So all these pictures are no longer the actual plan? Can you post the changes to fridge, prep sink location, etc....or do any of these reflect those changes?

Moving the prep sink is a good idea, but I would not put stools on three sides of the island. Are you thinking three stools on two sides of the island? That still seems too cramped.

Maybe something like this?

The first photo is only meant to show how the kitchen relates to the rest of the house and show the location of the pantry and wet bar. The other pictures are correct with the exception of slightly moving the prep sink so it's more directly across from the range.

What are your aisle widths? I could probably do a bunch of subtracting and figure it out but don't want to. ;)

The upper cabinets - what are the plans for the lower portions of them and how tall are they? It looks like the top portion of that configuration has 3 doors but the bottom portion is 2 doors? At 15" deep and with doors that will be 24" (47 1/2" / 2), (I think that's what it will be) those doors will be opening into your wife's face or she will be taking a giant step back.

Is this fridge going to be counter-depth or regular. If you haven't used a side-by-side before do carefully look at how much stuff and the sizes of things that are in your freezer now and put that against 18" wide- measure out 18". With 3 little ones that isn't much width. The overall cu.ft. might be ok but it's the ease of use that's important.

Do you have a trash -pullout beside your prep sink? I can't tell but that's important. Is that a long narrow prep sink? Interesting. How deep is it?

If the window can be enlarged, I'd do that.

I couldn't read the figures on layouts, so don't know the sizes specified for cabinets. In some pics the cabs to L and R of sink show 3 doors (upper). I've always found skinny doors more difficult to put things in and take things out. It also increases number of doors to be opened and closed when looking for or accessing items. Depending on the width of each I'd probably stick to 2 doors.

The easy reach for the upper corners are awesome. Check them out. I also would also 'kill' one of the lower corner cabs and go with drawers on either side or straight out corner drawers. Go with the ss, a LS is a pain.

Offset the prep sink to the stove. If someone wants a drink or to wash hands it will keep them out of the cooking space.

Are you tall people? Will you be able to easily reach cabs over the horizontal ones? other family members?

More drawers unless a specific reason regular cab doors are needed.

If this was my kitchen, I'd want direct access to the pantry from the kitchen. To do this, I'd slide the stove closer to their dining area with a patch of counter on either side of it. Then I'd get rid of the corner cabinet so that I could put a door from the kitchen to the pantry. If you google "Chinese Grandma kitchen reveal" you'll see a nice kitchen with a similar setup in her old kitchen.

If you'd be ok with lengthening the kitchen wall by the stairs, look into putting the range on the stair wall. Then put the fridge (maybe even the 48"?), on the pantry wall with a doorway to the pantry on the inside corner, similar to Chinese grandma's. This will make it more convenient for grabbing all of your cooking supplies from the fridge and the pantry at the same time and general location.

I'd still keep the door to the pantry in the hall, too, for easy grocery unloading.

Lavender,

Why are you against stools on 3 sides of the island? I liked that idea because I didn't want a long line of stools on one side because it's difficult to communicate with people that aren't sitting next to you.

Annkh,

Yes, that is a pantry between the kitchen and garage. The dimensions of the pantry are 13'x6'. The wall shared with the garage will have shelves that are 12" deep while the wall shared with the kitchen will have a countertop with open shelving above and below the counter. We will have a sink, trash can, and bins that slide for potatoes, etc in the pantry. Thanks for the suggestions on the super susan. I will making this change with our kitchen designer. We too prefer drawers instead of base cabinets and will try to minimize the need for base cabinets. Thanks for the note on storing everything close to where it will be used.

blfenton,

I'll save you from the math - our aisle widths are 44". Does that seem appropriate? The island is shown at 48" wide. My wife's thoughts for the lower part of the upper cabinets are something like this ...

Mediterranean Estate Home · More Info

We are still debating the configuration for the number/width of cabinets for the top and lower portions of the upper cabinets. The fridge will be counter depth. We also will have a deep freezer (either in pantry or garage) for additional freezer items. The pull-out trash can is shown to the left of the main sink. Do you think this will be close enough to the prep sink? Yes, my wife has looked at long, narrow prep sinks like the one pictured below, but she hasn't chosen a particular sink yet.

Trickett Kitchen · More Info

desertsteph,

I like the idea of making that window a little wider. We could then make the top portion of the upper cabinets 2 doors (instead of 3) and the lower portion of the upper cabinet 1 wide cabinet that opens horizontally. I'll discuss easy reach for upper corners with our kitchen designer - thanks for the tip. When you say corner drawers, do you mean something like this ...

