Mike, If you read my post again, you will see that I stated that the leaves at the bottom of the pond would be at the same temperature as that of the water surrounding them. I did not mention any specific water temperatures. As in any decomposition of plant material, there will be some heat generated, but the heat produced at the bottom of a pond in winter from an inch deep lining of leaves, I'm sure, would be minimal and have little effect in warming the surrounding water. Maybe six inches or a foot deep bed of decomposing plant material could possibly generate a bit more chemical reaction to cause heat. I'd leave that [no pun intended] to the scientists among us to determine and qualify. The temperature readings in the top middle or bottom of a pond, I believe, would be more dependant on the depth of the pond, the soil structure surrounding the pond and whether the water within the pond is kept still or is being circulated or aerated. Other factors, I would say should be considered are, the pond's physical and climate zone location. Whether it is sheltered from the winds or not, above or below ground and the use of supplementary heating would all be factors. In the post about running a pond in winter, there is evidence given by several people, living in a particular climate zone number [albeit hundreds of miles apart] relating to the different ways in which, their individual ponds react during winter. You may remember reading about the temperature tests done by David [DRH] in 2001, over the months of January, February and March, in his own pond in Vermont. These tests showed very little difference [less than two degrees] between the top, center and bottom temperatures of the pond water. He used three separate probes and a multi-point temperature recorder, that printed out a graph showing all the temperatures that were taken at various times of the day. All of these recorded temperature were in the low 30's [F] and nothing near the bottom temperatures that you recorded in your tests in your natural type pond. My point is and I'm sure you will agree, that each pond is uniquely different, due to it's individual location, size, depth, water texture and upkeep. Then add in the whims and fancies of nature and weather. I would say, that whether it be in summer, fall, spring or winter, there are going to be variables concerning every facet, within each pond. "Horton"

