Hi,If you have any left,would you consider sending plants for postage?I`m interested in red bee balm pink climbing rose mary rose grape vine mixed iris david phlox pink ground phlox pink tall phlox yellow loosestrife I could send postage for a flat rate box!(10.00) Robin

Mary and Brandon, I have to agree with both of you. Mary, I can understand your love of gardening, and don't want to take the love out of it to make it science. I am a gardener too, but I used to be a scientist, but then I guess there's never a "used to be" - I always will be a scientist whether or not that's what I do for a living. When I was working at it I was a botanist and worked in several different labs, both at universities for scientists on faculty and at medical centers for doctors/medical school professors. I used to be the one doing those studies, and like Brandon, I firmly believe in them. The journals where my work was published are very careful and have other scientists review the papers before they are accepted for publication. I remember one time when I observed something and repeated the experiment over and over always with the same result- like you said, Mary, - seeing is believing. I spent mind-boggling hours and hours, days and days, on the microscope counting and measuring to get sufficient numbers to be able to run statistics on. We called in the professor who taught the university Biometry course (biometry = the science of using statistics in life sciences). She worked on the numbers for a couple of weeks then told us she couldn't back up our findings. There was some missing data we had no way of obtaining. We were so disappointed, and that study was never published. I suppose we could have bent the rules as Mary said she observed, but we were ethical and just kept of working trying to fill in the blanks so we could eventually report our findings. Yes, there are disreputable people who publish studies that are questionable. Some have actually "padded their data" and reported findings that were false. Some of those people have been caught too and have lost their jobs and reputations! I still believe what I observed is true, but nobody in the scientific community will ever hear about it because my boss and I had more integrity than the people Mary described. A few posts back I mentioned a guy in Memphis who did an experiment with coffee grounds in his garden. If I had said he did a study that included statistics, Mary, would you have believed what he observed? Scientists actually DO garden and get dirt under their nails and mud on their gloves.Alan Armitage and Michael Dirr (you are probably familiar with those names) established studies at the University of Georgia on garden plants. Those studies find varieties that are best suited for our Southeastern US hot, humid, climate. Please check the link below that describes that they started and how it effects our gardening. You have to believe those "studies". Your gardens probably include some of those plants Drs. Armitage and Dirr found to be ideal for us to grow. I know I check the The Gardens at UGA to learn about new plants that can be counted on to grow well for me because they're suited for out climate and the UGA studies prove it. Looking at the results of those studies saves me a lot of money and time too. Time I can be enjoying my garden instead of worrying about this and that plant that I never should have planted in the first place. I hope to still be digging in the dirt when I'm in my 80's and 90's. Maybe by then some scientist will have come up with a foolproof way to eradicate slugs from our gardens.

— Archived thread.— No division perennials Posted by TamaraVa z7bVa on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 15:20 Hi everyone!! I need some input on some perennials that HATE to be divided. Last year I hurt my back so I am slowly converting my garden into a no divide zone.So far I have planted Baptisia,callihoe,Russian sage,and Iberis along with my shrubs.It is killing me to let go of my ornamental grasses(any ideas on a grass that wants to be left alone?)Asclepsia's are too buggy for me...always covered with aphids.Too bad,one year I had a bumper crop of monarch butterflies.Thanks in advance for any input. Tamara Posted by: iann z8/9 England on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 17:57 Iberis sempervirens? No need to divide it but you will need to cut it back after flowering. Sounds like a lot of bending down. --ian Posted by: Taryn S Ontario Z6B on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 19:15 Peony Papaver orientale Helleborus Dicentra eximia Know the feeling.... Taryn Posted by: Tim_Sullivan z4NY ) on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 19:22 Peonies, astilbe, Japanese anemone, ligularia "the rocket". lilies, daylilies, sedums . . . but here is a question: why do you feel you have to get rid of your grasses, etc? Surely you know people who would like a piece. Just invite them to come and take off a piece or two. Your grasses are still around, they're contained and someone else is very happy. Also, maybe try planting things that spread in five-gallon plastic buckets with the bottoms cut off. We do this all the time with things like mint and it works. Tim Posted by: Laurie_KY6 z6 KY on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 20:05 Astilbe? Now you tell me. My 'bible' on dividing (The Well Tended Perennial Garden) recommends dividing astilbes every 3 years or so. Sure enough, mine were huge by the third year. They were one tough job. I had to take a sharpened spade and jump on it to split the 'bulb'. I'm anxious to see what the divisions look like in the spring. Even cut in half, I had large astilbes to replant. I did a lot of dividing this fall and do not relish doing it again in the near future. Posted by: TamaraVa z7bVa on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 20:30 Thanks Laurie,I have to get that book (the bible).I just remembered she has a wonderful list in the back for just this subject. What does she say about echinacea? Now,Tim, can I really leave the grasses in the ground and just thin it out? I thought they died out from the center? Boy that would be great if I could just dig around a bit.I certainly don't have the giants of the grass world.I have Panicum"shenandoah" 4 ft tops and Muhlenbergia capilliaris( which I wouldn't give up, I'll pay someone to divide if I have to!!)Schizachyrium "the blues"will be manageable.Daylilies!! I can really leave them be? You folks have save the day with your kind suggestions!!.I can still have my old friends in the garden with the bum back. Tamara Posted by: david_5311 Z 5b/6a SE Mich on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 20:36 Geraniums (cranesbills, hardy g.) rarely if ever need dividing. I have plants of some that are at least 10 years old and are cruisin'. The books say divide, but only if the plant indicates a need (and that won't be often). Clematis, plant really well, wait, and they get good after 3 years, better after 10. Same with hellebores, Taryn mentioned them, you never touch them once they're in. Astilbes? I don't divide them unless I want more. And don't worry too much about what the RULES say. I have been gardening with perennials for a long time and I don't divide plants that much except when I want more. Plants don't read the books after all. Think of division mainly as a propagation method and not a garden chore. Posted by: enchantedplace z6OK on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 21:48 Platycodon (balloon flower).. Yes some hybrid day lilies do not need frequent division. Some lilies should also never be disturbed. We never divide our echinacea. Posted by: Brody 7/8 snst4 WA