SHOP PRODUCTS
Houzz Logo Print
eugenie11

Contractor late fees - need advice!

eugenie11
12 years ago

Our small kitchen renovation began on October 17th. In an early conversation with the contractor, we asked how long the job would take and he told us two weeks. Somewhat skeptical, DH said, "Let's call it three," and added, when the contractor looked hurt that we would question his word, "I'm in production. I know how these things go."

Ah, those were the good old days, when we were still speaking civilly, before two weeks turned into two months. And counting. We're still only 95% finished. The only good news is that I stopped any further payments after the first installment, so we still owe almost half the total cost of the job.

My question is, what would be a fair amount to deduct for the outrageous delays on the job? I'm writing the final check, so I can deduct what I want, but I'd like to have an idea of what is considered reasonable under the circumstances. A quick online search showed everything from $100 a day to $1,000 a day. I do not have anything in writing, but the contractor knows we are furious. He can take the check or leave it. He can try to sue me - but what judge will take his side? Forget about the fact that we had no kitchen through Thanksgiving - we still won't be finished by Christmas!

Each of the numerous delays have come from his mismanagement, failure to measure, personal problems (buying a house, closing, waiting for the cable guy) or mistakes made by his subs. Would love to hear from other GWers on what my options might be at this point. Aren't my time and my frustration worth anything? Or does the contractor get paid no matter how lousy the job?

Thanks!

Comments (32)

  • live_wire_oak
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If late fees are not written into your contract, then you are not able to deduct anything and you could possibly end up with BIG legal problems if you did. And yes, the judge will take his side. The written word rules.

    Average time for a kitchen remodel is 8-12 weeks, so you are not too far out from what's considered normal.

  • Related Discussions

    Advice needed for recouping refund from bad contractor

    Q

    Comments (15)
    If your area has a home improvement commission, contact them and file a complaint. Then, contact the contractor that did the original work and tell him you have had one assessment that the leak is due to his poor work. Let him know you are filing a complaint with the home improvement commission (if you have one). Ask him to look at it before you do, and correct the problem. Then get 3 estimates on where the problem is and if they all agree that it was due to poor workmanship, then you have an argument. If you just have someone come in and redo everything, the original contractor can merely say the problem wasn't in an area he worked and, there's no proof since the roof has been redone. Also, if you give him an opportunity to fix "his bad", that would be the right thing to do since the problem might get resolved and everyone ends up happy. If he doesn't cooperate, then it's time to get tough. Depending on locality and the watchdogs that are there, you can get some action. I coached a family member through this procedure over a poorly installed driveway and they received their $10,000 back, the contractor was fined (that amount) and his license was suspended for a year. He was not to be issued a license under a different company name in that time in that county. As for the web based contractor referral, they receive an amount of money if they schedule a contractor.
    ...See More

    restocking fee for a mistake made by contractor??

    Q

    Comments (12)
    The GC took out the backsplash when he submitted the invoice. He spoke to me on the phone and I asked him if he could find someone else to do our backsplash, he said he would but then never followed through with that. He dropped off the invoice when he knew I wasn't home. And there were no penalties on our invoice. There have been no more tiles ordered, even though I wanted the backsplash at Kato she doesn't seem to want to order it. I've since been working with a tile shop and they've been very helpful. And, I never signed any contracts or was told about a design fee, in fact when I went to Kato for the tiles she had called me and asked me if she could meet me there. She also came to our house one time with granite selection and a few backsplash ideas__again, I didn't ask her or expect her to come to our house. She now thinks I should pay her$250 for these two times. LOL I am a fair person but I'm not a fool! I'm on a teacher's salary and I think it's ludicrous for someone to think they're worth $80 an hour when they botch the job and order the wrong tiles!
    ...See More

    Fixed-price contract has Contractor's Fee % as well?

