What are we voting on?

Oh, dear!! Someone should have told that lady she was supposed to design her kitchen before demolition!! There was a lot of construction on mine, as there are on many, but that led to a few inches to add/subtract, and a few "fixes" when one thing pushed another awry. It didn't change the overall design any! It really is possible to make plans and stick to them.

Which leads me, Aliris, to the sorry confession for why I haven't commented on your plans. I'm sorry. There's something about the drawing and the grid that just make it really hard for me to look at. It gives me a headache. I'm wondering if that's been the problem for the gurus as well? Maybe you could trace a copy without so many extra lines in it or something?

It's also a very busy time of year. I should be doing laundry and wrapping presents, but am here because I have a headache and don't want to talk (aloud) to people. :) The gurus may also be off doing doings.

I think all the members really do want to help you! You did the right thing by asking here. It'll help if you can post a latest version that's as clear and easy to read as possible in this thread. Thanks!

Hope it goes better...

Are you asking us to sign off on something here?

Hi guys -- sorry! Let me post again. I'll work on lightening the lines -- it should be easy. I think it's on a locked layer (I'm using Pages) that I ought to be able to get at and will post later. As a stop-gap I'll repost the thing itself, with mega-apologies for the still-extant grid...

Is this any clearer by any chance??

I don't think so ... I'm really sorry; it seems I can't get rid of those lines so easily. I'm not sure where they're "located"....

I'm not sure how much clearer it is, but it doesn't make me queasy from looking at those lines, and I can try to read it without making my (unrelated) headache worse. Well, heck, I can even read the captions on this one!! Good job.

BTW, the lines are probably located in View (view grid), Layout (grids and rulers), or Tools. I don't know your program, but that's where it is in the ones I use.

First comment: Just about every corner susan or other corner cupboard solutions I've seen requires a 36"x36" cabinet. It looks like you have 30" square. If your cabinet line does that, fine. Otherwise, it might be a problem. Also, you've drawn your stools too close together for reality. The three will fit, but they need more elbow room. A bigger problem is that corner behind--Unless that was supposed to be a text box, and not a wall/cabinet.

I don't understand the pantry details. Is that lower drawers plus one lower cabinet with open shelves above? First, I should say, I love those wide, step in pantries. They're so pretty! In general, however, corners in pantries are pretty uncomfortable for storage. In general most of us prefer L's to U's. I hated my old, U walk-in pantry because of that. It seemed like it was all corner, no shelf. I'd recommend instead of 18" and 12" depths, you have 12" and 6"...but...how do the lowers work in the U? I don't think they really do? Or are you going to duck under the U shaped shelves to get at them? Why does the soup pot need a cupboard? Of all the things that can happily live on a shelf, that's one. If it's not decorative enough, it would cost less to buy a new Le Creuset enamel on steel soup pot to be pretty than build a cupboard for it. As to the drawers, perhaps to maximize the pantry and give you the storage you need, custom bins or baskets on your shelves would give you the best of both? You could pull them all the way out, angle them, or whatever, to make use of the corners?

What is that to the left of the pantry with the words over it. I get the baking counter from the pantry to the fridge, but what's below (of page) to it? 31" is a little tight for all baking. It would be a good place for your mixer, however, and you have the island for a worktop. It's not that there isn't enough room for rolling or shaping, but where are you going to put your pans? Lifting dough is hard enough without having to juggle pans or twist or whatever.

You can put the DW drawers where you show, but it's not the most convenient. I'd rather have them between the sink and range, and put some of the pots in the island, as well as the trash. I don't understand the place on the island where it says trash. Primary trash is most convenient by a sink, whether prep or clean-up.

Re your shallow drawers, devoting that much prime real estate to rubber bands is wasteful. You can put small receptacles in a utensil drawer that mostly has your prep tools in it. They make little ceramic jars or plastic boxes with wide holes in the top that are meant to hold cotton balls. Get one for rubber bands and one for twist ties and you don't need a whole drawer. Plastic veggie boxes are best stacked by like sizes in a deeper drawer than crammed into a shallow drawer. But check the plastic number. If they're not a grade that's good for wash and reuse, it's better to store them outside of the kitchen for general household use.

I don't understand the notes about the island other than glass fronts (beware dog noses on those).

