Thanks, LWO and ajc. Always appreciate your input.

The problem is that there are 1 1/2" walnut panels framing our cabinets, so it's not just a matter of swapping out the fronts. And the appliances and counters are already in.

LWO, while not HenryBuilt expensive, the cabinets were costly, and I did many of the fronts in Abet laminate to keep the cabinet cost out of HenryBuilt range. This is our dream kitchen in our forever home, and we'd hoped to enjoy it for the next 20 years. We saved up for a long time to make this kitchen happen.

I'd hoped to wait to post pics in a big reveal post, but this is more important. I'm attaching the pics I have with me at the office, and apologies that they were taken with an iPhone and thus won't be right side up.

I'm crushed in that I love everything about this kitchen - except the finish and durability of the cabinets - and they were the largest expense.

(apologies that I don't know how to correct the orientation of the photos or put several in one post)

Thank you.

another photo . . .

a third . . .

and a close up. Thanks again.

Can you post some closeups of the laminate doors when you get back home? I'm curious now as to how they managed the seams there and how well they're done.

Shame that there is a problem, the veneer matching is nicely done..they go through all the work of center matching the veneers and the botch the prep and sanding is ridiculous

Have you spoke to the maker about your complaints?

I am curious when you mentioned there is a problem with the durability, are you saying that the finish is easily marked?

Do you know what they used for a finish?

Is there a scrap piece of walnut there that you could do a couple tests on yourself without the cabinetmaker there?

LWO, everywhere except the two upper cabinets adjacent to the cooktop, we left the baltic birch edges exposed. I've seen some crummy efforts at laminating cabinets, and I'd say these are pretty good. Yeah, you can see the black lines, but we knew that would be the case. Where there were a few dings at the edges, they managed to lightly sand them.

Here are the few pics I have with me.

Thanks again.

What was used to treat the exposed BB edges?

and another pic of the exposed edges.

ajc, to answer your questions . . .

1) Have you spoke to the maker about your complaints?

No, I was hoping to educate myself before speaking with him as I didn't want to risk getting railroaded. Plus, they still have a bunch of work to do and I didn't want to risk slowing that down (panels on appliances, fixing upper cabinets that hit the puck lights, building laundry chute, etc.). Suggestions for how I should approach him?

2) I am curious when you mentioned there is a problem with the durability, are you saying that the finish is easily marked?

Surprisingly and extremely easily scratched, dented, and dinged so that the substrate is exposed. I already have dozens of marks on my cabinets, just from the guys that have been working to complete the kitchen during the past two weeks. I'm shocked. I have a 15 year old veneered buffet that was in a high traffic area with only a few visible marks and a 1.5 year old veneered bath vanity without a scratch on it. I expected similar from these cabinets.

3) Do you know what they used for a finish?

No.

4) Is there a scrap piece of walnut there that you could do a couple tests on yourself without the cabinetmaker there?

Yes, I do. Any tests you'd like me to perform?

5) What was used to treat the exposed BB edges?

I don't know. Prior to hiring these folks, I visited a family friend's extremely high traffic shoe store. This cabinetmaker had made all of their displays, all with plywood with exposed edges and they were wearing very well considering they were already several years old.

Thanks again. You're awesome to spend time on this. I'm sick realizing that what I've thoroughly researched, planned, and spent my savings on isn't working out.

"Suggestions for how I should approach him?"

If it were me I would probably do what you are doing, get all the material on-site and installed and then bring up the issue.....at the least make sure all material is on-site before saying anything

It would be helpful to know what they used for a finish...catalyzed/non catalyzed, water or solvent based etc

The most basic test is a cross adhesion test, take a razor knife and play tic tac toe on a piece of the walnut keeping the squares about 1/4"...then stick a piece of masking tape on the grid and lift the tape off to see if any finish comes with it

I also use a quarter and see if I can mark the finish easily.....should take a bit of work to get a mark in a properly applied finish

Do you have a finish sample that they provided before they started the project? If so it will come in handy to do the above mentioned tests

For the BB edges, the only reason I ask is....after learing about BWBUILT and kerf from you back when you started the project I took that as inspiration when I bought a new company van, built the interior cabinets of the van using BB and a laminate....looks great but I did not treat the edges and they quickly got dirty, I ended up sanding them to remove the dirt and applied a coat of tung oil on them and that has worked great

Make sure to ask if there is any finish on them and if not make sure to get something on them!