    Q

    Comments (42)
    Vegiegardnr- Did you talk to you flooring person about thier hours? Not that it really should need to be any of your concern what it takes to run their business as long as you get the finished product that you are paying for (and of a reasonable quality), but there probably is a lot more to it than you seem to assume. You saw work from 10:30 -4:30 and decided that was lazy. There could have been other work that is necessary to their job that was happening during those "lazy off hours": Meeting other potential clients for quoting work, billing and paperwork for jobs done, billing and paperwork to pay supplier accounts, getting quotes or filling out forms for insurance and/or licensing, filling out forms for employees or past employees that need employment verifications for loans/apartment renting/new jobs, picking up materials for jobs or tool expendables, servicing of their truck or equipment that they use to do the work, researching and/or buying a new piece of equipment, going to a class about a new floor surfacing product, etc.. Based on how you present yourself here it seems you don't view contractors as human beings that "just might" be working hard to try to do good work. There are bad guys out there in all fields of work, but most contractors do not deserve the assumption that they are all just trying to find ways to overcharge and be lazy. Or maybe in your experience those are the only ones you've worked with - because as others have pointed out, contractors look at their potential clients in terms of risk of loss/stress/hassle/not getting paid/not getting sued, and the good self respecting contractors who have a good reputation and referral base don't need to take on risky/unpleasant work and probably steer clear of working with someone with those attitudes. Maybe next time - still protect yourself with reasonable due diligence, but treat the contractor as a human, ask (a reasonable amount) of polite and non judgemental questions if you don't understand where charges come from or why things cost what they do. Maybe then you'll have a better experience with your next contractor and start to shift your views away from assuming they're all bad.
    ...See More

    Need Advice RE: Contractor

    Q

    Comments (10)
    An estimate is not a binding number. It’s an educated guess based on what someone thinks it will take them for time and materials. If it takes longer, obviously it costs more on the time and materials type of verbal contract that most handymen use. A bigger project is likely a flat fee. I have a feeling that you mistook a time and materials for a flat fee. And I second that you had better start calling some local landscapers to regrade the property as that is likely the underlying issue. A concrete patch on a leaking basement as well be duct tape and baling wire.
    ...See More
  • melissastar
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Having just finally finished the legal and emotional battle that ensued when my 3 month renovation turned into a one-year-plus renovation, some words of advice:

    1) Reread your contract carefully. What does it provide, if anything, for legal remedies? Does it require binding arbitration? Are you entitled to late fees? Does it have a date certain for finish? What were the provisions for when you were to pay and how much? Are you entitled to fire him and with what kind of notice?

    You say you haven't paid him for the last part of the job...so you're ahead? In other words, if you were to fire him and you paid him for only what he has done now, would you have enough left to pay someone else to finish?

    2) You MAY be able to insist on a contract amendment specifying a date certain for finishing and imposing a late fee from then on. But unless it was in your contract to begin with, you probably can't collect or deduct them retroactively. And you can try to negotiate a fair deduction with him and write it up as a contract amendment. Otherwise though, he can sue you or put a lien on your house...something you don't want to have happen.

    3)Search online for your state's rules about licensing and home improvement contracts. Find out if he has broken any of those rules.

    4) If you are talking about a significant amount of money, consult a lawyer.

    5) If you are 95% done and you haven't paid him more than 50%, he has all the incentive in the world to finish promptly. And frankly...compared to my story and some others, you're not in bad shape at all. You might want to just urge him to get done, heave a sigh of relief and try to forget about it.

    Best of luck

  • steff_1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Since you did not have a contract with a finish date and late fees I don't see how you can deduct anything at all. If the contractor finishes all the work you will have to pay him all of the agreed upon fees unless he agrees otherwise.

    There are a lot of things the contractor can do besides "take the check or leave it" and I wouldn't be so sure a judge would take your side since you didn't have anything in writing and the contractor is willing to finish the work. There are always unknowns in a job and all the contractor would need to do is list any issues that came up in the process to justify the delays. In fact, you would very likely appear to be unreasonable to anyone looking at this issue.

    I agree your story is not nearly the horror story that we see here.

  • eugenie11
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks to all!

    To histokitch and live wire oak: while my delays may not seem long in actual terms, they nevertheless amount to FOUR TIMES longer than what was promised. So had my job been scheduled to take six months, it would now be going on two years. To my mind, it isn't the actual amount of time but the egregious misrepresentation, the disregard for our schedule, the way we came last - after the cable guy! - on the contractor's to-do list.

    Our job was small - we kept our classic cupboards, replaced appliances (not dishwasher), sink and faucet, had granite countertops and wooden island top made, and one custom cabinet built. The reason the job took so long was because so many mistakes were made and had to be redone, and the contractor was going through a few life events (new baby, new house). But as DH said, we've all had those issues and still managed to pay attention to our jobs. If DH did that kind of job where he works, he would be fired.

    To melissastar: I guess I don't want to fire him (yes, I do), I just hate paying the same price I would pay if the work were high quality and delivered on time. Believe me, I don't want to get involved with lawyers (who always win). I just wondered if all our anger and frustration had a dollar equivalent. I guess I haven't cooled off yet, and I feel like there should be some retribution for people who deliver mediocre performance. Am I wrong?