You might find the island more comfortable, and if you're topping it with granite, have a less likely crack point) if you ease the corner where the projection meets the cabinets. More baby grand piano S curve than 90 degree angle.

As to the basic layout, L with island is almost always functional. The fridge is a little removed from the stove, but it should be fine. I see where you've rounded that corner by the prep sink. It might be fun to round the whole island to an interesting shape. I don't know if you're getting custom cabinets. The way they usually do rounded doors/drawers is with MDF and veneer. The MDF can even be made into S curves. I think a truly piano shaped island could be exceptionally cool.

It's not 100% signed off here, but it's a good working plan.

Wow; piano shaped island... I had to settle for an upright but maybe we could just make the island do instead?! Very amusing. I will play with that.

And thanks, plllog, for the kind words. I'm pretty fragile about all of this!

My program is not really a program intended for this so I've pasted a grid from elsewhere and it's not readily available to tone down.

Lazy susan. I was just guessing. I'll correct that; easy. Thanks for the info. I hadn't gotten around to getting any real numbers....

Pantry details ... are sketchy to say the least. I am not sure what to do there. My starting point is a couple dozen of those square glass airtight containers closed by metal twisty-thingy. I put pulses and grains and nuts, etc -- dry goods in them. I think they're pretty and fit together nicely on a shelf and I grab at them all the time -- I thought perhaps it could be designed for them to be on an open shelf and grab-able. I also use old glass juice containers for this. I dunno my total count but it must be at least 30 ranging in height from 5" - 14". Unfortunately that's just a guess. I could unearth and measure them I suppose, and perhaps I ought to. sigh. I wasn't even around when our kitchen got packed up and it was over a year ago so I have a very dicey memory of what I own, how I use it, etc... There certainly is no inventory, which I really regret.

I was trying, therefore, to remember what I have and remembered the tall canning/soup pot. It's one of those graniteware pots, not the wide ones but is taller than wide. I'm guessing it's the 21 qt stockpot with these dimensions: 14" H x 11.5" W x 10.5" D . I was thinking this was something that probably wouldn't want to go in a drawer as it's so tall and that it just might be something a cabinet would be needed for? And therefore I was thinking maybe I should stick a cabinet in the base of my "pantry" and have that have a shelf and then ring it with open shelves above. Dunno ... I would sure love an opinion on the wisdom of any of this.

It is certainly amusing your point about buying a le creuset pot so it can be on display! And ironic -- all my pans are le creuset and I've never had a place to put them; they're so heavy. I just leave them on the stove. I was wanting to stash something away! You should see how cluttered my life gets: I cover any and all available surfaces, always.

But this is a huge pot and I do use it for making soup quite often. It fits two chickens very nicely. And granola - great for mixing that up. Something that large is probably actually better not to also be super-heavy in materials. Imagine its dry weight. ooof. This is actually an item I would like to be sure to have inside-storage place for. It's not pretty, it is useful, and it is frequently used (~3x/mo). I also stash a gazillion cookie cutters inside but they are a pia to take in and out!

As for the square shelving problem, I am guessing the square glass jars I have (like this: http://www.kitchenkrafts.com/product.asp?pn=PG3219&utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_source=pricegrabber&sid=PriceGrabber&tid=CSE) might work well in the corners. This is earthquake country so I'd have to have a dowel or something mid-height to reign them in.

Left of the pantry. Sorry about that -- it's just a broom closet or maybe coats -- brooms most likely. I sort of had been ignoring it. Probably I'll just keep the bottom clear and put a cabinet door on the front. Then later on make some shelves overhead above where the brooms go. Originally we had thought of it as a coat closet, but I think it's not really big enough and there is a need for brooms so....

Mysterious trash. Actually, I really want that to be a dedicated recycling bin; I want to bring the boatloads of paper-trash from the mailbox straight to the counter and from there down under. I agree that trash in the prep area is a good idea though I can get away with that being miniscule. Between recycling and composting everything I have very little trash.

I was convinced by others to put the DW to the left of the sink for spacing reasons, but that was from an earlier incarnation of the plan. I thought about putting it back but then thought it might actually be convenient underneath that counter still because that's where dish and utensil storage would be so that might minimize putting-away steps. So I guess it's a tradeoff between loading-ease and replacing-ease. And then the a drips problem was mentioned and I was swayed toward this location.