Shaker Grey · More Info

Drinking water will come from a filtered tap at the wet bar. My wife is 5'4" - I'll check to make sure she can reach the top portion of the upper cabinets as currently configured. We will try to minimize the need for regular cabinet doors - agree that drawers are much better.

laughable,

Interesting idea for the pantry and agree that it would be nice to directly access the pantry. We're trying to keep the refrigerator wall as short as possible because we prefer more of an L shape kitchen instead of a U shape. Our range was placed on that wall because it seemed to be a better focus point from the living room than the refrigerator. I will definitely check out the Chinese grandma, but am unsure if your idea will work for us.

Thanks to all for the feedback and keep it coming!

You've already received many good tips so I'll just say that you need to move the DW to the other side of the sink. This way someone can be loading/unloading the DW without being in the cooking space. You can thank me later. :)

I would not want people sitting on stools, between the range and prep area. Just easier to NOT have to work around kids/visitors, while trying to cook dinner.

Have you read the "Read Me" thread and the design-related Kitchens FAQs? They will explain some of the comments you're getting. For example, regarding seating on the island with counters/cabinets/appliances/walkway behind the seaters:

• Walkways....In a seating area, 36" of clearance from counter/table edge to wall/obstruction if no traffic passes behind seated diners. 65" of total clearance when this includes a walkway (i.e., traffic). [From the NKBA Kitchen Planning Guidelines With Access Standards]

Note the amount of room you should have b/w the island and counters behind it for seating on the range side - 65". While I think you can probably get away with 60", 44" is nowhere near enough - ESPECIALLY when you consider it's the range/Cooking Zone you're placing those visitors. (Note: Aisles are measured counter edge-to-counter edge of both the perimeter counters and the island counters. I think that's how you're measuring based on an earlier statement, but I want to be sure - and let others know as well how aisles are measured.)

For the range/Cooking Zone side, this is a safety issue.

Are the house and general room dimensions fixed? Can you make any substantive changes? For example, can you make your kitchen wider by about 30"? If not 30", what about 15"? Maybe take it out of the garage - that's a very large garage.

Kitchen Design-related FAQs:

Layout Help: http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767033/how-do-i-ask-for-layout-help-and-what-information?n=2

Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, etc.: http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767035/aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs?n=2

Work Zones, what are they?: http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767031/kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

Kitchen Storage: http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767036/how-do-i-plan-for-storage-types-of-storage

Regarding corner susans: they're great for small appliances and pots & pans if you don't have room for them or don't want them in drawers. In our old kitchen all our pots & pans, colanders, and larger serving pieces fit in our corner lazy susan (lazy=pole in the middle; super=no pole in the middle). In your case, you could store your pots & pans in the corner next to the range and small appliances in the one next to the refrigerator. That said, I do prefer drawers for pots & pans - which is what we have today in our "new" kitchen.

Drawers vs roll out tray shelves (ROTS): See the following thread:

Drawers or doors with pull outs?: http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2664194/drawers-or-doors-with-pull-outs

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Another point...IF you plan to prep in the island on the range side of the island, then your island is currently a "barrier island" b/w the refrigerator and the Prep Zone. A "barrier island" is an island that is in the path b/w two items - in this case, b/w your refrigerator & Prep Zone. Why is a "barrier island" an issue? To go to/from the refrigerator from the Prep Zone, you have to "run around the island". Believe me, that running around the island gets old very quickly!

The refrigerator is a crucial part of the Prep Zone and, to some extent, the Cooking Zone. As it stands, I don't like the fact that not only is the island a barrier, but the refrigerator is also on the opposite side of the kitchen from both the Prep and Cooking Zones. To get to the Prep and/or Cooking Zone, you have to cross the Cleanup Zone....which means you'll be doing quite a bit of "zone crossing" - something one usually tries to avoid in a good layout.

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The bottom line is that your wife has valid reasons for being concerned about this design - kudos to her for realizing it now!

Have you and your wife used a trough style sink? (I haven't.) While they rank high in cool looks, they also look difficult, to me anyway, to use for things like washing veggies, using a salad spinner, dumping and rinsing pasta, basically most of the tasks that you'd want a prep sink for. Also, we often will have one person using the cleanup sink while filling the DW while another person will wash up some pots and pans at the prep sink, but the trough sink looks too narrow to put a large pot in.

I'm wondering what the best use of a trough sink is, maybe to fill with ice for chilling drinks?

