I had to laugh about the lawn mowing thing. I am the eldest of 3 girls. I had never, ever even dreamed of mowing the lawn or shoveling snow. The latter remains unexperienced. Mow!? Shovel!? "I don't think so," she replied disdainfully. However, never say never. When we moved out here, DH was still working 7 days a week, sometimes 16 hours a day. Waiting for him to mow was just plain (crazy) rude. We didn't have the $$ to pay someone for 3 hours' worth of mowing, so..... He once said that he had to call my mom with the weirdest thing he'd ever heard me say: "I'm going to mow the lawn, then I'm going to Wal-Mart." O. M. G. But my lawn's mowed, I have my seasonal bummy poision ivy, and it looks purty. My lawn, not my bummy. (You forget that ladies also don't spit, pick their noses [or bottoms] or teeth, have gas, burp, use the word "cheap" [unless in relation to another's look or behavior], swear, wear curlers in public, and many other elements of deportment. I guess admitting to mowing the lawn is something my mom has gotten over. Or, being a lady, is just chosing to ignore it. Out of sight...)

"...cindylou, imagine if you can what it would be like after all you and your husband have experienced with your MIL if your own children grew up and estranged you..." If I had a child who estranged me, I would not think it had anything to do or not to do with my MIL. I would not think that they owed me a relationship because I tolerated my MIL (maybe I misunderstood what you meant by connecting my MIL into that idea). If my child estranged me suddenly and with no warning and if I asked and they said, "You know", and I truly didn't, I would make the assumption they didn't quite didn't know themselves. That they have feelings and upsets they don't quite understand themselves and that they needed time away from me to work them out. (This is assuming there's no mental illness or addiction. If there is mental illness or addiction, then I do know and frankly, maybe I'm just getting too old, but I've seen the hopelessness and heartache of addiction and mental illness, and I think I'd just be grateful for being cut out). More likely, I would have been told the answer. And I'd accept it, even if it didn't make sense. "Because you wore blue to my kindergaren graduation." Huh? Ok. I don't think I'd argue. I can't imagine arguing with an adult child. They are an adult. I barely argue with them now. My parents didn't argue with me, I never saw them argue with their parents. My aunts and uncles on both sides didn't argue with either their adult children or their parents. It's just not done. I can't imagine it. There are differences of opinion and hurt feelings and misunderstandings and on rare occasions, conflict between adult members of my extended family. Of course there is. But everyone seems to understand a basic rule. I live my life and you live yours, and I can offer my opinion and it's fair if you don't follow it. The person who's business it is, gets the final say. The person who has the most responsibility gets to decide. The person who takes the biggest risk chooses. We are none of us perfect people; but we don't squabble and manipulate and gang up on each other and form one alliance and then another to force family members to do what we want. And we don't stab each other in the back. That's such a bizarre concept to me. And we are very close--without melodrama. There's not a lot of conflict. So if a child told me, "I don't want contact from you because you wouldn't let me go to Aruba on spring break." I'd respect that. I'd figure sooner or later they'd understand. Or if not, sooner or later it wouldn't matter any more. I would absolutely believe that eventually they'd come back. Not the way they were, it wouldn't be the same relationship, but had we stayed close, it wouldn't be the same relationship at 30 as it was at 20 or 10. Would I miss them and be hurt. You bet. But I'd be comforted that I would see them again and focus on the other blessings of my life while I waited. I truly believe that if you love something you let it go, and if it loves you, it will come back. And if it doesn't come back, you never had it to begin with. If after 10 or 20 years there was still no contact, I'd have to face the fact that it's probably for the best. We didn't have the relationship I thought we had; I didn't know them, and we obviously weren't a match even if they have half my DNA. Do I hope to have close, intimate relationships with the families of my adult children? Of course. But I will be happy with any non exploitive relationship my children feel comfortable with. I may want more contact or less, depending on the personalities, but perfection doesn't happen in relationships; it's like tension between togetherness and individuality that has to be worked out in a marriage. When your children are adults with families, you renegotiate your relationship, and if it REALLY doesn't work for someone, you might have to walk away. Sad, painful, but realistic. I have a coworker who is retiring and moving to be closer to her daughter and grandchildren. They are delighted to have her. On a recent house hunting trip she was dismayed that her daughter seemed to expect/demand a lot of babysitting from her. She's not moving there to take on the responsibility of babysitting her grandchildren, altho she does hope to see a lot of them and participate in their lives. Things were tense as she attempted to come to understanding with her daughter. She came back and asked if things don't work out in the other