The fluorescent lights will put out enough heat to germinate seeds if you set them up in the right way.

Thanks for the info folks.

Oh and set up is in my closet. With just the lights, and a box fan going temps get up to the mid 70's or so. With one heat lamp it gets into the low 80's. With both going it gets to the mid to upper 80's.

Right now I have my over winter plants in there with the lights set for 16 on 8 off. I have a test germination of Bhut seeds going as well. One set is in a baggie with paper towel on top of one of the lights. The other is in one of the Miracle Gro mini green houses. Both were started a week ago. Time will tell if they sprout. Seeds were taken from a pod. Set in a cup of water the ones that sank were started.

I was thinking about using the heat mat, and thermostat as a fail safe kind of thing. As well as less time, and effort to fiddle with things.

I just ordered both. I am getting free rush shipping on both so I will have them by Tuesday. So looks like I will have them before I get the seeds.

Looks like it will be time to find some trays for the shelves now.

SoCarRob,

Seeds need some moisture plus heat to germinate. It doesn't matter where the heat is coming from;
EXAMPLE:
I put some seeds (pre soaked) on a damp paper towel, then I put it in a small zip bag. I put the bag in a folded dish towel. I put the dish towel on the top of a lamp shade with florescent bulb (20 watt ?).
I started some seeds( as test of viability) about a week ago. Sure enough, they are viable and germinating.
Actually, the top of a 20w lamp shade gets too hot. That is why I wrap the bag in a multi layered dish towel.

pic. of set up below.

Seysonn

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A month or so back I was looking at AeroGardens to overwinter some plants and recently saw their AEROGARDEN SEED STARTING SYSTEM that I thought interesting. Any of the 7 station units would work, the pricy models have more bells and whistles and all have a LED option.

Take a zip lock bag and a paper towel

Spread seeds and fold towel over

Wet towel. put it in the bag and close the bag.

Put bag where you have measured 85F. Wait.

Willard ... and then what?

At what point to you take them out of the bags and what do you do next?

=====
This is an informative discussion. I'm moving from Phoenix to chillier high desert NM, and the SO wants to grow chiles.

Alas, my "shelf over a honking huge CRT monitor" seed starting spot has vanished, the old file server is way more efficient, and the cats are occupying the new sun porch.

LG, wet paper towel/zip bag is very common method of germinating in smaller scale.

WHAT NEXT ? when seeds sprout ?

I would transfer them into cells. You can use scissors to cut the paper towel, or use tweezers . Now, barely bury the sprout , keep it moist. A clear plastic dome or cling wrap , ..or...
This part is very crucial , to me, to survive the sprouts and turn them into seedlings. I would germinate 2-3 time more, to make sure I will end up with at least one per cell.
My next step would be transplanting from cells into 4" pots, when the seedlings have 1 or 2 pairs of true leaves.

Seysonn

I've been using small rectangular and round container's in germinating mine. Once the sprouts get an inch tall, I transfer them over to 4" pots. I put about 1/2" to 1" amount of seed starting soil in them. Then sow 5 or 6 seeds (or more), put the seed sown date on it and number of seeds that were placed in it. And when I remove a sprout, I write it in on the container (Sprouts removed). I'll post some pics... Sorry in advance for the multiple posts of pics (trying to figure out how to do multiples - someone helped me with how to add color, bold type, etc., but not adding images - if you know how to do this can you email me? I'd appreciate it very much - Thanks!) I've got about 17 pics - lol!

Small Round Betty Crocker containers (4 for a $1.00 @ the Dollar Tree) and small rectangular containers (2 for $1.00 @ the Dollar Tree)

The rectangular container's

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Place Saran Wrap on it for a better seal (traps the moisture in)

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Fill with 1/2" to 1" seed starting soil - Sow your seeds - Mist with "Warm" water - Label it (it's Always a good idea to put the label on the container itself, not the lid, lol) put the date you planted the seeds on it as well as how many seeds you planted in it (on this pic I didn't put how many seeds were in it - but had it written down, afterwards... I began putting it on the label). I put another label on there for "Sprouts Removed" so I know what's left - no guessing later! I had 5 seeds in this container.

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The round Betty Crocker container's (plus a little work to be done on the lids)

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The tops need to be cut out because the sprouts will get leggy in a hurry (the colored tops Will not let light in - so they stretch out, going to the sides where they get the most light). I don't cut the tops when it's on the container - take them off and then cut them. If you have a soldering/wood burner type tool (like the one in the pic below) with a exacto knife adapter, these work great for this.