Having stools as you have arranged around the island won't work. Look around your dinner table tonight. You need room around the table just to pull out a chair and sit down, you need room just to sit and then you need room behind the chair for people to walk behind. That kind of movement needs a minimum of at least 36" and then if you have a cooking appliance behind it more room is required.

The narrow height cabinets that you have shown - will they have the lift-up door or normal opening doors. You mentioned your wife's height - will she be able to reach to close a lift-up door? I'm asking because the way the elevations are drawn it looks like the lower portions are split down the middle and so indicating normal doors.

On either side of the range = how much space do you actually have for uppers, 47 1/2" is a funny measurement. and how about either side of the sink. I don't like the way the upper cabinets are set up. The visual-weight of them is unappealing.

And how much room on either side of the window is going for cabinets?

Someone suggested moving the DW to the other side of the sink which is a good idea. It keeps the washing and clearing up function away from the cooking area. It's important to keep those functions in separate areas. It allows your little ones to clear the table and walk to the left of the island and so keeping them away from the stove. Leftovers can be cleared in that same area and dirty dishes go straight into the DW while leftovers go straight into the fridge.

It's more functional to have a trash right beside the prep area/prep sink. Having said that, where does she envision doing her prep work - across from the stove or beside the sink. Lots of people, me included, have trash in both places.

I do wonder about the usefulness of a trough sink as a prep sink. It doesn't look like you can set a sieve or a pot in there. or rinse a bunch of vegetables. I also think of those as maybe being ok in a wet bar area. While they are very cool looking, I'm not sure how useful they would be.

It may sound like we're being picky, but I'm assuming that you're in this house for a long time and with the 3 little ones you want the kitchen to be a safe and easy functional place for the whole family.

Put the range where you have the sink and flank it with 2 windows. Put the fridge on the pantry wall and the sink on the other wall. Give up on having that much seating at the island unless you make the center of the U a LOT bigger. And get a sensible prep sink, not a trough sink.

Rethink this odd door layout. If you want to do the horizontal lift up cabinets, their placement needs more thought. There is not enough emphasis on horizontality, as in stack several of them to achieve the height needed. Or, there isn't eough randomness of placement, as in their position should be mixed through the uppers, possibly using a bright accent color or striking wood like zebra.

Here's an idea.

1. It gives you room for 5 seats at the island with no seats in a work aisle so no trying to maneuver around visitors while prepping/cooking or cleaning up.

2. The aisles are wide enough for multiple people to be working in the kitchen (crucial when the little ones begin helping!) but not so wide that you're hiking across a chasm.

3. There's plenty of workspace with no wasted counterspace. In fact, you have 4 possible Prep Zones - the primary one is on the island with the prep sink and across from the range. The secondary is the counter b/w the sink and range...this could actually be a primary if you prefer working there. The other two are tertiary - meaning I don't think they'll get used for prepping unless the other Prep Zones are already in use.

4. The Cleaning Zone is separated from the Prep and Cooking Zones - yes, this is a plus!

5. There is no zone-crossing as the layout follows the normal kitchen workflow: Refrigerator --> Prep Zone --> Cooking Zone.

6. The refrigerator is on the periphery so it's accessible from both inside and outside the kitchen without outsiders getting in the way of those prepping and cooking.

7. MW Drawer:

.....a. In the first layout, the MW drawer faces the sink wall so it's not too far from the Prep & Cooking Zones. It also then gives you space for a bookcase in the island for cookbooks. However, someone using the MW will be in the way of someone cleaning up - so it's not perfect.

.....b. In the alternate layout, the MW faces the wall so it doesn't interfere with the Cleanup Zone. As with the refrigerator, it's on the periphery with the same comment as the refrigerator. However, it's a bit far from the Prep & Cooking Zones - so this location is also not perfect.

8. The window is counter-height (36" off the finished floor) and is bumped out 9". It gives you plenty of space behind the sink for faucet, cleaning behind the faucet, etc. and gives you a buffer zone to minimize window splashing. You might even be able to have plants or an herb garden in the window. [I don't know if the 9" bump out will work with the front elevation, though.]

9. The sink run is 3" deeper than normal to give you more counterspace depth as well as allows deeper cabinets (see next comment).

10. Dish storage is in 30" cabinets to the right of the DW. I like dish hutches, so I made it a Dish Hutch. With a Hutch, the upper cabinet goes down to the counter and the base cabinet is drawers. Use materials, door/drawer styles, and finishes to give it an urban look (the look you appear to be going for).

11. The location of the dish storage is such that someone setting the table will not need to cut through the primary work zones and so unloading the DW is easy - the cabinets/drawers are right there!