I don't understand the benefit of waiting until everything is completed before complaining. I would not want to wait a second longer before addressing these issues!

ajc,

The wood floor guys put blue painters' tape along the bottom edges of the walnut panels to prevent damage during application of the final coat. In slowly removing the tape, I did take some veneer along the edges off. Sounds like that may be similar to what you're proposing.

I'll play with the sample when I get home tonight. (Of course, I'm assuming the sample is the same, which it may not be if finished under different conditions. I know it was given to me prior to their finishing the cabinets to help me select a finish and color.)

THANK YOU

"I don't understand the benefit of waiting until everything is completed before complaining. I would not want to wait a second longer before addressing these issues!"

The kitchen is made with matched veneers, I would not take a chance and have the guy pull off the job if he feels like he is not going to get paid and have the remaining veneered pieces at his shop....that is the benefit

Thanks for clarifying, ajc71. That does make sense, but if the veneered pieces can't be repaired, he's going to have to remake them all, right?

If the veneer has been sanded through in spots already, then I really don't think that what's there is salvageable. Nor does it bode well for a remake. Since it's bookmatched veneer, ALL of the walnut doors and drawers would need to be remade, because you'd lose that bookmatching if just one were.

Thanks, GreenDesigns. How do I tell if it's been sanded through in spots already?

What you are most likely seeing in the first picture is the substrate layer of glue bleeding through the walnut. Veneer is sliced so thin these days that the technology has exceeded the limits of the material. A few seconds of sanding and you are through the wood. Even worse is that this often does not show up until the finishing stage.

The cabinetmaker should have known this and taken precautions, but the manufacturer of the veneer shares some blame too, but you will never get any recourse from them at this late stage.

Impossible to tell if there is any burn through based on the pictures...

"Since it's bookmatched veneer, ALL of the walnut doors and drawers would need to be remade, because you'd lose that bookmatching if just one were"

Not entirely accurate, if a drawer front is damaged in a stack then yes you would have to replace that stack...but you would not have to replace the entire kitchen

And because they are booked and center matched it would be pretty straightforward to replace one stack and not one to the left or right if is was not damaged.....

"Impossible to tell if there is any burn through based on the pictures…"

I've had employees sand through veneer. It sucks, but they do it.

Notice how there is no wood grain in the spot on the first picture? That's because the wood has been sanded away and you're looking at adhesive or veneer backer or substrate.

Hi,

Thanks all. Seems pretty clear that I have edges that were either sanded thin or there's glue coming through. Neither are good news.

Ajc, I tried your tests. The masking tape one went fine, but I was able to scratch the finish easily with a quarter. But I'm not sure this sample is exactly the same as what I have.

The electrician is having tripping issues, so I currently have limited light in the kitchen. I was able to take a few more photos.

The first is where two panels meet. It looks like there was some tape that left a thin groove and that they made a sloppy cut in one of the panels which took some veneer with it. (Apologies for the glare.)

And here is one of the dings. Some of them are visible from 5-10 feet away. And on the other side of the blue tape, you can see more of the edge issue.

Is it unusual for a new wood veneer kitchen to have many dings like this?

I've seen what looks to be their repair kit and it's Minwax putty.

Thanks for any additional insights. The cabinetmaker's crew is coming back tomorrow. I plan mostly to stay out of their way. Hope we will have all of the materials on site after tomorrow. My 36" fridge and 18" freezer are about to be paneled with this wood. Fingers crossed that those panels aren't messed up, too.

