I grew up in Holland, MI. Lake Michigan, which is about 90 miles wide at this point and shocks many visitors who find that it is fresh water and not a salty ocean, affects the weather a lot. Because of the lake, Holland gets much more snow than areas 30 miles inland. It also stays cooler longer in the spring making it a good area for fruit growers who need to avoid late frosts that ruin flowers and fruit set. It stays above freezing in the fall longer due to the lake's retained heat, also. Summer temps are usually 5 degrees or so cooler than my location about 30 miles inland. The zone maps have changed over the years and aren't always clear for EXACT locations, BUT they really only show what perennials will survive the winter lows they are based on. This does not affect most of the veggies grown in the area since they are grown as annuals. You will want to look at frost dates and length of growing season for good ideas on how most veggies will grown there. In my opinion, the lake and the snow make it a wonderful place to live. But about half the people I talk with are already complaining about the cold weather and the snow to come. I think they should live elsewhere if they dislike the weather that is a sure thing each and every winter.

Catsrose, I got interested in ALM after reading some post here on HMF about her. Then I read her HMF description and member comments. There were a lot of comments about how her fragrance wafts and is the strongest someone's ever smelled, and how much she's willing to bloom. Here in the summer we're hot and most rose scents burn off to nonexistence, so I got visions of a wafting rose by my front door, always in bloom. Then there's the reported disease resistance, low thorns, and easy care. Something about this rose just seemed almost too good to be true, but I was hoping it's just a treasure that I have yet to experience, I guess. So is it not all of those qualities? By the way, I love cats and roses too, and my dog, so I guess I could have been Catsdogrose. Seil and Catsrose, I was intrigued to see that you're both in Zone 6, but ALM was not hardy for Seil, yet grows to 15X15 for Catsrose. That's a huge difference. Am I missing something? I was hoping that our Zone 5b cold winters would limit ALM to a more manageable size, like 6 X 6, or even 8 X 8. Is that not the correct thinking? I have considered weeping China Doll and other roses recommended, but they're only mild for fragrance on HMF, and I'd like to get something very fragrant that wafts in the front, if possible. I first considered ALM for growing on several arbors that I newly installed. But the lack of hardiness was what made me reconsider. Even though the front of my house is not protected, it's probably the warmest place on this property due to all the concrete and rocks absorbing heat and then reflecting it back during the night. Last winter, my Heritage rose never even lost its leaves, and it's planted in the front. That's unheard of in my zone, though granted last winter was freakishly warm. Thanks for looking at my picture and considering this problem with me.

forestprimeval, c. arizonica may be overplanted where you are but it is not in the rogue valley so its not quite the trite choice you might think. all trees (including incense cedar) will grow faster with additional water during the growing season especially during the first few years (no news to you i'm sure but don't know where the o.p. is knowledge-wise). comparitively few drought tolerant trees in the conifer group are both fast growing and drought tolerant from the get go (tho tecate cypress/c. forbesi has apparently a good rep if not over watered in warmer parts of california. if the trees will actually be growing in a lawn situation and he wants fast growing he could just as easily invest in a screen made up of leyland cypress (a REALLY overused tree).

My understanding is that Poa Supina is an alpine grass. It will probably have a hard time with heat. Fine fescues do ok in the shade.