My dictionary defines "care" as "worry", "trouble", and "anxiety". Is that what these women were giving?

I suppose they did at that, in a way-but I did not mean to deliberately imply that-I just used "caregiver" as a universal word, since we have a governess, a teacher, and a housekeeper-caregiver has become the "word de jour" for anyone caring for another-"my f-i-l was my m-i-l's 'caregiver" when she was in the last stages of her cancer...." or "The children's caregiver was a college student part-time."

The relationship between children and carer in The Kitchen Madonna is almost the exact opposite of that in The Turn of the Screw - the former has a devoted, but passive nanny with a pair of children who take control; in the latter, the children are a passive pair of unknowns, with a controlling 'carer'.

Marta certainly seems the most maternal of the lot, simply administering to their needs, and leaving them the space to develop. She does not foist her religion on them, but they discover it for themselves through their love for her. The governess in TOTS, on the other hand, forces her beliefs on the children with disastrous consequences.

How "in charge" did you feel the children were in TOTS? I felt all the way through the story that they were involved in the deception or the "haunting" (see TOTS discussion) while in Brodie, Sandy runs a covert operation when Miss Brodie's plans for the girls become clear.

What struck me about TPOMJB was that when Sandy rebelled against Brodie, the usual youth and adult roles were reversed. In my experience of books and movies, the youth are usually more freedom-seeking, sexually active, risk-takers and outside-the-box thinkers while the adult characters are usually more traditional, possibly religious, and socially conservative. To reverse the roles made the book much more interesting. The authority figure was the libertine, the child in her charge was the traditionalist. IMO Brodie wasn't so much a 'carer' as an active shaper of the girls, trying to make them in her own image.

I did not see Brodie as a "caregiver", either. I saw her as such a strong personality that she was someone to react against. She seemed to be on a power trip, only caring for her control over the girls, never aware of the damage she was capable of inflicting by her influence.

I read Brodie as a classic narcissist and I think it was no accident that the fascist references were repeated emphasized by Spark. All of her charges reacted against her influence, just in various and different ways. Sandy's reaction was almost a revolt, a mutiny against Brodie's values, IMO. She realized the danger of blindly following Brodie's lead and determined to put a stop to her influence, one way or another. I think Sandy saw this as a moral reaction.

I was unable to find The Kitchen Madonna,so cannot comment on it.

okay-I'm back home-we won the state volleyball championship, so it was a good weekend!

I am sorry I chose the word "caregiver" to describe the three women-it seems to have been a stumbling-block. I was in a hurry and didn't have time to type "the governess, the teacher and the housekeeper" over and over. However, let's just call them the "significant female influence" or SFI and leave it at that.
I completely agree that Brodie's "care" was dangerous. Her deliberate directing of the girls' lives, even after they had left the lower school and her day-to-day influence, was selfish in the extreme. Although she did apparently have an affair with Gordon Lowther, she has always struck me as repressed and somewhat naive-with an immature, romantic view of the world that is simplistic, black and white-just as the governess in TOTS. Their respective opinions of good and evil are opposing-the Governess is appalled at the affair between the former governess and the valet, while Brodie would have cheered it as a triumph over old-fashioned mores-but both believe that their way is the only right way. With complete control over their charges, they each do irreversible damage. Marta, on the other hand, is passive, pragmatic-her past life has been too hard to leave her any illusions-she does not want control, and quickly will cede authority back to the children's mother when something goes awry. Her role is strictly nurture on the most basic level-food, warmth, safety.

My Oxford Essential has several definitions for 'care.' I would choose 'serious attention...protection, charge.' Also, 'caregiver' is defined as 'person who provides care for children, the sick, the elderly, etc.' So. I don't have any thing erudite to add to the discussion other than to say I was very pleased to see The Kitchen Madonna pop up for discussion. I read it many, many years ago, I believe within a year or two of its publication. I could not have been more than 8 or 9 years old, but it has always stayed with me. I remember details of the story to a rather extraordinary degree. Perhaps it was the first 'feel-good' book I ever read. This is also unusual because it is not normally the kind of book I would enjoy - i.e. rich kids who don't get enough attention, sob sob. I felt great empathy for Gregory, in fact I identified with him. I think Godden did a wonderful job of creating Marta's character; she was truly alive for me, and the fact that the children loved her despite her unattractive appearance and somewhat morose character only made her more real and interesting.

I was lucky enough to find a beautiful illustrated copy at my local library and re-read it for our discussion. I am happy to say I still love the story and it still resonates with me. The subtley, humor and essential truth to the story make it as appealing to me now as it was 40(!) years ago. Also, I mentioned it to my mother and was surprised to find that she loves the story also, and had read it back in the 1960's when I did (obviously the same copy - she has belonged to book clubs her whole life and never stopped me from reading anything).

I've rambled a bit here, but I did want to share my thoughts even if they don't contribute a great deal.

I had never read any Rumer Godden before, and enjoyed The Kitchen Madonna in two completely different ways - apart from the beautiful and gently uplifting story, my library copy also has beautiful illustrations by Carol Barker (art being my biggest passion).

I did not feel that the story focussed on the 'poor little rich kid' theme; Gregory is quite the loner, anyhow. The way in which he discovers a kind of religious devotion through his wish to do something good for Marta was beautiful and subtle - nothing preachy in there, even though the story is essentially about religion.

Thank you for suggesting this one!

Here is a link that might be useful: Cover illustration

Anyanka, if you plan to read other work by Rumer and/or sister Jon Godden, you are in for a treat! I specifically recommend "The Greengage Summer" by Rumer. Also "Two Under the Indian Sun" by Jon and Rumer. Then there is Rumer's autobiography: "A Time to Dance, No Time to Weep", partly set in the India she loved. Also, "A Candle for St. Jude." And there are many more.....

Thanks, Woodnymph - will add them to my mental wishlist!

Don't forget In This House of Brede

I don't know if you use libraries, but I'm sure your local would have a good supply of her books. Or you could find them secondhand.

Having said that, I'm going to look around for an illustrated copy of The Kitchen Madonna for my favorites collection, and maybe one for my mother, too.

pulling up for the Gentle Reads thread!