The Hayfield has there low-e on surface #2, they use 366 glass, and I think a dura-lite spacer. There Richlin vinyl casement has a U- value of 0.23.

Wrong. Hayfield does not use 366 nor or they using a surface 4 hard coat.
If that were the case they would'nt be sporting a .24 uValue with a CR number of 65.

brockwin,

Care to elaborate on your "Wrong"...?

Would be happy to. Low e 366 would never allow an shgc to be 28.

When I looked on nfrc.org I couldn't even find a hayfield richlin dh with the .24. Maybe I missed it. If that is true and it has a cr of 65, certainly it is not a surface 4 coating. What is the shgc? Is it perhaps a 366-ish glass from another company like guardian?
If you have the info please share.

Homeseal- its impossible to obtain a .28 shgc using 366 and thats the number on the hayfield sticker along with a ,28 U and 65 CR.
Go to hayfield window site and download the brochure which shows the casement. Those numbers also squash the surface 4 theory.

They look like they are casements but I don't find a Richlin casement with a U-Factor of 0.24 either.

Looks like it is Guardian glass according to the NFRC.

http://search.nfrc.org/search/cpd/cpd_search_detail.aspx?cpdnum=HWD-A-18

I think that the Surface 4 question was already answered by the CR number that HomeSealed pointed out.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://search.nfrc.org/search/cpd/cpd_search_detail.aspx?cpdnum=HWD-A-18

Brock, that is why I asked about the shgc. Secondly, you are clearly confusing two different glass packages. U factor of .28 and shgc of .28 is not what the OP has. He/she has .24 u factor which would indicate one of 3 possibilities:
1) a surface 4 coating (a low cr would reveal that)
2) 366 or a similar coating with low shgc
Or 3) if it has a high cr and moderate to high shgc that would be a VERY impressive u factor. That is also unlikely despite the fact that I beleive that the richlin is pretty solid.

my mistake above when I said dh, the op has casements.

lol about the coat tails... See my first post on this thread where I pointed out the reduced condensation resistance.... Mr WoW was correct in crediting me for pointing that out.

To the OP, do you have sticker from one of the windows? It may not be relevant to you, but to satisfy our curiousity we'd be interested to know the full scope of the thermal ratings on that window (u factor, shgc, CR) to determine what type of glass is used... or perhaps the dealer gave you a CPD number for reference with the NFRC?
Give us an update on the condensation as well :)

This post was edited by HomeSealed on Thu, Dec 18, 14 at 10:35

My mistake on the glass, Hayfield does indeed use Guardian as brokwine so kindly pointed out. The Richlin is listed at 0.23 U-value. We also all know that Homesealed is riding my coat tails. That is what we are...

Hmmm....
Don't give him too much credit Todd, he merely pointed out that you were wrong and then offered no further info. Wow id'ed the fact that it is guardian glass.
Thanks for posting that chart. It doesn't show shgc though? .... It incinuates that there is a .04 drop in u factor (.28 -.24) simply by adding foam frames. That's phenomenal if that's the case. Interested to see if those two units have the same shgc, or if they up it to guardian's 366 variant between point a and point b
Me and Todd are bff's forever! Lol

Clima Guard 71/38 for glass with a shgc of 0.28 on Hayfield and 0.25 on Richlin.
How can we be wrong?

Thanks Todd, i only pointed it out because it just did'nt make any sense.
good find on your part. I knew it could'nt be 366.

Not saying that you are wrong at all Todd, just trying to piece things together (if that's what you even meant?)
If that CA gets a .24 u factor, .28shgc, and CR65, that's very impressive. I knew that they had some good numbers, but I never took that close of a look. It is not a popular offering in my area.

I still don't see a .24 actually listed anywhere, but it looks like there are a couple packages listed around .23 and .25 with good shgc and CR.

@Drcompanion, looks like a very good window. FWIW, that just galvanizes my opinion that the humidity in the house is too high.

This post was edited by HomeSealed on Thu, Dec 18, 14 at 14:50

brockwin: "Would be happy to. Low e 366 would never allow an shgc to be 28."

When measured in a glass-only IG configuration, 366 has an SHGC of between .27 and .28 depending on airspace width and air/argon mix, so its not a stretch to say that 366 cannot have a .28 SHGC when used in a window since SHGC calcs include the entire RO. However, that isnt what I asked.