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Then put some saran wrap between

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Label it the same as the other

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7 Pot Burgundy W/ a sprout

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I place my sprouts in 4" container's (the ones you see in the pic below are about 2 weeks after placing them). For the lighting I use 2' X 4' T8 fluorescent fixtures. Notice the height I have them from the top of the plants (lights are off to show height for pic). It's also a good idea to have a few temperature gauges placed on top of the pots to keep an eye on temps (I'll post some pics). I find that 85 degrees works best too.

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Temperature gauge bought @ Lowe's for 99 cents each

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Digital temperature/moisture gauge bought @ Lowe's for $8 - $10. I like these because they give a 24 hr. high's and low's reading too (good for seeing if there was a significant temp drop at night)

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As far as a heat mat goes, I bought a few "Clear Bulb" 18' rope lights (Christmas lighting - exact same ones in the lighting dept.). They generally go for around $20.00, but if you head over to Kroger's right now you can get them way way cheaper. I picked up 3 of them @ $6.00 each. Can't beat that. I'll post a link somewhere below for what you can do to use these to keep the soil warm.

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The Temperature was at 147 degree's and still climbing when I checked it. In the video link, you'll see what you can do with these to make it work. There are a few things I'll change with how the guy did his in the video. Drywall is one of them. You'll see what I mean after viewing it. Haven't tried it yet, but I know it'll work for me.

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Also, I have a Ranco Temperature Controller that I use with a heat fan to help control the temperature in my basement. Works great and they aren't too expensive. I'll have to show you more on that in a little while. Gotta go pick up a ham right now - or I'm dead meat for Christmas, Rofl!

Link to video below...

Here is a link that might be useful: DIY Heat Mat/Cat Bed Warmer

This post was edited by Garretds7 on Sun, Dec 21, 14 at 23:03

Shytes! Rofl! I gotta go, but when I get back I'll try to fix the image links...

Edit to add:
Got it fixed! Wasn't as hard as I thought. :-)

This post was edited by Garretds7 on Sun, Dec 21, 14 at 23:08

Yeah, I get that they need to be in a paper towel sealed inside a ziploc baggie. I was posturing the use of a heated water tray as a heating device. My home is kept at 65F in the winter. So inside there isn't anywhere that reaches 85F consistently. If I took a tray of water and placed an aquarium heater with the thermostat set at 85F and floated a cookie sheet (or other heat conducting object) in the water and placed the ziploc bags with seeds and paper towels on the cookie sheet then sealed the entire thing with plastic wrap if that would suffice.

When I mentioned I use a Ranco for the temperature in the basement, it doesn't count for the whole basement. I put the temperature probe right under the fluorescent fixture and aim the heating fan towards the vicinity of it. So it's keeps that area from getting too cold. The Rope lights I think will do a better job at night. With the Ranco, I can plug in the Rope lights to it and maintain the temps. I think I paid $25 - $30 for it. Once I get the kind of Styrofoam that can be used with heat, I'll be able to cover a larger area considering the cost of the heat mats.

I'll be back in a minute... I'll get a pic of the Ranco setup I've got. This thing can be used in many different applications too.

It's a Ranco ETC 111000-000 and can be found on Ebay.

The temperature that's displayed is the actual temp where the probe is setting...

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I connected it to a surge protector. If I have the Ranco set for 70 degree's and it drops to 68 anything plugged in will come on. It can also be set lower or to 69 to kick on.

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The Temperature Probe is 8' long, so I can move it around where I need it. The Domed Tray is full of herbs (72 cell tray). I wouldn't use the 72 cell trays for the peppers.

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A wider view... I've got more peppers on the bottom shelf too. Last night I counted 80 Pepper plants started. I'll only be keeping 1 or 2 of each variety. The others I'm thinking to sell and my cousins son has an interest in the super hots, so, I'll be giving him some too! :) Also, the fan in the pic isn't where I normally keep it. Just moved it for the pic.

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If anyone were interested in getting one... When your searching for it on Ebay - pay attention to the ones with free shipping verses the ones you need to pay for it. Add the shipping cost and see what you come up with.

