No I'm not a writer, except here and work documents. But I'm a purist when it comes to puctuation and grammar. (Though I STILL maintain that "None of the grammar rules ARE totally proscriptive" sounds better than "None of the grammar rules IS totally proscriptive." But that's a separate argument).

I thought it might be fun to come up with a few more of our own. How about...

• IMHO, using acronyms without explanation

  should be discouraged.

Martin, these are great. English majors salute you. Thanks for posting.

Oh, how much fun! I chuckled my way down the list.

R

With all those rules, it's a wonder a writer can be natural and creative about anything.

This is great I'm printing a copy for all my kids in school, one of my daughter's just asked me last night about semi-colons, wish I would have this list.

That's a great list. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for sharing Martin, are you a writer?

What a great reference for when I'm helping my 5th grader with his Langauge Arts homework. My husband, who majored in English with a concentration in grammer and semantics (oh yuck!), was quite surprised to find that the serial comma use has changed since his college days. I think I recall a discussion on that issue on this forum.

bookmom, when was your husband in college? The use of the serial comma has certainly changed since I was a university student. My favorite example of why the serial comma should be used is in "To my parents, Ayn Rand and God." However, a lot of readers don't automatically see the absurdity because they were trained to not put a comma before and in a list of items.

A lot of these so-called rules are style preferences and should not be considered immutable. I had one editor who detested what he called "the peppering of thats: Here a that, there a that, everywhere that-thats." Another editor was a stickler for including every possible that for clarity. Argh! It's hard to write to suit everybody's preference and you are sure to offend some pedant somewhere.

The use of hyphens is probably my biggest peeve: A lot of words that were hyphenated when I was in school no longer are. Some still are, but I often can't recall which ones -- and it's not intuitive. I see nonfiction and non-fiction, tearjerker and tear-jerker, reread and re-read in about equal proportions, though the trend seems to be to dispense with the hyphen.

The examples in Martin's list are funny, and I recognize with chagrin a lot of my own mistakes.

Martin, I agree with you in the "none ARE/none IS" examples. Collective nouns often give me trouble, such as: The Athletics IS a great team.

Thanks, Martin. That's going in the keeper file.

Here in England, sports team names are plural. So for example, Arsenal ARE top of the league.

Go Gunners! They can do the double (the prem & euro cup).

Frieda, said husband graduated in '78, I think; I graduated in '84 and both of us were taught (that) using the comma before and was improper. It was only after "correcting" my 5th grader's homework and looking at his LA book to settle the ensuing argument that we found we are the dinosaurs of the grammar world.

As far as verbs which have snuck into usage, I've heard both my children say they smelt something. Is that proper? It is nails on a chalkboard to me.

bookmom, you and your husband fall into about a twenty to twenty-five year period when the powers-that-be decided that the comma before and was extraneous; thus that's the way it was taught and presented in textbooks. The older way was the inclusion of that comma. Sometime in the 1990s, I think, the authorities reversed themselves again because it's obvious in certain situations that a comma is needed for clarity. Unfortunately, those who were taught the sans-comma style, who were already out of school, haven't picked up on the change. Also, I think many Britons still omit it, though it was they who instituted it in the first place -- the Oxford comma as it is called. Most of the time it's not a big deal, in my opinion; but sometimes the lack of the comma can create wrong -- often hilarious -- impressions.

Smelt is entirely proper. In fact, it's the older inflection. Think kept, leapt, slept that are still used. It's we Americans who want to regularize the past tense with the -ed ending on everything. That's why snuck and hung are aberrant for us: Why are we stubbornly attached to those?

Thanks, Martin. I copied and saved those.

Frieda, the Chicago Manual of Style is what I try to follow except when I don't want to. They de-emphasize hyphens also except when absolutely needed. They recommend the latest Mirriam-Webster Collegiate for reference.

Speaking of CMOS, their new Q&A is up. See the answers to the third and last questions.

In the US at least, a man is hanged, but a picture is hung.

I hear "winned" used on my husband's incessant TV sports programs. Nails on blackboard, indeed.

There are other words that are changing that I notice, e.g., something was weaved instead of woven and others that I can't think of right now.

I was taught the Oxford comma originally and in my return to finish college in the 70s was fortunate to have a younger prof who taught it, as well.

In some parts of the US, I notice in the Virginia/Maryland area people say the rug "needs vcauumed" instead I need to vacuum the rug.