  • melissastar
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Eugenie, believe me, I know the feeling of wanting compensation for the delays, frustration and disappointment. Unfortunately, it's very tough to get it. My contract called for binding arbitration. But it also allowed me to fire the contractor and to get any work uncompleted done by someone else and deduct the payment to him. Nevertheless, I had to file a complaint with the state home improvement commission, then take it to arbitration. I started that process in March. Last week, I got the arbitrator's ruling. She awarded me $20K to get the work fixed and completed...a not unfair amount. But it cost me $5K in fees to the arbitration assoc. and $12,000 for the lawyer and expert witness. Now my attorney is going to substantially slash that fee, but still...I'm not coming out on top. The only real satisfaction I'm getting is that the $20K will almost certainly come from the state's home improvement comm. warranty fund and the GC will lose his license as a result.

    One other thing my experience has taught me. Document everything, from the get go. I had good email records, but a lot of what we decided and discussed was verbal. I should have then confirmed each decision by putting it in email afterwards. It may not have changed the outcome much, but it would have caused me less anxiety.

    I, too am still seething. Some nights I wake up in the middle of the night just furious. But, really, your story isn't THAT bad...especially if you got mediocre work instead of downright miserable work. (Stuff like the drawer slides falling off my drawers because they used screws that were too small. Every week, I'd lose the use of another drawer. All the cabinets need to be sanded and repainted. And so on and so forth.)

    So if it's not THAT bad, count your blessings and let it go. In six months, you'll be enjoying the kitchen and will (mostly) have forgotten the pain.

  • steff_1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Your comparison of a six month job taking two years just doesn't work proportionally. A friend actually had that happen with his kitchen addition so it's not unheard of.

    Contractors are generally not good at predicting how long projects will take. Mistakes happen in construction, it's not an exact science especially when working with existing spaces. They take time off in the middle of your project, it's just the way they work.

    One way to look at it is you would have paid a great deal more had you required a contract with late fees and outlined the standards you are holding him to after the fact.

    It's just not so egregious that it requires punishment. Learn from it and move on.

  • marcolo
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Um. A few bits of not so accurate advice here. No contract precludes later renegotiation.

    If you can get him to agree to a discount-which means you can't be too over the top in your demands--you can pay him in exchange for all lien waivers and a written acknowledgement of full settlement.

  • davidro1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    it is true that one may renegotiate anything at any time. Or attempt it.

    If the renovator asks for money to keep him motivated to finish, drop this one on him: if I can't get you to finish for X thousand, what makes you think you'll finish when only (insert smaller number here) is left for you to claim?

    Fair warning: the renovator may also renegotiate... He has more experience that you have. Beware.

  • billy_g
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I hate to be blunt but if you didn't have late fees in your contract it's your fault. He's not going to agree to them now.

    You are in a good position holding 50% of the payment.

    We've been in our renovated house for 4-1/2 months and the contractor still hasn't finished the punch list. But I owe him more than it would cost to have someone else finish the job so he has an incentive to finish it, someday. In the meantime I'm basically using his money for free and as I notice small things that aren't right I add them to the punch list. I gave up being furious. Getting even is much better.

    This assumes you can use your use your kitchen as it is now.

    Billy

  • KimberlyinNC
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's likely that he could accept partial payment then skip on down to the court house to file a "lis pendens" (basically a lien against the property PRIOR to it going to court). Check the laws in your jurisdiction. Win or lose in court these title clouds can come back to haunt you years & years later...been there, played that.Also check the contract for interest, losing might mean a substantial amount extra too.

  • eugenie11
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What I'm hearing is - my fault for not writing late fees into the contract, and now I just have to man up. But I thought the job was so small, and the contractor so certain of his timetable (only later did I learn he's wrong about almost everything), and we were in that honeymoon phase when it seemed so ill-humored to introduce a note of negativity - what could go wrong with this simple job? - into the all the rosy optimism and good will that was wafting around the kitchen way back when... sigh.

    I should pop over to that other thread about Mistakes I Made - first, don't be so nice. This contractor came so well-recommended, I thought I was getting Bob Vila himself, and his team of Harvard PhDs who just happen to do carpentry because they love wood and craftsmanship... Keep dreaming, girl. I thought I was being respectful. He saw a push-over. If I ever do another renovation, I'll keep it all business.

    I will deduct the cost of my plumber, who had to fix the mistakes of the contractor's plumber, after the faucet came off in my hand one night and I had Old Faithful all over the kitchen - the taps were turned on full blast because my once-awesome water pressure had a flow restricter on it... And I have definitely crossed off all the little things the contractor, in his optimistic phase, wanted to fix... At this point, I just want to write the check and say goodbye. Sometimes I wonder if these guys are so used to being yelled at, they don't even hear it anymore. Or they just count on wearing you out... It's not the way I could do my job...

