Responding to CheloneÂs comments; it is clear that our basic philosophies are somewhat divergent in some areas. That is just fine. One of the delightful aspects of visiting otherÂs gardens is witnessing the wide variety of approaches taken. I found out, long ago in my youth, that much success in life could be gained by watching what everybody did and then not doing that. Call it an aversion to the lemming factor if you wish. However, this practice, (in thoughtful moderation) has served me well. Perhaps Robert Frost articulated this concept best with his oft quoted words: " Two roads diverged in a wood, and I  I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference." A look of beauty and bounty is too often attempted with silly busywork. Efficient, effective horticultural choices and practices need not assume a Luddite appearance  quite the contrary! I firmly believe that an active mind can  and should  replace much of the needless, repetitive labor performed in far too many landscapes. Quite frankly, too many substitute labor for thoughtful design. I know that it is a popular belief that: "Sometimes you have to make compromises to have something that pleases you aesthetically." But of course, subconsciously deferring to human nature, we always have a strong tendency to justify our actions after the fact rather than giving serious consideration before initiating the action. Is this plant the ONLY plant that offers esthetic stimulation? Is it REALLY the best choice or is it just a popular choice? Too often we lapse into believing that we live in an either/or world when the reality is that there are many fine alternatives. As to "routine digging/division of herbaceous perennials"; I align myself with Lauren Springer in a recent article in Horticulture Magazine where she emphatically states that this practice is both unnecessary and generally undesirable. She strongly urges gardeners to stop doing this because it robs landscapes of that wonderful, esthetic quality: maturity. I am not advocating a landscape design that requires "no work". I am not aware that is even possible. Please take note of a key phrase from in my earlier posting: Will this project require ongoing repetitive infusions of labor and/or money after it is established? I believe in putting in additional monies and labors (once) up front so that I do not have to later provide these on an ongoing basis  much like Tracy DiSabato Aust recommends. Is this a condemnation of your methods? Absolutely not. It is merely a different approach. As the old saying goes, Many roads lead to Boston. However, it should be clear that had many, many of the postings on this forum pleading for help to solve a dire problem could have been avoided all together if good design practices had been included at the very beginning. IronBelly

Jeri, Thanks for the feedback; I was hoping you'd write in. You must have posted your first message right when I began to write mine, and so I missed it. As to growing conditions, we have more winter chill and perhaps more summer heat than you, fog not too often during the growing season, heavy soil and perhaps not as alkaline as what you describe. It's significant that rust is practically unknown here, and blackspot isn't a major problem (though I don't like it when it shows up). Actually, when I'm not worrying about drought, landslides, (earthquakes,) and the economic policies of the Italian government, I'm inclined to think that we have a perfect environment for growing roses. (I'm beginning to think this country needs a revolution, AND all its politicians struck down by lightning from heaven: it seems the only way to get rid of them.) 'Gloire des Rosomanes' is probably available in Europe, but I don't believe is common in Italy: I don't remember ever seeing it offered for sale in this country, and no one I know has it. You bet I would like to have it. I seem to recall reading that it's confused in commerce with 'Nur Mahal', in Europe I believe. Taoseeker, Aha! Several years ago I too ordered 'Comte de Chambord', 'Mme. Boll', and 'Mme. Knorr' (from Schultheis in Germany) and ended up with what looked like three identical roses...a wonderful one, to be sure. Like you I'm wondering if there's a unique 'Mme. Knorr' in commerce. I have a fourth plant arrived from who knows where, that looks like these three, but I need to re-compare them all carefully to see whether there are differences. Thanks for reminding me of the dark Hybrid Perpetuals, a group I have no personal experience with, but consider worth looking into. I don't think 'Fantin-Latour' has much Centifolia about it either; I think it falls into the category of what Vintage calls Hybrid Bourbons. It's a wonderful rose, fragrant, vigorous, and healthy, and a pleasure just to handle. The Centifolias and Mosses generally do well for me, but I have easy conditions. With leggy plants sometimes I do have to prune harder: 'La Noblesse' is a good example, and I think I'll have to cut back 'Shailer's White Moss' more than I have in the past. This last rose, so beautiful, is showing bits of pink on a lot of its flowers this year. Suzy, after losing two purchased grafted plants of 'Hebe's Lip' (herbicide and mowing), I got cuttings in a swap and now have three plants of it growing around the property. They're young but growing fine and I'm looking forward to seeing them in their maturity. 'Coupe d'Hebe' is duly noted. Jaxondel, Okay, 'Marquis de Balbiano'; I'll keep it in mind. This is a great discussion. Melissa

