J Harvey,

Thank you, thank you! You have completely sold me on this sink, no question. I will be in touch with them this week and I will be sure he knows it was because of you!

My my only other question now would be: why the heck would anyone order a different sink and pay twice as much?!

Thanks again again for taking the time to answer my questions.

All the kitchens are gorgeous!!!

Pallet- thank you for the detailed descriptions! I actually got out my walnut cutting board and did exactly as you described and it's genius! Works beautifully!! I will definitely continue that. You're right about the useful shelf underneath that holds all the Stages bowls, I will be using those like you did soon also. I frequently use them for appetizers.

cjbrewer - thanks for asking such fabulous detailed questions. You asked everything I was wondering, plus some!

I did a similar layout to J Harvey -

island which faces windows & views so person cooking and at sink can see and be a part of things, in this order:

dishwasher - 4' Sink w/big cabinets underneath - pull out trash - 3' gas cooktop - 2' bank of drawers, same size as dishwasher so countertops were balanced on left of sink and right of cooktop.

It works awesome (although it is gigantic) and I wouldn't change any portion of the layout except to be pickier about the actual trash can setup that was installed. The placement of sink and d/w and cooktop mean everything is easy to access and move, can slide everything easily from sink to cooktop, and no turning around to cook things from the sink...so fewer spills.

Ovens are behind, on S end near the cooktop. Fridge and dining table are on N end near dishwasher and sink for easy access while at table and cleanup. My last house had the ovens near the table and the fridge on the other side of the kitchen from the table. We only go to the oven once or twice from the table, but frequently to the fridge so I flipped the ovens and fridge and it is definitely better.

I wasn't entirely sold on the 1 sink thing either, but am now and will never go back. All the big cookie sheets and pans easily go in the sink - FLAT! - with everything else. If you have to have a bowl or something smaller to soak or wash dishes in, I've found whatever mixing bowl I already got dirty works beautifully. So, whatever mixing bowl I started with I fill with soapy water and drop everything in to soak as I prepare the meal. Then wash up at end. Or, put everything directly into dishwasher and just run the rinse cycle. Best thing ever invented! Galley also makes a dishwashing bowl to hand wash items in that is extremely functional.

amykhart, I am so glad you detailed the layout of your kitchen because it is EXACTLY the layout I am considering in a new build! Since you've experienced cooking patterns and routines with that layout, I would be so grateful for your perspective on a few things I'm debating:

1) How do you feel about having your cooktop in the island as opposed to the wall behind you? I never in a million years would've thought I'd put a cooktop in my island because I'm a countertop hoarder and love as much unobstructed space as I can get (rolling out dough, wrapping presents, etc.); however, I'm about ready to make the leap to induction (exciting but scary to me because I don't know a soul with an induction cooktop...just reading tons on the web!) so that would make that surface nice and flat and able to double somewhat as extra counterspace. I also see how very efficient it would be to transfer things directly from the sink to the adjacent cooktop (not that it's too hard to just pivot and cook at the wall behind my island--that's how my current setup is and it works well, although the floor in between sometimes suffers!). So with just 2' of counter on either end of your island, do you feel you have enough workspace or do you sometimes wish for more uninterrupted countertop? I'm guessing your island is about 13'?--mine will be 14' x 5' (actually tapers from 5.5' wide at one end down to 4' at the other end), so they seem similar in size.

2) Do you have one or two sinks? The folks at The Galley strongly, strongly advocate having a second sink for cleanup (they recommended putting it on my back wall where my cooktop was always planned to be until I disrupted everything by toying with putting the cooktop in my island instead!), so that dirty dishes and pots never clutter up the huge sink. I see their point, but at the same time, one of the reasons I'm excited to get a huge sink in the island is so that I CAN throw dirty pans/dishes in there while I'm working and still have plenty of room to still prep/chop at the sink (and also be able to cover them up with one of my cutting boards in the event that I need to hide my mess!) In some ways, I want the huge sink to be grand central station where all wet tasks happen--prep, clean up, etc., and then have my secondary sink somewhere else in the kitchen for when we need a second prepping station that's out of my way or when the kids want to wash up and I don't want them climbing in my work space, etc. So...I'm curious if you have consolidated both your prepping and washing at your main galley sink, or if you have two sinks dedicated to each task separately?

3) Finally, I'm considering the same layout where the fridge is behind and to the left of the island (basically across from the dishwasher), and wonder if that has created any traffic issues for you? In our past kitchen, the DW was in the island, and anytime the kids were loading/unloading it, it was a major headache trying to squeeze past it to grab something from the cupboard, etc....thus, I worry that if my fridge (a popular destination in our home!) is across from the DW, it will make traffic even worse. That said, my aisle will be 50" wide, so perhaps it won't be as big an issue as it was in our previous kitchen with only 36" aisles. My designer thinks I should put the DW on my back window wall with a clean-up sink so that it's out of the island aisle area entirely and keeps that space uncongested and dedicated to prep and cooking (the whole zone concept), but since we eat at our island a ton, I think it would be convenient to just sweep all the dishes into the island sink and then load into the dishwasher right there. I'd love to see if you've figured out an efficient cleanup pattern that doesn't cause traffic jams.

Thank you for any insights you might have!

Hi everyone. This thread is super helpful as we are just starting planning on building a house. I am an engineer and so love to do research and have things planned out well in advance of the time the decision is needed, and this site is really helpful for doing that.

On the undermount sinks, I have a few questions for folks. The context is that the kitchen will be pretty large, and have a prep area near the refrigerator, with it's sink on the island opposite the fridge. A cooking area on one end of the island, and a cleanup area with a big sink and two dishwashers on the other side with the main sink not on the island but facing a window looking into the yard.

So I have been thinking about putting a Stages 33 like sink in for the prep sink instead of something smaller, since that's where most of the prep work is going on, and using something like a prolific 33 for the main sink. Both those are pretty expensive, and this thread has shown me there are lots of other options.

Apologies if I am missing something obvious - we've never built a house or designed a kitchen before!

So on to the Q's:

1) A lot of you like the 2 level ledge sinks like the Galley or the ingeniously improvised approach by J Harvey (Thanks!). It would seem that the top ledge might be harder to clean (the one made by the reveal), is that true? What is the main use case for having 2 ledges separated by an inch or two?

Is it being able to cut on the cutting board and slide the produce into a colander right next to it? If so, wouldn't that still work if the counter was relatively thick and the cutting board height (in the single ledge config) was flush with the top of the counter since the colanders seem to be pretty thin at the ledge.

2) On the create good sinks ledge sink, how exactly is that mounted under the counter? Using clips? Their website doesn't have the installation instructions for that part of the job on it. Are the clips included?

3) The stages sink has a wide ledge that seems ideal for chicken and meat prep. On the other models that don't have such, where you stick the meat? On a lower ledge cutting board, etc...?

4) In our case, we'll have two sinks, a prep sink and a main sink. Should we not bother with a ledge type sink for the main sink, or is it worth it to have two such sinks? The Kohlers are very expensive, but if we go a different route like the Ruvati or Create Good brands, we could still do both with ledge sinks and stay within the budget.

5) We will be using a quartz countertop and want to try and prevent chipping from happening. Most of the ledge sinks seem to have a zero radius corner, which looks really nice with the accessories that slide right into the corners. But doesn't that increase the chance of chipping or cracking of the counter as opposed to a 1/2" or so radius corner? Is it possible to have cutting boards that are cut so they slide flush into a 1/2" radius corner? Does anyone ship with that kind of cutting board if you order a sink with a 1/2" radius?

6) I am curious as to how the ledge sinks have cutting boards that are flush with the countertop with different thicknesses of countertop. The accessories all seem to be the same size thickness, so does that mean they assume a common countertop thickness? Is it 1/2 inch?

If the countertop is too thick, the cutting board would end up being recessed vs the countertop. Does anyone have that config, and if so, how does that work for cutting etc?

7) How would people rate the difference between create good and ruvati in terms of quality and build? Is the seamless drain really that useful?