    Thank you to all on GardenWeb for your valuable support and advice and resources during this process. I will be posting pictures as soon as I get through the holiday, with everything I learned about that process (take notes! take pictures! buy high-quality cookware!) so at least others can profit from my mistakes - and Marcolo, feel free to go to town against the OTK! I can take it!

  • fleur222
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I could have written that sentence or two about who I thought I had hired and recommendations etc.... I almost posted today just to vent .... I am burnt out on remodeling after 11 years of repairing/ updating/ adding on to an old cape. We just finished painting and sanding the floors as a sort of finale!

    I can't count how many times or how many ways different workers let me down, broke something while fixing something else... didn't show when expected, promised something then denied it, etc... I have wasted more money than I care to think about. I did find a few excellent workers that had both skill and integrity.

    I have to admit though... it has all been a BIG learning curve for me.... I did take too much time to decide, change my mind, want more than was in my budget, have high standards, find it difficult to live with the mess and dust and inconvenience, etc...

    In the end, I did feel it was important to realize that no one is perfect and though some workers did better than others, I wanted to end each contract with the knowledge that I kept my part of the bargain. I don't think any of the workers were unclear about what I thought of their work. Sometimes, just the knowledge that I had the ability to either recommend or not was empowering.
    It does take time, but soon you will get to focus on your new space and the remodeling part fades a bit!
    And thank goodness for GW and all of the wonderful knowledgeable people here who gave me fast facts, support, and ideas!

  • brianadarnell
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Marcolo is right- Your best best would be to get him to state a discounted amount and get lien releases and move on. Your time and frustration are worth nothing unless written in the contract. While your project did take longer than expected, these things happen and you cannot deduct if it is not stated beforedhand. If your kitchen is 95% finished, I think you should just pay him and move on. If he lets you subtract what it would cost to get the kitchen to 100%, then I'd say you are ahead.

    Whiled our builder majorly screwed up our project and its timeline time and time again, we weren't allowed to deduct anything for this even though I would have loved to (in addition to some other things I would have loved to do):)

    Depending on the amount you owe him, this may be the reason he isn't coming back to finish. He's tired paying his guys out of pocket when he's not getting reimbursed. Perhaps what you should do is pay him a little to get him to come finish to 100% and then pay him again. Get him to agree to this in writing WITH A DEADLINE.

  • Circus Peanut
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This would be a great occasion to reprint this classic. Take heart, it happens to the best of us!
    Hope this gives you a much needed laugh, Eugenie:

    source: New York Times

    Why We Needed a Prenup With Our Contractor

    By DEBORAH DERRICKSON KOSSMANN
    Published: October 28, 2007

    "NOW you know what it's like to have the bad boyfriend experience," I said to my husband.

    Our conversation wasn't about bad boyfriends; it was about contractors. Fifteen years ago, during my dating heyday, the bad boyfriend was my area of expertise. After Marc and I married, though, I thought that emotional turmoil was behind me forever. Then we bought our dream house with the wide front porch, a 1903 Victorian in need of renovation.

    This was in June, when the sparrows were gorging themselves on mulberries from the tree outside our kitchen window. Our plan was simple: We would pay double mortgages for a few months while we worked on the house, and move in when it was finished.

    Our first contractor, Jim, fit the bad-boyfriend mold exactly: He wanted to love us, he just didn't know how. He said all the right things but couldn't make us his priority. And after three months he dumped us as a result of misfortunes nearly too numerous to catalog: he damaged his testicle, broke his foot, was the victim of embezzlement by his partner and had his accounts frozen by the I.R.S. The combined tragedies resulted in his being unable to pay back our original deposit.

    Still, I argued, we should be nice to him, even if he wasn't treating us well. We needed to take the high ground.

    Marc looked at me as if I were insane.

    "I'm sure he'll pay us back," I said.

    After those crazy months with Jim, my husband and I told ourselves that at least his situation was so over-the-top that nothing like it could ever happen again. Right?

    I should have known that those who attract bad boyfriends tend to keep attracting them. At minimum, I should have known that rebound relationships aren't the answer to boyfriend woes.

    Then again, my husband and I are a rebound relationship, and we've been married 13 years. And our rebound contractor, Mike, seemed responsive and sympathetic. He came right over to give us an estimate, returned our calls promptly. He was, by all appearances, the opposite of our last failed relationship, which made him incredibly seductive.

    As we stood in the kitchen amid half-hung cabinets and missing countertops, Mike said: "I can't believe the other guy did that to you. I don't know how some guys get away with that." He said he would begin in early October and finish by Thanksgiving. Shaking my hand with a hearty grip, he said: "Don't worry, babe. It'll be fine."