The way I use the dishwasher is a little crazy I know. I never use a heated dry so everything is always wet; therefore it often sits on a counter for a while before getting put away. Having the DW closer to this larger counter might also be helpful; dunno.

Rubber band drawer. Yeah, I agree -- I don't think I really meant to have a drawer devoted to rubber bands. But I was trying to remind myself to have a shallow upper drawer row for utensils and the like -- that junk drawer buehl suggests to plan for. If memory serves me, I spend more time going in and out of the stupid rubber band drawer than any other in the kitchen anyway. I like the idea of those office boxes to house the things. In the use-it-up mode I often leave them in old yogurt containers or the like, which don't really work. Truth is, I just *file* these things and hardly ever even reuse them anyway! Honestly .... it's a behavior-renovation I need not a house one. Nevertheless, in thinking about how I cook, it involves removing rubber bands and twist-ties from several bunches of greens daily. These things need containing and I sure don't want them on a countertop! For that matter, I'm not sure I want them in a drawer with utensils either. Maybe I should put a slit in the countertop straight above the trash for them ;)

Notes on island. I was thinking I could fit an upper cabinet on that wall, and it might look pretty as glass. And perhaps its ends could be open shelving for books facing outward off the edge of the island, into the fridge-island walkway on the one side and over the recycling (mislabelled as trash) bin on the other. I thought that might be a convenient place for cookbooks. And as the cabinet would be hard to access anyway, it could be mostly decorative and rarely accessed in the middle.

Piano-shaped island: so where's the keyboard, on the fridge-aisle? Or on the wall? I guess you must mean the wall, but then the lump goes the wrong way ... it's gotta be the fridge-aisle -- but the wall can't be smoothed I don't think -- I guess it could if it came out from the wall edge.... but that would make the prep-sink corner sharp. Which is OK .... I really like the idea and will play with it and report back! I think eyeballing the proportions we're talking baby grand here not concert grand! Maybe I could make the counter raise up... . It would be cook if the seating area were at the "keyboard", but that wouldn't really work functionally so well. Or if you wanted to sacrifice function to form, you could lower the fridge-aisle/keyboard edge to 31" I'd have to be a better pianist (or a bigger bread-baker) to justify that departure from function over form!

Hi.

Here's a new sketch. I've moved the DW back to the other side of the sink. One reason this works better now is because I'm thinking of using a prep sink in which case it's really fine - a good idea probably - to cut down on the size of the main sink. There's so much space in the bay window area I think I could fit just about anything in there, but counter space is also a premium, so with the additional sink it probably makes sense to cut back on this sink, leaving room for the DW.

I've tried to sketch in a piano-shape. I am guessing this will cost a fortune, though, so I'm not sure the intellectual pleasure is worth it...

I think the U-shaped shelves are at 12" now in the upper pantry -- I think that seems OK?

My biggest question is whether the 31" kneading counter underneath an Advantium is in any way sensible or functional. Any thoughts on that? The note that is on top of the broom closet was meant to apply to the space to the left of the fridge abutting the wall. It's a small space (30") and I'm wondering about leaving a low counter there for kneading and sticking the Advantium above that. Not sure whether this would render both functions useless -- the kneading surface because there was something jutting into it at head-height, and the raised advantium that might make peering into the MW difficult. But maybe it would work? I can't tell!

Thanks, plllog and any-all else.

I like the dishwasher, between the sink and stove. I also think your island shape is much better...friendlier, somehow.

As for the prep sink, I'd be tempted to move it down a bit, out of the corner a foot or so, closer to the cooktop. Not opposite, but just down a bit, to give you a little more space.

Everything looks really nice! :)

I can do that. :) And I agree; you're right - the range-side of the island should extend the length of it, else stuff on the dishwasher drain will feel it will fall off and/or there needs to be a "landing pad" as you all so quaintly put it, on the end of that sink. I won't repost the draw though....

Hi! I totally understand about the grid. It's really okay since you fixed it, and, of course, it's useful for looking at it.

Re the sink, I went through that too. I had a 4' sink that I loved in my old kitchen. I really wanted a 5' farm sink with integrated drainboards. None fit in the new kitchen. Part of the reason I put in a prep sink is because I knew I wouldn't be happy without a second basin, but didn't want a 30" double bowl sink. A 30" clean-up sink and a smaller prep sink work just fine. I didn't need the basins to be next to each other. :) The one issue with a prep sink is that the drain often takes up a lot of cabinet space. There's a small amount of dead space in the back of my island that they put the drain through, so there's plenty of room under my prep sink for the fire extinguisher. :)

A caution: It looks like the clean-up sink is offset in your drawing. Having it totally not centered isn't a problem, but having it off by a couple of inches can make it look like a booboo.