8) The choices in faucets seem even more complicated. It would seem the most important thing is to have them be reliable and durable. The unit we have in our current house is a moen and works fine, but the retraction of the head doesn't seem very aggressive, and sometimes it is a little slack when retracted.

What all faucets do you all use with these larger ledge sinks, and do the stretch far enough and retract cleanly? Also, it would seem to make sense to not mount them in the center, but on whatever side the drain is, so you can rise produce and such and have it go down to the drain directly without having to remove the spray head and tie up a hand. But that does mean you have to have it extend a fair amount to get to the other side, and probably have it angled in use towards the drain to get everything to flow down properly. I am very keen on finding out which faucets perform this function well!

Well, I have to stop to head off to a family thanksgiving, so that's saving you all from even more of my beginner's questions! thanks in advance, and I wish you all a great holiday!

Mike

The folks at The Galley strongly, strongly advocate having a second sink for cleanup

Hmmm, people who sell sinks say you need two sinks. Gotta be a coincidence.

create good sinks ledge sink

I was completely sold on the Kohler Stages ... but now I think we're going with the Create Good Sinks.

Amykatsy, hoping you might still check in on this thread because I am planning a kitchen very similar to yours (reading through this thread, I have gone through almost all the same research and deliberations as you!) and wondered if you ultimately decided to place your cooktop next to your sink in the island. If so, how do you like it compared to your previous setup where it was on the wall opposite the sink? Is it as functional as you expected, do you miss the counterspace in your island, what did you do with the space where the cooktop used to be on the opposite wall? Also, do you have a second cleanup sink (as Galley advocates) or do you use your island sink for everything (thinking of using my big one in the island as a one-stop shop after reading through this thread!)?

I saw a 42" gallery sink today in New Haven. Looks like a horse trough with gadgets to me.

kawerkamp,

Hi! Sorry for slow response, had a house full of people for the holidays.

Warning: short book following....for those who want the BLUF, I really wish I had found this site before I had our island built. I would have done some different levels. I would have also raised the dishwasher 12-16", brilliant at saving backs. Amazing kitchens and design insight:

http://www.johnnygrey.com/portfolio/uk/bath.html

I LOVE LOVE LOVE having my cooktop->sink->dishwasher-> table flow, and can face everyone when working at sink, cooktop, or dishwasher. With many people around over Thanksgiving, congestion wasn't a problem. We plate a lot of food now at the island then take to table. Saves on serving dishes A LOT. I have a thermador gas cooktop which is amazing, so I leave the pans & hot things from the oven on it & don't need hot pads.

We have a 48-50" walkway between island and back wall. It works very well. The back wall is 4-5' longer than the island, so the ovens extend @ 2' past the south end and the fridge extends @ 2' past the north end. That layout means no congestion, even with a lot of people working all over the kitchen. Someone can be at the sink & loading the dishwasher & another person can still open the fridge side of the fridge (not the freezer side but that's very very infrequent, maybe once in the last 6 months when the stragglers at the table wanted ice cream) because they are not directly across from each other.

I have about 18" of counter space between the cooktop and sink, with a small drawer and pull-out trash in the 18" cabinet. I do almost all my chopping on this 18". I do sometimes wish for more counter space b/c 2 feet on either side, and 18" in the middle gets crowded at times. Then I tell myself to quit being silly, use the sink's gorgeous cutting boards & the cooktop, have a glass of wine & appreciate the giant island and all the space and fun it provides. Truly an exceptionally first world problem.

Yes, our island is gigantic, 13.5' long I think, so your 14' sounds right on. I was really sweating the enormous size, but our kitchen/dining area is about 18 x 30, so it still feels really spacious. It faces an 8' picture window, with small windows on each side that open. On the other side of the island, on the south half are two wine/beer & drink fridges, an ice maker -- BEWARE, the scotsman we bought requires a drain in the floor and we didn't know this until we tried to hook it up and it dumped water all over the place, and to actually make it work, we have to buy an $800 pump. Anyway, the wine fridges, ice maker, & a wine rack are what my mother says is conspicuous consumption. :) She's right. It is a bit over the top, but very very useful when we have a lot of people there. That corner of the island has a hutch up against the wall with hard alcohol & mixers & glasses, so that corner is really grand central station for drinks. The other 6-7' of the island closer to the table is a sitting area for bar stools. The East half where the fridges & sitting area is about 6-7" higher, so there's a small backsplash across the whole island. We were going to make it one solid flat surface all across, but found it was very cost prohibitive to make a counter that big. So we elevated the other side to make it standing bar height on the end where all the drinks are, and to make a backsplash for the cooktop & sink, & put power plugs in the backsplash in front of the counterspaces. I really wish I had found Johnny Grey's site before I made it two giant surfaces. Also, for fun, we painted chalkboard paint on the under side where the barstools are for the little kiddos. :)

I do have a second sink, but not the one I planned nor the one Galley recommends. I was on the fence like you. We were building this house trying to sell the house we were living in (no luck on the sale yet), and had to get out in 2 weeks because some fantastic renters came along on a very short timeline. At that point, we had no toilets or sinks installed in the new house. YIKES. So my husband rushed installing some of the ones we had taken out to replace...haha. I had gotten a really cool 1950's set of metal cabinets out of some old Army barracks and had them powder coated a brilliant blue. They came with a 8' stainless steel pressed sink/counter top. I had every intention of replacing the countertop & sink later, but it turns out I love the stainless steel. It is bullet proof. I can put anything at all on it without damaging it. The sink is in the middle, the stainless steel countertops on the sides have drainrack rows/riveting (??) that are slightly sloped towards the sink. When it was my only sink, I hated it. It was one of those double bowl, very shallow sinks that you can only immerse plates & very small pans in. But, now that I have a huge deep sink on the island, I love the little shallow sink. Use it to wash hands, thaw frozen items, heat baby bottles for visiting family, wash small things, etc. It's great for soaking also as it doesn't take nearly as much water to fill it up as the horse trough sink. LOL to LindaR!

My giant sink on the island really is grand central station for everything. I don't cut much over the sink -- even though I think the idea is brilliant -- because it's a little too high for me. I'm tall (5'9"). I designed the countertops to be the right height for me to chop, not realizing the cutting board on the sink would be 1-2" higher. I do almost all chopping between the sink and cooktop right above the trashcan (didn't realize in designing it how particularly brilliant that was!!), and am even considering making that surface a chopping block. We still don't have a permanent surface on the top of the island because I can't decide what I want. I thought I wanted marble, but then I learned to love the stainless steel. I do like the wood we have right now, but it's not pretty. Don't want my entire kitchen stainless steel though, so trying to figure out how to strike a balance and still have the usefulness of a chopping block or stainless steel. My mother-in-law suggested having a chopping block/cutting board/serving surface made for the cooktop, which is a brilliant idea.

My dishwasher is on the island to the left of my sink, closest to the table so people can literally just get up and take a couple steps & put dishes directly into the dishwasher if not full of scraps.

As the actual making of the island, mine is two sets of cabinets with their backs together, and a cavity in between. The cavity is essential for all the pipes & wires. If you don't have one, you should seriously consider it b/c otherwise it gets really crowded in there. I have a warming drawer under my cooktop, a hot & cold water dispenser, garbage disposal, and the cooktop, it's like it's own power grid.

Hope that answers your questions!

Hi Fresno boy!

1) Ledges - both are hard to clean. So are the hard 90 degree angles. Yes, you're correct, ledges must be separated by more than a couple inches or you can't slide the colander under the upper tier board. Making a thicker countertop works if you make the ledge in it. Otherwise a positive reveal with thick counter just means you've got further to go to the first ledge. Is that what you were asking? Or were you planning two levels of countertop?

2) good sinks question - I don't know, don't have that sink.

3) Stages sink ledge - yes, it seems ideal for chick & meat prep, but I find I very rarely use it, it gets in the way of the Galley accessories. It is beautiful though when I move the drain rack that's usually on top of it.