    The Monday before the start date, Mike arrived with his foreman. They walked around looking everything over. They squeezed up into the crawl space while I stood underneath, listening to them talk of beams and square footage. "We'll be here tomorrow, babe," he said.

    My husband and I swooned.

    Tuesday arrived without Mike. Wednesday, Thursday and Friday passed as well. Marc began calling. The following Wednesday, Mike answered, sniffling. His sister had died suddenly last Tuesday, and the funeral was yesterday. He would be over next week and was very sorry.

    Staggered, we told him to take care of himself and not to worry.

    A few weeks later, he called to say there had been another family tragedy and now he and his wife had custody of his sister's four young children.

    We were again appropriately horrified. This time, however, we timidly asked, "Uh ... ?"

    "Next week," he said.

    Some bad boyfriends are excuse-makers. Were these stories fact or fiction? It was hard to know. Often the reasons a bad boyfriend can't be with you sound quite reasonable: "I have to work late." "I hurt my knee playing football." My favorite was the one who canceled a date by saying, "Did I mention I'm getting married next month?"

    He hadn't. Neither had he mentioned that he was living with his fianc'e.

    When Mike returned, pale and teary-eyed, he told us that the paternal grandparents of his sister's children wanted custody and that he might be out a few days for court hearings.

    Not to sound callous, but I no longer wanted to hear about court hearings or custody. All I wanted to hear was his truck pulling into our driveway. I wanted to hear his hammering and stapling as he built the stairs to the attic. I even wanted to hear the branch-snapping crash of construction waste plummeting from the attic onto my rhododendron.

    But I wouldn't hear these sounds in the days to come. When Mike finally reappeared, he shook his head and muttered, "Court stuff." A bout of food poisoning was next. Then his assistant lost all his front teeth in a car accident.

    "Do you think we could be done by early December?" I asked anxiously.

    Mike laughed.

    Soon he wasn't calling me "babe" anymore. The bloom had officially come off the rose. When I asked about progress, he responded in a monotone: "It's coming along."

    I surveyed the bare wood framing, the insulation drifting like toxic snow from the open ceiling, the pantry without shelves. Nothing had come along. Actions must match words in a trusting relationship. Bad boyfriends never get this fact.

    We kept hearing about his crew, but we never met them. Then he told us he fired them for partying on another job. "But I want to do your job right," he said, "so I'm doing it myself."

    Despite our deepening skepticism, we clung to such pronouncements. How could we push him when he respected us like this? We wanted so badly to believe.

    Finally it was Dec. 1, our moving day. But nothing was finished. Mike promised to work from now through Christmas. I was frantically throwing our life into boxes at the old house to take to the new house. Between car runs, I hissed at him, "Can you at least put some shelves up in the pantry?"

    It was done the next day.

    "See," I said to Marc. "Nagging helps."

    He rolled his eyes. "I bet he's gone for the next three weeks."

    Actually he was gone for the next six weeks. In the living room we set up the artificial Christmas tree on boxes of floorboards. Then we placed our unpacked boxes around the tree like presents. (Mike would later explain this absence by proclaiming with great sensitivity, "I figured you guys needed time to move in and get settled.")

    Our innocence shattered, we suspected the worst: that he was seeing someone else. But as long as he came back to us, wasn't that the most important thing? He called after a weeklong vacation in Niagara Falls, saying: "My wife and I really needed that getaway. It's been so stressful."

    Then he showed up with tape all over his hand - he had broken his thumb. The event had included an afternoon at the emergency room, extensive radiology and a surgical consultation. Postsurgery, he would need to be out six weeks.

    He delivered this prognosis from my bedroom doorway while I was putting on my eye makeup and trying to prepare for work. He looked sorrowfully at his taped hand. "You know, Deb, I never realized how much I use it in my work."

    Suddenly I hated him in the way I had hated all those previous bad boyfriends just before the breakup. I was sick of looking at his dusty jeans and listening to his excuses. "So how are you planning to get our job done?" I said curtly.

    "No problem," he said. "I'll be over tomorrow with more crew. We'll finish this up and I'll go have the procedure."

    The next morning he called Marc: "I'm on my way. I just have to pick up something at the Home Depot."

    He never showed. Our calls yielded nothing. Weeks later, he called to tell us that on his way over that day he had felt as if he were having a heart attack; he was now in cardiac rehab. "I'm going to find someone to finish your job," he said. "I'm an honorable guy."

