The plastic is held down at the top 2 by 4. On the outside of the structure, I have the plastic sandwiched between the 2 by 4 and a 1 by 2 furring strip. The 1 by 2 is screwed to the 2 by 4 every 12 inches. Next year I am going to go every 6 inches. During the fiercest storms we had, the plastic did pull up and ripped. It wasn't bad. I just unscrewed the 1 by 2 and pulled it back tight. When I take the plastic off this winter, I am going to take it to my school or church and unfold it and tape any holes. That way it will be ready for next spring. I got the plastic, Klerk's K-50 from Stuppy's Greenhouse and Supply in Kansas City. We have to go to KC every 6 months for our daughters check up with the doctor there. I was excited to find them and they are only 1.5 miles away from the hospital we visit. With the plastic, shop around and pick it up if you can. The roll I get weighs 92 pounds. I am guessing it would cost alot to ship. Also, the price was cheaper if I picked it up and paid cash. I did get pictures taken this week of some of the features I am talking about. I will share them later. My wife downloaded them on another computer and shut it off. Thanks for the complements! Jay

joed: I re-read my post, and it is ambiguous about the two meters. I am sorry I am late in posting a reply, but I had a real problem logging in as a user today. We have 400 amp service, but it is broken down to two 200 amp circuit breaker boxes each with their own meter. KCP&L then on their bill has "heat energy charge" and "energy" charge since they can read both meters with the total being of course the sum of the two. The meters on the outside of the house are close together on a large box with one post coming up from the ground to the box, and I guess all splitting between the two circuit breaker boxes goes on in the large box. That is all I know. So KCP&L wants to put their surge protector on the meter that reads the "energy" part. The other meter has the HVAC, water heaters, and ejector pump. The question was does the surge protector on the one meter protect everything in the house. KCP&L as of this moment has given me no written statement that it does. Maybe this is a trivial issue to a sophisticated electrician or an electrical engineer, but it is not to me as the average homeowner.

brickeyee wrote: "Ufer grounds can easily be created during the construction of reenforced concrete buildings by ensuring bonding of the reinforcement bars electrically (often by welding them together). When they are buried in concrete you create a very effective earth ground." Under the US National Electrical Code a "concrete encased electrode" is usually required for new construction. The required minimum length is 20 ft and can be 1/2" rebar tie-wired together where necessary. I agree they are good. Ground rods are lousy. brickeyee wrote: "The 'surge suppressor' devices (MOVs being a very common type for this) allow for a connection between wiring and ground/neutral when the voltage exceeds their break-over rating. This has the effect of clamping the voltage on the line to approximately the break over voltage of the device. If the surge current is not very large or very brief the power dissipated in the device (current times break-over voltage times time conducting) will not cause destruction of the device" Maximum service surge current is 10,000A per service wire. Service panel protectors with much higher ratings are readily available. The author of the NIST surge guide looked at the amount of energy that might actually be absorbed in a plug-in protector. Branch circuits were 10m and longer. Power line surges were up to 10,000A (as above). The maximum was a surprisingly small 35 joules (based on US wiring). Plug-in protectors with far higher ratings are readily available. brickeyee wrote: "For MOVs it does cause some localized damage that decreases the ability of the device to carry current the next time it breaks over into conduction." As MOVs absorb surge energy they eventually start to conduct at lower voltages. Eventually they conduct at normal voltages, and go into thermal runaway. (Since 1998 UL has required listed protectors have thermal disconnects to disconnect overheating MOVs.) Far as I know MOVs continue to conduct surge currents up to failure. (Protection is not by absorbing the surge, but some energy is absorbed in the process of protection.) brickeyee wrote: "In the most common description the device is said to 'suppress' or 'shunt' the surge to ground. A poor connection to the source of the surge can result in limited effectiveness, and that includes the path back to earth ground for surges referenced to earth ground. The impedance of the ground path ads to the voltage the clamping device needs to turn on, decreasing its effectiveness at liming the voltage rise." For a power service protector the MOVs are connected line-to-line and line-to-neutral. In US services the neutral is bonded to ground and the earthing electrodes at the service. Unless the wires connecting the MOVs are too long they will function as intended, limiting the voltage between hots and neutral. If the earthing path is higher impedance it means that the power wiring will rise to a higher voltage above 'absolute' earth potential. With significant surge earth current it will rise in any case. Much of the protection is that all wires - power, phone, cable, ... - rise together as explained in another post. The same happens at plug-in protectors. All wires to a set of protected equipment has to go through the protector. The protector limits the voltage on all wires to the ground at the protector. As explained in the IEEE surge guide (starting page 30) the voltage at the protector may rise well above the ground at the service but the voltages between wires to the protected equipment is safe. brickeyee wrote: "Luckily the insulation on the phone lines usually fails around 4,000 to 6,000 volts (line to line of each pair) providing at least an upper limit on what is transmitted for many distances." Interesting - I never saw a breakdown number before. In US services, when service panel busbars reach about 6,000V there is arc-over to the enclosure. After the arc has stabilized the voltage is hundreds of volts. (Since the enclosure is connected to the earthing electrodes that dumps most of the surge energy to earth.) Similarly, 15 and 20A US receptacles will arc-over at about 6,000V. I generally agree with brickeyee. ========================== westom wrote "A 33kv wire fell on local distribution. Electric meters literally exploded up to 30 feet from their pans. My friend properly earthed one 'whole house' protector. Had no damage except to his electric meter." MOVs can conduct thousands of amps for the maybe 100 microseconds of a lightning surge. They will be rapidly destroyed by crossed power lines. No protector will say it can protect from crossed power lines. (UPSs and a few plug-in protectors disconnect on over-voltage and may provide protection.) westom wrote "Surges (ie lightning) may be 20,000 amps." The maximum surge current that has any reasonable probability of occurring is 10,000A per service wire - worst case. There is a reference to it in the IEEE surge guide. westom wrote "A protector is only as effective as its earth ground" Next worst surges to lightning are normal and abnormal utility operations including fault clearing and switching power factor correction capacitors. Many of them are line to neutral, not earth. I agree with brickeyee. Airplanes are regularly hit by lightning and have no earth connection. Understanding the protection is not that difficult.