I had never heard of the 'Oxford comma' before I found RP, nor is it mentioned in my huge English dictionary. After doing a quick Google check I found only one site originating from the UK which mentions it.
What is the Chicago Manual of Style? Is it subtitled 'How to Graduate with Elegance'? or 'Take Tea the Al Capone Way'?
Do you remember Basil Fawlty saying to guests "Please excuse my wife. Her finishing school was bombed."
Frieda, who are these 'authorities' you mention? Is there some US academic board that decides on rules of grammar and when to change them as happens in France?
bookmom, smelt would be used in the UK plus Frieda's other eg's.
A word seemingly used by Americans in an ungrammatical way (to English ears) is fit. It seems to remain the same in whatever tense/situation it is used. "The new stove was fit into the kitchen." In 'English' it would have been 'fitted'. I'm sure there are other eg's.
The word snuck is never used in the UK. ;-)
As for English grammar. I don't think it has been taught in schools over here for about 30 years. My husband knows far more about the bare-bones of grammar than I do because he studied Latin for about 5 years; another subject fast disappearing from the syllabus.

Vee, I started to post that "snuck" is not a real word in the U.S. either, although it is used casually to be funny. Then I decided to check to be sure; and at Merriam-Webster On-Line, I found "snuck: past and past participle of sneak."

Oh, the shame!

Vee, there is no U.S. academic board that arbits rules of grammar, etc. The authorities are an amorphous "they," a consensus from the various publishing-house style manuals, American English dictionaries, noted grammarians, educators, and others recognized language experts. I know that there are specific boards or committees for textbook standards, probably varying from state to state; but I don't know exactly how they work.

Fit is peculiar in American English because its form doesn't change necessarily from present tense to past tense. For the past tense, what I hear from most Americans, and what I would say myself, would be "The new stove fit into the kitchen without any problems." However, for the past participle, most of us would say "The kitchen was fitted with a new stove." Fitted as the past-tense form is not unusual, though, in American English. Your example, Vee, "The new stove was fit into the kitchen" looks odd to me (and sounds weird when I say it out loud), but that may be because I haven't been around people who say and write it that way.

One progression of tenses that I can't get used to is light, lighted, lighted. When I grew up, lit was used as past and past participle; thus, you lit the candles for dinner last night, and the candles on the table were lit for dinner every night last week. Apparently the use of lit sounds very quaint or archaic to some people.

It all reminds me of that wonderful song from My Fair Lady: Why can't the English teach their children how to speak. I love the line "in America it hasn't been spoken in years" Whats funny is that I first heard it in my 8th grade English class.

Here is a link that might be useful: lyrics (scroll down)

Vee,

I love your subtitle for The Chicago Manual of Style. The actual subtitle for this 956-page monster is: The Essential Guide for Writers, Editors, and Publishers. (please note the comma placement) It seems to be the bible for anyone who works with words ... that is unless you write for a newspaper, in which case you're more likely to follow The Associated Press [Stylebook] and [Briefing on Media Law].

Oh, and if you're using the CMS, it's got to be the 15th edition.

As a writer and editor, I use them both. Lucky for me they both now have online versions.

I slipped and hit the submit button before I was finished. Here's the corrected version.

Vee,
I love your subtitle for The Chicago Manual of Style. The actual subtitle for this 956-page monster is: The Essential Guide for Writers, Editors, and Publishers. (Please note the comma placement.) It seems to be the bible for anyone who works with words ... that is unless you write for a newspaper, in which case you're more likely to follow The Associated Press [Stylebook] and [Briefing on Media Law].

Oh, and if you're using the CMS, it's got to be the 15th edition.

As a writer and editor, I use them both. Lucky for me they both now have online versions.

Vicki, I often hit the wrong button. I proofread my posts and edit, only then to submit the unedited version. I did that with my most recent previous post where I made this blunder:and others recognized language experts.I left out as between recognized and language (I have a problem with little words; I seem to be blind to them), so I went back to insert it -- or I could have removed the s from others. I often get in trouble editing my posts, though, when I would have done just as well to leave them as they were. This thread makes me self-conscious and apprehensive about my writing. I don't mind other people's mistakes, but I detest my own. Thanks, Martin! ;-)

Lying down in crusade for correctness

'Lie' and 'Lay' are often mixed up over here "I was having a lay in this morning and got up late." I feel the answer should be "Were you laying an egg?"
In the UK the latest grammatical error has become SO common it is even heard on the BBC. "We were sat down" "the kids were sat at their desks" instead of 'sitting'.
Another is " Prices have been rising year ON Year" whatever happened to "year AFTER year"?
Since moving to what used to be a remote area of the country, bordering a small Principality with its own rules on grammar, I have become used to such expressions as "'im should say" for "he said", "'er do do" for "she did" or "'ow bist thee?" for "How are you?"
I would like to think they are an ancient linguistic link to a bygone age but suspect it is just sloppy grammar.
Money has been given to the region to preserve this way of speech.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lottery Grant

Ship Badgering?

Fascinating, Vee. Sounds like an Appalachian hollow. "Wo bist du" is German for "where are you." I wonder if there's a link, or if it's coincidence.