So....that's it for now. I had thought of putting the range on the top wall and flanking it with windows as others have suggested, but I unfortunately I do not have time right now to draw it up. Perhaps someone else will!

Now the pictures!

Layout #1 - MW drawer facing the sink wall:

[Link to picture]

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Zone Map:

[Link to picture]

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Alternate Layout 1 - MW drawer facing the side wall:

[Link to picture]

funkycamper,

Would switching the locations of the trash can and DW (moving DW to left of sink and trash to right of sink) solve issues with overlapping the cook and cleanup zones? Thanks in advance!

lavender,

I now see why you were concerned about island seating on 3 sides. While the 2 seats on the range side won't be directly across from the range (we had our kitchen designer start the range past the location of the 2 barstools on that side), the 2 stools will still be close to the range and I can see how it would be difficult to walk behind people sitting at the island with the way it is currently designed.

buehl,

I was hoping that you would chime in as I have liked a lot of your thoughts in other posts. Thank you for the links. I will be sure to read all of them. Yes, my measurements for aisle widths are measured from counter edge to counter edge. You're right ... our garage is large - we could steal a foot from the garage and steal a couple inches from the aisle on the refrigerator side to make the aisle 58" wide. My wife is really set on at least 6 bar stools and we would like to prevent a long line of stools on one side. The range is positioned close enough to the sink where the 2 bar stools won't be across from the range, but I see your point about it still being close and there still being issues walking behind people sitting at the island. We also prefer drawers for pots and pans. We will locate pots and pans in drawers near the range. Would you keep the prep sink where it is currently shown? Keeping it where it is now would allow access to the sink from either side of the island. That would solve the barrier between the refrigerator and prep zone, but there would still be a barrier between the refrigerator and range. Would moving the range farther down that wall (closer to main sink) be a good idea to minimize the barrier issue between the refrigerator and range?

laughable,

No, neither my wife nor I have used a trough sink. I think my wife was thinking of a trough sink because it looks cool and she thought she would get a cutting board that could fit into the sink. I agree that we will need the prep sink to be big enough for the tasks you mentioned and holding a large pot. We will definitely reconsider the size of the sink. We won't need to fill with ice due to the ice drawer in the wet bar.

blfenton,

I now see that we will definitely need to add some space if we want to keep stools between the island and the counter with the range. Thanks to all of you for pointing that out before it was too late! As shown now, the lower portion of the upper cabinets will open horizontally and the top portion of the upper cabinets will open like traditional cabinets. Based on feedback received in this thread, we will likely have two doors for the top portion of upper cabinets on each side of the sink and each side of the range. For the bottom portion of the upper cabinets, would it be better to have 1 wide horizontal cabinet or 2 horizontal cabinets that line up with the 2 cabinets for the top portion of the upper cabinets? This picture should help convey the question I'm trying to ask ...

Either way, my wife likes the idea of these cabinets opening horizontally but we would be open to other ideas if it is a bad idea or doesn't look right. She would be able to reach the lower portion of the upper cabinets that open horizontally to close. The top portion will open traditionally - I'll check to make sure she will be able to comfortably close these doors. The space that we dedicate to upper cabinets on each side of the sink and each side of the range can be adjusted if needed. We could always make that window wider or the opening for the range wider. Can you please elaborate on what you mean when you say the visual weight of the upper cabinets is unappealing? I'm new to this whole thing so please excuse my ignorance, but we want to make sure we get this right. How would you design the upper cabinets (we're certainly not tied to the current configuration)? We will move the DW to the other side of the sink. I will definitely talk to my wife about the trough sink as she didn't have strong reasons for choosing that sink other than it looked cool. Please don't apologize for sounding picky. This constructive criticism is exactly what we're looking for. PLEASE PLEASE continue to critique our kitchen design!

Sophie,

Can you please elaborate on your comments about the horizontal cabinets? My wife and I are new to this. She saw some horizontal cabinets on Houzz and thought they looked cool/modern, but we are definitely open to other ideas. Our concern with stacking horizontally opening cabinets in the upper cabinets is not being able to reach the second row of the horizontally opening cabinets. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. We would greatly appreciate any sketches for other ideas on cabinet configuration or something that incorporates the randomness of placement that you mentioned.

kevin - yes, that is what I meant by corner drawers. A few on here have them.

Check out the Blanco précis 520853 sink for your prep area. Amazon just started carrying it. It has a nice looking small integrated drain board that'd be great for setting wet veggies on. It might work well for you. There are many other sinks that could have a board set into them depending on the sink installation you choose.

