"Hi Anthem, and Happy 4th!" Same to you. "You don't know how much money I have. I have a lot." Good for you. All relative I guess. Glad you have a lot, buf if you have a lot, why do you fret over supporting other people ? If you have a "lot" why don't you give away most of it to the beggars with sores that seem to be so important to you ? Why are you asking others to forgo their desires when you yourself have "a lot" ? "You don't know what kind of house I can afford." You are correct. Nor did I ask or care to really know. "Maybe nicer than yours!" To each their own. Again subjective, but I seriously doubt it. "My reasoning has nothing to do with "libertarian" principles." Good. "You don't sound like a libertarian BTW you sound like a Republican" OK. . . So what difference does what I sound like ? I never said I was a libertarian, democrat, or Republican. What relevance does my political leanings have ? "...if only these terms weren't so boring and narrow. I'm an unaffiliated voter myself." Good for you, but I fail to see why that has any relevance or why you it enters this discussion. "I think you lack imagination. I don't believe humans cause global warming but I do believe in finite resources." Finite resources, yes. Humans don't cause global warming ? You're kidding right ? Maybe not directly but absolutely indirectly. Without humans, there wouldn't be anywhere near the carbon footprint that we have now. "My objection to the OPs post wasn't actually related to his elaborate (and evidently dysfunctional) wiring scheme, but to his personal environmental footprint. Try really hard to imagine the moment when technology development stops keeping up with rampant overconsumption of non-replenishable resources." rileysmom, your stated immoral objections have been noted before. It appears that anyone who spends (or apparently capable of spending) more than what you think is a reasonable amount is immoral - and that you feel the need to tell others that their are needy people in the world. I'm not sure it has to do with environmental footprint either as you don't really know his environmental/carbon foot print and/or otherwise. But seriously I don't see your concern for environmental footprint as you don't mention it anywhere. You started off as you did before over the fact that someone else spent more than what YOU consider acceptable and called it immoral. Here, let me refresh your memory "I was wondering: does anyone else think the OPs house is practically immoral? If you have enough money for 11 refrigerators (just had to have each and every one of them, huh?)". . . . Now its environmental ? "If he'd added a paragraph or so about using ICF construction (do you know what that is?) I'm quite familiar with ICF. ICF works really well for "simpler" houses and is a nightmare with more complex houses. Complex houses might be immoral to you, so that would preclude that issue for you though, right? Besides there are quite a few diverging opinions on using concrete and by extension ICF. While less wood is used, it isn't any more energy efficient than a well built/insulated house. I think the discussion of "green" revolves more around energy efficiency than the actual material being used. It's just that people choose to use insulated concrete forms because its cheaper to attain the same level of energy efficiency than its counterpart - but again with significant drawbacks (especially when it comes to flexibility or automation, which the original poster did do (or attempt to do)). "low VOC finishes" low-voc is definitely human healthier, but it remains to be seen if it has any real relevance to environmentally healthier. The majority of low or no voc paint has enough enviro-unfriendly ingredients that no matter what you do it isn't environmentally better. It's just less voc's being emitted into the household. "or even...energy star appliances" I don't know his appliances or items, but usually anyone who is into automation is going to have fairly high-end appliances which almost certainly are "energy star" appliances. By the way, energy star is a MINIMUM standard. It's such a poor standard that I am not even going to get into it. It's meant to establish a minimum standard so that the average consume shopping for a refrigerator isn't going to be ripped off by an energy inefficient refrigerator. Most anyone who spends big bucks on autmation is going to be buying in the subzero, viking, GE monogram, Liebherr type of level which are all well beyond energy star minimum ratings.. . . "for all 11 refrigerators and 4 dishwashers and maybe 2 laundry rooms) I'm sure his megamansion wouldn't have chapped me quite so badly." And that gets back to the basic question - Why does someone doing beyond YOUR levels dictate them being immoral ? People can spend what they want. If you haven't walked a day in their shoes - why are you calling them immoral for building their house ? Hey, you only need one toilet in a house. How many do you have ? Is it immoral for you to put more than one in your house ? It's all relative depending upon where you are coming from. I just don't get where you think everyone who does a bit more than you, or spends more than you, or is less energy efficient as you is "immoral". "Note this has nothing to do with how much it cost to build and how much it is appraised for now." Not what you said earlier. Should I refresh your memory again ? "Well, I do get a laugh out of something I read somewhere at some time...maybe The Economist? predicting that these whopping huge houses eventually will all be subdivided when the gated communities become the gated slums. Probably this subconscious thought prompted my comment about the poor and downtrodden." I really doubt it in our lifetimes or the next. Most of these won't last beyond a generation or two. And even then, it gets much more complicated with property lines. You're more likely to see teardowns than you will of change of use. The reason you see "mansions" (true sense of the word) in the past being used for multi-tenant is in high-density areas. You don't see today's megamansions in high-density areas. you might call them high-density, but even if everyone bred like rabbits and doubled the current population - it wouldn't change suburban america. Perhaps if you increased the population 10 fold, but we're talking many more generations beyond now.