Re the corner with the mysterious writing: So...that's a broom closet next to the pantry on the left? If so, how will it open if you put a counter in front of it? Are you going to pull your brooms in and out over the counter? Or am I totally misunderstanding.

The island forms a barrier and it's too long a walk to the fridge if you swap it with the ... OH!! Maybe I get it now? There's a doorway where the writing is that the broom closet door opens into? And the writing refers to swapping the Advantium with the fridge to put it by the passthrough? I thought both the writing and the explanation referred to the doorway area as a counter. Silly me!

No... You mean the Advantium where shown but with a kneading counter underneath instead of a full height pantry cabinet? I think that's what you meant! That wouldn't be good. It's too closed in side to side for any upper overhead, and if you're really hand kneading there, you need to get your shoulders over the counter.

It would be very bad for the work flow, but better for the harmony of that section of wall, to swap the fridge and Advantium. Without doing that, I'd suggest doing the Advantium in a floor to ceiling cabinet that's flush with the front edge of the fridge, so the fridge doesn't stick out. That would be prettier. Also, if that really is a doorway where the words are, and that really is a few inches of up and down wall past where the wall beside the Advantium is, can you slide the Advantium down more? Or is that just the door casing? Just thinking the passthrough would be nicer if there were a few inches margin there too. Or maybe that part was just a drawing box, and you intended to put a casing molding there anyway.

Re the piano shaped island, I think it looks cool, and more comfortable to sit at too. If the cabinets are standard and only the top is curved, it shouldn't cost any more to have fabricated. The very center might be hard to clean, however. Anything that's more than an arm's stretch is. You can use a wand (or mop) to get at the very center if you can't reach. If the person who does most of the cleaning is short, however, it's something to consider carefully because as drawn this is just on the edge of doable.

A cabinet might be better than drawers right where the curve pulls away from the front line so that there's no problem accessing the top. That depends on the overall dimensions.

Oh! Is that a wall on the bottom of page side of the island? Like a wall that goes all the way up? Are it, and the wall by the Advantium already there?

Back to the kneading thing. I think you were in on the thread recently where I mentioned my dough rolling clogs? I'm not advocating 6" heels unless you're into stripper shoes for baking in. :) This is where we get creative... --Unless! Is the open area where the DW drawers are hanging out waiting to be asked to play a breakfast area? Will there be a "kitchen" table there? Because if 31" is your ideal height, a baking board on a standard height (30"h) table would get you there.-- Otherwise, how about a pullout cart, custom made, for under the Advantium. It can have locking castors and a lift up back. My "table" folds down--according to my cabinetmaker the folding brackets will take a couple hundred pounds of pressure. There can be drawers or a cabinet inside for holding your baking tools. And it can do double duty as a serving cart.

Otherwise, the best place I see for a lowered counter is between the fridge and the window side counter. You can do a drawer on the lowered counter level, and have the super susans underneath. You'd give up a few inches of space in those lower cabinets, but you'd be gaining it in the Advantium area.

Question, if you're bumping out the cabinets/counter on both sides of the range, why not carry it all the way past the sink? Too hard to get to the window bay? I caught my housekeeper kneeling on the counter to reach to clean. She's short. (I never asked her to do that! I could have done it myself.) You'd lose a couple more inches of storage beneath the passthrough, but I don't think it would be too much.

The pantry should be fine with the 12" all around, or you can do 12" in the back and 8-10" on the sides. My biggest concern isn't the upper shelves, but accessing the lower ones with the uppers on the returns. Still advocating doing all open shelves. There's an inspiration picture floating around here with a similar pantry behind divided light doors (gridded glass) that's absolutely gorgeous. I don't remember perfectly, but my impression is that it's all shelves. I can't find it!! Oh, well. Doesn't matter. :)

Hey plllog -- thanks for all the thinking [I always think you must be a member of La Leche League with an email address like that].

I'm sorry that I've misled you with that errant writing. Let me attach a cleaner copy. I hope this will clarify what's happening in that written-over corner. I'm afraid I've led you astray with irrelevant thoughts.