RChicago - I am so sorry for what you are going through. I have no insight to add but wanted to say I really loved seeing the matching grain in your closeup shot. Beautiful.

Thanks so much, oldbat. I hope to have more happy pictures soon.

The good news is that we love the soapstone counters. And the induction cooktop. And the oven - the rotisserie attachment on the Miele is a blast. And the giant, magnificent fridge. And the excellent filtered water. And the fact that we bought sensibly-priced faucets that we think are great. And the lovely job that our floor guy did to add new oak to match the old - you'd never know some of the floor is 40+ years old and some was installed recently. So there is a lot that is great and exactly as we'd hoped.

You'll get get those fixed--it looks like it's turning out to be a great kitchen.

Like AJC, my immediate impression of the laminate doors was "Love the exposed edges! Until I spill coffee on them!".

But I'm sure there's something on them (double check though, before someone spills coffee.).

I've learned a bit more, but first a few laminate photos for LWO and then better pics.

And the other upper . . .

And a better pic of the thin edges.

I've learned that the wood is finished with a catalyzed enamel. The exposed plywood edges are finished with a clear coat of poly.

I'm really shocked that the cabinet maker would go ahead and install those door/drawer fronts with those issues.

"My 36" fridge and 18" freezer are about to be paneled with this wood. Fingers crossed that those panels aren't messed up, too."

Can you examine them before installation?

Jelly, they aren't onsite yet, unfortunately. I thought today, but it's not to be.

Catalyzed enamel is not enough info....you will need to do a little more investigation if possible

In my opinion there is certainly something off with the finishing process if the finish is that soft...where are you located, cold?

Clear poly for the exposed edges is fine

Ajc - Yes, Chicago area. It was in the teens outside while the cabinets were being finished. They cited the cold weather as one of the many reasons for the delay in delivering the cabinets. Something about them drying properly.

Your cabinet maker has to know about these issues already and is allowing things to proceed as if nothing is wrong. I'm baffled. In the most recent pictures you've posted above with the blue tape, it looks like the issues have gone beyond simply repairing/replacing door and drawer fronts.

"They cited the cold weather as one of the many reasons for the delay in delivering the cabinets. Something about them drying properly."

That is a problem for sure...sorry to say. They are not a properly equipped shop with a heated booth, the finish has not cured fully and may never fully cure if they were not sprayed and left to cure in a conditioned space

I would still make sure to get all materials on-site before saying anything, and then do more investigation with what is going on

If the OP keeps mum on these issues while waiting for all pieces to arrive, isn't it more likely that the new pieces to arrive will have the same problems as the ones that are alread there? If it were me, I'd take my chances and let the cabinet maker know right NOW that there are issues that need to be addressed before any more pieces are made. What difference does it make if all the pieces arrive on site if they are all defective? If I saw problems with my install, I would stop the job until the problems were resolved. But that's just me.

Those pieces are not salvageable. No point in waiting on any fridge panels either.

Be polite, but speak up about your disappointment. Directly to the person in charge of the cabinet shop. If he's not been on site to see the cabinets, invite him to view them in person after you've sent him a copy of all of these pictures. He should be horrified if he's not been in the loop.

If he has been on site, then I can't imagine that he doesn't already know that his shop has screwed up. Either he does know, and hopes that you don't have the discernment to pick out these details, or either he doesn't have the eye for those details. Either scenario isn't good. Sure, you wouldn't have been happy with a delay in order to produce a quality product. You're far less happy with a sub par product though.

That's why I would negotiate an end to this relationship regardless.

Another vote for stopping the job now. The other panels will likely have the same defects anyway. Having them finish and deliver the rest so you can make off with all the goods without paying does not sit well, regardless if he is trying to take advantage of you or not. If you allow them to continue the install when you know there is a problem, you are accepting the cabinets. And if you end up in court, that will not help your case at all.

Where is the owner or project manager in all this?

You said they were very expensive. Curious how many cabinets and what they are charging. How much is enough.