4) Prep & main sink -- I would match brands if at all possible unless they are wildly & deliberately different. What are you doing in the main sink if not prepping? Strictly clean up? I wouldn't bother with the ledge in a sink I was doing dishes in. It will get in the way. A drain rack on top is far more useful for drying. You could get two sinks the same size, one with a ledge & one without. Then, if you didn't like the initial arrangement, swapping them is a headache, but possible.

5) No idea on the chipping or radius question.

6) ledge sinks have cutting boards that are flush, with different thicknesses of countertop. The accessories all seem to be the same size thickness, so does that mean they assume a common countertop thickness? Is it 1/2 inch? -- I think you're right. I also think many of the pictures have an extra piece of countertop glued to the front to make it appear thicker.

If the countertop is too thick, the cutting board would end up being recessed vs the countertop. Does anyone have that config, and if so, how does that work for cutting etc? -- I don't have this, it sounds like a good idea for me as a tall person, but upon further thought, I think it's potentially lousy as it seems it could very easily have the end of one's knife run into the countertop.

7) Can't help you on this one either since I don't have either sink. The Stages sink does have a little trouble clearing, not quite a steep enough angle.

8) Faucets - yet another OCD problem I am all too familiar with. :) The weight on mine kinked the line, so very little water pressure unless you pulled it out. Take the weight off, and it doesn't retract properly, nor is there a magnet in the faucet head so it doesn't stay in place very well. Seems many faucets don't stretch far enough unless you put it somewhat near the center.

Also, it would seem to make sense to not mount them in the center, but on whatever side the drain is, so you can rise produce and such and have it go down to the drain directly without having to remove the spray head and tie up a hand -- GOOD POINT. Mine is near the drain, and has trouble reaching the other end. It's also set back too far and isn't over the drain.

Amy

Amykhart,
THANK YOU for your reply and for making it so juicy and full of great insights.
Seriously, I’ve been itching to get my little ones to bed so I could sit down
and read your response—like when you just can’t wait to curl up with a good
book! Our kitchen layouts are uncannily similar, so everything was super helpful. I think you've settled my DW dilemma. I had always wanted it in my island, but my kitchen designer (and multiple others) kept encouraging me to create a clean up zone away from the prep zone....but the reality is that I'm either making my dirty dishes at the prep sink in the island or wanting to clear the kids' dishes when they're snacking at the island, so it's so convenient to have the dishwasher RIGHT THERE where all the dirty things are!

Glad to hear you love your Thermador gas cooktop--that's my top pick for a cooktop if I end up chickening out on doing induction! So funny you mentioned the Scotsman ice machine: after being so excited to have Sonic ice in my very own kitchen, I recently decided to bail on getting one because I think it'd really get my goat to be paying for the repairs (that everyone says are an inevitability) on an already expensive non-necessity appliance...that said, I hope it serves you well and provides you with dreamy crunchy ice for many years! Excellent tip on keeping a cavity in the island to run all the guts--hadn't thought of that. Thanks also for the referral to the Johnny Grey website--very unconventional approach to kitchen design--I'm looking forward to prowling through their portfolios more. A few more questions if you're willing to humor me:

-Being 5'9" (I'm 5'10") did you do higher countertops? I'm going to do ours at least at 38", maybe even 39".

-Where did you put your microwave? It would be easiest for me to put it below the island, but I think bending over all the time would bother me--we use ours a ton and I really like them at chest height. So I'm thinking I'll put it above my primary oven (which is located at the end of my wall run just like yours)--my wall run is 16.5' long though, and I worry that it will be too far away from the fridge, which is at the other end of that run....so curious where you put yours in relation to the fridge.

-Your army barrack sink and cabinets sound so cool--what an incredible find! I would LOVE to see a picture of them (and any other pics to help me visualize your rockin kitchen set-up)!

Thank you again for your very helpful insights!

Anyone getting any sink with ledge- I have found that having a cutting board that is ever so slightly higher than your countertop is best. It saves you from cutting your counter (I've got soapstone) & makes cutting on it so much easier.

kawerkamp - LOL! So glad you are enjoying my lengthy posts! It's so much fun to find a kindred soul! :-))

where are you? I'm in OK.

I obsessed over the cooktop. Studied and read a lot. Decided I thought I wanted the Thermador for the simmer burners and the star shaped burners. Then I found the 36" cooktop on Craigslist for $750!!! Was an awesome way to figure out if I really liked it because I could always resell it for the same price. I LOVED it. I had planned to move up to the professional grade rangetop in the new house, but when I went to buy it, the big 6 burner range top didn't have any little burners. I really liked the little burners and used them a lot. Looked at wolf, Miele, etc., couldn't decide so I went home to obsess some more and study how I used the cooktop. ;-). I bought the same cooktop again and love it. I use the little burners and the simmer burners almost every day (every morning to keep our coffee warm) and would highly recommend the cooktop.

I was on the fence on induction because I really don't like the glass feel of the cooktop, seems like it would be easy to crack and destroy. The grates on gas burners are nearly indestructible. My mom has a glass electric cooktop and it's hard to adjust the temperature quickly, which is why I prefer gas. I'm told induction heats very quickly, but can you turn it down and the heat reduce quickly too? Plus it's hard to tell when it's warm or hot, which is scary to me. I can a lot of tomatoes and other things, and although I bought a pressure cooker, the thought of having a bomb of boiling water and glass in my kitchen causes me to pause. I am very detail oriented (anal really) so I'm sure it would not happen, but it nonetheless raises my blood pressure thinking about it so I don't do it. Same with the induction burner. Some people really love it. It's just not for me. You have to buy all new pans to use. Plus the warnings say to avoid if you have heart problems or are pregnant. I am not either of those, but didn't want to worry about a family member or friend with those issues working at the cooktop. Or what if I became pregnant????

I really think the genius of Galley is the flow from cooktop to sink to table. I personally think the dishwasher should be in that flow because, for me, it minimizes clean up afterwards as I try to clean up as I go, so having the dishwasher right there in the flow makes it easy. Not sure I would if I had to turn around and take a few steps. I know that sounds lazy and silly to some, but it works for me and sounds like it would work for you. I worried a lot about putting it on the back wall, and decided not to because I wasn't replacing the smaller double sink at that point and the sink was too shallow to do much clean up in. So, if I turned around to put a dirty pan in the clean up sink, I'd still have to pick it up, take it back to the big sink (or make a mess with water splashing everywhere), then turn around to put in the dishwasher again. Yes, I put a lot of my expensive pans in the dishwasher. Mostly stainless, very few non-stick. I know everyone says not to, but Martha Stewart does occasionally. Plus it really makes no sense - if a pan can tolerate 400+ degrees in the oven or on the cooktop with liquids/food in it, it should completely be able to tolerate 100+ degree water in a dishwasher. Mine do, I've been doing so for years, and they have not been damaged.

As to countertop height, Johnny Grey and one of his partners has an ergonomic guide somewhere on the website for planning heights from the elbow of the cook. A certain number of inches for cutting, another to the bottom of the sink, another for kneading dough. He frequently does one of each for each partner in the kitchen so both can easily cook. I'd measure from his directions, I did and it works very well for me. Yes, my island is taller than standard, I think. It's a little over 36", which is the perfect chopping height for me. Wish I had raised the sink just a little, the bottom is a little bit of a stretch and wouldn't be if it was slightly higher like he recommends. I REALLY wish I had raised he dishwasher, but that would mean the 2' of counterspace on top would be raised too, making it difficult to use.

I would suggest you put a cutting board on your current counter to make it the height you think you want and try it. I bet you'll find that 38-39" is to tall, but only testing it out will tell you for sure. I tested everything I could, even went through cooking motions visualizing how I thought I wanted things arranged before I did it.

I am trying to steer my family away from the microwave, so I put it around the corner in the pantry. Instead, we use the warming drawer under the cooktop and the reheat feature on the Miele steam oven. Both work fabulously well. It only takes a few minutes longer, the food texture is much better, and probably more nutritious. Plus the warming drawer keeps things warm! It was awesome to have a bunch of Thanksgiving left overs in it for several hours for people to graze.

Amy

I'll work in pictures to upload soon.