I was simply asking for an elaboration of the data you posted since there was no reference where it came from and you were offering data that hadn't been mentioned by anyone else.

And btw, it is entirely possible to achieve an entire window SHGC of .28 using 366, you just have to know how to do it.

Also, and not saying they are, but the U values in the chart look an awful lot like center-of-glass numbers to me.

This post was edited by oberon on Thu, Dec 18, 14 at 18:24

Pfffft...!!!

Like you know anything Oberon.

Who do you think you are..? Like some kind of glass specialist or something...?

LAUGHING!!!!!!!

Thank you, WoW!!!

play nice guys.

yes ma'am

Why would think the U-values are center of glass since the U-values change for different types of windows with the same glass and they change with foam filling as well? Guardian list a U value of 0.24 which is what the casement in the Hayfield is, the casement for the Richlin is 0.23 and the double hung is 0.26, all of these numbers are with the foam fill.
On a side note, it is somewhat interesting looking at the air infiltration numbers as well, the slider and patio doors list excellent numbers that are below there single and double hungs. The double hungs do utilize a pocket sill .

I checked on NFRC and the numbers are indeed total unit. Pretty impressive.
My confusion was that the chart posted is the Hayfield line, but the OP has the Richlin line. Different ratings... and I still don't see a Richlin with the .24 number, but I guess that is neither here nor there.

@ Todd, is it still a pocket sill? I only see interior views, but it looks pretty low profile for a pocket sill. I know it had been in the past.

I will have to check, pretty sure the Richlins do., Thought the OP had the Hayfields because of the U-value that was listed.

I didn't mean to imply that I thought that they were center-of-glass numbers, just that they reminded me of cog numbers.

My comment was intended to be simply an interesting observation (keep in mind that I am a bit (or a lot per my DW) of a nerd about this stuff. I probably could have worded it a little differently...anyway,

consider a dual pane IG with 3mm glass and 7/16" to 9/16" airspace and using cardinal's published cog numbers:

The chart lists clear/air/clear and no foam at U.46 -.47 which is interesting since publshed cog for the same make up is .48 - .49. So the chart is suggesting that the whole window is slightly better than the cog? Or just assume clear/air/clear at .5 and be done with it.

LoE/air/clear (chart) list U.32. An IG using Cardinal's 180 would have a U.32 cog in the same configuration. Of course changing to 270/272 or 366 would yield slightly lower U values than would 180 in the same conditions.

Adding argon per the chart drops to U.27 to .29. CoG when using 180 with argon are .27 to .28, but using 3/8" or 5/8" spacing yields U.29.

Adding foam to the frame in the chart drops U values to .24 to .27. Changing to 270/272 or 366 changes U values to .24 -.26.

And that's really all I meant when I said that the U values in the chart remind me a lot of CoG numbers.

Sorry for the confusion!!

This post was edited by oberon on Fri, Dec 19, 14 at 21:16

Pocket

Pocket

{{gwi:2138165}}

Thanks for checking Todd. The u-factor corresponds to Hayfield, but the original post says Hayfield/Richlin. I guess that could go either way...

@oberon: Don't let it happen again! LOL... queue Eric with another cat pic

I'm still shocked at the drop in u factor just by adding foam.The 701 casement lists a .29 without and drops to .24 with foam, that's .05 drop!

Did someone call my name...?

The Richlin brochure list there 600 DH as a sloped sill, so maybe that one is a hybrid sill? Gonna have to look at it closer.

lmao, yep

OMG alfalfa...

gotta say I love reading Oberon's posts.

glad to see y'all playing so nicely again, you know
Santa is watching...

but wait a minute Oberon...what foam?
"Adding foam to the frame in the chart drops U values to .24 to .27"
I missed that lesson.
can you clarify that for me?

tia!

LAUGHING real time!!!

HomeSealed, I suspect I will do it again, but if I do feel free to ask Eric to bring out the cat. It's totally worth it!!

Hi ERLA,

You're right, Santa is watching and I am betting that WoW has a picture that he can share that proves it too.

LOL per foam, okay I didn't word that as well as I could have...how about if I said "changes" the U value? ;-)

I am not amused.

Well, I step away for a couple of days and the thread blows up!