RChicago - Every new picture confirms my suspicion that all that "white" stuff under the finish is glue left on the veneer before finishing.

The earlier pictures could be bleed or sand-through but the last pic at 10:12 is certainly glue residue from when they glued the edges on. You can see where the glue was smeared and probably just wiped off with a dry rag and called good.

It's very sloppy work on some very nice wood. You just can't do this on an open-pore wood like walnut.

The thicker solid wood edge banding is the problem here. If it isn't applied perfectly it must be sanded flush. When they sand the edge band to flush, they're sanding through the veneer and slopping glue when they apply it.

Panels pushed through an edgebanding machine have no glue residue and need no sanding because they are machined perfectly. Maybe a kiss with a random orbital sander before the spray room.

Thanks so much for helping me identify the problem.

All of the cabinets have been finished, but all have not yet been delivered. I have expressed my concerns about the durability and the dings/scratches and they respond by saying it will look like a million bucks when they leave. They've seen all of the blue tape and say the dings are because workmen were here and that I and my family won't be as tough on the wood. Of course, if there are problems with the finish, it won't look nice for long.

I'm trying to decide what my goal is. Do I want them to try to make everything right, knowing both that there's a chance that they can't and that it will be costly to have everything uninstalled and reinstalled? (Appliance install alone cost $1600! What about the counters?). Or do I try to negotiate a price reduction? I really, really don't want to end up in court.

How do I demonstrate that the finish isn't acceptably durable?

Any ideas for how I locate an "expert" to come and take a look?

Thanks!

Personally, I would never negotiate a discount for subpar work, otherwise, why not just select cheap cabinetry in the first place? Regarding the statement, "they will look like a million bucks when we leave" ... I would be furious if my installer allowed my cabinets to become trashed with the thought that they would just throw some filler or touch up on them later. When I pay my money for new items, I expect them to be new, not repaired. One or two small dings is to be expected, but you have way beyond that. And what good is it if the cabinets look one way when they leave and simply using them causes them to become damaged so easily? I had all kinds of work going on in my kitchen after the cabinet install and they didn't get damaged. I just don't get these excuses!!

IMHO, the longer you wait to address these issues, the worse it's going to get. There is no sense worrying about his possible reactions because you have no idea how that's going to go. Just lay it out there and see what he says. It's easier to deal with a reality than to do nothing but guess and stress.

"How do I demonstrate that the finish isn't acceptably durable?

Does it really matter if the finish is durable when what is under the finish is unacceptable? Didn't you say above that you had tried a test and the finish just came right up? How 'bout showing them that?

Tre's explanation above regarding the thicker edge banding makes sense and the cabinet maker should have realized on drawer/door front #1 if it was the thicker band that was causing the issue and stopped right there. If an application is obviously not working, why continue with the rest of the job without making an adjustment? Still, the edge banding is just one issue, as there are other mistakes where the boxes are joined. If it were me, I could live with one or two mistakes, but not an entire kitchen full of them.

Really, only you can decide if these cabinets are acceptable. If they aren't, you have to speak up and demand that they are done correctly.

This post was edited by jellytoast on Wed, Feb 4, 15 at 17:25

I agree that you should not wait to tell your cabinetmaker about your concerns. The sooner they know the sooner they can start addressing the problems.

Do you know how thick the front face veneer is? It seems like it must be a bit thin for it to get sanded down to the substrate. I have walnut veneer cabinets in my kitchen that have drawer fronts made by a local cabinet maker. They do not have a catalyzed conversion finish (as far as I know) but they do not ding easily. I really think it's a bit unusual for your cabinets to be so dingable.