Yes, moving the DW to the left would resolve those issues in your current plan. However, your current plan isn't very good. Did you pay a KD to design that? Yikes!

At minimum, switch cooktop and main sink locations. But I really hope you listen to all the advice you've received and consider those layouts by Buehl which are much, much better.

You could have the most beautiful kitchen in the world but if it's dysfunctional, you'll grow to hate it. Best to focus on function now and get that right before you start thinking about style.

Why seat six at the island when the dining room table is so close? As others have said, only do this if you increase the size of your interior U.

Be careful of the "cool" effect - not all "cool" things are functional.

If you like the trough sink, be aware that it takes up a lot of room - room that would be better served as actual prep workspace. Also, be sure the sink is at least 15" to 18" front-to-back to have room for your hands + item being prepped + tool(s) used for prepping (e.g., knife) + room for "action" (scrubbing, colander for draining pasta, etc.).

As FunkyCamper alluded to, it is far easier to make a functional kitchen look nice (and "cool") than it is to make a nice but dysfunctional kitchen work well for actual working in the kitchen. Please consider redoing this design so it works well and that you and your wife (& rest of the family) will love for years to come!

I redid my kitchen in 2008 and I still do the "happy dance" in it occasionally - and that's thanks to the wonderful folks here who stuck with me and patiently showed me the major flaws in my original (and many later iterations) layout. It took a bit of time, but I finally landed on a layout that was very, very different than what I started with - thank goodness!

Just to echo Buehl, when I first presented my plan here for review, I fully expected people to applaud me for doing such a great job. Well, that didn't happen, lol, quite the opposite. I was a bit peeved at first but then realized how helpful and well-intended the advice was and that's really what I came here for anyway. Lots of small suggestions combined with a couple major ones yielded changes that will be both more aesthetically pleasing and provide for both more storage and working counter space that I would not have had. I expect I'll be doing a happy dance when my remodel is done as well.

In the end, all this work to get it right the first time will be worth it.

" your current plan isn't very good. Did you pay a KD to design that?"

I see that often - even on the Bros show and Fix it up (chip/Joanna). Just this last wk one or the other had a barrier island between the sink and fridge.

Too bad some of the amazing folks here like buehl, Jillius, laughablemoments, lisa_a, and numerous other ones I'm forgetting to name aren't doing a show, right?

I love buele's layout #1. It is fabulous.

I really don't like the seating on the three sides of your island. The space issue has already been addressed, but, also, I can't fathom anyone wanting to sit there on that interior side while anyone is working in the kitchen. They'd have their back to the chef/dishwasher/pretty much everyone whose entertaining them! Ick. Not pleasant for any of you. I really think you should let go of the 3 sides of the island seating. What you're doing, I think, is plopping a permanent kitchen table in the middle of your kitchen. I don't think you'd like it.

You're getting great help with your kitchen....now you might want to show the plan to the Building a Home forum...and get more help.

The master bedroom is a bit unusual (very long) and I don't think that closet or laundry area will be what you anticipate. The closet will be cramped with clothes in there...and the pantry is long and narrow, too.

Hey, it's free help, right??? :)

Sorry I hadn't responded in a day or so. My wife and I have been busy discussing changes to this kitchen! My wife is reluctant to give up that 6th bar stool, but we're both willing to make changes to our kitchen to make it right.

buehl,

Thank you very much for taking time to sketch out some options for us. Very helpful. I would love to get your thoughts on the picture below. It's basically a flipped version of your layout while maintaining the same size of the shell of the kitchen. I flipped your layout because we are trying to have an open feel for the kitchen and want to minimize the U shape. I think this new design maintains many of the advantages of the layouts you proposed, but now that we still need help arranging the different types/sizes of cabinets within our space.

laughable and others,

We will rethink the trough sink. I like the sink that laughable mentioned and will be looking for something like that.

We would love to get some opinions on this design. Sorry for some of the chicken scratchings on the paper. My son got ahold of it and I wasn't able to erase everything. We appreciate all of your help thus far.

This U shaped kitchen is pretty shallow on the interior of the U. So, what about eliminating the island and doing a U that one of the legs is a peninsula. Take your latest iteration above, and remove the island. Take down the wall behind the other wall, and scoot that leg inwards.

I'll also mention that a 48" range is disproportionate to the space that you have. Same thing with the fridge freezer combo. You really need a larger space for those sizes of appliances if you want maximum function. The architecture itself is designed for standard sized appliances. I understand wanting what you want, but really take a look at the whole home, and the proportion of the kitchen to the home as well.