on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 22:03 Eryngiums, Gaura, Caryopteris. Sedges, like Carex pendula and Carex buchananii. Rodgersias, Cimicifuga, Columbine, Alstromeria, Kniphofia, Agapanthus, Campanula lactiflora. Lots more out there. Posted by: Taryn S Ontario Z6B on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 22:49 Got 'the bible' for Xmas and have it sitting beside the computer now. Re, Echinacea purpurea, author DiSabato-Aust places this in the 'perennials that may require division every 6-10 years' catagory, so that's not too bad. Although if you let some of the plants mentioned, including this one and Gaura, columbine, and other's on the author's extensive list go to seed, you'll be bending over pulling seedlings forever! Which won't help the back situation. David, I've found even though I feed the soil regularly with compost and organic matter, that some plants really start to deteriorate and not bloom as well if they aren't divided fairly regularly. Coreopsis and Hemerocallis spring to mind instantly. Guess those ones can read, lol. Then there are others, like bearded iris and monarda, that will happily bloom away without divison forever. They'll just swallow your garden whole! Get the book, it's a great resource. And check out the 'bummer' thread on conversations, might give you some ideas... Taryn Posted by: Paul299 z4 Minnesota on Thu, Jan 9, 03 at 4:03 Astilbe should be divided ever four or five years-otherwise they become very woody and less likely to survive dry spells and flower less. Hosta almost never need division to keep the plants happy. 20 years or more. I take it -- it's not a shady spot so I will not include the shade list: Adenophora Amsonia Anemone Artimisia Aruncus Baptisia Campanula - many of the larger ones with deep roots Dicentra spectabilis Echinacea Echinops Ephorbia Gypsophila Hibiscus Lathryus Liatris Lysimachia Macleaya Peony Perovskia Phlox paniculata Physostegia Platycodon Rodgersia Sedum -creeping types Thalictrum Tradscantia - many Trollius The above plants can be planted and left alone for many years with out a lot of work; Here is a small list of plants that should be divided every two or three years: Achillea milefolium hybrids Aconitum Aster- a few Astilbe Coreopsis lancifolia,grandiflora Dianthus - a few but not all, Gailardia Geranium - on a number it will improve flowering Heliopsis Heuchera Iris Leucanthemum Lobelia Lychnis Monarda Penstemon Salvia - some Phlox-the shorter species Polemonium Ruddbeckia Scabiosa Sisyrichium Tanacetum Veronica Nothing is written in stone, much depends how well you grow the plants and how long your growing season is. So this above lists are generalities. Posted by: TamaraVa z7bVa on Thu, Jan 9, 03 at 9:52 WoW, You have all given me plenty of options.I agree that gardening goes way beyond the books.For instance, I am always reading were Liatris Spicata does well in most places but I have managed to kill two of them.Further research leads me to believe it likes more moisture than I can provide.That is why I love forums , real gardeners telling real stories. Thanks Again,Tamara Posted by: palmandan 4 Vermont on Thu, Jan 9, 03 at 21:09 "HUH? That list from Paul has artemesia, lysimachia, macleaya, physotegia and tradescantia as plants that do not need to be divided often and can be left alone for many years." Yipes - NOT where I live. All those plants are aggressive spreaders for me. Interesting if they aren't for other folks. I was going to suggest heuchera (coral bells) - at least I have some heuchera palace purple planted in a circle around a sap bucket and they've been in the same place for 12 years. They self-seed, but it's easy to get the babies. I don't divide it that often. If you buy a REALLY expensive daylily you can bet it won't grow very fast :-) Posted by: david_5311 Z 5b/6a SE Mich on Thu, Jan 9, 03 at 22:03 One interesting thing I have learned reading this thread is that I mostly don't PLANT plants that require a lot of dividing. That's why I have the sense that most plants don't need it. I have few daylilies and they mostly aren't my cuppa tea. And yes, Taryn is right, there are a few other plants that probably have declined over the years as a result of my 'divisional neglect', leaving a HOLE, a SPACE in my otherwise crowded garden... a great spot to try something new. And yet another reason not to fret too much about dividing plants. Posted by: Paul299 z4 Minnesota on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 7:44 "HUH? That list from Paul has artemesia, lysimachia, macleaya, physotegia and tradescantia as plants that do not need to be divided often and "can be left alone for many years. "Yipes - NOT where I live. All those plants are aggressive spreaders for me." That is why they do not need to be divided often -they will spread out and take care of themselves. Those plants that need division are those that grow to thickly and crowd them selves out and/or develop woody type stems or roots that do not over winter as well as "new" stems and roots. These plant can be put in the land scape and be left to there own care as long as they have the room to spread out. And besides a large drift of one plant tends to look better that a jumble of many single but different plants. Posted by: Paul299 z4 Minnesota on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 7:55 " I was going to suggest heuchera (coral bells) - at least I have some heuchera palace purple planted in a circle around a sap bucket and they've been in the same place for 12 years" From here in Minnesota have to replant Heuchera every three years, most of the time because they tend to grow out of the ground- that is the growing point of the stem keeps growing upward. Then during winter the stems that are above ground is killed off in March during our warm days and cold nights. Though I have 40 some Huechura (that I can not remember what they- one of the purple-red foliage types) that have been in the ground for about 8 years and they are still alive, but sure would grow and look better if I got in there and replanted them deeper. Posted by: Marg504 z5PA on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 9:32 May I add Dictamnus albus to the list. It resents being disturbed. Has attractive, glossy leaves. No disease or pest problems. The growth habit and size is much like that of a peony. Flowering time is only about 2 weeks in early to mid June, but the seed pods are attractive. I found it to be a pretty plant throughout the growing season. The drawback is that the lemony scented oils (Yes, the oils will ignite briefly when a lit match is held close) of the leaves can cause a skin rash on contact for some people. This happened to my dh when he mulched under the plants after scratching up his bare arms while mulching under the junipers. The lesson here is to wear gloves and long sleeves to mulch the junipers, not to ban the dictamnus from the gardens! Posted by: TamaraVa z7bVa on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 10:38 I also find in this area that Heuchera needs to be divided every other year or it disappears.In fact in this area I have never seen an impressive clump(except for H.Villosa).You all got me interested in Helleborus so I went out to do some research.If I can keep up with the seedlings it sounds absolutely wonderful.I have come to the conclusion that the perennials that don't need dividing are the type 1)that need space to go through their waxing and waning and 2)can self seed vigorously.I will have to look up Dictamnus ,it sounds so lovely.Best Wishes,Tamara Posted by: Johnnieb Washington, DC on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 12:48 Peonies are the classic never-divide perennials. Siberian irises likewise