    We called. We sent letters. We hated ourselves for pursuing him when he clearly didn't love us, but we couldn't help ourselves. We needed to know where he was, what he was doing, and why he couldn't be with us.

    Marc fantasized about spray-painting "Unreliable" on his shiny black truck.

    I fantasized about showing Mike the error of his ways, about shaming him into being a better person - the impulse I always felt with bad boyfriends.

    We resorted to stalking him like a jilted lover, cruising by his house until we saw his truck parked out front. After Marc knocked, a surprised Mike opened the door, looking tanned and rested. "I was going to call after I got back from Disney World," he said, his voice trailing off.

    "When are you coming over?" my husband demanded.

    "Soon. Real soon. My wife got a staph infection after minor surgery and has been in terrible pain. That's why. ... "

    Marc stared him down.

    "I just need to get my crew together, you know," Mike said, pulling the door shut.

    It's now June again. The mulberry is blooming. Our stuff is still in boxes, our rugs rolled up. We live within plastic sheeting.

    Meanwhile, we're going to court with our first love, Jim. He called the other day to arrange a meeting to work things out. Waiting alone in the Chinese restaurant where they had agreed to meet, Marc finally called Jim. No answer. No call back. Bad boyfriends rarely change, but somehow you always give them one more chance to redeem themselves.

    SOME day, I'm sure, we'll also meet Mike in court - if we can get him to show up, that is. We joke that no jury of our peers (those who have had relationships with contractors) would convict us of homicide or any other crime of passion. As they say, the opposite of love is not hate but indifference. But you can't be indifferent to a bad boyfriend who owes you money and stands in the way of your dream house.

    Like all bad relationships, the hurt will fade with time and the promise of new love. We recently met with a new contractor about finishing the job. He came right out to do the estimate and talked to us in a soft, sympathetic tone.

    Of course, after being jilted twice, we no longer trust our own judgment. This new contractor (I guess he's a rebound relationship, too?) seemed a little leery of us as well. Maybe, in recounting our previous failed relationships, we came across as too needy? Because it's been a month and he hasn't come back to us with an estimate. I'm again feeling defensive, racked by insecurities (Are we not attractive enough? Not smart enough?) and ready to give up.

    But finding Mr. Right is a dream that dies hard. As we watched our new contractor drive off that afternoon, I felt my heart flutter in the familiar way. "He seems nice," I said to my husband, smiling, nearly giddy with infatuation. "What do you think?"

    Deborah Derrickson Kossmann is a psychologist in Havertown, Pa. Dialogue in "Modern Love" essays is reconstructed from the authors' memory.

  • eugenie11
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you circuspeanut - this made me feel much better - not so much from laughter as from relief that my situation, by comparison, seems bearable.

    But only by degree. I think my contractor fits the Bad Boyfriend profile completely, and I'm lucky I'm doing only a small job with him. Those excuses definitely rang a familiar bell - I got some real doozies ("I'm at the geneticists for the new baby!" What in the world do you say to THAT?) - and, yes, I know life happens to all of us while we're doing our jobs... but that's the point. Some of us still do our jobs.

    There s definitely a contractor personality profile - which is not to say some of them aren't superior, and the 80/20 rule functions in all professions - but I think being so dependent on them adds to the tension, as well as having them in working on the 'cherished' home. As my DH said to me, "Just be glad he's not your surgeon." Or my boyfriend.

  • babushka_cat
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    what does your contract say? You cannot just start deducting because you feel like it - or he could start adding because he felt like it. take heart - my remodel started in MAY, it is now DEC, not done yet!

  • eugenie11
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good point, babushka cat, though I wouldn't say I'm deducting because 'I feel like it.'

    More like I feel like my pain and frustration have to be worth... something... no?

  • melissastar
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Again, Eugenie...no matter how unfair it seems, if you try to deduct anything from the contracted amount you owe him, you risk the lien. IF your contract specifically says you can pay someone else to do remedial work and not pay him, then you are OK...but be sure to document everything and be prepared to defend in court, if necessary. IF you get him to agree to renegotiate the contract, getting a new written agreement for a lesser payment in light of your additional expenses for repair work or whatever, then you are OK. But you can't unilaterally deduct any amount without risking legal action against you.

    I think, Marcolo, you may have been referring to my post to Eugenie about renegotiating as in error. I was less than clear, saying "you may be able to insist on renegotiating... But unless it was in your original contract..." It would have been more clear to say "If you can convince him to renegotiate, you may be able to get a discount. But unless it (i.e. a provision allowing you to deduct for repairs or delays) was in your original contract, you can't (unilaterally) deduct them retroactively.