Haha! I was just reading through my posting and find I might be confusing people with the temps? Right now, when I'm germinating seeds in the containers. I place them next to an air pump. It's constantly blowing out warm air. If I have them right next to it, it'll reach 90 degree's easily. So I've got them backed away from it to where it's at a constant 85 degree's. This is why I picked up the rope lights. I'll be able to build the mats and put them on it as well as my plants (especially at night when the lights are off). I have more like a garage basement. To keep the whole area warm is nearly impossible.

The thermostat was sitting on my doorstep when I got home from work today. The heat mat should be here tomorrow, as well as the seeds. With Christmas day off it looks like I know what I am going to be doing with my time on that day.

Thanks for all of the input folks, and please keep it coming.

Nate

As mentioned before, I am test germinating some TEPIN seeds. I bought the pods from store.

Anyway, I got them germinated (Towel ziploc) and transplanted few of them into a pot. I might just keep them.

The principle of germinating pepper seeds (and some other) is simple: (1) Right temperatures ( 85F +/- 10) and (2) moisture.
Once you've got them germinated , light comes into play and heat becomes secondary (60F - 75F). At higher temperatures you will get higher rate of growth and possibly lanky seedlings especially in the absence of adequate light. Lower temps, good light will give you good short and stocky seedlings. That is what I aim too.

Seysonn

"I wonder if I took a cookie sheet and floated it in a tub of water that had an aquarium heater in it set to 85F would work for germinating seeds. I have an aquarium heater but not a heat pad"

Beware of corrosion if you do that. I don't understand how, but foil pans get eaten through quickly on a water bath. Use plastic from one-item frozen T V Dinners. That's a piece of scavenged ceiling light grid supporting the trays. A quality aquarium heater will have a one degree variance in its thermostat and is half the price of a heat mat alone.

The tank in the pic is outdoors facing the South and gets a bucketload of sunlight. Those are 18 day toms and 18 day peppers. The peat pellets are always at 72 or 73 degrees and have no actual contact with the heated water. There are no problems with this sort of thing in our sort of climate, but YMMV.

EDIT P.S.: No need for lights (here) but one nice thing about a tank is there's an entire mature industry making lights in a huge range of brightnesses that fit standard tank sizes perfectly!

This post was edited by grubby_me on Mon, Dec 22, 14 at 23:34

I now have the heat mat, and thermostat. Also I have the seeds. (Thank you Johnny.) I am now working on sewing a first round to start with. I am doing on my first batch. 5 Bhamian Goat, 5 Chocolate Scotch Bonnet, 5 Aji Limon, 5 Butch T Scorpion, and 10 Carolina Reaper.

I am using the 2 oz. mini cups with lids for starting in. Once they get a set of true leaves I will pot them up 20 oz Solo cups. If they out grow the solo cups I have a multitude of pots from half gal. on up.

I will post some pics at a later time.

I hope everyone had a Safe, and Merry Christmas.

Nate Guilliams

All right Nate. You are all set then.
I've got things I need too but it is still too early. I will wait till mid JAN. I have so many choices but not enough space (pots, ground) to grow all of them. Have to compromise.

I have a pioneer going right now. It is a Tepin

Seyson my first sprouts were from a Bhut pod I planted to see if they would go without the heat mat. It took 12 days for 3 of 9 to sprout. None of the others have so far. I am not worried about it though.

I will do a test with the heat mat, and without. With the lights going temps of 90 under the lights is the norm. The thing is my overwinter plants are in the same closet so I have the lights on a timer. Without the lights it goes down to 65. The heat mat keeps the seed starts at an even 85 during the night. So I am hopeful that some are going to sprout. I have them in the sauce cups so I can pull them off the heat mat once they sprout.

Note on the floor where the overwinter plants are it is in the 70's as well as the level the seedlings will go to once they sprout. I have the starts on a top shelf where it is warmest.

Nate,

Given enough time , most seeds should germinate @65F if it does not rot.
As might already know, the soil temperature counts when you are germinating in soil. Already germinated and established seedling should do just fine @65F even bit lower.

So germinating and growing under lights are two different phases. Germinating is like incubating eggs. Growing under light is like raising the chicks.

Seysonn

I just seeded these soil blocks on Christmas day. The trays are sitting on heat mats.

I made the light fixture for under 10 bucks for when the seeds germinate.

If the block doesn't germinate I just break it up and use it with the next lot.

I like the 72 cell styrofoam starter available from tomatogrowers. Got tapered sides so you can pop the seedlings out to plant in cups. Much more durable than other cell set-ups.

Good find TomT. Here's a link to the cells...