make good clumps that rarely need division. But I wouldn't recommend bearded irises, which have creeping rhizomes that are best divided and replanted every 2-3 years (plus the foliage looks ratty after blooming). Posted by: GreenGene on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 18:13 Add hostas to your list. They almost never need it and look better if you don't. I've never tried any of the newer daylillies, but the older cheap ones spread way too much. Gene Posted by: sbeuerlein zone 6 on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 19:15 For those of you bible thumpers (Tracy Disabato-Aust fans), you'll be pleased to know she has a new book due out very soon. I think the topic is about incorporating shrubs into the perennial border. has it listed as a future release. Scott Posted by: TamaraVa z7bVa on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 20:17 Scott,I'll have to check that one out.I sat in Barnes and Noble the other day looking up all the great suggestions.Speaking of shrubs has anyone heard of Danae Racemosa.It has quite a history .The common name is Poet's Laurel.The leaves use to crown Athletes,poets,and orators in ancient times.Plant history has always intrigued me.How could I resist? I went over to the shrub web and found out it is a member of the lily family and produces pretty red berries in the winter.It likes shade and grows to 3x3 and STAYS there.My kind of shrub!So,I'm thinking about pairing it with helleborus orientalis.Tamara Posted by: Tiffy_z6aCan 6a on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 20:28 Tamara, ...Antique roses don't need division... :) From another gardener with back muscle spasms and a reoccuring slip disc... :( Nicole. Posted by: TamaraVa z7bVa on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 22:08 Oh Nicole, You understand So much!!LoL ;) (funny, my rose list has been growing over the past year)Tamara Posted by: hoehum z5/6 PA on Sat, Jan 11, 03 at 8:40 The only perennial I've found that must be divided is Shasta Daisy -- they dend to die out in the middle after 3-4 years. All the rest just spread happily or stay put. Heuchera has a tendency to pop out. I either yank it out to give away or mash it back in during spring when the ground is soft and damp. My astilbe has never been divided. About 5 years ago I sliced off some edges to make more. Posted by: laceyvail zone 5b, WV on Sat, Jan 11, 03 at 8:51 You mention that you have planted Callirhoe. I assume you put in C. involucrata because it is readily available. Little known and very hard to find is C. digitata. This is a gorgeous scrim plant, 4-5 feet tall on thin, pale, nearly leafless, grey-green stems, with the same wine cups up and down the stems. From a slight distace, they look as if they are floating. A great plant. Whenever I look at it, I can hardly believe it is not better known. Carroll Gardens is the only nursery I know of that sells it. Oh,of course, no division needed. Posted by: TamaraVa z7bVa on Sat, Jan 11, 03 at 18:48 Laceyvail, Thanks for the info on C.digitata.I am a great fan of Callihoe and yes,my plant is C.involucrata. Funny thing is I planted it before did any research on it(besides the catalog description)Oddly, my huge Botanica "Bible" didn't list it so I searched through some other books.That is were I discovered it's long carrot-like taproot.Just in time because I was planning on moving it this spring.What I love is the way it weaves around its neighbors.I remember looking out the window one day wondering what that lavender bloom was on my panicum grass!I always hoped to achieve that with hardy geraniums but they hate our heat here.I agree with you.It's hard to believe the whole lot isn't better known.That plant bloomed for months and is still evergreen.It has a fascinating way of dieing back to the crown after flowering then coming back with gorgeous cut leaf foliage.My plant is the var.tenuissima(mexican wine cups).I believe they have one out called Logan's White,only I hate to pay Plant Delights shipping of 16.00 so I may look into your mentioned callihoe.Thanks Again,Tamara Posted by: katybird_PA z6 PA on Tue, Jan 14, 03 at 10:57 I don't think I saw it mentioned so I will recommend Lavender (especially pretty with Antique Roses).

Thanks to ChrisMD on the MidAtlantic Gardening forum for saving this great thread mentioning a range of lesser-known plants for fall color. * Posted by david_5311 Z 5b/6a SE Mich on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 8:39 I love fall in the garden, the asters, grasses, goldenrods, boltonias, anemones...all at peak. But along with all these common fall plants there are a couple of treasures, "unsung heroes" that more people should grow. The first is Caryopteris divaricata. Though related to the common shrubby caryopteris, this is a true herbaceous plant. It looks like a large salvia, maing a 4' mass of foliage all season which stands up straight and holds its place in the garden. Then in the fall, it makes a cloud of these way-cool orchid like flowers. The boss of stamens at the top makes an arch over the flowers, which are much showier than the standard shrubby caryopteris, at least individually. The plant needs to be planted where you can enjoy the flowers up close. The second plant I just love and rarely see is Chelone lyonii 'Hot Lips'. The turtleheads are all wonderful garden plants, they possess a great quiet beauty and toughness. I also grow C. obliqua which is very nice. But 'Hot lips' has such great foliage, almost a blackish green. Even in this hot dry year, the plant has the presence of a fine shrub throughout the garden season with its pristine dark foliage. And it has been blooming for weeks now. So do you have an "unsung hero" for the fall garden? * Posted by: tewk21 z6 NJ on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 9:21 At this time of year I really relish my cimifuga stand. I have a couple of varieties in a bunch and the profusion of bottlebrushes above the dense black green foliage is striking. * Posted by: gardenbug Canada zone 5 on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 9:52 I am enjoying cimicifugas, anemones (white, pink and bright pink), keringeshoma palmata, many grasses, ferns, cyclamen, "naked ladies" also known as colchicums, gaura in pink and white, pink turtlehead, hydrangea Kiushu and that wonderful dark purple ironweed (vernonia). The berries on the Jack in the Pulpits are amazing this year. I am not happy with my weeping caryopteris and need to check out yours David. I wonder if it is hardy up here in USDA 4? Do you have a picture? * Posted by: Marieluise Zone 4-4b on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 10:27 I have both Caryopteris Longwood Blue and one other (can't think of name now but has lime green leaves) and they are both blooming. The best ever this year. My Russian Sage has been going strong and so have my two butterfly bushes. My Kirengsoma unforunately although it has lots of blooms, they are turning brown and falling off. The drought I guess and we did not water very much this year. Pink turtlehead, guara, plumbago and the cone flowers. Plus Chocolate Boneset has flower heads and my Sweet Autumn Clematis might bloom before Christmas! * Posted by: NancyD 5/6 Rochester, NY on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 10:49 Thanks for sharing. I'm always looking for more fall plants. I have the chelone, but never heard of that caryopteris variety. The one I recommend is not a perennial, but a lovely shrub called Lespedeza or common name, bush clover. Abundant, small pea-like flowers in shades of white, pink or purple. Much needed this time of year. If you have the space I highly recommend it. Not extremely cold tolerant, but does