    Eugenie...don't let it eat you up. Sadly, your pain and frustration aren't worth a tinker's damn to the contractor. And probably not to a judge, either. Live, learn and be grateful it wasn't worse. I say this with all the sympathy in the world for you. It really does suck.


  • brianadarnell
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Melissa is right. It really does feel awful, but just think if you were left frustrated and in pain and without the money to finish your project or without a kitchen entirely. I know its all relative and to you this may seem bad, but it could have been much much worse. I stand by my suggestion of getting the guy to come back for a percentage (and get it in writing) and then paying the last percentage when its done.

    Plus, 95% is a lot further than some people get!

  • brickeyee
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "while my delays may not seem long in actual terms, they nevertheless amount to FOUR TIMES longer than what was promised. So had my job been scheduled to take six months, it would now be going on two years."

    If it is not in writing in a contract you have nothing.
    Verbal agreements are worth the paper they are printed on.
    He will say it was an estimate.

    No paper, no value.

    No late fee, you owe him and cannot "deduct" anything.

    "I will deduct the cost of my plumber, who had to fix the mistakes of the contractor's plumber, after the faucet came off in my hand one night and I had Old Faithful all over the kitchen."

    Did you give him a chance to make good on the work?

    If you unilaterally hired someone else without giving him the opportunity to make repairs it is on your nickel, not his.

    He likely has the right under state law to file a lien if you fail to pay the bill he tenders.
    The law tends to be rather easy on tradesmen (though some states require contracts to try and limit problems) since it is easy to stiff one.
    Once the repair is made, they are at the homeowners mercy to make good on the bill.

  • babushka_cat
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    and his reply could be similar - he may feel you are a difficult customer and you now need to pay more to address his pain and suffering. the contract rules. by this statement "I do not have anything in writing, but the contractor knows we are furious" i am guessing you may not have a detailed contract which is partially the problem. i also agree with poster above. if you have stopped your agreed upon payments that may be contributing to the slowness at this point. focus on the prize - get him to finish the job and enjoy the new kitchen.

    i had to fire my cabinet maker due to huge issues - it was incredibly stressful and challenging to navigate. we came close to legal action but thankfully both of us did not want to go that route so we were able work something out wtihin the terms of our contract. it ended up costing me more as i had to go hire someone else who cost more to finish the job. i still get angry when i think about him, but life is short, i want to move on.

  • eugenie11
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you melissastar and brianadarnell - you are both 100% right, file this whole episode under painful but unimportant, in the larger scheme of things.

    I guess no one likes to be reminded that their pain and frustration aren't worth a tinker's damn, just as you say. And thank you for reminding me that things could be worse, and this will fade with time. It already has, between lunch and dinner!

    brickeyee - your post is scaring me that I won't even get my plumber's fee back!

    I suspect I may be more of a hard a** than these forgiving folks on GW, having been raised by exacting parents, who made me pay for my mistakes (can you tell?). When I screw up, I don't rest until I make good on my errors. I'm always surprised by people who can just let things slide. I mean genuinely surprised. I just don't get that at all.

  • babushka_cat
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    this is my first remodel and i have learned a ton. this learning has come at a price - stress, money and my time. and i am not blame free - i made my share of mistakes in this too. i think rarely is any situation completely 1 sided.

    just now UPS delivered a box to my front door. he drops it on the front stoop and walks away. the box has a GAPING HOLE IN IT. i call back to the guy "this box you delivered has a gaping hole in it". he just looks at me and shrugs. JUST SHRUGS. no response, no comment... unbelievable! I move towards the driver, seeking some kind of resolution. he gets out of the truck and scans the box noting it was delivered damaged so i have recourse in case the contents are damaged. i hear ya - i gotta believe if i was a UPS guy i could and would do better.

    to save my sanity i choose my battles as there are too many to fight and life is just too short.

  • eugenie11
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    babushka cat - oh, I know he thinks I am, in your words, a difficult customer - I overheard one of his subs say, before starting to paint, "Can you believe she wants me to put down drop cloths?"

  • steff_1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you didn't call the contractor first when the faucet broke, then you can't deduct the plumber's bill unless the contractor agrees. Since he didn't see the damage and know what went wrong, how can he take responsibility? Whatever the problems on your project you owed him a call about the faucet and an opportunity to fix it.

    Handling a project well is not about being forgiving or placing blame, but about focusing on the goal and being reasonable.

  • eugenie11
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Steff 1 - Oh, the contractor agreed to let me bring in my plumber. We called HIS plumber for the first three mistakes. My feeling at that point was that, if I brought back his plumber and he got it wrong again, I would have no one to blame but myself.