I erred when I said a U-factor of .24. I have Richlin foam-filled double pane, low-e argon casement windows. According to the chart on their website, and posted here, these are .23.

http://richlinwindow.com/documents/Richlin%20performance%20chart2013.pdf

This was one of the driving factors in my decision to buy these windows. They also have superb air infiltration numbers. The construction is solid. They remind me a lot of the Soft-Lite windows I looked at but found to be kind of expensive.

These windows are made in Hayfield, MN. They have three brand names/variations (that I know of). Richlin Windows are made for the homeowner replacement window market via authorized dealers and are their top of the line brand. They have a spacer called Duralite, which is supposed to be better than Super Spacer. Hayfield windows share a lot of the same construction practices but are made for new construction, performance numbers aren't quite as good. You can buy the Hayfield window at Menards under the brand name Richland, by special order only. I had one of my bedroom casement windows quoted through Menards and it was significantly less than the price of the window from my installer. He was not too pleased that Hayfield Window Co. was selling their windows through Menards.

Anyway, back to the condensation problem. I dialed the humidifier down to about 22 (from a setting of 30) and the next morning the amount of condensation was cut in about half. Since then the weather has warmed up here in Minneapolis, it's been in the upper 30's, lower 40's and so I haven't seen any condensation. I'll have to wait until it gets a bit colder to see if lowering the humidifier setting will solve the problem. I suspect it has, but need to verify.

Keep us posted and tell us some more about the home or post up some pictures.

Plants, aquariums, and other humidity generating apparatus can really drive up that number.

Nice numbers, but availability at Menards will be the downfall of these guys IMO. Quality installers don't want to compete with a product that the neighborhood hack can buy at Menards and install for less than beer money. It will kill their reputation also. Maybe its a great window, maybe not. The fact that it can be sold at a low enough price for Menards to put it on theior shelves is not a good sign though. Also, when consumers start complaining about it in droves because it was installed badly (they don't know that), it won't be good. Also, all casements have superb air numbers for the most part. Not trying to rain on your parade, just a commentary on the information that you added. Hopefully they do well for you.

Not all casements have superb air numbers, even some of Soft-Lites lines dip to 0.07 and a lot of lower-mid tiered vinyl and high end wood windows are all usually above 0.01. It would be safe to say that most high end vinyl casements have superb air numbers but not all. The OP said they were available special order only and I highly doubt they will ever be stocked on the shelves. My guess is that Menards will have little effect on the reputation due to the small volume that I would assume they sell.

toddinmn, you are correct. Menards does not stock them on the shelves. I had to go into the store and ask about them. Even then, the sales guy had to go get the manager to ask him about them. Then it took four days to get a quote back.

WoW, will keep you and the board updated on condensation as soon as it gets cold here. We are having a brown Christmas in Minneapolis. No snow on the ground and it's 37 degrees today (Christmas Eve.)

Keep us posted.

Temps got down into the 20's last weekend and condensation is still present. This morning it is -7 degrees so I dialed the humidifier down to 10 (was at 30, then turned down to 22). I agree with you guys that it's probably too much humidity. I hesitate to turn off the humidifier because I fear it will get too dry inside and lead to dried nasal passages, sore throats at night, static electricity sparks from walking on carpet, etc. Probably will end up getting a hygrometer as was suggested so I can really understand the humidity situation.

TDC,

We had -14F on the east side of the St Croix last night and we also had condensation and even ice form on some (but not all) of our windows and patio doors last night as well.

Sometimes you just have to decide to accept the fact that you will have some condensation at the level of indoor humidity that you consider "reasonable" or else you have to find a way either to lower your indoor moisture-level even when it is already closing in on "nose bleed" or invent a method of warming your window glass.

If you run a humidifier in winter in Minnesota, and you have a tight house, then you WILL (with a few specific exceptions) have condensation on your windows when the outside temps begin to bottom out.

To fully eliminate window condensation in a typical Minnesota winter you can pretty much choose between warming the glass when mother nature decides to have some winter fun with the temperatures, or you can cover your windows with "insulating film" which will almost certainly eliminate window condensation when applied correctly by blocking interior moisture from the glass.

However window film can be a bit of a pain to install and it will prevent you from using the windows until you decide to remove it.

When it gets cold enough, lowering the interior moisture level to prevent window condensation becomes problimatical from both comfort and practicality considerations.