Seedling Trays

Here's some earlier advice you gave that works well for me...

"I've had good luck with MG seed starting mix. Just fill the flats, water, let drain, then put a seed on top and sprinkle more mix on top to about 1/8-1/4" deep. Capillary action will dampen the dry soil on top. Stretch some Saran wrap over the flat and rubber-band it. Let it get morning sun/afternoon shade. Remove wrap when seedlings start pushing on the wrap."

Instead of the Saran Wrap, I simply place the lids on the Rubbermade trays I'm using. And yes, that's an electric blanket, uncovered for the photo. Too cold to put them outside and my shop is mostly unheated right now...

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Once they sprout the lids will come off and after a couple or three weeks they'll go straight to 6" pots for the rest of the winter.

This post was edited by mecdave on Sun, Dec 28, 14 at 9:22

This why i like my soil blocks. I just run water into the tray, they soak it up and they are easy to transplant. This is my first year with heat mats. Too exciting!

I ended up using my utility sink and my aquarium heater set at 85F as my heat source. I took dressing cups (those little clear plastic cups with lids you get at restaurants with salad dressing in them) and moist paper towels cut to size with seeds in them and floated those on top of the water. So far it's working great! I've had 100% germination on several varieties and more germinating every day. I started germinating on 12/24 and had my first ones transferred under lights on 12/30.

It is germination season. Isn't it ?

I am doing some "pilot" germinating. I germinate on the top of a lamp shade, using a 25w FCL.
I sowed 8 vars on 28th Dec. Today 5 have sprouted. One of them sprouted in 5 days.
It will be another two weeks or so to do it full steam.

So how is yours coming along ?

Seysonn

I'm eight out of ten in my Rubbermade trays on an electric blanket. Sowed Dec 26th.

Dave

You use a regular electric blanket? Thats cool, just curious what temp it runs if you know?

I also think that elec. blanket is a COOL idea to WARM up the seeds. hehe
I have a "Heat Pad" but it is like 12" x 16". For now that is enough for me

Seysonn

"You use a regular electric blanket? Thats cool, just curious what temp it runs if you know?"

I have a temp probe from a freezer inside/outside thermometer in between the blanket and seed tray. It reads between 85 and 90 while the shop is between 60 to 65.

This will be the 3rd time in a year of using it for germinating and it's worked just fine every time. The only draw back was I had to buy another electric blanket for my recliner, it's original purpose. ;-)

Time for an update.

Well I have had about 12 so far that have sprouted. 4 are no longer with us. The other 8 seem to be doing ok so far. It seems to be the opposite of damping off. Temp in the closet with the fan off reaches to around 90 or so. With the fan off it hits around 95. I have been cracking the door open to let some cooler air in. The seedlings in the little sauce cups are drying out way too fast. I am having to water them twice a day. Between going to bed, and waking up in the morning the medium is hard, and bone dry. I water with peroxide. Go to work. Come home dry as bone again. 4 withered seedlings. After watering 2 seemed to perk up a bit.

I took the tray out of the closet this morning, and put it on my reloading bench. Upon arriving home the two that seemed to perk up a tad are now gone.

I am giving this to a learning curve kind of thing. I have learned I do not like Jiffy starting mix. I am going to have to find some coir. It worked last year. The only problem is no one around has any on the shelf at this time. I am going to check out a place in a little while to see if they have any. So in the end I am going to do what works for me.

Happy growing everyone,

Nate

Miracle Grow Seed Starting Mix works great, but you'll need to mix it with water in a bucket before using. Otherwise it won't absorb the water initially. Once it does though it stays wet for a long time.

Nate, Sorry for your losses !
I think you should have some kind of dome or cling wrap on them to maintain moisture.

Here is my update:
I sowed 8 varieties on 12/29/14, as a pilot project.
Now at day 8 I have 5 fully sprouted. Another one is showing some hint. But the other 2 just not responding. I have to pronounce them something . hehe

Tomorrow I will transfer them into pots.

Seysonn

Several more have sprouted. A couple that did not look too good bit the dust. I am going to try putting a few in a dome tray, and seeing how that works out.

The newest ones that are in have been started in the MG mix. I am keeping my eyes peeped for the coir. Looks like I will need to pick up an extra one this time so I have one for starting time next year.

The newest ones are Red Scotch Bonnet, Red Brain Strain, and Yellow Devil's Tongue. I also started some California Wonder Bell Peppers, as well as some tomatoes. (Cherokee Purple, and Black Krim.)