Vee, what you wrote re the Forest of Dean speech does sound a bit like German origins, as Joseph wrote. Maybe it is a trace of the old Saxon usages? (It also reminds me, however, of the Scots speech in "Lassie Come Home", which struck me as a child, in its oddity-- e.g. "Her be the best dog...").

Do you say "dived" or "dove"? I was raised to say "he dove off the pier" but have not seen that usage in many a year.

Another example of Americans adding the "ed" on past tense of verbs is "learned" (which we say), vs. "learnt", which our English friends say.

At times I wish in the U.S. we had the equivalent of the Academie Francaise, which would be the standardizing arbiter of American usages. But then, we would lose much that is considered "regional color."

siobam, a sheep badger is a very small-scale farmer, who, because he was born within the Forest of Dean, is allowed by ancient rite and custom to run sheep within the forest area. Many modern 'incomers' take exception to the sheep because they roam free, leave their droppings all over roads and pavements, get into gardens and eat veggies and flowers. Since the Foot-and-Mouth outbreak in '02 when the sheep had to be destroyed the replacement animals have not 'hefted' ie don't know their way about (a instinct breed into ancient flocks over many generations). They will happily sit in the middle of the road waiting to be run over . . .or worse, move at the last minute just as a car drives round them. Come to think of it the original sheep did that as well!

disputantum, I think if we could go back to pre-radio days we would find many country accents/dialects that shared similar roots, on both sides of the Atlantic.

Here is a link that might be useful: An Old Sheep Badger +other photos

"'ow bist thee" is surely from "how be-est thee," isn't it? Sounds like King James Version to me.

Going back to the Southern thread, fit can be the past tense of fight, you know.

I post on a travel forum, too, and "laying out" on the beach is pervasive. Dead bodies, perhaps?

Vee, the 'were sat' version is the one real difference in speech I used to notice with a couple of English friends I had >20 years ago. One was from Birmingham, and the other from near Chester - I wonder if it started as a regional thing. Both of these people otherwise had good grammar.

As for jumping in the water, it is always 'dived' to me. Dove is pronounced 'duv' and flies away *g*

One that frustrates me is sporting teams who win 'back to back' premierships - I suppose that consecutive is too hard to say.

I'm sure there are some Australian usages that are different, but I can't think of any at the moment.

bist is most certainly are and carolyn's explanation sounds right to me. 'ow bist? is the short version of how are you? and 'ow be the modern version. The do do is does do as opposed to does not. Bent is the opposite of bist meaning be not. My relatives who spoke like this are dying off taking the language with them but this is the language of my childhood.

Kath - winning "back to back" Premierships frustrates me too - but only because Arsenal haven't yet managed it, and Man U and Chelsea both have...

"'er do do" for "she did"That reminds me of "He do do it" in some pidgins, meaning the confirmatory "he does do it" -- apparently "he does" is not emphatic enough. The first time my older son heard that construction, he whispered to me, "Mom, that man said do do." Leave it to a kid.

How is the Welsh language doing? I remember the campaigns to preserve it. Are there more speakers now?

I can't imagine Americans funding any programs to save our waning dialects. It seems to me most Americans are all trying to sound alike, at least on the surface. There was a big ballyhoo a few years ago about black dialects being taught in school. I understand the economics in the discrimination of certain dialects, though. Probably only the dialects that are considering charming have a chance of being retained.
"'ow bist thee" is surely from "how be-est thee," isn't it? Sounds like King James Version to me.Carolyn, that's the first thing that came to my mind.

My husband thought of another sporting one. Commentators here quite commonly say of a contest that it is, for example, Crows verse Dockers. A rhyming competition perhaps?

That's a nice one, Kath. My daughter used to use a similar phrase - she converted "versus" into a verb (not sure whether she did it herself, or heard it from school - judging by your comment, I suspect the latter), so she would ask me, for example, "Who are Arsenal versing"?

I remember reading those rules before -- I think in a grammar link Rosefolly provided a few years ago.

I suppose I should apologize for every post I've ever submitted or shall submit, because I can almost guarantee that I'll make some mistake in spelling, grammar or typographical error. I used to be fairly competent, but have noticed a huge decline in my ability to get things right in recent years. Interruptions and distractions don't help. I also trip myself up by changing my mind about what words to use mid-sentence. (sigh)

I was taught to use the comma in high school, but was penalized in college for its use. I dunno. I got into the real world and realized most corporations create their own style guide. My brain has grown dizzy trying to keep it all straight.

Georgia Peach, I'm sure everyone in my company sighed with relief when I retired. I was the last of the old-school secretaries to go, thus leaving the young people happily to write run-on sentences, use subject and verb disagreements, and use impact as a verb. This doesn't even address punctuation.