Warning, personal experience ahead:

I have a picture window (north-facing) with a couple of mulled casements to each side of it - very common configuration. Curtains are open and shades are about halfway up.

The living room couch sits directly in front of this window and this morning there was condensation, and ice formation, on the bottom edge of the glass on all three windows almost exactly to the level of the height of the back of the couch. You could have drawn a straight line along the top of the condensation to match the height of the couch. Not a coinicidence. And, btw, there is no condensation behind the half-lowered shades.

With the exception of the one picture window I have a combination of casements and horizontal sliding windows. ALL of the casements had condensation this morning and NONE of the sliders had condensation.

Simply, casements are proud of the exterior wall and it's hard to keep the glass warm when the temperatures get ridiculous, whereas the sliders all have storm windows and they are closer to the inside of the home resulting in warmer glass than the casements - despite the fact that the sliders leak a lot more air than do the casements.

You have two options. You can either remove moisture from your air - which lowers the dew point - or else you can warm the glass to a temp above the dew point.

Glass temp...

"Sometimes you just have to decide to accept the fact that you will have some condensation at the level of indoor humidity that you consider "reasonable" or else you have to find a way either to lower your indoor moisture-level even when it is already closing in on "nose bleed" or invent a method of warming your window glass."
-oberon

That's the money shot right there.
Ultimately you want the humidity level in your home to be comfortable, yet low enough to prevent condensation on your windows. Unfortunately, here in WI and in your area there are times when both of those goals can't be achieved even with very efficient windows. At some point you will need to make the air a little drier than you prefer if eliminating the condensation is your main goal, or just deal with a little moisture on the windows if comfort is paramount. Personally, I try to get the Rh as low as I can stand, and whatever condensation still happens is what it is. I do not run a humidifier, but do have a very tight house.

Temp is -3 this morning. Apparently dialing down the humidifier is working. The amount of condensation was about one-half of yesterday's amount. Also, we used the gas grill outside our patio door to cook supper so there was a lot of air being exchanged, meaning drier air was introduced into the house.

Yes, it appears I will need to find the balancing point between humidity and condensation. Nice thing about vinyl windows is I don't need to worry about the condensation rotting out the wood window sills!

Sounds good.

When the temps get that low, it is tough either way.

Find a way to stir the air even when not be conditioned.

Be aware that if the interior humidity is high enough to get condensation on the windows, the same thing could be going on to some degree inside of your walls, especially with no insulative sheathing in place to help lower the dew points of cold structural surfaces. The point is high interior humidity may be causing hidden problems on top of visual ones.

It's been very cold here lately, and there is no condensation forming on the windows. It's also very dry inside my house--nasal passages are always dry, getting static electricity sparks from the carpet, etc. So I turned the humidifier up a smidgen. Looking for that sweet spot of minimal condensation and minimal discomfort.

I wouldn't worry about your walls or try to make any direct corollary between the two.

Condensation on a window surface that is directly bridged to the exterior and directly exposed to indoor humidity is not indicative of what is going on inside the wall cavity.

+1 to WoW's comments.

It sounds like you are on the right track :)

Sure! If you want to assume that the same humid air is staying put and not traveling through your walls or other building cavities. Youre also welcome to assume that any possible build in hidden places will dry out in time. Usually it does but..

Brian,

No offense but if we are going to throw the idea out there that a home showing window condensation may have the same thing going on inside the walls, you are going to need to clarify and quantify that.

Every person that reads this post from now on is going to think that their walls are full of moisture and that simply isn't true.

Diffusion through painted sheets of drywall is minimal and without any clarification of what the exterior cladding is, it is impossible to make any such claim.

Insulated sheathing is a new concept and development and homes have stayed dry for 100's of years. Yes, drafty homes usually make for dry walls but inefficient.

The tighter the home, the more potential for moisture issues inside the home, but many claddings can dry to outside and do so.

Air leakage also carries with it about 100X more moisture than diffusion so if you have a tight interior wall, the amount of moisture inside the wall (via diffusion) is minimal.

I agree with everything youve said! Its a good visual indicator that moisture is too high. It happens to even the best of windows in very cold weather but problems from these conditions do happen and is an illustration of problems associated with high humidity in cold weather. And yes, its the air leakage causing most problems, not diffusion.