More to follow as the space clears for them.

All but one of the seedlings in the sauce cups have died. My guess is too shallow, and it is hot in the closet I am growing them in. Also the mix dries out faster than I can get home to water again.

My solution is simple. I am going to go back to what has worked for me in the past. I had to buy the starter cell packs with the coir plugs in them. The local places do not have the bricks in stock. They all say they will be coming. (I am not going to hold my breath waiting on that.) I have starts going in two 36 cell mini green houses on top of the mat.

My tomatoes are doing just fine, and sprouted in 4 days. (Cherokee Purple, and Black Krim.) On the shelf under the lights with them close is around 90 with the fan off. If I turn the fan on it goes to about 80 something. Then the moving air dries things out too fast in the shallow dishes. So I am just staring with deeper starts like I did last year.

......for SCG....

Thanks, I knew I was over thinking them.

SCG

One thing that has been a MAJOR hassle this year is that a lot of places keep changing products on me.
I find a seed starter mix I like and need more than they have in stock...
I come in a week later and am told they won't get it anymore,BUT they have brand B.
Both work but 1 needs watering every day,the other needs watering less than every 3 days or it kills plants.
Of coarse by the start of the season I've had to use 3 or more different soil mixes.
ALL are different.
I don't have a way to separate the different starts so I end up having to go through ALL my starts every day so I don't over or under water stuff.
IT REALLY SUCKS!
I miss the days when I knew when ALL my starts would need watering.
Now I have to not only deal with water issues but also the older plants needing water at different times and amounts too.
I can't schedule stuff this year.
I sprout hundreds of seeds at a time.
This year is sucking as far as being a LOT more work to do.

First year out of many I have either root rot,Gnats or crispy plants.
All on the same shelves.
My grow room is always about 80 degrees or higher.
South facing,no air conditioning ,heating or windows that open.
Cinder Block house,it doesn't change temps. easily.

So watch out for different soil mixes.
They might work great by themselves BUT are all different when used at the same time.

This post was edited by smokemaster_2007 on Mon, Feb 2, 15 at 19:05

FWIW, I looked up the Ranco thermostat and found it to be quite a bit more money than the Emerson 16E09-101 that I use. Only difference I could see was the Ranco had one foot more of sensir wire but only displayed sensor temp. Not sensor and target like the Emerson. I buy mine from the local plumbing supply wholesaler.

Just thought I would offer another option.

Cheers all

SCG

SCG, I bought the Ranco off of Ebay. The total price I paid was $36. This was last year. I do see a few on there at 49.99. As well as the one your speaking about. It's a matter of finding the deal. Thanks for the info on the Emerson. It would be nice to see both "Sensor and Target" on the display.

I did build the heat mat with the rope lights. And it works great. Didn't get any Styrofoam board. I winded up using cardboard cut from a few big boxes (got tired of waiting to get Styrofoam). The open spaces between act as vents. So it worked out just fine. It would be better to close off the outside areas of the board, but I have something else in mind.

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Here's the whole board, it measures 23-1/2" X 27-1/4". It could be a little wider too. But that's the size board I had to work with. Considering the size of my florescent lights, it worked out for me.

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With a few container's to show how I set them on it (heating the bottoms).

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And here, with a tray...
To keep the water/soil warm (2' X 4' Florescent hanging above).

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For the cardboard pieces: I used some leftover contact cement to fasten 4 sheets together = 5/8" for height (rope tube = about a 1/2"). Then cut them into 2-1/4" strips @ 22" in length. I cut a curve in each one of the 22" strips wherever needed after I fastened them on the board using the contact cement. I like using the contact cement because as soon as you join them... instant grab. If you haven't used contact cement before, you have to apply an even coat to both sides, then let them dry a minute and stick it to it. Make sure you have it aligned right before doing so. You'll be able to wiggle it some in place, but it likes to grab when you place them together. Also, before starting on it, fasten 3 sheets of cardboard together. And cut 2 small strips for spacers. As you place the 22" cardboard pieces on the board set the spacers between for a tight 1/2" (for the rope to lay inside).

The 3 sheets fastened together for spacers:

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I hope that helps and makes sense for anyone wanting to do this. I'm thinking about enclosing one of these and have a glass lid on it. I think this would allow it to have a more even temperature throughout. Just a thought anyway. When you first start placing the strips, make sure to check out the full picture of the board. The first two rows have to be started on the same side, then after that... to the left, then right, left, then right, etc. After all the pieces are in. Just cut in some partial circles and fasten them in (the ends).

