't want to judge them on their reputations or their portfolios of projects that more than likely don't relate to mine in the least. I simply don't know how to get a good measure of them without seeing how they work. And since there are shops out there that allow for that, I will naturally gravitate to them. And those shops that keep their design under lock until a contract is signed... it's an additional deterrent I simply cannot bear.

FWIW, I'm also not opposed to paying a few hundred bucks for a design to shop around - I'm opposed to paying it for a design I can't shop around. I'm also opposed to shops who'd charge a design fee even if I come in with a design in hand. It's fine if anyone disagrees with these sentiments, I just wanted to be a little more clear on where I stood.

springer3, sounds like you really found a great solution.

I don't feel there's anything wrong with shopping just for price. It's a big number no matter how small the kitchen.

You can disagree or agree with how the business is set up. It's simply a matter of finding one KD to connect with at a shop where the policies suit you. I can tell you from experience that sometimes the things one worries about most never happen.

Hey all! I will weigh in from the Cabinetjoint.com's perspective as our name has turned up a couple times in this thread. We use an approach that has the customer pay for the design fee up front, but THEY own the drawings the second the design bill is paid. Most kitchen plans are $300 or less. We use a VERY high end designer (not a poorly trained non-kitchen designer using 'drag and drop', inflexible cabinet design programs). Her focus for 20 years of her career was 100K plus kitchens in the Jersey and NYC metro mart, so she is very well versed in all aspects of the design. Once the customer commits to the project with us (IE: buys the cabinets), the design fees they paid are deducted from the project price, so they end up paying nothing. We feel this is the best approach because, face it, no one wants to give away their work, but once a customer pays for the design, its really theirs and we have no right to keep it. We send it to them in PDF format so they can readily print and share the design with friends, competitors, whoever.

As for the cabinets themselves, someone in the thread mentioned they look messy and hard to put together. Actually, 95% of our clientele are homeowners with little or no woodworking skills/background. The cabinets are in fact a little more demanding to assemble than, say, the Chinese imported RTA cabinets as they use a really well designed sliding dovetail to hold the cabinet together instead of twist lock fasteners. However, what really sets Conestoga's apart is the huge offering and all the custom modifications you can do. Hundreds of door styles, thousands of finishes including almost the entire Sherwin Williams paint collection, 16 wood species, custom cabinet sizes to 1/16th of an inch at NO extra charge, high end options like integrated door end panels, wainscot panels, and more. Its really a terrific line and opens up a huge array of design capability for a homeowner willing to put in the work to understand it.

Anyway, back on topic here...as for designs, you get what you pay for. If you go to Lowes, they typically are going to give you a basic design done by a designer who, typically, is not as versed as someone who calls this their 'career'. Because the quality of your kitchen will ultimately flow from a good, well articulated space plan, I can't overstate the need for a good design right at the start. It eliminates ordering errors, alleviates horrific 'poor-planning' issues like too-narrow isles or dishwashers that open in to your legs, it helps your installer understand the 'vision' he is supposed to create. Most importantly, it gives you the visual you need to be certain you are getting just the kitchen you want.

All I will say is If someone tries to charge you for designs you cant take with you once you paid the design fee, I would want to be sure as to why this is necessary. But, everyone has a right to their own method of doing business and in fact, it varies from market to market. Not every model works for every business.

Just my two cents...put your plan on GW, get it tweaked to the point that you REALLY like it. Then shop cabinets, take plan to cabinetmaker/KD and show this to them.

Tell them THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT and let them take your vision and make it work with their cabinetry. Then you're paying to make sure everything fits in your space, not for the plan itself.

FWIW, the very first kitchen shop I walked in to wanted $1500 for a design . . . and, get this, they would NOT support the design at all (even for additional hourly fees) if I didn't buy the cabinets from them, too. So, I had to put up $1500 just to essentially get a bid . . . as my design was already largely done since the build was well underway . . . I would have been fine with paying a design fee IF they'd have been willing to support it (at additional hourly or change fees) wherever I got my cabinets made and whoever installed them. But, to require $1500 for a design that could only realistically be used with THEM . . . Well, that seemed like a huge leap of faith.

Anyway, I really liked the designer, and I liked the shop . . . but the idea of putting out $1500 and then finding out that, hey, their cabinets are $50,000, but down the road, the same would be $30,000. . . It just required a heck of a lot of trust from me.

So, I ended up walking in to another cabinet shop. Who was happy to sit down with me without requiring any commitment or money for the design. And spent $50,000 on my (lovely) custom kitchen cabinets there, another $20,000 on my windows, another $20,000 on 3500 sf of hardwood flooring . . . and another $8000 in misc cabinets for two master bathrooms and my Mom's kitchenette. They were nice about me going with another vendor for most of my countertops, and they were nice about me having my builder's guys install the floor . . . and my builder's guys install the cabinets . . . They ended up making $100,000 in sales because of that "free" design. I'd say they made their profit margin OK. They've also gotten some good word of mouth . . .

The original kitchen/bath shop got about $8000 in waterproofing work for two showers. That's it. I liked them. Love their tile guys. And, I've willingly paid their consult fees and design fees for the waterproofing work they did . . . But, I know for a fact (my builder/GC is buddies with their head tile guy) that they've been kicking themselves about how they lost that big kitchen job . . . IMHO, it's a bad business model choice.