fine for me. * Posted by: Dicentra SE PA z6B on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 11:09 I absolutely LOVE my caryopteris sub-shrubs! I have the 'Blue Mist' variety and they get better with each passing year. My panicum grass 'Dalla Blues' is starting to send out plumes and it's quite striking with the blue-tinted blades. Gaura is a newbie one for me and I love the pinkish 'butterflies' which seem to float right at the stem tips. My yellow butterfly bushes ususally bloom well into November here...I don't think I could garden without them...lol. And a plug for trees...Kousa Dogwood is splended with those long-lasting flowers and now red fruits...very appealing (although messy). * Posted by: Teri2 6/7 TN on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 11:35 I thought Lespedeza was considered invasive via seed dispersion. Correct me if I'm wrong; that's just lodged in my memory somehow. My unsung fall hero is the annual vine, Cardiospermum (Love in a Puff). Mine is just now covering itself with teeny, tiny white flowers which will morph into large, papery, tan puffs. I have mine on a trellis against the wall but I've also had fun with volunteers climbing over shrubs that would otherwise be boring by this time. * Posted by: wanda Z9 CA on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 11:46 My garden is full of Salvias going into bloom this time of year. Lots of blue , purple, red and some yellow & white. Thunbergia greggori is also putting on a show. The Anemones are starting to open. A real show stopper is the Ruellia brittonia which is going gangbusters with non-stop purple flowers. I also have a new to me plant that I got this spring, Spiranthes, which is starting to open. Trachelium is another neat fall bloomer and Aster frikartii. * Posted by: yogagal 5-Northern IL on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 11:52 The native woodland aster, Aster divaricatus, is totally underused in the fall shade garden. It spreads slowly as a groundcover, the leaves always look clean and are never ratty, and in the fall it's covered with a ton of white flowers on dark, wirey, stems about 12" above the foliage. Good mix with ferns or heuchera. * Posted by: maine_gardener Z4 Me on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 13:01 I have to add one more for the fall it does prefer partly shade . Toad Lilys. Mine are just starting to open. * Posted by: gardenbug Canada zone 5 on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 13:13 The turtleheads are so neat and not bothered a bit by insects. I also love verbena bonariensis at this time with the grasses and Russian Sage too. A few clematis are still adding color to the garden as well. * Posted by: Kevin_5 z5 on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 13:30 I have Phlox 'David' in full fragrant bloom now--not sure if that is its normal bloom time or if planting small plants in spring caused it to be delayed. Either way, a nice plant. I second Kirengeshoma, just opening here. Not to forget trees, as Franklinia and Heptacodium are blooming like mad with superior fragrance. * Posted by: buxusareyou z6 NC on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 16:11 Hey David, How 'bout the pungent scent of the foliage of Caryopteris divaricata? Brush against it and, phew... what is it remniscent of? A real conversation piece! Lovely species. * Posted by: Taba z5b MO on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 16:15 Great thread. Lots of good ideas. I'm so tired of mums and asters at all the garden centers. I love fall-blooming bulbs - not sure how little-known they are. Last year I planted an assortment of fall-blooming crocus and colchium and they were gorgeous. Some very late blooms. They aren't up yet here but I saw lots of them yesterday at a local public garden. Not sure if I should be concerned about mine or not! Time will tell. * Posted by: Chelone z6 so. Maine on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 16:43 Hear, hear! for Chelone. Don't miss out on Chelone obliqua and Chelone glabra. I prefer both to the more commonly available lyonii. This is a plant that has rather "gone out of favor" over the years as showier plants have arrived on the scene. It is wonderful in combination with Dicentra spectabilis, Hostas, FERNS, and (I'm told) Aconitums. I have no disease troubles and only an occasional nibble on its leaves. Chelone glabra is a native wildflower in my region of the country and it is truly breathtaking at nearly 4'H in a moist area! I adore Cimicifugas, Kirengeshoma palmata, and Dictamnus. Another overlooked plant is Hibiscus. OUTSTANDING! * Posted by: blazingstar z8GA on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 19:29 Your Caryopteris looks alot like my Blue Butterflies (Clerodenrum ugandese). I think like Barry Glick, that somebody must have missnamed it. My bush has square stems, the leaves are bigger than yours though, but I just went out and crushed a leaf, and it stinks too. I bought it this spring and it has been blooming ever since, no signs of it letting up either. As far as I have been told, it will come back from the roots here in zone 8. Bumblebees go crazy over it, but they have to climb over the flower to the back somehow, to get the nectar. They might be the only ones that can get to it. Very interesting, check it out. * Posted by: Kevin_5 z5 on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 20:02 The Franklinia has been through one winter, with a low of 18 below. No damage from the winter. It leafed out then got whacked by a 24 degree freeze in late May, which caused tips to die back, but it releafed and is covered in flower buds/flowers. So far, a tough tree! * Posted by: david_5311 Z 5b/6a SE Mich on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 20:44 Hey blazingstar - you're right!!! the flowers of Caryopteris divaricata do look a LOT like Clereodendrum ugandense. Same exact flower form, I always had the sense that I had seen this one before. It's uncanny, they must be adapted to the same pollinator - a bumblebee hunchback perhaps. * Posted by: NotEnoughRoses 7b/NTX on Fri, Sep 13, 02 at 22:13 Tagetes lucida (Mexican Mint Marigold) and Compositae Tagetes lemmonii (Copper Canyon Daisy) are my two favorites. Malvaviscus drummondii (Turk's Cap) blooms straight through from summer til first frost. Salvia greggii (another that blooms all season to the first frost) Reblooming irises... Cassia lindheimeri (Velvet leaf senna) Grasses - Muhlenbergia capillaris and Muhlenbergia filipes (natives) and Pennisetum alopecuroides 'Moudry' (new favorite from last fall - highlight of October garden tour). Shrubs - Encore azaleas started blooming last week. If this year is anything like last, they will bloom off and on through spring. Camellias... Roses here are incredible in the fall - almost as good as the spring flush. I grow 100+ roses - mostly antiques - Duchesse de Brabant is one of the best for fall bloom. Also love Belinda's Dream. Not uncommon to have a few roses still going at Christmas time. (Maggie, a 'found' rose, and Anna de Diesbach were both blooming last 12-25.) ~ Suzie * Posted by: Taryn S Ontario Z6B on Sat, Sep 14, 02 at 0:16 David, what an informative thread. I have a question about your Chelone pic; is the photo true to the actual colour of the plant? I'm asking because it looks awfully much like my pink Chelone, but I wouldn't describe the leaves on mine as blackish green. Deep, deep green, and resistant to almost anything, with regular watering. This plant was here when we bought the home in April of '98, and is now a scrumptious 4'X4' mound, and has been blooming for several weeks now. I have spread it about to a couple of other locations as