CKGM wrote: "So just want to clarify? Did I waste $300 by installing a full house surge protector?" westom replied: "It is the only solution that will protect from all types of surges. If a connection from that protector to earth is short and low impedance, then the protector should make irrelevant surges even from stray cars and transformers." For real science read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. The sources are absolutely reliable. Both brickeyee and I have said damage from the car incident was from a high voltage distribution wire coming down on the wires to your house. What does the IEEE surge guide say? from page 15: "Temporary Overvoltage (TOV) Temporary and long-term overvoltage conditions (TOV) can lead to rapid degradation and even failure of SPD [surge protector] components. If the applied voltage exceeds the maximum continuous operating voltage rating ... of the SPD, the SPD will attempt to suppress the overvoltage and will begin to conduct current. The result can be thermal runaway of the SPD components, creating significant heating and eventual destruction of the SPD. TOVs are typically the result of loose or open neutral conductors, voltage regulator problems, or the INADVERTENT CONTACT OF HIGHER VOLTAGE SYSTEMS to the residential system." From page 11 "2) Catastrophic overvoltages Rare "catastrophic" overvoltages can result from accidental contact between high-voltage lines and low-voltage AC distribution lines, due to icing, TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS, falling trees, etc. In such situations, voltages up to thousands of volts can be brought into houses. AC building entrance protectors described Section 2 may provide some protection against these events. Again, the combination of entrance protectors with the point-of-use (plug-in) surge protectors described in Section 5.1 can offer better protection to the equipment plugged in than either one alone. 3) Sustained AC overvoltages Sustained overvoltages (typically, over 135 V on 120 V service) can result from malfunction of utility regulators or damaged distribution transformers. AC BUILDING ENTRANCE PROTECTORS DO NOT PROVIDE USEFUL PROTECTION AGAINST THESE EVENTS. Electronically controlled point-of-use (plug-in) surge protectors described in Section 5.1 disconnect for AC voltages outside a specified range, and offer useful protection to equipment plugged into them." [emphasis added] Westom says a service panel protector will provide protection from the car hitting the pole. That is not consistent with what the IEEE surge guide says - quoted above. I said that MOVs (voltage protection elements) will be rapidly burned out. Also that some plug-in devices may disconnect and provide protection. That is consistent with what the IEEE surge guide says. "TOV" is not a "surge". westom wrote: "Your 'whole house' protector is the only solution always found in facilities that can never have damage." Repeating from a reliable source - the NIST guide: "Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house? A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless." westom wrote: "You did not cause a feud. bud is paid to be nasty, create confusion, and discourage you. A sales promoter paid to protects sales of excessively profitable and ineffective devices." It is a favorite westom lie. I have nothing to do with the surge protection industry. If westom had valid technical arguments he wouldn't have to lie. westom wrote: "If his protector did protection, then he could post manufacturer spec numbers. He cannot post what does not exist. " Another favorite westom lie. In fact I did post specs for one of the protectors I am using. westom wrote: "Ignore his nastiness. Lying is routine when promoting obscenely profitable and ineffective products." My "lies" and "nastiness" come from the IEEE and NIST. Who is right? Westom says that plug-in protectors do NOT work. Then he will answer simple questions: - Why do the only 2 actual examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in suppressors? - Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest solution"? - Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor? - Why do westom's "responsible manufacturers" make plug-in suppressors? - Why does "responsible" manufacturer SquareD says "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use"? - Where is a manufacturer that says their service panel protector will protect from crossed power wires? If westom can not answer simple questions his arguments are nonsense. westom wrote: "In one venue, a 33,000 volt wire fell on local distribution. Electric meters were blown in pieces 30 feet from their pans. Many, using power strip protectors, had multiple damage. But one homeowner knew someone who knows this stuff. He only had a 'whole house' protector similar to yours. His only damage was to the electric company's meter. Even his protector remained undamaged." Provide a source that says what happened. Westom is not a reliable source as can be seen from the misinformation he has posted. One of the first places I saw westom was an electrical engineering forum where westom mischaracterized the views of researcher Arshad Mansoor and provoked a response: "I found it particularly funny that he mentioned a paper by Dr. Mansoor. I can assure you that he supports the use of [multiport] plug-in protectors. Heck, he just sits down the hall from me. LOL." Did you waste $300? If you expect to protect from another 'car incident' you did. But those events are real unlikely. It will provide protection from normal and abnormal utility switching, which are the next most damaging surges after lighting.