Hi Bethesdamanman, My apologies then, Dave. I thought that I had recalled you posting on the other board that mortgage rates would stay low for years and years, and that we would never return to the high rates of years past. My error. Eeeesschhh .... well.... actually... kinda sorta, YES.... your apologies in this case are NOT warranted. Herein lies a case of "text failing where a verbal conversation *may* have worked better." I've never said rates would stay low "well... forever".... I HAVE said rates (30 FRM rates to be precise) will unlikely climb over 7% in our lifetimes. I *STILL* stand by that.... albeit, I am now offering that we are entering a territory of government-induced inflation at levels I (perhaps naively) thought the United States political system was above. If we continue down the path of dollar-dilution that we've begun accelerating along, there are only two end-game results; A) we reverse course back out of it before we self-destruct in revolution, B) we self-destruct (and the devil we do not know is always a potential problem.) *IF* we successfully reverse and dig ourselves out of the hole of trouble our most recent past and our current government administrations are hell-bent on digging us into... there are only two ways of "sopping back & vacuuming up" the diluted unbacked funny-money that has been injected out into the system; A) The Treasury collects more taxes than it provides to the government to spend, and/or, B) The Fed increases interest rates higher than its blended payout on the treasury bonds (and then some... the greater the positive income spread to the Fed, the more painful to the "fixed-income retired crowd" which is our baby-boomer bubble... who will rally with AARP-sponsored pitchforks.) Both A & B will be met with *MASSIVE* resistance from the only crowd that the poloticos *KNOW* will consistently show up to vote, and have almost unlimited spare time to write, call, email, and generally pester the daylights out of the politicians; The Seniors. SO.... I've learned to never rely on "common sense" when it comes to anticipating "government logic" (an oxymoron if there ever was one.) Obama has enlisted the original architect of option B... Paul Volcker... as a "senior economic advisor." ("Senior" may (MAY) work somewhat to our advantage here... as Gramps Volcker *MIGHT* have some age-gained sensitivity to his classmate comrade's plight.) Volcker is the one who decided to fight inflation in the 1970's by driving short-term interest rates up to the 20%'s... The late '70's and early '80's result was that Volcker recaptured (in a VERY painful way) the excess liquidity (flooding of funny money) our country created by going off the gold standard and adopting a "weak dollar" policy through the 1960's. WHAT WILL WA DC DO??????????????? I dunno.... (I know what I pray/chant/meditate they will do...) *IF* the government (both the loonie left & jackthug right) get OUT of the way of the naturally balancing markets... then my expectations and predictions stand, with virtually my 100% confidence. My fears are that the United States idea of a market-based capitalist self-righting system has been a grand and wonderful social experiment... but that the human frailties (compounded in mob psychology) are sabotaging the underlying DNA strands that made it possible to stand. My COMFORTING REALIZATION... is that despite my egoistic pride for being part of a "successful system".... even if that system turns out to be a decaying failure, INDIDIVIDUALLY I and my family, and those I guide, can still retain their own personal success and quality of life. Cheers, Dave Donhoff Leverage Planner

Tricia, I'm so sorry about the list that disappeared! I hate it when that happens! One of the things I love about Firefox is that those things are sometimes recoverable. (Either following the back arrow, or closing and reloading.) The MAGMA cookware is interesting. Same kind of thought as the Cristel that KitchenDetective mentioned. Seems to have good variety, too. So I've been trimming my list and I think I have it down all the way. I thought I'd share. No wok required, but it could hand half into the window, next to the dishwasher. :) It's still a really long list, but I think everything actually fits, and pretty easily. More so than the people! When four people sit down to dinner in my shipping container, the table and chairs are big enough for the people, but there's no real room to maneuver and everyone has to move if someone needs to get up. :) So, for cookware storage I have a set of 24" drawers, for the dishes I have a shelf, and between the studs storage for glasses and mugs. There's also a little storage above the fridge and oven, but I don't want to use it for cookware other than the 20" wood carving board. The "pantry" is three wire baskets in a moveable cart with drop leaves that tucks away between the side of the cooktop cabinet and the washer door. I kind of cheated and used my own 24" self imported induction cooktop. After reading Johnliu's list, I just couldn't deal with the single element Miele 15" or the other, wimpy dominoes. The paper towels would go in a basket in the cart, which pulls out and becomes an island with the drop leaves up. The foil, parchment and plastic bags can go in the between the studs storage, along with small bottles and jars, or in the cart drawer with the tea towels and pot holders. There's room for cleaning supplies, including: telescoping broom and mop compact mop bucket cleaning supply caddy with nesting bucket collapsible 13 gallon lidded trash can--a frame which holds the bag, then flattens to 2.6" Sponge holder suctions to sink side. Press-with-back-of-hand soap dispenser sits on counter. Clothes iron hides behind a sliding cover on the shelves folding Ironing board and Drying rack hang on bathroom door. Side of shelving case is reinforced and has hooks to hold the four chairs, when folded, 6" thick, total. Top drawer has a compact flatware organizer which can hold the four settings of seven pieces and five hostess pieces: tea spoons soup spoons salad forks dinner fork table knives appetizer spoons appetizer forks serving fork serving spoon slotted serving spoon sugar spoon butter knife Utensils: Infrared/themocouple thermometer Shun Classic Hollow-ground 8" chef's knife with edge guard Shun Classic honing steel (I decided the cook could take the knife out for proper sharpening rather than making room for a stone set) Normann Copenhagen nut cracker Rachael Ray peeler with attached vegetable brush Norpro stamped steel church key for...

Button ton not but nut bout Badminton (in the spirit of the olympic)