Amy

On, not in ;-)

I’m in Idaho, Amy. I was giggling over your comments re. putting
pots in the dishwasher—so true that if they can stand up to the abuse of a
cranking burner or soaking in the sink overnight, they just might survive the
dishwasher unscathed (the only reason mine don’t go in is when they don’t
fit!).

Thanks for more good tips. A fly on the wall would think I
was quite the meditative cook, as I pause and close my eyes mid-task, but what
I’m really doing is simulating in my mind, “How would I do this in my new
kitchen?” or “Would my microwave here vs. there make things more efficient?” I
think my husband is baffled at why I can’t just bang out my layout and
appliance selections in one night (I have gnawed and researched on this for months!). Because this will be our forever house, and I'm an avid cook, and I’m a perfectionist in general, all factors have combined to
make this one of the most difficult research/planning processes/decisions ever!

Your comment re. induction and cancer risks was the
first I’ve heard, so I’ll have to research that more!

Nice to hear you like your
steam oven—that is something I’m currently on the fence on. I initially was sure I’d get one as my second
oven, but then I wavered thinking I’d rather have a large capacity second oven
(plus they’re so expensive), but now I’m back to considering one (I’d probably
stack my main oven and microwave on the wall b/c I use the micro so often, and then
put the steam oven under the counter).
Do you have double ovens PLUS a steam oven, or do you find your steam
oven has the capacity to function well as the second oven? When do you choose to cook with it vs. your traditional oven? I thought I’d get
the Wolf steam oven, but now that Miele’s is almost the same capacity, I think I’ll go with
whichever is cheaper (though it may be easier for me to get service on the Wolf
than the Miele in my area)—what swayed you toward the Miele?

Can’t wait to see photos!

Amy, thanks for the reply. Comments inline:

"1) Ledges - both are hard to clean. So are the hard 90 degree angles. Yes, you're correct, ledges must be separated by more than a couple inches or you can't slide the colander under the upper tier board. Making a thicker countertop works if you make the ledge in it. Otherwise a positive reveal with thick counter just means you've got further to go to the first ledge. Is that what you were asking? Or were you planning two levels of countertop?"

No, just one layer of countertop. There seemed to be a lot of folks on this thread who really like the galley sink's 2 levels of ledge, but I am trying to understand the use case if the levels are an inch or less apart...

3) Stages sink ledge - yes, it seems ideal for chick & meat prep, but I find I very rarely use it, it gets in the way of the Galley accessories. It is beautiful though when I move the drain rack that's usually on top of it.

This does bring up another question - some of the ledge sinks have drain racks that fit on the ledge. Are they as good as a separate drain rack sitting on the counter, and does having them recessed look good as opposed to being on the counter and more fully exposed?

4) Prep & main sink -- I would match brands if at all possible unless they are wildly & deliberately different. What are you doing in the main sink if not prepping? Strictly clean up? I wouldn't bother with the ledge in a sink I was doing dishes in. It will get in the way. A drain rack on top is far more useful for drying. You could get two sinks the same size, one with a ledge & one without. Then, if you didn't like the initial arrangement, swapping them is a headache, but possible.

Makes sense. Same brand, but different configuration, maybe except in the case you put the drain rack on the ledge.

6) ledge sinks have cutting boards that are flush, with different thicknesses of countertop. The accessories all seem to be the same size thickness, so does that mean they assume a common countertop thickness? Is it 1/2 inch? -- I think you're right. I also think many of the pictures have an extra piece of countertop glued to the front to make it appear thicker.

If the countertop is too thick, the cutting board would end up being recessed vs the countertop. Does anyone have that config, and if so, how does that work for cutting etc? -- I don't have this, it sounds like a good idea for me as a tall person, but upon further thought, I think it's potentially lousy as it seems it could very easily have the end of one's knife run into the countertop.

This is a very good point. It would seem that a recessed cutting board, that is below the level of the counter would be a bad idea for several reasons. Having it at level or slightly above would seem optimal. I'll have to look at the sink manual to see what assumptions are made about the thickness of the counter.

7. Can't help you on this one either since I don't have either sink. The Stages sink does have a little trouble clearing, not quite a steep enough angle.

Thanks for the observation. I need to find one that I can actually experience and see how it functions...

8) Faucets - yet another OCD problem I am all too familiar with. :) The weight on mine kinked the line, so very little water pressure unless you pulled it out. Take the weight off, and it doesn't retract properly, nor is there a magnet in the faucet head so it doesn't stay in place very well. Seems many faucets don't stretch far enough unless you put it somewhat near the center.

Also, it would seem to make sense to not mount them in the center, but on whatever side the drain is, so you can rise produce and such and have it go down to the drain directly without having to remove the spray head and tie up a hand -- GOOD POINT. Mine is near the drain, and has trouble reaching the other end. It's also set back too far and isn't over the drain.

Yes, my existing pullout suffers a lot from similar circumstances. Its annoying, It would be great to hear from people who have faucets that are designed to work with a large sink like the ones we are talking about!

Thanks!

Mike

Well, sadly, it seems my last mini-book didn't actually post. :(

I'll work on it again later. Tried to do photos, but sadly, while I thought I had a lot of light in my kitchen, it's all in the ceiling and throws weird shadows on the cabinetry I was trying to photograph. Since this is the awful time of year when the sun comes up as I am leaving, and goes down before I get home, it will have to be done during the day on a weekend. Uggghh. I would like to have current photos myself anyway, so it's really no trouble. :)

Thank you, Amy--looking forward to your post!

kawerkamp,

To bad you're so far away in Idaho! It's been so much fun to exchange posts! On your pots being to big to go in the dishwasher, my new dishwasher's upper racks come out, making space for giant things. My old one may have, I have no idea since it never occurred to me to try. The salesman showed it to me. But, it's a hassle so I only do it when I have a lot of big things as it can be more work than it's worth. Plus, where do you put a dishwasher drawer??? Leaned up against the cabinet or dishwasher is a lousy option.... it fell over a lot as kids and dogs walked by. If you're shopping for dishwashers, I have the Bosch silent one with the silverware drawer on top. It is the absolute coolest thing ever! Now my fork tines are never in danger of being bent or bent worse than they already are.

I too tried to set up my kitchen to demo what I thought I wanted. :) And perfectionism was the goal, which I've learned the hard way isn't necessarily the best goal because I got paralyzed in indecision, so I've been in the new house for exactly a year now and still only have temporary countertops on our huge kitchen island! Oh well. And yes, my husband didn't understand it either, he started calling me bubba gump anytime I wanted to talk about the kitchen he'd say shrimp shrimp shrimp and more shrimp... I learned to smiled and take an overdue breath. :)

Steam oven -- I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE it!!! It's stacked on top of an older bosch oven, so it appears as a double oven, even though it isn't. Our carpenter built the cabinet in place, floor to ceiling, with two cavities for standard size ovens, an open vertical shelf above for cookie sheets & serving platters, and a big deep pan drawer underneath. The two standard size openings was done so if the Miele died and we put a standard size oven in it's place, we only have to remove the extra trim. Or, my hope, somebody makes a larger steam oven!

Steam oven under counter - I would absolutely NOT put the steam over under a counter. When you open the door it sometimes blasts you with steam (I learned quickly to open it from an angle if it was mid-baking), and waist high seems like a really bad for kids and adults alike. Plus too close to kids for comfort in my not so humble opinion.

Do you have double ovens PLUS a steam oven? No, just the two ovens stacked on top of each. Over Thanksgiving, my husband actually commented that we needed a third oven! We could have used 4 ovens, we had a small assembly line of things waiting to go in. I see now why those extremely expensive French ovens, and older ovens have so many different sized smaller ovens, I could have totally used all of them and not had to work so hard in determining what order things went in the oven in, or what temp. Of course, being the person that I am, I'd probably then obsess over which dish to put in which oven.... ;-)) I've been in a test kitchen that had all the ovens just below chest height, which was absolutely awesome. If I had unlimited space, that's what I'd do.