well. I thought it was C. obliqua, but whatever it is, I adore it! My newly found favourite fall-blooming perennial is Patrinia scabiosifolia, or 'Golden Lace'. I grew this from seed in the winter of 2001, and am thrilled with the delicate, airy heads of lemon yellow blooms. I will put Verbena bonariensis with it next season, will be a knockout fall combo. Thanks for a great read... * Posted by: david_5311 Z 5b/6a SE Mich on Sat, Sep 14, 02 at 7:46 The picture of chelone 'Hot lips' is absolutely true to color except the flowers look more washed out in the picture. In 'real life' the flowers are more of a rich rose pink. The foliage IS that rich blackish gray green, even richer than shown in the photo. That's why I say it had a strong presence in the garden through the summer as a foliage plant. A really good garden selection. * Posted by: Andy_Japan z9 on Sat, Sep 14, 02 at 19:31 A valuable thread. After a long hot summer everyone loves fall and this season has some of the best performers. I also love caryopteris and patrinia and chelone and cimicifuga. Asters and mums of course are better known. (David I lost my Franklinia here in zone 9--it toppled during the fall typhoon season and never recovered.) The sedums are well known but my absolute favorite is a ground cover, s. pluricaule, which starts blooming for me in early September and will go on for many weeks. It is hardy to zone 3. * Posted by: penney5 6 on Sat, Sep 14, 02 at 19:48 My favorite plant in fall: Eupatorium coelestinum aka mistflower(why doesn't everyone grow this?) What else is blooming right now here(zone5/6) Rudbeckia triloba Salvia azurea Anemones Datura innoxia Malvia moschata Buddleias China aster (annual) And still to flower: Boltonia asteroides Toad lilies Hardy pink chrysanthemum * Posted by: Geranium Z5/MA on Sat, Sep 14, 02 at 21:52 Ah - someone has finaly mentioned Boltonia. The wispy pink variety has been bloming for several weeks, but the white B. 'Snowbank' is just coming out. I have it planted among ornamental grasses and also at the back of a long border with New England Asters and Sedums. One of the last things to bloom for me is Aster tartaricus, often as late as early November. For the front of the garden, I love the Alliums - especially A. senescens glaucum (the Curly Chive) and A. thunbergii 'Ozawa', an October bloomer. The former is in full bloom now and will go on for weeks. * Posted by: gardenbug Canada zone 5 on Sat, Sep 14, 02 at 22:50 I forgot to mention corydalis. I have 'lutea', the longest blooming plant on earth I firmly believe. I also have the lavender flowered form blooming still. Both nice in different areas. * Posted by: Andy_Japan z9 on Sun, Sep 15, 02 at 4:48 Chelone, I'm glad you mentioned acontium. I was just in the garden today--finally a break in the heat--and noticed my acontiums don't even have buds, that's how late they bloom for me. There are spring-flowering species too, so check first. For you blue lovers, aconitum is outstanding. * Posted by: david_5311 Z 5b/6a SE Mich on Sun, Sep 15, 02 at 11:21 Well, how 'bout a few more. No one has mentioned cyclamen hederifolium, it is one of the joys of the fall garden, just emerging now. And leadwort, ceratostigma plumbaginoides, is now coming into full bloom. One of the few plants which actually excels in dry shade, and rose red fall color next month adds to the show Last for now is perhaps my favorite (well, OK, one of my favorites) plant of fall, the fabulous soft yellow daisy helianthus 'Lemon Queen'. Tough and easily grown, 7' tall in lean soil with no staking, though some of mine do flop down (so you can appreciate the soft color of the flowers. Blooms a solid 6 weeks, now at peak . * Posted by: Storygardener 5/6 central oh on Sun, Sep 15, 02 at 11:35 These ideas are GREAT. Don't forget eupatorium rogosa chocolate - with it's dark foliage and pretty white flowers! * Posted by: chouchou z5b ONT on Sun, Sep 15, 02 at 14:38 I'm in love with my agastache rupestris right now. I like everything about this plant; foliage, flowers and scent. My "Pamina" anemone is beautiful too and it is such a well-behaved anemone - stays where I put it. "Alma Potschke" aster is just beginning its very vivid display, in spite of the relentless drought it has had to endure this season. * Posted by: ChrisMD 7 on Sun, Sep 15, 02 at 15:47 I am very interested in Heleniums. 3 to 6 foot plants topped with clusters of quarter sized flowers in yellows, golds and reds. As with so many other native American plants, it seems that most of the cultivars have been bred in Europe and are not available yet here in the US. * Posted by: Bejoy PNW8 on Sun, Sep 15, 02 at 16:03 WOW! Great ideas here for fall flowering plants. Never heard of many of them. Guess I will go hunting. I have Coreopsis , Rudbekia, Allium, Roses, Butterfly bushes, Blackberry Lilies, Hardy Aster, Violas and Pansies, Geraniums, Stell D' Oro and some foxglove still blooming. My Kaffir lily is in bud so will be blooming soon too. These are commonly grown ones..but I love their blooms. * Posted by: david_5311 Z 5b/6a SE Mich on Sun, Sep 15, 02 at 17:12 I'm right there with Chris, I LOVE heleniums too. Mine are just going by now, didn't get any great pics this year, but love the rust/orange ones. I am also with chouchou. My favorite jap anemone is Pamina too, and I love the way Agastache rupestris just finds its own spot. This one just seeded here, it's not 'supposed' to be there, but makes a nice contrast with the tight form of Buxus 'Graham Blandy' And being a geranium nut, I have to show a geranium which I believe will be a great fall plant (and summer too), that being the new geranium 'Rozanne'. It has the wonderful marbled foliage and long late bloom of 'Buxton's Variety, its parent, without being quite so fussy. The flowers are getting more blue as the weather cools. * Posted by: Yondertree Oregon coast on Sun, Sep 15, 02 at 21:56 My favorite salvia, S. darcyi, is at its peak now, a cheery tall red that simply clicks all the colors of the garden together around it. It reconciles the Rudbekia and the Penstamon with the Japanese Anemone, amazing. The foliage has a lovely lemony fragrance when you brush against it. It made it through last winter, but I will save a few cuttings this year to be sure to have it again. * Posted by: gardenbug Canada zone 5 on Sun, Sep 15, 02 at 23:17 Now David, I did mention cyclamen way back at the start. I love them so much...grew them from seed. I agree with all of Chouchou's choices too. My blue lobelias are blooming nicely now also and look nice near the pink turtlehead. The cardinal flowers are also still blooming away in another area. * Posted by: Taryn S Ontario Z6B on Sun, Sep 15, 02 at 23:25 Yes, Cyclamen hederifolium is wonderful when it's happily placed. Likes my dry shade. I've got 'Cyclamen-leaved Violet' (Viola koreana 'Syletta') going like gangbusters in the greenhouse, which I hope will give me the wonderful silver-embossed foliage for more of the season than the cyclamen does. * Posted by: Andy_Japan z9 on Mon, Sep 16, 02 at 7:20 Taba, I like the fall-blooming bulbs too but if you like a tidy garden, watch out. The foliage from colchicums, for example, stays nice and green all winter, then begins to yellow in spring. And it takes its sweet time too. Sterbergia is my favorite since the foliage, which is bright green and strappy all winter, disappears without a whole lot of fuss in spring. If you plant them now they will bloom in a couple of weeks. * Posted by: Eric_OH 6a on Mon, Sep 16, 02 at 9:19 Once you get over the inaccurate catalog description, Heteropappus 'Blue Knoll' is an attractive aster-like annual/?perennial (it should have been named 'Pale Lavender Knoll'). I also like Patrinia scabiosifolia, a