As for my germination rates, It's been on average of about 95% or better. On my Purple Dog Creek tomato's I started on Feb. 3rd @ 10 p.m. today I have 10 sprouts out of 10. This is in a 1/2" of MG starter soil. Using one of the round containers with cutout tops (saran wrap between the top and container). Yeah, I'll be either selling some of these or giving them away. But, the rope lights are working great. Also, I do have the temperature probe on the heating board with the rope lights plugged in to the Ranco setup I've got. After I'm done making three of these, I'll have about $54.00 invested. I already had contact cement and the boards (my son busted up his old desk). Cardboard boxes = free.

That's three large sized heating boards.

That is a nice looking setup. I have lots of styrofoam and may give this a try.

I am curious as it looks like you are growing on the heat as well. Is this because of the temp in your room or do you find they do better under heat? I was, maybe misguided, that they do better if you drop the temp after sprouting.

Oh, yeah my old username got eaten in the move to Houzz so till I can recover it I will be using this

SCG

All my stuff is in the basement, and it stays a little chili down here, but comfortable. The tray you see in the picture is of Endive and some Herbs. I can put them somewhere else, but I am running out of room, Haha! When I set them on the heat - it was very cold down here. Now it's about 70 degrees during the day. I have 4 more 2 bulb four foot florescent fixture's I need to get tubes for - for more lighting space.

As for the sprouts, I move them into 4 inch pots and off the heating boards. Most of the peppers in the 4 inch pots I have, need to go into gallon container's now. Need More Dirt! Lol! Glad you like it! Hope it helps anyone interested. The heating mat's can get kind of expensive for me. I could really kick myself though... Last year I had a hundred + foot roll of the rope lights and didn't have any use for it then. Got rid of it! Yeah, it sucks thinking about it now.

Not liking the change in here very much. The "exchange Lists" are gone! I think they'll be back soon? Don't know?

Gotcha! thanks.

I have more lights than I would like to admit and moved to T5HO's to moderate temperature, also an shameful number of heating mats. I was just curious if some folks thought peppers did better growing with a warmer soil. I tend to grow almost all at 16C and things like watermelons or other fussy plants get the 20C or what they like. I have, too many, thermostats to control individual growing soil temp LOL.

Thanks again.

BTW you could use a clear coat of lacquer or epoxy on top of that cardboard to extend its life from moisture :)

SCG

Yeah, the cardboard could use something, but it's all I had to do what i could to get things going. I'm really thinking about enclosing one. I've got plenty of fiberglass material I've been thinking about. But would rather use the Styrofoam board if I did this. I do want to make it to where i can replace the rope lights easily when they eventually burn out - they should last a long time though. The cardboard was a quick thought. I used it to cover over the basement windows (to keep the cold out) - it actually helped more than i thought it would. That's where I figured in using it.

I have seen a video where a guy used sand to cover over the rope lights. He had a huge table inside a greenhouse. Looked good to me. You'd have to search that one out on Youtube. These rope lights do work - they've impressed me.

great thread! i found this incandescent rope light - 150 ft for $59.95. says it can be cut to size... https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/94655/FT2-N120CL12150.html
saaaaweeeeet!

My lights in the closet I am using keep it at about 80 to 85 in there for the most part anyway. Strange but true I have not fired up the heat mat this year so far. I put a bunch in the starter cells, and stuck them on the top shelf, and in a week most had sprouted anyway. I will be using the heat mat for the next round though.

I tried the rope lights,years ago.

They needed constant attention.

They were very HOT if I didn't spread them out.

I think I posted long ago a link to a way to make a table that ended up being cool.

I have 2 rope light I'd send anyone for postage.15 or longer...

I don't remember.

I haven't used them for a few years.

I use Temp. controlled heat mats now.

They were cool for a while,but suck for small shelves-hey too hot.

Not the original link.

http://www.vegetablegardener.com/item/11658/diy-heat-mat-speeds-seed-starting

Closer link-

http://doorgarden.com/2009/02/17/home-made-bottom-heat-seed-starting/

https://www.google.com/search?q=rope+light+seedling+heater&espv=2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwis3_yYpajLAhUL12MKHd_WAS4QsAQIMg&biw=1280&bih=923

Smoke