Does the steam oven function as well as traditional oven? Absolutely. Better. I find myself using the Miele steam oven as my first choice, every time. It's so flexible. It has a million pre-programmed options, and you can program it to do anything you want, with or without steam. It is persnickety. It says to wipe it out every time you use it. I didn't and learned the hard way that it should be wiped out very very frequently as it's much easier to wipe off freshly steamed splatters than rebaked over and over food splatters. I made an outstanding 18-20 pound turkey in it over Thanksgiving. It took up the whole oven, and had to go in at an angle, but it worked out. I did throw some potatoes around it at the end, and they came out beautifully too. The miele steam oven demands a lot of attention by beeping at you frequently for filling it with fresh water, dumping the used water, rinsing, descaling, etc. It is worth it. One of my fav safety features is that you have to tell it how long you want it to bake, or the default is 1 minute. Yep, learned that the hard way to. :-) So, you can never turn it on and forget to turn it off. It is a tad snobbish (or a lot, but expected given the price), the Masterchef pre-programmed option has prime rib, rack of lab, chicken breast, fillet of salmon, etc., but no roast or chicken thighs. haha. Oh well. It's still one of my favorite things in my kitchen. Two other things to be aware of: (1) it's in centigrade, not Fahrenheit; (2) the timer includes preheating. So, if you have something that is picky about the exact cooking time, you'll need to figure out about how long your oven takes to get to temp, then add that to the cooking time. Or, do what I do and add 15-20 min to the desired cooking time, sometimes longer since I'm prepping and don't want to worry about it. It does beep when it's up to temp. And it's digital screen tells you what the temp is, you can watch it go up. You can also add time at any point. Or, perhaps the best option, any food item that is that picky is probably pre-programmed in.

The Miele steam oven also has a reheat feature that is fabulous. Far better than a microwave. It uses steam so things don't dry out.

Also, at the time I bought mine, the Miele was the only one that would go way down to something like 30 degrees, low enough to dry herbs, or make yogurt, etc. I've made yogurt and it is delightful and works beautifully.

I had to really stand strong on my desire not to have the warming drawer under both ovens, where my husband, the designer, the architect, and the carpenter all wanted to put it. My pans are there. :-) And now my husband agrees putting the warming drawer under the cooktop was a better option b/c you don't have to lean over nearly so far. I got a brand new 36" Thermador warming drawer off craigslist for around $850, and put it under the cooktop. It's a far far better place because it's lifted off the floor -- putting and retrieving heavy food dishes of the floor would be hard for anyone with any back problems, or any older person. Under the cooktop, it's super handy. I thought 36" would be too big, but we used every square inch over Thanksgiving. It kept the food pleasantly warm all day for people to graze. Actually did that a couple days in a row. Works much better than a microwave. Can you tell I'm trying to move away from the microwave??? There's been quite a bit of research that say it does bad things to the food. But, to each their own. On the warming drawer, if you have space, I'd actually make it silverware drawer height -- on ours, people would get plates and silverware and spoon out what they wanted directly out of the warming drawer. Only had to bend over a little.

What swayed you toward the Miele? I chose the Miele a few years ago (we bought things as we came across them as we were getting ready to build and building) because at the time, Miele had the largest oven capacity, and was the only one with water on top, which greatly improved oven capacity. I think Thermador was about to do that. Plus, I found one in a discount store that was the year before's display model. Kind of like buying last year's luggage style, who cares! That being said, if Thermador is easier to get serviced in your area, and the capacity is the same, I don't think you can go wrong with Thermador. I absolutely love my Thermador cooktop & warming drawer.

One of the other things we did throughout the house was make it handicapped accessible. I had occasion to learn a lot about ADA rules a couple years ago, and most of them are very common sense -- if you know how to think about it. It's easy to build/rehab a house that way from the beginning, without little to no added cost, while modifications later are cost-prohibitive. Think about it -- nearly every new hotel is fully accessible or very easily convertible in the bathroom as only the tub isn't, even the sinks could have a wheelchair slide under most of them. I'm told the industry is preparing for an aging population and planning to convert some hotels to nursing homes at some point. Wow. Yeah.

The things we did were 33-36" doorways everywhere (the ones that turned out less were framed incorrectly and the solid wood doors had to be cut down, (yeah, I lost that argument), 4' hallways, larger showers, lots of space around toilets, basically no tiny area anywhere in the house that a wheelchair couldn't access. Not that I ever plan on being in a wheelchair, but things happen. In our last house, every major area was a step or two to get into or out of. There were 2" tall transitions nearly everywhere else. I never really noticed it (except for the initial stubbing of toes when we first moved in) until my son took a helmet to the inside of his knee and was in a wheelchair for a couple weeks, then crutches. After that, I decided to have the first floor of our new house be all one level. Naturally, that's impossible in an old house, but in the very few areas where it occurs, there is a nearly invisible slow slope between them that a wheelchair could easily navigate. You can skimp and save a variety of places, but the tile/stone floor is not the place as that must be precisely perfect or it's very visibly not. A broom and vacuum move much more easily around too, which was a bonus I hadn't thought about. Of course, the framing error was caught before all doors were framed. But, most of my 36" special order beautiful wooden doors had to be cut down an inch or two. Do you know where the only intact 36" doors are in the whole house????????????????? You'll never guess. Upstairs. *#$%#$%(*(#$^*&

Ha. Ha. Still trying to learn to laugh at least a little about that one.

Amy

Photos (ignore the dishes, it's a well used kitchen, the dishwasher is full and running). :-)

my fun brilliant blue vintage metal cabinets:

Warming drawer under cooktop, yes we love the griddle but oh does it make a mess with grease. NEVER do bacon on it. That took forever to clean up.

And yes, still thinking (obsessing) over countertops so this is the temporary sheets of wood).

Far right corner is SW corner, across from ovens.

This is SE side of island with drink fridges and wine rack not yet installed but the shelf works.

NE side of island near table.

The color in the paint difference - the darker color is chalkboard paint.

FYI, amykatsy and amykhart is the same person, me. No idea how I got two different logins... and I thought I was pretty internet savvy....guess not...the descriptions of the cabinets are underneath the applicable photo. I put more space between the photos, but it didn't come through in the post.

Amy (glad to know you and amykhart are one in the same)! I’m so sorry I didn't respond to your most recent post of EYE CANDY earlier. About a week ago, our builder’s bid finally came in and it was waaay higher than expected, so we’ve been in a whirlwind of chaos and indecision ever since…meeting with other builders to see if the initial bid is calibrated right, wondering what we’ll do if we have to pare back our plan, and now considering scrapping everything and starting over again (during this waiting game for other bids, I've noticed things I don't love about my elevation and layout and had some insightful concerns raised in the building forum. If you had told me 2 weeks ago that I’d be looking at houseplans right now, I would’ve laughed my head off. Then screamed. We spent over a year designing our plans and spent too much $ in the process…I can’t afford to spend any more with the overpriced designer of our current plans (because I think he just doesn’t get the look I’m going for), so starting from scratch may be more fruitful than attempting modifications with him. Oh boy, can I start this all over again??…feeling a mix of excitement, trepidation about wasting time and money if we don’t end up with a new plan that I love more (DH wants this house built, stat!), and also some morbid curiosity/intrigue about what totally novel and new options might be unearthed if we move forward with someone with more creative talent and a willing to “play house” with me…needless to say, I’ve been totally consumed with trying to figure out what to do! And my husband is exasperated because he sees nothing wrong with our plan...but I've promised him if we start over again, I will cut square footage which will save us back the cost of new plans ten times over.)