I know quite well who Malcom Manners is, and have great respect for his knowledge and opinions. I do not agree with him that Austin roses do not belong in the Antiques forum, but disagreeing does not alter my high regard for his knowledge and opinions. Intelligent knowledgeable people do not have to agree on everything. Austin roses, while blackspot magnets in my climate (as are gallicas and HPs), do utilize a fair amount of OGR genes to get antique-type flower forms and fragrances, so I would allow them here, although the title on the page just says Antique Roses so I don't know what people are talking about when they complain about 'labeling' this forum 'Austins and Antiques'. And I have noticed that Austins are what you might call the 'gateway drug' for OGRs! that's how I got interested in true OGRs, and other people say so too. Here's a question for you all: do Paul Barden's roses qualify as Antiques or OGRs? If not why not? He would be on my short list of hybridizers whose roses I covet. He is a contemporary hybridizer working with the OGR classes to create new cultivars of OGRs - gallicas etc. Particularly his mosses are what I covet. (I have Treasure Trail too, labrea!) So is it the date of introduction that matters most, or is it the gene pool? Sounds like some of you are strict interpretationists who would disqualify Barden roses on grounds of being too modern even though they are just as much gallica or whatever as anything that appeared before 1867. I think it would be a very good idea for the knowledgeable rosarian to learn about the different hybridizers! Hybridizers generally have certain criteria they breed for and will produce roses more likely to be similar to each other in respect to those criteria than roses chosen at random. Knowing that a rose is a Kordes rose means something, after all, much more than knowing that it's a pink floribunda. For instance I'm wary of Austins because I know they get blackspot here, and I gravitate towards Bardens because I know he works in my climate and selects for disease resistance. I also gravitate towards hybrid musks, most of which come from one or two breeders. I know they do well here. So do Kordes roses. Bucks are not widely grown here as we do not get the intense winter cold they are bred to withstand, so I don't think I've ever even seen a Buck rose. Mariannese, I think your articles on breeders is an excellent idea. I have been doing something along the same lines for my local rose society newsletter, for what are probably the same reasons - introduce people to roses that are not mass-market cultivars, and to the philosophies and goals of hybridizers so they can look for roses more likely to do well for them based on hybridizer rather than by color or class or mass-market producer. I've only run one so far, on a local hybridizer who works with exhibition-form minifloras (Mitchie Moe of Washington State), but I would be very interested if you were willing to share articles. I'm concentrating on contemporary independent hybridizers, whose work may not be available in Sweden, and it sounds like you're concentrating on hybridizers whose work is more widely available.

..this might be a weed or illegal to plant in some areas and it's new to us here... a hybrid of the Surinam Cherry... Eugenia 'Etna Fire'... I love it's summer foliage and has myrtle like flowers from August - December, then these cherries appear in Spring... I grow it in a container...it's hardy to -7 celsius apparently and survives here so far for 2 years... it's quite a vigorous grower when the weather warms up... From From RE: Let's Talk Trees and Shrubs! Posted by: Marlorena UK (My Page) on Sun, Dec 28, 14 at 18:51 whoops...sorry folks.. something went wrong there... sincere apologies.... This post was edited by Marlorena on Sun, Dec 28, 14 at 18:56 RE: Let's Talk Trees and Shrubs! Posted by: GreenHearted 5a IL (My Page) on Wed, Dec 31, 14 at 13:13 Bellarosa ... as I expected. :( Thank you for confirming. Post a Follow-Up Your Name: Your Email Address: Zone (optional): Subject of Posting: Message: Optional Link URL: Name of the Link: A copy of further followups will be emailed to this poster. Return to the Perennials Forum This post was edited by Marlorena on Sun, Dec 28, 14 at 18:56