There are several problems here as I see it. First and foremost being the fact that someone let these out of the shop like this. That right there is very concerning. As LWO stated this attempt at a "Henerybuilt " look was done by a shop that is not capable of that level of work. I've done this kitchen a few times. You have to be well versed in all aspects of the trade to pull this off well. Mostly you have to care even if it cost you. As far as the defects most of what I see is glue over spray that was not properly cleaned off then showed up when a clear coat was applied. This banding was not done with a machine but by hand with contact cement spray. An edge bander doesn't leave that kind of glue behind or it would be pointless. This glue needed to be cleaned off with a solvent and sanded carefully. These are common problems with low-tech equipment and unskilled labor. There could also be some burn through of the veneer where it meets the banding which is where that is going to happen when you are trying to level out the face especially if what I suspect what was used was off the shelf pre laid-up walnut plywood veneer which is really thin. This also has to do with the dent and ding issue. The thin veneer but mostly the substrate it's bonded to. The way a company like Henerybuilt and the way I also do it is to use selected architectural veneer in raw bundle form and have it laid-up yourself. The quality and thickness of the veneer is much higher and you can request any substrate you want like Medex which is what I like to use. I wouldn't ever use the 1/8" wood banding (either does Henerybuilt) don't like to see a seam around the door. Just use the thicker edge banding 1.2mm and blend it in. Sorry none of this what should have been done helps you right now but the more you know the better you can make your case. The main issue is the glue and the clear coat. Never heard of catalyzed enamel unless you mean catalyzed varnish. Don't have a lot of experience in extreme temperatures
(it's 80 today here in LA) but I know there can be all kinds of curing problems and the materials have a recommended range of use. Even here many people use equipment to heat the material and temp controlled rooms for a better finish. As far as a fix without knowing exactly what was done it's hard to say if anything can be done. Stripping off the finish and cleaning the glue if veneer isn't damaged then re-coating is a long shot. Making new doors is probably the way to go. I would just address the issue of the discoloration with them and see what they have to say about that and how they plan to correct it before I got into telling them how to do their job correctly. Let us know.

RChicago, if you accept delivery of any more of this obviously substandard work and allow the additional labor for installation to be performed, you will have no recourse against the cabinet maker for a return of whatever you have paid to date; you will have to pay someone else to remove the defective work; and you will have to pay for all new door/drawer fronts and the labor to install. The cabinet maker, on the other hand, will have a right to be paid in full because you have accepted the job as is.

You have expert opinion here that the work is substandard and irreparable, with all the reasons why. It does not bode well for your having the cabinet maker make this right (brand new door/drawer fronts) since s/he let this out of the shop in the first place.

Cut your losses. I was too timid to do so and lived with my shattered-dream kitchen for 25 years.

RChicago, I hope you'll come back and let us know how this problem is resolved.

Just popping back in for a status update.

The cabinetmakers spent all day here yesterday and will return on Monday. They're remaking some of the fronts and will attempt repairs to others.

As for the durability, they're assuring us that the dings and scratches are from the workers that have been in the space and that there won't be so many once it's just my family. Not sure we're buying it, so we shall see.

We love the kitchen and are keeping our fingers crossed that all will be ok in the end.

Thanks again for all the extremely helpful input. We were able to engage the cabinetmaker, including the finisher, having a good idea of the issues and possible solutions.

I'm still looking forward to the big reveal post!

Any updates? Ready for the reveal? :-]

There's a reason than high quality veneered cabinets from the Europeans like siematic, bulthaup, and varenna cost a fortune. The cost and choice of top quality veneers, laser edgebanders and finish lines that it's millions of dollars a piece all add to your cost and ensure that " first quality" look.

There really aren't any shortcuts or budget friendly options for those people with an eye for detail.

There are some options here. While not inexpensive certainly less than the European lines. I've been able to get pretty close and working toward perfecting it. But easy it's not. You basically have to be obsessed about it. Understand what goes into those lines, source the same materials and use some of the same technology. I use selected veneers mostly of European origins, work with people who have laser technology, use only Italian finishing materials and of course German and Italian hardware and fittings. There are a few things that are a bit out of reach that each of these lines has made exclusive for them but at the same time I can take things I like for each one and have a variety of looks. No shortcuts though.