great late summer and fall perennial which also has some purplish foliage color as the weather cools. And Panicum 'Dallas Blues' is in full flower here. Hoping for good foliage color later in the season. * Posted by: david_5311 Z 5b/6a SE Mich on Mon, Sep 16, 02 at 9:39 Hey Andy, Sterbergia is lovely! Never heard of it. Do you know anything about hardiness? And how about it getting eaten by mice/voles? I plant lots of crocus in my garden including the autumn forms, but they don't last since I suspect they get eaten. I like colchicums too but I am not a fan of the foliage as you rightly point out. You need to plant them near the front of a border to see them, and the foliage is so ugly in late spring. * Posted by: Dicentra SE PA z6B on Mon, Sep 16, 02 at 10:29 Forgot to mention...Fall Crocus! Found the beauties blooming away now in the garden :) * Posted by: sbeuerlein on Mon, Sep 16, 02 at 11:25 Solidago rugosum "Fireworks" is a really terrific cultivar, just starting its show. Anemone x japonica "Bressingham Glow" is a very nice plant. Callicarpa berries are just turning now too, very nice. * Posted by: Eric_OH 6a on Fri, Sep 27, 02 at 10:46 One other Caryopteris that should be grown more is C. incana, which has blue and white-flowered varieties. It's rated hardy only to zone 7, but can be raised from seed to flower by early September of the same year. Great fall bloomer, probably would be a knockout planted with Patrinia. * Posted by: buxusareyou z6 NC on Fri, Sep 27, 02 at 11:06 David - Sternbergia is probably a tad tender (Zone 6 - my guess) for you. But you should give it a go, nevertheless. The late William Hunt who gardened and wrote about gardening for years in Chapel Hill, NC had thousands of these flowering in the fall. It was quite a sight! * Posted by: spec4lover z7 VA on Fri, Sep 27, 02 at 11:27 For years, ajania was incorrectly classified as a chrysanthemum. I think the leaves are much more interesting, though. It will bloom here in October. A link to blooms is given below. Today, my cannas are providing a lot of color in the yard, as are the reblooming daylilies and the crape myrtles. The caryopteris are almost finished, sadly, but the buddleia keep on going due to deadheading. Lavenders are in varying stages of bloom in my yard, with the Musteads in full or slightly past full bloom and the Provence and other larger ones still in bud. Chaste trees can also provide some color at this time of year, if they are cut back after the first bloom. (I had both the blue and white blooming at this time last year, but am saving the seed this year, so...no blooms.) My hydrangea paniculatas, especially the Tardiva, are providing some color to the yard, too. And as others have said, the lovely toadlilies or Tricyrtis have yet to bloom--that's another for October. * Posted by: Teri2 6/7 TN on Fri, Sep 27, 02 at 15:11 David - I never know how many of my spring crocus will return either so I don't plan on any. I just replant every year. Same with Sternbergia in the fall. They're a little pricier so I can't plant too many but I do put a dozen or so in an easily visible spot. For me, they provide the thrill of fresh, new growth at a time when the rest of the garden is beautiful but bittersweet. * Posted by: Taba z5b MO on Fri, Sep 27, 02 at 16:10 My Colchicum Rose and Giant are finally shooting up. The foliage is a bit untidy and yellow in spring, but I like the bit of green in winter. I haven't tried Sternbergia and it's a bit too late for this fall so maybe next year. It does look really lovely. Lots of great ideas in this thread. I'll add it to the FAQ so it doesn't disappear off GW. So who has a great picture of an unusual fall-blooming plant? (Something you took yourself and would like to donate for the FAQ.) * Posted by: ladybug6a 6a ontario on Fri, Sep 27, 02 at 22:52 You all forgot Solidago (Golden rod). I just love the yellow with the commen Aster. * Posted by: Taryn S Ontario Z6B on Fri, Sep 27, 02 at 23:11 LOL Ladybug! The post was about 'little known' fall bloomers. I would say that many of us know the common Asters and Golden Rod, though there are some nice cultivars out there. Many who suffer with allergies know the latter a bit too well! P.S. Tricyrtis hirta 'Miyazaki' is in bud, I'm soo excited! (first year from seed!) * Posted by: Andy_Japan z9 on Sat, Sep 28, 02 at 2:56 So glad this thread resurfaced, cause I love this season. Eric, we have c. incana all over--they reseeded last year--and as you said they will bloom the first year. Yours are lovely. Spec4, I had no idea ajania wasn't a chrysanthemum! Anyway, as you say, the foliage is a whole lot nicer. I'm love gentiana scabra, a really late bloomer. My first bloom opened yesterdday. True blue--nice for a rock garden, cause they're small. * Posted by: Taryn S Ontario Z6B on Sun, Sep 29, 02 at 23:19 Andy, that is so pretty! If you manage to get some seed from them, I'd be very interested... * Posted by: Bob_R z6 Ontario on Mon, Sep 30, 02 at 0:56 Great thread David! I'd like to add Begonia grandis, which is at its peak. And I'd like to single out a tricyrtis which is unlike others in habit and flower - macranthopsis is trailing and has yellow flowers, a few of which are just starting to open (this is a new plant for me and I'm seeing it bloom for the first time). Bob * Posted by: Marg504 z5PA on Tue, Oct 1, 02 at 6:38 How long will it take to get the word out that "golden rod" is not responsible for fall allergies. It is the pollen of "ragweed" that is to be blamed for all that misery. Golden Rod justly deserves a place in our fall gardens * Posted by: spec4lover z7 VA on Tue, Oct 1, 02 at 10:04 My toad lilies are beginning to bloom!!! The speckled ones (I haven't looked up their names and the book is at home) are simply lovely and loaded with buds. The white ones didn't do as well this year. I read today that they should be watered when climate is in drought. I had them mulched and didn't water. It really looks like the speckled blooms didn't miss a beat, but perhaps that's why the poor showing on the white ones. It's a pretty little flower... Recent rains have made some of the reblooming daylilies shoot up new scapes. Radiant Ruffles and Siloam David Kirchhoff and So Excited are some of the prettiest ones!!! * Posted by: Andy_Japan z9 on Tue, Oct 1, 02 at 19:44 Spec4 and Taryn, glad you like this gentian. Taryn, this thread said little known, not easy to grow, LOL They are so difficult, they are often considered annual, but I got mine to survive and flower after three tries ;-) Last night Japan was hit by Typhoon 21 (no names, just numbers!) and I'll go outside later to check to see if anything is left of my garden. Any seeds that might develop have you name on them. BTW, toadlily has a muuuuch nicer name over here--it is called (Japanese) nightingale (hototogisu). * Posted by: Brody 7/8 snst4 WA on Fri, Oct 4, 02 at 8:09 I'll second the Begonia grandis, and Cyclamen hederifolium, too. Schizostylus coccinea and its varieties are also great for fall, even into winter if the weather is mild. But my favorite is Nerine bowdenii, which should be blooming in about a week in my garden. Lots of hardy geraniums are still going strong, and Crocosmia 'Emily McKenzie is too. Great ideas, everyone! * Posted by: Dicentra SE PA z6B on Fri, Oct 4, 02 at 9:29 Marg, I agree! I love Goldenrod and have it planted towards the back of a native plantings area. It's showy and tough, especially in a garden setting. * Posted by: david_5311 Z 5b/6a SE Mich on Sat, Oct 12, 02 at 10:05 Hi all, I have been gone 2 weeks but I am happy to see more contributions to this thread! I agree with Andy that fall is a wonderful time in the garden. One of the first things we all have to do on returning