In the corner is a small 2' x 2' broom closet. Nothing is currently planned for this beyond a cabinet door. I think I should add some upper drawers for utility storage of things like batteries, etc. I don't think that's a big deal to muse on later.

There are two fixed walls along the "hall" - one directly across from the broom closet; one directly across from the coat closet labeled "CLOSET". The longer wall across from the coat closet is load-bearing. It comprises one side of the island. The small wall across from the broom closet is probably expendable or expandable. But its length currently reflects the depth of the pantry, a design element that I notice is part of our architects signature. Not that we can't change it, but I think it is part of what makes things feel a little arty and classy.

So now on to the problematic Advantium tower. Yes, I had been contemplating a 31" counter there, underneath the Advantium which would be shoved as high as possible. I had been thinking the Advantium cabinet would be recessed more than it turns out it is. And I am now in agreement with you that this little pipe dream isn't gonna work. Even if you could get your shoulders into it underneath the wall oven, probably your elbows would feel terribly cramped. It's just not a good concept.

But there is good news in this corner. First, there had been an ill-placed overhead heating vent that made it impossible for the cabinets in this tower to go to the ceiling. This is going to be moved out into the fridge-island passageway. Yeah!

Next, I finally brought dh in on the plans and he's pretty amenable to all of it, including the mega-expensive range. There's a profligate one in every pair, and it's not me. Still, I had thought he might balk at the price but he didn't even flinch. It looks like I might get one of those highly auteur CC's. I'm pretty darned psyched. It might almost make all the pizza we've been eating lately (in sacrifice to this reno-thing) worthwhile. Almost.

OK, so the other part is re the Advantium -- I was doing all this pretzeling to accommodate the 240V speed oven above-counter. But it seems it's significantly worth it to dh (to the tune of $1K) to stuff the speed oven below counter. I've been resisting the Miele route manfully, but have given up the ghost. I'll find a space for it in the island.

This removes the necessity of the wall oven stack in the corner. And meanwhile the refridge stack can go up to the ceiling. DH is quite wedded to retaining the length of the passthrough and is pretty insistent on maintaining its symmetry. All that symmetry feels a little arch to me (no pun intended). But I'm willing to re-address that requirement. I'm that grateful for a professional-style range. Yippeeee!!!

OK, so ... cleanup sink. I think that's fixed. I have my eye on an e-granite integral-drainboard smallish sink: www.nextag.com/Elkay-ELGU2218MC-Harmony-E-674993904/prices-html I'm not sure this drainboard isn't a little confining and therefore not really all that helpful; dunno.

Main sink. I am not at all sure of whether one large sink would be better than two combined ones given that third prep sink. Like you, I think it may make sense to go with a single large bowl. I do have room for a large single bowl sink with integral drainboards, but I'm not convinced I like it so well attached to the main sink. I'll have enough counter space around and behind not to need the fussiness of being embedded in the artificial confines of the sink itself. I think.

BTW, yes, there is a doorway next to the broom closet. It leads to the LR and DR.

island. I agree it's huge but I think we can get away with it. I'm not giant, but I am 5'7"+ I can also jump pretty handily :) When I measure it, 3' is about the upper limit of stretching required to clean, and I can manage this.

Big thing is that yes, I will agree to increasing harmony all around by swapping the Advantium tower with the fridge; even possibly nixing it altogether.

Kneading clogs. Yes, I read about that a-ha moment of yours! And yes, I'm quite sure we'll have a lower table someplace very nearby -- I think I am OK with letting go of the lowered counter. They look kinda squirrely IMO usually anyway.

I'm pretty sure, FWIW, that bread kneaded by a 150lb woman will exert more than #200 on the surface beneath.

I'm not sure I understand the question about the upper cabinets flanking the range. How can they be extended "pas the sink"? There are intervening windows in the bay window as well as that bumped-out shape ... I must be missing something. Anyway, I'm going to rework the passthrough wall...

I would love to see that inspirational pantry if ever it turns up.

I'll rework and repost later this evening. Thanks again!!