state, can she have her job back. I sometimes in the past had wondered if she's a meddling MIL so much does she talk about her grandchildren. But I see now she's got a life outside them and is not exploiting her daughter's family to fill the emptiness (if any) in her own life. And she's not going to allow herself to be exploited by her daughter however much she loves her family. She sees her standing up for herself may result in a cut off; and I respect her handling of this delicate situation. I'm sure it will all work out, but I can see myself in her place; in any relationship, there's always the possibility that you or the other person will walk away for whatever reason. You may think, oh yeah, you are so philosophical, just wait until it happens to you. Well, like anything, what choices do you have: you either accept with grace or you don't. How does not accepting with grace help anything? The ends don't justify the means. Bullying, manipulating, harassing, yelling...none of that is going to help. If you accept with grace, while you are waiting for the problem to resolve itself enough so the child talks to you again with a willingness to compromise, at least you can still have meaning and pleasure in your life. It also gives you time to reflect as well. It might not be that you did something WRONG, it's just that you don't mesh well. And you can measure in the absence how you and your adult child's family don't mesh and what you are willing to compromise to make the relationship more pleasant for EVERYONE. "Mom, you can never be unsupervised with my kids." "Why?" "Because you are a taurus". Huh? Well, that makes no sense to me. But why jeopardize my supervised visits with my grandchildren which can be wonderful by arguing if being a taurus prevents one from being a good grandma or not. Why fill that time with strife and anger and posturing and demands and righteousness and counter accusations when I can be on the floor playing Candyland and angling for the chocolate swamp or coloring in Barbie coloring books or stacking Lincoln logs as high as the sky. Who cares if DIL is glaring at me when my darling grandson and I are holding our breathes to see if we can make a Pixie Stix teepee? I believe letting them go gracefully gets them back eventually, and if it doesn't, the relationship would have just caused heartache all around anyway, estranged or not.

I got no assistance with anything. Paid full ticket tuition on school and day care. We only had minimal health insurance because Dad kept dropping insurance, so I basically paid for all out of pocket medical (which was virtually 100%). Thank God, my kids were pretty healthy and did not need braces or have a lot of cavities either. I did not stress the importance of education at all. I stressed the importance of God, and being the best where God put you at that moment (e.g. you are a son/daughter, brother/sister, and student - strive to be the best at those things that you can be). I helped my children very little in school and let them experience failure, frustration, and humiliation when they messed up. I taught them personal responsibility. My biggest priority as far as the divorce was concerned was to keep their life as peaceful, tranquil, and happy as possible. Those are things money can't buy. I was averaging $25,000/year (sometimes as much as $32,000, sometimes as little as $18,000/year) with $500/month in child support for three children. I was self-employed so my tax rate was higher. My mortgage, taxes, and utilities ran about $1,200/month. We didn't go out to eat, go to the movies, or anything. I would sell my children's clothes to a resale shop and purchase new ones with the money. Anything we weren't using got sold in a garage sale or through the newspaper. My children were completely unaware (and don't believe it to this day) that we were living on the poverty line. In our agreement I had sole-custody and as far as college went it was whoever could afford what for college. My job gave my daughter a $2,500/year scholarship for being a National Merit Scholar. Legally I wouldn't have been responsible for anything. As far as my ex goes, he brought me back to court for everything. Taking my son to Little League (but he wouldn't), insisting my children not attend Catholic church, etc... Anything and everything he could think of. At one point over the course of two years, I was averaging court 3 times a month. My ex is a malignant narsicist sociopath. He said that my daughter should get to go to whatever school she wanted to, blah, blah, blah... Because she earned it with the grades. Forget about the debt that she had to take out etc... Forget about being a parent and looking out for the kids long term well-being (e.g. being saddled with $50,000+ debt after graduation). He just did it to undermine our relationship, alienate me from the children, seek revenge, sabatoge and destroy the children. He didn't want the kids to turn out better than the his kids from his second marriage, because it would prove him to be the liar he was. He was always asking the kids who they though was 'cooler', got my kids to smoke pot, and got my son hooked on porn. My kids hung around with good kids, were respectful, got good grades, were not behavior problems. The bad influence in my kids life was their father. The court case went no where. I just didn't go and nothing happened. Everyone hated him through the years, judges, my lawyer, and even other lawyers would come up to me. He had no leg to stand on. He's a jerk, what can I say.