So with that said, let’s visit my happy place: kitchen plans! I had so much fun reading your post and seeing the photos of your incredible kitchen. First off, I must confess, I’ve never seen a kitchen with a temporary wood countertop looking so good…I’m not sure what you’re contemplating putting in for the long-run, but you couldn't go wrong with wood--sure it’s not as utilitarian as say, quartz, but it really looks awesome in your island and counterbalances the stainless steel behind it! Now you have me contemplating wood for my island (which I had dreamed of when we first decided we were going to build, but ditched because I worried it would be an impractical match for a low-maintenance gal like me!). If I don’t put my cooktop in the island, but instead keep it where it’s currently drawn in on the wall behind, I’m going to do this (saw this house at a parade of homes and thought the thick-drape wood counter flanking the range looked incredible):

Smart move to make the cut out for the steam oven the conventional size to give you flexibility down the road. And very helpful insight about whether to place the steam oven high or low—getting a blast of steam in the face if it’s low is something that never crossed my mind. My biggest hesitation with the steam oven has been worry over it’s capacity, but after reading that you cooked up an 18lb bird in that thing, I’m all in (even if it does turn its nose up at me when I insult it with a pan of fish sticks!)

Your beautiful 36” doors only surviving in tact upstairs?? The irony. The aggravation. And the tears!

How are you venting your cooktop? (And if you're not venting at all, that's cool--holy moly, there are some ventilation police patrolling some of these forums!)

And last but not least, YOUR BLUE CABINETS AND SINK SPIN ME ROUND. And the fact that you snagged them from an army barrack makes them and you even cooler. Yes, I would totally design my kitchen around a piece like that.

Kawerkamp,

good morning! No worries on the delay, we all have lives outside this blog....even when we would much prefer to bury our heads in the sand of the blogs....

Thanks for all the kind words! Very very gorgeous photo you posted also! Ironically, until I took theses pictures I had not seriously considered a wood countertop. After cleaning off the counters to take the pictures, and then seeing the photos, I am now seriously considering one, at least on the side where the sink & cooktop are. Turns out Boos makes full length counters! And it's actually cheaper than marble. Thank you for confirming my thoughts on that.

You're so right about the anger and tears on my 36" doors....it was awful. And yet a small voice inside me said you're being a spoiled brat....I still wish I had pushed harder on getting that fixed.

On my shocking blue metal cabinets, aren't they fun!?! They were not that color when I got them, of course. The true inspiration was a $10k+ oven almost that color. I had dragged my husband to yet another kitchen store (shrimp, shrimp, shrimp and more shrimp from me, aka bubba gump) where I had fallen madly in love with a brilliant blue/green gigantic oven. (It was one of those French ones) He, to my surprise, really liked it. After thinking about it, he suggested I get some metal cabinets and have them powder coated the same color. Then said the magic words, and "if turns out you don't like them, we won't have much money in them and you can rip them out, put them in the garage for overflow, and get something else." :-)))) Since I really wanted double ovens on the wall and was hyperventilating just a bit on spending such a large sum to get a color that might look obnoxiously tacky, I jumped at the idea. Powder coating is extremely durable, although the color choices are not nearly as expansive as regular paint. But close enough. :-)

My last house had the cooktop on the wall across from the sink, 5-6' away from the sink, and it was a giant pain to constantly walk back and forth to wash things and my hands. Just sayin'. Sorry. But do not torture and kill yourself to build something you will struggle to pay for.

****siigggggghhhhhh**** to your sticker shock bid. I'm all to familiar with that. And not to burst your bubble any further, but one should plan on cost overruns of 20-30% and then be pleasantly surprised if it's only 10%. Designers are CRAZY CRAZY expensive. Another headache warning I hope you already know that I learned the hard way: Did you hire an architect? Fairly early on when we were only a few thousand into the designer, the designer started clashing with most everyone else. And then the bids started going up. Someone was kind enough to tell us that the trades hated the designer. I loved your comment about wanting to laugh your head off and then scream. I completely get it! We went more with the architect, and invited the designer to help decorate and choose paint colors (on a very limited budget) after it was done.

Yes, we vented the cooktop. Some people are very passionate about venting! Lol. In all seriousness, you do have to vent a cooktop that's got any power at all. It's even recommended to open a window a bit to really move the air. Here's mine:

The ceiling is arched, so our carpenter had to build a special box to house the top and deal with the angled ceiling. It's also a larger model (buy the most powerful motor you can afford, you can always turn the fan down, but can't go above capacity). It was purchased before the cooktop, I think it's 40" wide as I had intended to get a 48" range. I picked glass so it would be less intrusive in the room. I was afraid it would be a real eyesore, but it's not, in part because it's so high. It's also slightly off center, but no one can tell. Not even standing directly in front of it - it's quite a distance above the cooktop. Because we are tall and wanted to see out of the window and didn't want to put it at the so called proper height which would be eye level, we raised it. This makes the buttons hard to reach for the occasional shorter guest, but oh well. It's easily 35-40" above the cooktop so my 6' husband can see out the window. Because the motor is so powerful, even though it's so high, it still works extremely well. We rarely use the highest speed unless something got burned. It works great.

whatever you decide, it really will be okay.

J Harvey,

Hello again, another question for you if you are able to help. I spoke with Dan from Create Good this morning--he says, "hello!"-- and we are working on an order for my upcoming remodel.

Of course, I ran into a hiccup. A 6" shortage of wall space.

Try as I might, I am not able to fit the 50" sink you have, with a dishwasher AND a separate trash drawer on the wall of cabinets where it needs to go. (See photo) I reached out to Dan with my dilemma and two possible custom options that could work:

1. A 44" sink (42" of actual, usable basin). This option (sadly) would give me 6" less of sink than the size you installed. Not ideal.
Or...

2. The 50" sink (48" of useable basin) in a shallower depth. Installing a 8 or 9" deep sink would allow for the trash to be underneath the sink. (With the offset drain and disposal in the other half/side of cabinet).

Dan was incredibly responsive and we are now working to find the best depth to solve this problem. Not just for me, but adding it as an in stock option. (Seriously, this guy is GREAT!)

After reaching out to Rev-a-Shelf and oodles of googling I think that a 9" depth would work perfectly. This would still be a very nice, deep sink, would perhaps cut back on some back discomfort for some, and allow for a standard trash/mass market product to be installed underneath saving space and money by not having to install an additional 18" trash drawer.

(Cue the remodeling-angels-are-singing music...)

The measurements for most of the common Rev-a-Shelf double-bin, 35 qt trash drawers give a 19-1/4" height clearance restriction. That means after the undermount install of 9" deep sink, we would need no less than 19-1/2" of clearance to install the trash containers and hardware.

Could you PLEASE (or any others who could help) take a look at your sink/base cabinet, and your trash drawer and tell me if you think a 9" deep sink would work?

Dan is hoping to get this order placed middle of this week so if you can find a few minutes in the holiday hustle to help out this "crazy sink lady" it would be soooo appreciated.

All the best, thanks in advance!

I would have made the same decision to decrease the depth in order to accommodate a pull out trash can as I feel it is very necessary to have a handy trashcan while at the sink. It makes the motions seem-less when clearing dirty dishes, rinsing them and then putting them in the dishwasher or for when you are cutting on the cutting board and don't want everything to go down the disposal. Unfortunately I am away for the holidays and am not able to check measurements on my kitchen until the new year. Recalling spacing from memory I would say you would only be able to get a short trash can under the sink - so you might still need to have a full size elsewhere.

Question: Could you instead make the drawers to the right of the stove 1/2 the size so that a tall pull out trashcan could be installed there? You could still have 3 deep drawers for pots/pans. When pulled out it would still be where you need it to be to easily dispose of trash from the sink area. Are you going to do a reveal to make 2 tiers? Just curious. :D

BTW: I'm so glad others are getting the opportunity to work with such an amazing person as Dan and to know his company. People like him deserve to be rewarded for the effort they put into working with potential customers. It was definitely a blessing finding his company as I don't think any others would have compared.

Thank you for your quick response!

No, sadly I can't put the trash next to stove. Long story but there simply isn't space.

Dan may just be the Customer Service Winner of this century. I miss the days where companies at least seemed to care about your business. For Dan to take the time to take on this challenge and actually WANT to help is priceless. If only he made cabinets. And appliances...

Have a wonderful Christmas. I will post again with anything I learn about this after all is said and done. At least for the benefit of others.