Here is a link that might be useful: prep sink

Ah! Okay. I get it. The e-granite is the prep sink in the island, right? And you're still debating about the main = clean-up sink? That Elkay is an interesting sink. A lot of sinks nowadays have "reefs", most famously the Kohler Stages. I have a Kohler Bordelaise, which is keyhole shaped. The trough part is shallow and reeflike in use, if not in shape. It's really convenient! I put my colander in the round bowl at the end. Your pictured sink would be even better for that purpose with the deep bowl next to the reef. Very nice to have a wet area that isn't far below the counter for resting the veg one is cleaning.

Don't worry about the earlier misunderstanding. I've just learned that instead of deleting the response to what was misunderstood, it's better to include it, as if one were talking, because displaying the misapprehension actually furthers the meeting of the minds. As to the L's, they're tech related, but you have an interesting response. Most people ignore them, turn one into a vowel, or delete one. :)

All is clear now about the broom closet and hall walls. I think you're managing well with the given space.

Congratulations on the cooperative cohort! I've been looking at the CC for a friend of mine, and it really does look great. As to the speed oven, low is better than high for safety, and sometimes when the design makes one stand on one's head to make something work, sometimes the potential savings can be a false economy. But regarding the fridge location, I wouldn't push it much down page. That would put the corner of the island between it and the stove, and make the walk too far. BTW, this is not profligate!! If you're cooking more because cooking is that much easier because you have a good layout and great range, you're saving money. And there's no reason why this range shouldn't last you at least 20 years, unlike a lesser model that might only be good for 7. It means you miss out on the interest you could earn on the price difference while waiting for a bad range to die, but it's not that much!

I don't remember your family situation, but the Advantium space, where it is, looks like it's crying to be a snack center. It's right by the fridge and steps from the pantry. It'll have the microwave/speed oven (Miele below counter!), and can have glasses and Corelle, and a little basket with sandwich knives and spreaders up. Add a coffeemker, toaster, and maybe even a Cuisinart or juicer, and you have a very functional little area. You could even put retracting doors on it (like on a TV cabinet) so that you can close off the counter when it's not in use and have it all flush with the fridge.

OTOH, putting the fridge on the other side, toward the "hall" puts it on the outside of the work zone enough so that passing marauders can fill up and go without disturbing the cook. ... Or if the pillage is too bad, maybe you want a staked goat (the proposed snack center) was a temptation to keep them from noticing the dinner prep in the kitchen proper.

BTW, about the misplaced overhead heating vent... Have you checked which way the joists run? I couldn't move mine over, so I slid it down to the window and have it venting forward from a decorative register in the bridge cabinet over the window.

Oh, another economy? With the money you save in not installing a custom height baking counter, you can buy a mixer with a dough hook and still save a bunch of money! :D (That's a joke. I figure if you're talking hand kneading it's because you want to, not have to. I got a good mixer (though it was a gift) long before the new kitchen.)

Upper cabinets flanking range: You didn't understand because it was my turn to be unclear. I was talking about the lowers. Ranges are usually a few inches deeper than standard cabinets. It looks like you've drawn the lowers on both sides of the range bumped out to its depth. It might put the DW door uncomfortably close to the island, but you could bump out that whole counter. That's all I meant.

I'm a bit scattered. If I've missed a question, poke me, okay? I'll go see if someone can pull up that picture for you.

I think it's going to be a really lovely room, and interesting.

Hi plllog -- tech or otherwise, as an LLL, I'm very comfortable with llls.

Where to start: first, I haven't reworked the plan yet and won't tonight b/c I am simply bushed. Actually outing with the plan to dh was emotionally draining I guess. Failing to sleep for weeks on end isn't helping either. Don't know if anyone's mentioned this: renovating is kinda stressful. ;)

That bordelaise sink is quite wild. I don't quite get it as, truthfully, I don't get the terms "reef" with regards to a sink. I gather it means a shallow, wet-able section near the sink? That is, drainboard? Why "reef" This seems to me a complete misnomer!

Definitely I have much to learn there!

Dh's argument false-economy-wise is any of this money we're talking about hre is chump change compared with the spending on the overall project. Given that this is where the pleasure and utility comes in, it's a waste *not* to spend it. That's his argument. It would be mine as well were the tables turned, only since it's me doing the spending it's hard to make for myself.

I'll return to the appliances forum and brush up on the Miele. I hope it's going to be fine; I think so. One question is whether it has the same rack issues as the Advantium.