Lovemykids Too, I'm so sorry you are going through this. There are a lot of parents who have been through similar things, so don't feel like you are the only one. We went through some difficult times with one of my kids, so I sympathize with you and I have advice. First, nurture and take care of your marriage. For a lot of couples these kinds of problems take a toll on a marriage. Next, even if your son won't go to counseling, you can go. Particularly if he has anxiety and/or depression you may want to get some tips on how to handle this from a professional. If you haven't been to counseling before then keep in mind you may have to try more than one to find someone you can relate to. My husband and I found a wonderful counselor who had been through a lot of the same things our child had been through, but the first counselor we tried was a useless waste of time. If it were my child, I would consider paying for a cell phone for my son. It would be worth it to me to be able to call him directly if he went back to live at his girlfriend's house. But you don't owe him a cell phone and don't pay for one if you don't want to. In my opinion you are doing the right thing about the car. If the car becomes a major point of contention then I might even sell it or keep it and store it somewhere else. Since I'm not familiar with the situation I am just guessing, but perhaps the situation might partially resolve itself as time goes on? I can't imagine your son's girlfriend's parents like having an unemployed 19 year old man around who can't help pay for food and has no car. Hmmm, sleeping on the couch, sharing a car, burden on girlfriend's family....betcha there's more to that story than he's telling. Maybe girlfriend will lose interest after a few months if he has no more money. I would talk to the counselor about what to do when your son swears at you and says he hates you. Our daughter never did that and I have no idea what to do but I would be very reluctant to allow a grown man (or woman), even my own child, swear at me and say he hates me while he was standing in my own house. I would sit down with my husband and my son and work out a formal agreement between adults who live in the same house. I would go to a neutral location, like a local McDonald's, sit down with a cup of coffee and a notepad and tell him that you respect the fact that he is an adult. Ask him to tell you what he thinks parents should expect from an adult son living in their house and what adult sons should expect from their parents. Hear him out. Stay calm. Although he is sort of an adult, he's a very young adult, so model the behavior you wish he would use. If he starts getting angry or if you start getting angry, you can always stop the session with "I'm glad we sat down and talked together, it has been very helpful to hear what you think, let us think about it and we'll talk again tomorrow". If he is talking without swearing or yelling then be sure to end the session before he gets tired or overwhelmed and the situation deteriorates. Resist the urge to keep pushing through because he's been *good*. At this point you want to start a pattern of reasonable communication more than you want the agreement, although you do want the agreement. Another tool in your toolbox is "convince me". Instead of convincing HIM that you are right, ask him to convince you. I think I would find something that you think you could compromise on and let him convince you before I started on something bigger. Another great phrase is "you are an adult and I know you will figure this out". Also excellent is "what is your plan", a very versatile phrase. Also good is "you are an adult, adults contribute to the household they live in, how do you plan to contribute to this household". Adults living in a household pay their way, either rent, chores, or both. My daughter asked to discuss our issues by email and I was reluctant to do that, but it worked out much better for her and surprisingly also for her dad. We handled some in person but some in email. Work out consequences for infractions, yours and his. Don't agree to consequences that you won't follow through on. Don't tell him he can't live there if he doesn't mow the grass unless you're prepared to make him move out if he doesn't mow the grass. Not all consequences have to be negative. Maybe one of his consequences has to be finding a joke that makes the whole family laugh, maybe he has to figure out how to make ganache for the family or you get to wake him up with a silly song in the morning. Maybe the family has to eat dinner and talk to one another only through sock puppets, or he has to learn to say a phrase of your choice in Italian. Or give him a choice out of 3 things. I picked something that my daughter could not do without laughing and that worked like magic. She couldn't wallow in her role as martyred victim if she was laughing. Stay calm. Make sure you and your husband are on the same page. If your son starts swearing, yelling, saying hateful things or if you start getting angry you can always tell him that you are stepping away for now until you can all talk like reasonable adults. Your theme is reasonable, calm, adult. It may take some time to change the dynamic and don't expect overnight change. Since your son has anxiety and depression, it would probably be very helpful if there is some kind of exercise or outdoor activity he would do with your husband, you, or a sibling. Kayaking? Rock climbing or bouldering? Disc golf? Geocaching? That phone Pokemon thing together? I doubt you will accomplish anything positive by criticizing the girlfriend. Just try not to dwell on the girlfriend in your head. I tried very hard to remember that I taught my daughter to do the right thing, and if she wasn't doing it that was on her, not her boyfriend. Your best hope is that you taught your son well and hopefully he will recognize the flaws in his girlfriend over time and they will either both grow up and be better people or he will end that relationship. Having 5K, blowing it all because his girlfriend wanted him to and ending up with no job, no car, and no money to do fun things with that girlfriend is a priceless lesson that could save him untold amounts of grief later in life. Don't be manipulated, it won't help your son. Have confidence in yourself and remember that what you want is a responsible, reasonable, self-supporting son in the long run. My once-difficult daughter is now a kind, thoughtful, responsible, hard-working, delightful adult who is as lovely on the inside as she is on the outside, which is saying a lot because she's very pretty. I could not ask for a better daughter. And her bratty boyfriend is now a wonderful, responsible, hard-working, delightful adult who is a much-loved and wanted member of our family (they married last year). But in the thick of our difficult times all I could do was try to do the right thing, hang on and hope for the best. Best of everything to you and your family and hang in there.