Thanks again.
(It's true. It takes a village... Who knew they were talking about kitchen remodels!?)

cjbrewer, please post pics when it's all said and done! Next year, I'll also be ordering the 50" ledge sink from creategoodsinks.com (or maybe the 63"....my appetite is getting a little out of control on this sink thing!), and I think a 9" depth would be ideal (since it's an undermount, really you're getting a 9.5" depth which is plenty deep for most any application). The other thing I'd love to see creategoodsinks change is to increase the distance between the top ledge and the lower ledge (more like 1" instead of the 1/2"--they actually used to make them that way--pretty sure jharvey's is that way...not sure why they changed because the greater distance allows more clearance for you to easily slide something below a cutting board on the top level. As more people catch on to jharvey's ingenius hack to use double tiers/ledges of the sink, it just makes sense to give a little more distance between the two ledges).

One thing that might help you out in terms of fitting the trash below without having to customize things....what counter height are you doing? I ask only because we are doing 38" tall counters (I'm 5'10" and husband is 6'2", so that's a much more comfortable height for us) which gives us 2 more inches to work with as we design our drawers/cabinets below.

And yes, Dan IS amazing. After talking to him on the phone and seeing the amazing installations people have posted, no question this is the sink of my DREAMS--the single item that I am most excited about for our new home!

Kawerkamp, after meeting with our cabinet/kitchen designer, I learned that because we are installing frameless cabinets (from Omega) we will have a little extra space inside the cabinets. (Yeah! I thought. All of my problems are solved.) As this will allow us to install a dual bin, 35 qt roll out trash drawer UNDER the sink. This solved our issue and I was all set! Then I called Dan from Create Goods to confirm the specs for the 50" ledge sink that are on his website. I had my credit card in hand and I was oh so ready to go! Sadly, there is no longer a 2" space between the top of the sink and the built in ledge.

I was going to do a 1/2" reveal like J. Harvey so that I could utilize two tiers. Nope, no longer possible.

Ugh, this sink debacle has me thinking that I need to give up and either A) screw the budget, which has already been blown to kingdom come, and order the Galley or B) just put a bucket on the shiny quartz counters and deal with it. At this point, I I am driving myself crazy and the word "sink" has become a dirty word in my house.

In my back and forth discussions with Dan he asked if I thought people would prefer a higher ledge sink or one like I bought. I gave my input on pros and cons for both. Perhaps if the 'sink community' made their voices heard to Dan he would bring back the old model. I know I was hoping more people would love the dual tier enough to create a demand for Dan to make more accessories for the top ledge. He just wasn't sure of the market for it.

cjbrewer, totally understand your frustration. Don't give into the Galley just yet (though it is a killer sink...if price were no issue, I'd get one myself!) When I found out that creategoodsinks had shrunk the distance between the ledges (I had wanted the kind that was pictured on their website--the one j6164 has), I was super bummed because I thought the new version would be a no-go for me (I DEFINITELY want a sink with two functional tiers like the Galley), but Dan said that even with just 1/2" between the two ledges heights, the accessories would still function like a two tier--that the cutting board can be customized to be skinnier than 1/2" so that it could be rested on the lower tier and still slide under an upper cutting board. Does that make sense?--think it could still work for you?

That said, I absolutely agree with j6164--Dan should increase the distance between the two ledges so that people don't have to buy customized extra-skinny accessories. Seems like the bulk of his customers for this would be choosing between the Galley, Kohler Stages, or Creategoodsinks ledge sink, in which case, Creategoodsinks would win on versatility and price if they openly showcased the fact that it can function as a double-tier ledge sink! j6164, I'm curious--what would be the pros of the higher ledge sink? (I suppose if you only wanted to use one tier, it'd be handy to have the ledge higher so that you can rest a typical cutting board on it and have it be fairly flush with the countertop for more comfortable chopping....but if you install it as a two-tier, you get that advantage plus the second ledge, so why would anyone want to do it any other way?).

The only pro I could find for the raised ledge was that it made it more comfortable to use as it was higher. You didn't have to bend into the sink as much. I also mentioned that if the accessories to fit both tiers (interchangeable ones) did not exist, obviously the hands down choice would be the higher ledge. However, since it IS possible to create the boards similar to the galley which would interchangeably fit both tiers, it's a no brainier to go with a dual tier. If customers only wanted one tier they could still just use the boards on the top ledge and it would be flush with the countertop which is an even better scenario than just the raised ledge. I'm not sure if I made my point clear when responding to Dan as our correspondence has only been via email. If I get a chance tomorrow I will try to send him a note to clarify my thought of the sink I have being a universal sink (can be used as a 1 tier or 2 tiers). I get what he is saying about still being able to slide the cutting boards back and forth on the raised ledge...but that would not allow for the other accessories to be used on the top ledge such as the washing basin and other items such as the condiment holders. You would be limited with all of the extra accessories only being able to be used on the bottom ledge. I personally would love for the boards shown below to be cut like the galley where they would be interchangeable on each ledge. It makes for a bulkier piece, but the functionality makes up for it.

I happen to think we are all totally right about the two ledges needing to be further apart. ;-))

Here's the easy point for Create good sinks - for those who only want 1 ledge, do a positive reveal.

The cutting board is then higher, and countertops can then can be flush with whatever cutting board is used. It's infinitely easier to adjust a cutting board height then bend more metal.

For those who want 2 ledges, functionality can only be achieved with ledges further apart. With ledges further apart, the Stages sink is no longer in the competition, leaving only Galley as a viable competitor because only when the ledges are further apart can the two tiers be used together to slide the accessories over the top of each other.

I have been following this discussion and SERIOUSLY considering ordering a Create good sinks to replace my Kohler stages sink just so I could have the two functional ledges and get rid of the Kohler shelf. I can't be the only one thinking that. The ledges should only be about 1.5" apart. (Yeah, sink is almost a bad word in my house too!)

Skinnier custom accessories is a rotten option because they will shake, won't feel stable to cut on, AND one pays more for less. The skinnier cutting boards are lousy to cut on on top of the sink. I know from experience. I think that's part of why Koehler made their stages cutting board so thick. It, however, is to high for taller customers like myself. But ideal for shorter customers. Having a lower tier to place the heavy gorgeous stages cutting board on would be fabulous for me and other taller folks.

Happy holidays to all!

J6164- gorgeous kids and photo! Are those galley accessories?

J Harvey, your sink looks so beautiful! Did you make those accessories or did you order them from Dan? I love them.

It's nice to hear that you are going to give Dan feedback after you have been living with your sink. It's also very kind of everyone to stay active in these forums to help others, long after you are done doing your own research. Very kind of you.

After sleeping on it last night I have narrowed my options down to two choices. Either the 50" ledge or the 38". I would order the 50" only if I could utilize two tiers. I think without the two ledges it loses some of the usefulness and therefore I would go with a 38". In all reality 36" (after install) is still a very big sink and I would be able to easily do my prep work inside the sink. In the end it would be larger and more useful than any sink I've ever owned and I think I would be happy. It would also allow me to squeeze another 18" lower cabinet on the wall, which I could definitely use.
If the 50" was available with a lower ledge, allowing for two tiers I would splurge on it. I think the utility it offers is worth giving up cabinet space and it's worth the price.
After talking with Dan, who seems very accommodating and open to feedback, he discussed that his customers seem very happy with just the one higher tier on the 50". I think if he knew that there was a group of us that really want the double tier, he would be willing to stock it.
You all have been so great with your opinions and experiences. Lord knows my husband has reached his tolerance for conversations about sinks so I am very grateful to you all!
J. Harvey, I would be very interested to hear how your chat with Dan goes. I am going to sit on this decision over the weekend and place an order early next week. I will let you know how it goes.

Thank you amykhart! They are actually custom pieces by Dan from creategoodsinks. I truly believe Dan's the man and can make anything! I just gave him the specs of what I needed including a template with measurements I made (I'm a nerd). It was based off of some condiment inserts I found at a local restaurant supply company. I factored those measurements in and voila! It came out perfect!