from a trip, of course, is to see how the garden is *doing* and what we have missed (even if it is pitch black outside, right? LOL). One of my treats on return is to see this little known treasure, Salvia koymae, in full bloom now. I expected it to bloom earlier but it is certainly welcome in October. This started as just a single plant this spring, now covering a 3' circle. I hope it will not be too agressive a spreader, because it certainly has won my heart. * Posted by: Taryn S Ontario Z6B on Sun, Oct 13, 02 at 4:41 Tricyrtis hirta 'Miazaki' is stunning, first year from seed! As is Begonia grandis. Patrinia scabiosifolia is remarkable too (in its second year). The bees and wasps seem really taken with it, drunk on it almost, LOL! I moved 3 plants from my trailer park (which we are leaving) to my front garden, and couldn't get most of the bugs off them. They were quite happy to stay on the blooms enroute, and are still glued to them now! I didn't cut them back before digging, and they are still blooming their fool heads off, with a bit of staking for support while they settle into their new homes. * Posted by: Andy_Japan z9 on Sun, Oct 13, 02 at 21:04 David, how frustrating to learn about a Japanese native from someone in Michigan, lol! I LOVE it. Too bad I don't have any shade to put it it. I did some research and in Japanese it's called Nagano (place name, remember the winter Olympics?) autumn paulownia! And Taryn, I've already got seeds of patrinia germinating for next year. (Only had one this year.) A great addition to any fall garden! * Posted by: girlgroupgirl 7b on Sun, Oct 13, 02 at 21:16 This year I planted a Forsythia Sage (will bloom next year), the shorter version of tartarian aster and a climbing aster which is absolutely the most beautiful lavendar color! It took me a few years to figure out what would give me the most continuous and latest blooms. The trick is to make sure they well placed (not to close to others, not too far away as to be just islands in a bed of green or dirt). I also purchased a plant listed as Kunata (sp?) but it is a creeping mat forming plant with small pink ball heads. Pretty, blooming now but would be super invasive if not where it was planted. I like the Caryopteris/clerondenrum. I think I am going to add this to my want list! * Posted by: krista_marie 5 on Sun, Oct 13, 02 at 22:15 My Wonder of Staffa aster has been blooming into November for the last three years along with my Iceberg rose. I couldn't be happier. My mums, plumbago, agastache, caryopteris, and salvia are all blooming their heads off. That will probably end with the frost tonight. * Posted by: Eric_OH 6a on Sun, Oct 20, 02 at 0:02 Reading some of the comments about asters, I get the feeling that people are overlooking these plants based on their familiarity with roadside asters, and instead plunking down money for potted mums which are hit-or-miss when it comes to hardiness. Aster oblongifolius (forms of which are sometimes sold as 'Raydon's Favorite' or 'Fanny's Aster') is one highly adaptable species that thrives from zone 5 on down to the Gulf Coast. A. tataricus and A. elliottii (a tall Florida native with pink flowers, good for hot climates) are other species worth investigating. And I've seen few mums that could match 'Prof. von Kippenburg's performance in my garden this year: * Posted by: david_5311 Z 5b/6a SE Mich on Sun, Oct 20, 02 at 7:38 I'll just put in a sideline to asters, after Erics comments. There are many good asters, and as he said one of the most gardenworthy is A. oblongifolius. 'Raydon's favorite' is a great plant, has a very nice tight 'shrub-like' appearance in bloom, and fairly late bloom. I have grown some other cultivars of this species too. One slight problem I have had up here is that they seem a bit marginal in hardiness, I have lost them some years. My favorite asters, which would qualify as little known since I have rarely seen them in gardens (and maybe never heard anyone else talk about them in the forums) are cultivars of the species A. laevis. My absolute favorite is a tall (4-5') variety with rich lavendar flowers and dark purple red stems call 'Calliope'. It is a great garden plant throughout the season beacause of its dark stems, which make a wondeful light-dark color echo with the plant in bloom. The other fabulous cultivar of A. laevis worth growing is 'Bluebird', also a shrubby mass of rich lavendar in bloom, not bothered by so many of the problems which plague the more common New England asters. Finally, I will put in a plug for the native Aster ericoides, the heath aster. These plants make clouds of white to pale pink or lavendar blooms, are ideal in poor soils, but will also do well in average garden soil. I rarely if ever see them in gardens but they are good plants. Heronswood used to carry quite a few named cultivars. * Posted by: zrusilla z5 Chi,IL on Mon, Oct 21, 02 at 16:52 Heath aster grows wild all over the neighborhood around my office. I recently dug up a sample from a vacant lot and plunked it in my parkway garden. I also did the same for butter-and-eggs (toadflax.) * Posted by: Eric_OH 6a on Mon, Oct 21, 02 at 18:07 A few more, strutting their stuff as October draws to a close: Agastache rupestris 'Apache Sunset' - fine billowing blue-green foliage scented of anise or liquorice (individual nose interpretations vary) and tubular orange-red to apricot flowers. I didn't think much of this plant when it started blooming in early summer in its first season from seed, but it's gotten more floriferous and dense since then. Very nice. I had forgotten ever planting it, but a renegade deep purple Aconitum has come into flower. And Helianthus 'First Light' has been impressive in its initial season, the yellow flowers especially effective glowing in the light of late afternoon and early evening. And it doesn't do too badly in early morning either. * Posted by: david_5311 Z 5b/6a SE Mich on Mon, Oct 21, 02 at 19:10 And, perhaps last but not least.......no one has mentioned (where are you Beverly/Storybook Gardener??)....(drum roll).....Ligularia tusselaginea aureomaculata (don't ya' just love that name!!!!!). I learned of this plant on this forum last winter, bought one from Plant Delights. Well my plant has thrived, except for a few slug holes, and when I got back home a week ago it was just covered with flower stalks. The flowers aren't quite open, though I can see the yellow inflorescences just beginning to show. It has been unusually cold here the past few weeks, but I am still hoping that this will fully open. If so, it is clearly going to be a November bloomer. I am hopeful, and Beverly and others reported success in overwintering this in Michigan and Ohio, despite the zone 7 rating. I will post a picture when (if) it fully opens out. * Posted by: Tomato_Girl z5St.Louis on Tue, Oct 22, 02 at 15:13 How can I get some Calliope Astor? I saw a really tall blue aster at the Missouri Botanical Garden and it was next to the FABULOUS goldenrod 'Fireworks'. What a pair! * Posted by: david_5311 Z 5b/6a SE Mich on Tue, Oct 22, 02 at 17:34 A tall aster which is easy to find (relatively) is A. tataricus. It gets 5-6'. Tolerates part shade too. Somewhat invasive, not for a 'polite' border. I got my aster 'Calliope' from Heronswood years ago, not sure they still offer it. Well worth seeking out. Other tall asters to look for are 'Treasurer' and 'Climax'. Do a search, I'm not sure of sources. Canyon Creek Nursery in California used to be a good source for some of these asters but I do not think they offer them any more. * Posted by: Eric_OH 6a on Tue, Oct 22, 02 at 20:46 I recently saw the ligularia David mentioned in a wooded section of a display garden in North Carolina. Very nice under