Is there any reason this range should ever die? It appears immortal...Under ordinary circumstances we don't eat out, though being without a kitchen we have resorted to it of late. It leaves one feeling icky and greasy and unnourished -- I hate it. We all miss my cooking! I'm not sure a fantastic range will garner more cooking days than before as we were fairly well maxed out there. I do think I will likely be less bored by cooking, a malady that's plagued me of late.

I see your point about shoving the fridge out of straight-shot distance with the range. But I will probably do it anyway. The fridge is big and bulky and much of the attempted aesthetic of the room/s is light and airy. Leaving the hulk in the middle of the row like that isn't going to enhance this game plan. Further dh wants to try to symmetricalize the pass-through and getting the fridge out of its way would be key. I'm not so anal about this but will try. But it means breaking up the straight shot to the range. I'm OK with this as I'm of the take-it-all-out-of-the-fridge-first tribe, so I don't do much zinging between range and fridge. Fridge and prep top for sure; range and prep top too, but fridge-range? Not so much...

This leaves placement of the Miele. People seem to like to set MWs near fridges, and ovens near ranges or at least baking centers. I'll probably have a hot drinks area at the end of the island on the wall. Not sure whether the sink can be made to be happy there.

Misplaced heating vent is blessed by the HVAC guy for its new location -- it was his idea, sort of. It occurred to me that if this oven is so hot it can't be below-counter, it might not be advisable to set it up right under the main HVAC vent. The HVAC guy had been a little sticky about moving the vent earlier, but when he heard its proposed fate, he hastened to find a way!

I'm pretty much of a baking-luddite by choice. No mixer, caved recently (= 10 years ago probably) and bought hand-held beaters.

"You could bump out that whole counter"... do you mean the counter could follow the line of the bay window back away from the straight line of the range?

Thanks, palll ;)

Q: Did HVAC guy make a pilot hole or in some other way determine exactly where the joists are? My vent move was blessed too, then, guess what? They went the other way! Just saying. Make 100% sure before fixing on a plan that depends on it.

About the counter, I meant that you could get rid of the jog that's right over where it says "45" passage". Draw the line straight across. It would eat a little of the storage by the passthrough though. And it's not necessary. Just a possible.

"Baking-ludddite." I love it! Though I'm the one with the sabots--I mean clogs. :) All that hand kneading is good for your upper body. A lot more fun and useful than going to the gym too. ;) I have the mixer and the food processor, but I'm just as likely to do small jobs by hand. I don't miss baking three loaves of bread at a time all by hand though! I do the whole mix and knead in the machine and it's just fine, exercise program be danged. :)

I totally get your reasons for moving the fridge. There are definite pluses. It would make me nuts, but you've given it good thought. You might want to do the build it from boxes thing and really make very sure, but my skepticism is mostly about how much I wouldn't like it. Every room has its tradeoffs, and getting the better balance, and the symmetry your husband wants, along with having it easily accessible to the ravening hordes, really does argue in favor of the plan.

Yes, the reef is the platform within a sink (or swimming pool) that's below waterline but not much. A true drainboard would be counter level (actually, overlapping the counter) and above the water line. Your pictured sink is undermount. That's not to say that you can't use the reef for draining sippicups. (The one in swimming pools is for lounge chairs and for babies to wade.) So yes, the shallow part is the reef, and the good place to set down your washed carrots for trimming.

For stress relief, you probably know all of this, but in case it helps: At least half an hour of good sweaty exercise. Lots of colorful veggies and fruits and lean proteins. Fats help stress chemically, so a little there is good too.

Re spending, well...there's only so many drop in the bucket things you can spend on before they take over the budget, but I agree that the cooking appliances are the number one thing to indulge in. Second would be lighting (quantity, not beauteousness). Keep your good sense, but spend what you need to to make the kitchen function if you've got it. I've been cooking all kinds of things in my new kitchen, that I haven't bothered with for years. Yep. It's the fun factor!

I know of no reason why the CC should ever die, but somewhere along the way it might need a thorough going over and service. Averaging that with the unknowns because it's new, I threw out a number for when I thought you might need to think about the stove.

Hi plllog and everyone else. Thanks for the explanation of a reef -- funny!

I've added a new final (so many finals....) on a different thread linked below. I'd love to hear your ideas. Sorry it's changed so dramatically. I thought I was close but then... the explanation's on the new thread.

Here is a link that might be useful: new final, again.