J Harvey, awesome accessories (your photos were like a revelation for me when I was researching sinks)! You should send Dan the link to this thread so he can see there is some passion around the subject! Spacing the ledges as he used to (as in J Harvey's) would seal the deal for many folks who want the ultimate in function but still must design within a budget (and lots of people lurk these threads too because they come up in google searches, so I believe more of "us" exist than are active on these threads!). As amykhart expressed, creategoodsinks' double ledge would kill the competition--there are lots of single ledge options out there (Kohler Stages, Lenovo, etc.), but the Galley is the only one marketed as a double ledge and when you watch their demo videos, or flip through the in-use photos on their website, you see how totally awesome and functional that is. Dan needs to bring back the previous ledge fabrication and then get JHarvey's photos on his website to show people what a rockstar sink he makes! Creategoodsinks / Seamlesssinks are still a splurge but priced at a point where they can be justified AND they have the added bonus of the seamless drain thing which I think about every time I clean the gunky rim on mine now! We're going back to the drawing board on our houseplans and therefore delaying the start of construction....crossing my fingers that by the time I'm ready for a new sink (probably next Christmas), the 50" or 63" will be available with more spacing between the ledges!

cjbrewer,

having now my 4' sink for a year now, and using it heavily, I can tell you that 95% of the time you will love having the huge deep sink. Only when you are cleaning will you not be so pleased, but it's worth it. If it were up to me, I'd do the 50" and just put a pull out cabinet underneath it. Best of both worlds. You'll lose the drawer where the sink is, but totally worth it.

Thank you Amy, I believe you are probably right. The only reason I haven't ordered yet is because I just really don't want to settle for the single ledge. The heart wants, what the heart wants...
It's not that I am unwilling to compromise, I am. I just really don't want to. ;-)

In the interest of disclosure, I sent the following email to Dan from Create Goods. Fingers crossed it pulls at his heart strings:
------
"Hi Dan,

After chatting with you yesterday about ordering the 50" sink I must admit, I was a little heartbroken after finding out the ledge is now being placed higher. I have been discussing this sink in a forum on Houzz for a bit now and I thought you would be interested in what some are saying.

While I understand that some of your customers have been very pleased with a higher ledge, I do think there is a valid argument for the lower ledge. A lower ledge allows for dual tiers, which increases the sink functionality a great deal. If your sink operated this way, it eliminates a number of your competitors. Kohler, for one, only allows for a single upper tier. As do many others. The Galley sink, which is the clear winner with its accessories and dual tiers is cost prohibitive to many. Lowering the ledge in your sink and allowing for two ledges, at the price point you are listing, along with your seamless drain and you now have more advantages than any sink on the market. J. Harvey, who now has experience using her sink adds that creating the accessories to fit both upper and lower tiers by turning them would also add an immense amount of function. Doing so would allow you to keep your inventory options down while offering a ton of versatility to your customers.

In the end, it has been a pleasure to work with you and I want you to know that the only reason I am sharing this feedback is because I genuinely think you care. I truly believe that offering the ability for two ledges, (keeping those flanges wider on all your sinks would allow this option on all your sinks with little cost difference too.) dual purpose accessories and fair price point plus that gorgeous drain and you would surpass every single sink on the market! By far!

For me, I am ready to place my order next week. I will order the 50" if the dual ledge is an option. Without it, I have decided to order the 38" as it would allow me another cabinet on that wall and without the dual tier I think it loses some of its functionality. With it, it is definitely worth the splurge (for me). I am hopeful you will chose to add it but I will be happy to order either.

All the best.

Respectfully,

Carrie Brewer

P.S. The sink debate below is longggg. It has a lot of useful information if you are interested but you will find the recent discussion that it specific to you near the end.

I will be in touch next week, Merry Christmas.

yes, it's me with yet another question about the kohler stages 45

Check out this discussion on houzz.com





Sent with Houzz for iPad


Sent from my iPad

So I'm curious, Cjbrewer, did Dan respond to the inquiring minds of his fan club?

Do the ledges collect a lot of debris? Is the sink with multiple ledges easy to keep clean?

It's as easy as running a cloth over it. In the end, it's still a sink which is perhaps the toilet of the kitchen? It's where all the garbage goes so you don't expect it to be sparkling, but functional without catching your eye. There is a little build up in the corners and if I clean it with a rag and my nail, it comes up. In a 50" sink, it's not really what catches the eye. :) I'm happy with it and I don't feel I spend any more time cleaning it than I would have a traditional sink. ...especially with the seamless drain. I was so disgusted by the drain in my old sink (traditional style) as it would collect so much gunk.

Our build has been an incredibly drawn out process but meeting with the cabinet people tomorrow, finally. I was so disappointed to read that the ledge had been moved and I cannot justify The Galley in our budget. Called Dan this morning and he was very nice, assuring me I would like the new design. Apparently this topic is so long he never got all the way through it but I am the third caller to request the lower ledge. After a short chat, he changed his mind and will offer the original sink design with the lower ledge, possibly in addition to the 'single ledge'. When he places an order next month, he will factor in for sinks in his original design but right now he has in stock about 8 zero radius 50" sinks with the lower ledge if anyone needs one sooner. One of them has my name on it. :^))

So glad to hear llandry! I know I still love mine. I've only had it 6 months but I still give it a 2nd glance every time I walk by it. I have the 50" zero radius too by the way. :)

That's great news, llandry! I'm going to think real hard about whether I want the 50" or the 63" and put in a request to Dan! Jharvey, having lived with the 50" for a while now, if you did it all over again, do you think you would size up to the 63" (comes in double bowl configuration)....the Galley says their 5' is their best seller and I'll have about a 13' island so it would fit, but wondering if that size would be gratuitously large in your mind? (I see creategoodsinks is now offering a 72" and 81" sink--holy moly, who needs a soaker tub when you can just hop into the kitchen sink?!)

LOL - My husband tells everyone that we could bathe a small horse in our sink. :) I love the size of ours, hands down! It's the perfect size in my opinion. Anything smaller would not be functional for using the boards available. Anything larger would making cleaning it an obstacle and would require the purchasing of two faucets. It would also become the absolute focal point in my opinion. I personally love that many pieces in my kitchen are eye catchers and not just one thing - much more balanced. I love that it's large but not so large that it's obscene. I think it also makes it much easier for resale at the size it is as it's only slightly larger than a regular sink. If it was too large it might be a turn off to some that don't have the love for it that we do. I know, hard to imagine people like that exist. :)

...just my opinion - please don't hate. :D

I see what you're saying about the focal point thing....might be hard for folks to focus on anything else when they see a SIXTY-THREE inch tub in the island! ;) I'm contacting Dan to tell him to put my name on one of the 50" double-tiers!

Warning to everyone getting the 'double' tier. You have to create the reveal in your countertop in order to make the top ledge functional. State this during your template session. The sink will only arrive with one ledge [the lower ledge in the case of Kawerkamp and llandry]. The rim of the sink becomes the top ledge. I believe I got a .5" reveal in the front and back for a total of a 1" additional cutout from the actual size of the sink. No need to make a reveal to the sides.

Throwing my hat in the ring. My patented design is the only sink that has two interior ledges, so there is no water sitting at the top level against the counter top. Also, the cutting board and all accessories are below the top of the sink so you can rinse them without getting water all over the place.

That's a nice looking sink. And the accessories sitting slightly below are genius for things like colanders. Wondering how it works though, functionally, chopping veggies at a slight downward angle.

Hi there smm5525. I studied ergonomics while I was a kitchen designer. Ergonomics has been a major factor in my sink designs. I based the height of the ledges on my many years of studies. Cutting at that level does not force a downward angle. If you look in the video above, you will see there is no downward angle required. It is very comfortable to cut veggies, etc.

I actually pioneered this and many other ideas. The double tiered sink has three patents on the design. I also came up with the rear corner drain about 18 years ago. I saw many sink companies with rear corner drains this year at KBIS. I am so glad to see that.

The sinks with interior ledges, both single and double were also my ideas quite some time before everyone got on board. I have about 13 patents on my designs. Sadly, some companies have copied them figuring I am a small company and I would not get in a fight with the big guys. They are right! All in all, I am pleased to see my ideas spread through the industry.

Dino Rachiele