My personal favorite is The Squire. In my humble opinion, Oklahoma is better than Mr. Lincoln. The flowers are darker red, more refined, and smell stronger. There are huge healthy ten foot bushes of it around Santa Cruz. I've grown Papa Meilland budded and own root, presently I have a virus indexed own root plant from Vintage Gardens. In all these years and different permutations, it has grown in small zig-zags, and the flower color has been more magenta red than blackish crimson. I keep hoping it will improve and look like the pictures of Papa Meilland, but it won't perform unless coddled and given high culture. I've given up this year and ordered Charles Mallerin instead to replace Papa Meilland. Depending on your needs, these red roses are worthy of your attention: Black Baccara Oklahoma Royal Canadian Crimson Bouquet Lavaglut Sympathie Linda Campbell Black Jade Climbing Altissimo Doorenbos Selection (Camara is one of my favorites, but its coloring is vermilion with tips blushing black -- not a true red)

Accept advice from those of us living here in California with great caution. We don't have the summer humidity you face. While we do have diseases, our blackspot pressure is much less than yours. Many years I only spray once or twice at pruning time, and my garden is usually pretty healthy. In part this is because I remove any roses that need much more than this kind of treatment. Having said all this, I'll throw out my random bits and pieces. You can take them for what they are worth. When you say 'dramatic red', I'm not sure what you mean. Scarlet reds can be dramatic, and so can crimsons, and so can dark purply reds, and so can brilliant cherry reds,but putting them in a bed together without other colors to tone them down can be a disaster. Ask me how I know. Dame de Coeur and Alec's Red are both unusually healthy roses in my experience, but are a light, bright red, not a deep dramatic color. The healthiest fragrant dark red HT I have any experience with is Oklahoma. Also fitting that description is the HT Barcelona, but it is usually sold as the tea rose Francis Dubreuil. You can get that dramatic deep color from some of the HPs, but I can't imagine growing HPs unsprayed in North Carolina. I've had good luck with Austins Prospero, The Prince, and am now planting Tradescant, but these would probably need spray for you to grow them. The most dramatic healthy red climber I've ever seen was a mature Cl Etoile de Hollande. The most dramatic healthy red rambler I've ever seen was Chevy Chase. Both are stunning. Dortmund is healthy too, no scent and a brilliant cherry red. It is indeed dramatic, but would clash with most of these other reds. Now here's a trick. If you really, really, really want intense drama do this. Try out several different roses to see which you like best, and which is healthiest in your neck of the woods. Then do a mass planting of only one kind of rose. This is incredibly hard to do, and hardly anyone can force himself to do it, but nothing gives more impact than this. Rosefolly

Thank you, I do enjoy your postings. I open this forum every day, hoping for some postings of blooms of any kind, as the other rose forums are getting slower. For the month of November in Toronto, it's very strange to see roses still in bloom. We have had a long, dry, summer. Most trees are still holding on to about 75% of their leaves. so it's a lovely autumn too.

Smithdale, I'll look those up when I get a chance. Beautiful bouquet Mad Gallica. Towandaaz, Lovely pictures of Sunset Celebration, love that rose. I have a sentimental attachment to certain roses too. Beth, seems like I read somewhere that Sunset Celebration's color depends on the temperature. Forgotten Dreams is one that I have that I don't think very many people grow, it does great for me. Gives me loads of blooms and is fragrant. Meredith is a Carruth rose I don't hear much about, it's lovely and also has a nice fragrance. Amalia, a red Meilland rose is another good one.