    I think you bend way over in the other direction when it comes to who should be reasonable - my frustration with my contractor doesn't come out of thin air, or my unrealistic expectations, but from expectations HE set up, and contracted for, and then failed to deliver.

  • brickeyee
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Without knowing all the details it is hard to judge if any of the issues you have had are solely the contractor's fault.

    They may well be, or they may be the normal issues that often creep up in remodeling, especially in older structures.

    I have a number of customers, and have been told that one of the reasons they call me for work is that I can deal with the 'Aw sh*T' stuff that shows up.
    I can quickly figure out what needs to be done, and after discussion with the owner, get things accomplished with an eye on the final result.
    I have a group of tradesmen that I use that are all very good at their work.
    We have learned from each other, and they refer me when they see one of their customers being yanked around.

    One of the things you have to learn in any remodeling project is that things go wrong.
    A single hammer blow can require a whole piece of cabinet 'skin' be replaced.
    No one has x-ray vision to know what is buried inside the wall.
    If it is important enough I do have rigid and flexible bore scopes and can take a peek around the edge of an electric box or in a small hole, but it all takes time and cost money.
    If it will not save more than it costs, you might as well just open the wall and look (maybe a receptacle sized hole and then just use an inspection mirror.

  • steff_1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you called the contractor and he agreed, then the deduction is authorized. No question.

    You left out a lot of important info at first. Detail is critical when you are asking for advice about deducting payment from a contract.

    As hard as it is when you are upset about these issues, you have to step back and present your case clearly. This approach will be very important if the contractor disputes any of your claims. If you come across as unreasonable, you could lose just on that basis even though you are right legally.

    For example, you were clearly inconvenienced but claiming you need compensation for "pain and suffering" for a small kitchen reno is a bit over the top. To put this is perspective, my sister was recently hit head on by a wrong way driver and she isn't claiming "pain and suffering".

  • live_wire_oak
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Put The Money Pit on your Netflix que if you want to learn the contractor definition of "two weeks". It is NOT the same two weeks of time that regular human beings measure. And, if you had done enough research, you'd know that and have laughed till tears came to your eyes when he said that. Your project is having it's share of challenges, but then, all projects do.

    What we're telling you here is that nothing so far seems egregious. And, it's all about expectations and perceptions. You're irritated because you began the project without understanding what you were getting yourself into, and consequently, you're taking fairly common occurrences and stewing over them rather than letting the issues roll off of you as you focus on the completed project. Your project actually seems to be fairly well managed as far as a realistic timeline, and while it seems that you've had some plumbing issues that were more than just inconveniences, at least you are mostly done without a flood completely destroying the first floor or a serious on the job injury that stopped all work for months.

    Count your blessings! And look forward to using your new kitchen. You're really close to completion.

  • eugenie11
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My thanks to all - even those of you who have asked me to examine my contribution to the problem.

    Believe it or not, it is my nature to start from a position of equality - equal respect, equal understanding, equal expectations. I was raised to be fair-minded in the extreme (just ask my kids! or my parents, for that matter) and more often than not I am hurt by looking at others and thinking I am looking in a mirror, which may just be human nature, I don't know.

    I am far from perfect, but I do hold myself to high standards, the least of which are promptness, honesty, and clarity in what I can deliver professionally. I know every job suffers from unforeseen delays, mistakes, and errors in judgment. Sh*t happens. I was pretty understanding in the beginning. Maybe TOO understanding. I'm beginning to think MY mistake was not being tough enough.

    The problems with this job all resulted from sloppiness - failure to measure properly, to take time to level, to put down drop cloths or protect new appliances when sanding, to take careful notes or pictures with that phone you're busy checking your email on. I do believe those expectations are fairly entry-level, if you want to be a contractor. To everyone at GW - learn from my mistakes!

    When my island top came in without the overhang, or my granite counters were off-level, or the plumber insisted the water pressure was always weak (turns out he didn't flush the line), or the custom cabinet came in a foot too short - a foot! and this was the second try! - these were not examples of someone opening a wall in an old house and finding the wiring needed to be redone.

    When my contractor didn't think it was important to show up, as days became weeks, because he was at his closing or doing his walk through or visiting his other jobs, these didn't seem like 'common occurrances' that I should overlook. Maybe I should have been clearer at the top of the post, but I don't think 'well-managed' would be the way anyone would describe this job. Even, at this point, the contractor.

    And I do count my blessings. I know it could have been worse. But I'd hate to have my performance described in those terms.

  • Janet Sandoval
    2 years ago

    I'm with you 100% Eugenie. Glad to know there are other people in the world fair minded with integrity. Now, just wish there were more contractors of the same making.