Now, I wanted to talk about temperature for the Strawberry Winter Trials. It is something I thought a lot about before deciding I had a chance. The question was basically, "How far north can we go and successfully have an expectation of reasonable production of strawberries in an outdoor hydroponic system?" But that became more complicated than just drawing USDA zone lines, and I settled for, Will it work on coastal NE FL? To answer that, first had to understand the needs of strawberry plants... Generally it is 50 F - 80 F, with cool nights being ok...but what happens if the res gets near freezing? Nope, no problem a heater wouldn't solve in the reservoir. The problem is keeping enough photosynthesis going. There is a commercial strawberry industry in Florida, which is centered on Plant City, southern zone 9b and even spilling into zone 10. I'm barely 9a and can ride a bicycle to zone 8b at my leisure. So - I thought better just compare what the commercial industry has with what's here: The result: They are several degrees warmer for their average mid winter temperatures, but if I look at their records, we have a lower variability, actually when looking at record lows, we haven't gotten as low. That's good. The only significant risk was actually the average highs from the end of December to the first week of February. They run about 8-10 degrees warmer, 62 vs. 72 F or so. Now I can see where they get that spurt of winter growth to beat out the California crop - an Ah Ha! moment, since California is generally milder, but at a higher latitude. It fits together. So the question will be whether my mid Dec to mid Jan temperatures is warm enough to keep it going, and maybe I'll just be delayed a month in sync with California (and Maybe I should have chosen the 'Chandler' variety). This is a good bet though - since their extreme temperatures fall reasonably within my weather. But Brunswick Georgia is about as far as I would be enthusiastic. Yes. I should have chosen 'Chandler'. However, 'Sweet Charlie' is a proud Gator (Univ. FL) may have some ability to resist Florida pests and humidity, unlike 'Chandler' which is a California variety, and possibly the most succulent. Here is the temperature profile comparing prime 'Chandler' country in Saticoy, CA vs. NE FL, with the same color scheme as the previous graph where Saticoy's data and colors replace Plant City, FL. You can see where that California mildness comes in, but my area is closer to Saticoy through the early Spring than it is to Plant City Florida. NE FL and Saticoy lows are similar and Saticoy is right between Plant City and NE FL, if not somewhat closer to NE FL regarding the average daily highs through the crucial January stretch for the Valentine's Day strawberry race. However, cloud behaving, NE FL gets more vital Sun than Saticoy, and NE FL has a better December to make Saticoy its (our) winter/early spring California counterpart and competitor if there could be one: By June, you can see our average highs go towards 90 F while Saticoy's stick around 80 F for the Summer. That's why they can have nearly year round production, and we can't as the pathogens go wild and the plants can't hold up well at those temperatures and humidity. In Florida strawberries are treated as annuals and planted around October 1 in general, and finish off around June. These are generally short-day varieties to insure genetics for enough Sun to support fruiting. Other types of strawberries require long day length. The whole reason the Florida industry is competitive is due to getting berries out one month earlier before Valentine’s Day, before California is fully online. Unfortunately for Florida, imported Mexican Strawberries from places like Michoacan are starting to spoil the tiny window of opportunity, thanks to stores like Walmart’s shrewd encouragement, Florida's 10,000 strawberry farmed acres fell for the first time last year after being a poster child of modern farming success and has a gloomy projection. Meanwhile, in the last 15 years, Michoacan has essentially gone from nothing exported to offer to increasing acreage to over 10,000 acres as Walmart and multinationals like Dole effectively make the future of Florida strawberries as a commercially viabile employment less and less possible. The benefits are cheaper strawberries optimized less for taste, but for long distance shipping and pretty much are tending to relegate Florida Strawberries to U-Pick and farmers' market operations plus home gardeners. Regulations and government subsidies are widely recognized as grossly unfair against US growers, compared with ever increasing strict US regulations. If only breeders would focus on hydroponic traits in selections, this clearly losing paradigm might be shifted back into the US's favor in some areas, as strawberries is a high value crop that has always been on the edge of possibly going hydroponic. Instead, The best shipping resistant US commercial cultivars principally developed by the Univ of FL (especially 'Strawberry Festival', named for the Plant City Strawberry Festival and commonly called 'Festival') an to a lesser extent Univ of CA (for example, 'Camarosa') and are both adapted well to Michoacan, Guanajuato and Baja California, led by contracts, paybacks and subsidies among governments, drug cartels (Michoacan's economy is dominated by the cartels and nothing can be done withiout approval) and the following multinational catalyst players: Driscoll's, Green Giant, and Dole Foods to follow the Walmart business model using the Sinaloa tomato model. Hopefully this explains why strawberries 'don't taste as good as they used to' and why hydroponics might become a more saving niche and local opportunity, if breeders only changed their mindset (they won't, since our state ag instuitutions receive a couple cents royalties to supply the farmers using conventional growing methods, including from Mexico - simply there are no champions of the hydroponic's cause and farmer's have little leverage when it comes to international trade and the politics of the ag departments of their local tax dollars built). Absent that, recalling the perfect temperature for growing strawberries is a high in the 70's (F) and a low in the upper 40's (F) to 50's (F), as Mexico catches on, I have no doubt that the Florida Strawberry industry and its 12,500 jobs will be out of business over the next 10 years, thanks in part to enterprising Mexicans that made liberal use of UF and UC professors earning "consulting fees" on the side with Mexican vacations helping transfer farm technology in a strawberry wonderland at perfect year round temperatures that slaughters US weather year round at all but the very best months. Part of the Mexican growing systems utilize hydroponic fertilizers for fertigation. I mention this only to show how enterprising farmers can utilize some hydroponic methods and breeding programs set up by state institutions and cannibalize the agricultural interests that established them in the fiorst place. Also, because an unstated goal of the trial was to learn enough to see whether I could start a profitable business growing strawberries. That was a no-brainer - the answer is it isn't worth doing except for a U-Pick farm to sell local high end, high risk crops. BTW, average rainfall in Michoacan is less than 1" monthly (less loss to fungi and bacteria - preferred by strawberries) and solar exposure is always more in Mexico than in California and all the Florida growing months, and intensive picking labor is much cheaper and essentially unregulated. OK, back to the trial, but that was an important topic for my trial, now it will just be for a hobby and I'll leave the up and coming strawberry mongels to the Mexicans, They'll have double the Florida acreage in just the state of Michoacan alone in the next two years and likely continue exporting 98% of it, swamping completely Florida's winter crop which in recent years has been the exclusive provider of strawberries for US consumption representing 15% of American strawberries. I also checked the Solar energy maps from the Department of Energy. While the story on average was not great, the consolation was that some winters have been worse in historical data from Plant City vs. NE FL, I assume due to cloud cover, but at the threshold the 25% more energy they get is difficult to compete with. Final assessment. Yes. Get the earliest producer possible, and plant 2 weeks earlier. That's part of the reason I chose 'Sweet Charlie' which was patented based on three things: Super early heavy production, high brix, and the first strawberry developed for Florida that had Anthracnose (Colletotrichum acutatum) Fruit and Crown Rot resistance. I hope not to be posting examples of this fungus. which is even worse than it sounds! This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Sun, Nov 24, 13 at 12:45

LOL! I was so envious of you being able to put your winter bedding on you bed. I'm still using summer weight bedding, but we had some cool weather yesterday so last night I got a little chilled. I grabbed a throw from the chair to wrap around my shoulders. That was just what I needed. Of course, the throw was on the floor this morning. I obviously warmed up while sleeping.

Scott,there's another possibility. If the meter is up hill from house,water wouldn't drain regardless of conditions mentioned above. To better understand necessity of opening facuets after opening a low point drain,do this. Stick a clear drinking straw into a cup up liquid,place index finger on tip of straw and withdraw from cup. Liquid remains' in straw as long as finger remains' on top.