oaks. The flowers are OK, but strictly secondary to the foliage. This plant and plain ol' L. tussilaginea are acceptable hosta substitutes in places too far south for hostas to flourish. * Posted by: judyefd 6ma/4vt on Wed, Oct 23, 02 at 10:49 I want to put in a pitch for Mongolian Aster - Asteromoea mongolica. It has adorable white buttons (that start out with a lavender hue) with yellow centers. They've been non-stop blooming for me since mid-July - and I pinched them back twice to keep the height to a little over 2 feet. Still looking good - even with this morning's snow! * Posted by: gardenbug Canada zone 5 on Wed, Oct 23, 02 at 11:21 My aster, The Prince, is a beautiful thing today in the garden with its darkest of leaves and multitudes of tiny white pink-centered blooms. I caution those who think that goldenrods are common. The many hybrids are very deserving of investigation. The "solidaster" is also a beauty- a compact hybrid cross between Aster and Solidago. * Posted by: Lisa_H 7 OK on Wed, Oct 23, 02 at 13:31 I didn't see anyone mention it, but I really enjoy my perennial ageratum Eupatorium coelestinum this time of year. It is a beautiful misty blue color and really adds some color to fall bouquets. However, put this in a place you don't mind it roaming, it is rather invasive. I have it in a partially sunny location (more sun than shade). * Posted by: Eric_OH 6a on Wed, Oct 23, 02 at 16:50 Eupatorium coelestinum generally runs about a foot and a half tall max, sometimes a bit more. It does spread, but is shallow rooted and easy to yank if it strays where you don't want it. * Posted by: sbeuerlein on Wed, Oct 23, 02 at 21:25 I have an Agastache called "Apricot Sunrise," which I've enjoyed this year. Still in bloom. Started in July or August. Solidago rugosum "Fireworks" somebody mentioned has become one of my favorite perennials. Something to look forward to each year. Spectacular. * Posted by: Andy_Japan z9 on Thu, Oct 24, 02 at 3:56 I just found this one: Ainsliaea cordifolia. Blooms in October. It's a compositae, and hardy to zone 4! Terra Nova is the only place it's available. But they're only wholesale. Maybe if you contacted them they could tell you what nurseries/garden centers they sold them to--or maybe it's just for the coming 2003 season. And maybe if you bought enough (GB, you have plenty of space!) you could get them wholesale. * Posted by: Bonitoad 7b B.C. on Sat, Oct 26, 02 at 5:03 You all had me very concerned about what was blooming in your gardens... until I looked at the dates you posted on.....wheeee. We've only had cool weather for a few days now and plants , such as hostas, have just turned yellow. I'm enjoying all my fall blooming tricyrtis, pulsatillas are at it again, and the stately ( 7-8' ) Leycesteria formosa is at it's best right now... What an interesting thread this is... I've been busy writing down names on my wish list.... thanks every-one.. * Posted by: Bouquet z8 Dallas on Tue, Oct 29, 02 at 16:41 When I first planted the perennial Blue Mist Flower, I was disappointed with the weird lavender color that seemed to clash with its own green leaves. This year I have a Paul Neyron rose surrounded by Victoria Salvias with Blue Mist flower along one side mixed in with the salvias and a pale yellow lantana called Lemon Drops in between. The purple of the salvia seems to tone down the lavender and help it blend better with the other colors. I know you're not supposed to plant things so close to roses but I really like the way this looks. For me, it makes a nice filler and is shallow rooted and easy to thin out where you don't need it. I have it in full sun. I tried a Caryopteris once but it didn't make it. Our summers are brutal. I'm still a novice and tend to fall for plants the nurseries sell ? a lot that are inappropriate for this area. * Posted by: Eric_OH 6a on Wed, Oct 30, 02 at 9:56 In addition to E. coelestinum, there's another member of the genus that would be useful in your area. E. greggii is native to Texas and parts of the Southwest, blooming in spring and fall and attracting butterflies. It grows to about 18 inches and is rated hardy to zone 7. I also grew a shrubby Mexican Eupatorium (E. viburnioides) in the Houston area (it's been offered by Yucca Do nursery). This one is somewhat succulent and has white flowers which appear very late in the season (late November when I grew it). * Posted by: Bouquet z8 Dallas on Wed, Oct 30, 02 at 12:07 Thanks for the additional suggestions re eupatoriums -- Do you know if that Euphorbia polychroma 'Midas' in David's garden would grow in my area? I'm always looking for fall color in foliage (red, orange, burgundy)-- like Nandina, but not Nandina. I know something like that would really set off what I have blooming right now for next year: Salvia gregii in all colors (red, fushia, apricot, orange, pale yellow and white), Mexican Mint Marigold, Salvia Leucantha, Radiation lantana, yellow butterfly bush, Russian Sage, and Mutabilis. (The plants we can grow here sound so unsophisticated compared to your plants further north...) but I can't complain about the beautiful color right now. I'm not ready to commit to the permanence of shrubs in this garden since I'm still experimenting with the position of the plants. I did find that an earlier comment about planting 2 fall blooming things for every one planted before June has really helped me in my selection of plants lately. Thank you to whoever that was! * Posted by: david_5311 Z 5b/6a SE Mich on Wed, Oct 30, 02 at 13:20 Hi Bouquet, that comment was one that I read years ago and often quoted (here and elsewhere) from Christopher Lloyd, the great British gardener, and I have found it useful for years in planning long-season herbaceous plantings. I suspect that you can grow Euphorbia polychroma, but I can't guarantee that it would turn color for you. Some gardeners in mild climates suggested that it did not turn color without significant cold. But of course, there is an easy way to find out (try it and see, then let us know...) I have to laugh about your comment about not wanting to use shrubs because you are still playing 'musical plants' and making changes. I can tell you that doesn't stop me! I spent the weekend moving shrubs around, doing exactly what we do with perennials. It really isn't a problem as long as you don't wait too long, (try it and see...). And I would much rather move a 2 year old viburnum than a 10 year old Miscanthus sinensis 'Silberfeder' any day! :o) * Posted by: Eric_OH 6a on Wed, Oct 30, 02 at 14:20 There are good fall accent plants for the Dallas area that would be marginally hardy further north. A few that come to mind are grasses in the genus Muhlenbergia (M. lindheimeri is a gorgeous blue-green grass with excellent flowers (there was a fine specimen at the Antique Rose Emporium the last time I was there) and M. capillaris lights up meadows with its hazy pink plumes in fall. Pennisetum setaceum rubrum will last deep into fall for you. You mentioned Mexican mint marigold, and another Tagetes (T. lemmonii) is a shower of late-season gold with a plus of citrusy foliage. Firebush (Hamelia patens) is probably not going to be reliably hardy for you, but grown as an annual will thrive on the hot summers and give you red-tinted foliage as the weather cools. * Posted by: Bouquet z8 Dallas on Wed, Oct 30, 02 at 14:45 I have a T. lemmonii planted last spring as a 4" pot. It is now 2'x5' and planted in the wrong place since I was unaware it would get so huge. It has not bloomed yet and we have a cold front coming this weekend -- hope I don't lose the blooms. The firebush I have considered before. Maybe I'll try it next year to accent one of the tagetes. Thanks for the excellent suggestions.