I couldn't remember exactly where the footers stopped.

I also admit to completely losing track of which furniture pieces you want to use in there. Since others are so good with furniture and decorating stuff, I was betting they could figure it out!

I'd be tempted to do sofa with its back to the cafe and build-in media storage beside the fireplace. I'd hang the tv on the wall above it using one of those gimbal things. Then I could alter the angle just a bit from being dead flat to something that allowed for better viewing from the sofa.

If the space in the cafe gets a little wider, it would be tempting to build in some low storage between the family room and the cafe - kinda like a built-in version of a sofa table with the operating side facing into the cafe. Thinking anyplace between 30-48" tall.

One of the reasons I like it is the sofa won't feel so floaty. I'd get a place to place outlets for lamps in the living room.

Anne999--I'll play around with those ideas.

Bmore--I've been thinking about your plan all afternoon. Looking at it on paper, it looks comfortable. The only thing I worry about is the oven location because of the traffic in front and that it's so far away from the cooktop for cooktop-to-oven cooking.

I like your furniture placement ideas. We were planning on buying at least a new couch at the end of this as ours is wearing out so we're open that way. I had a chance to draw Lavender's idea out before leaving for afternoon stuff, but not yours yet. That will be after dinner. I'm excited to show DH and get his opinion!

Breezy, do you often do cooktop-to-oven dishes? I move something from stove to the oven about once a year, so that's not a consideration for me, but I know others do that more often. Just making sure you're not using a factor that's smaller than it seems. I'm not questioning your intelligence...It's just that I've done that before, while overlooking something more important, so I know it's possible.

I like the house layout, but get a little worried about the size of the family room space in Bmore's layout if it needs to start 1 ft further back, and since it will be at least 6" thick, and all of it will come out of the room size to leave the tree its 10 ft. But maybe with the cool cafe as part of the room, it won't matter if that section is smaller. I really like Mikomum's suggestion for storage on the family room side.

Losses with that plan would be the closer connection between kitchen and dining (particularly for using the buffet as serving space and the shallow storage you had planned for the dining side), the baking center, and some pantry capacity. You could have a baking ctr by the oven, but then you'd lose the whole pantry.

I like what it does for the entry and wish the living room side could have a doorway like that!

Back to the other plan a sec. It's not as good as a photo from Isle2isle, but here is a photo of our living room...with about 6 ft from couch to TV. We don't have a table, we use the floorspace for sitting, Wii activities, and exercise video workouts, but you can have a good laugh at my PHotobucket drawing tool table to try to show how it would work in the space.

Breezy - here are some pics at night, complete with flashes in the windows! Sorry I couldn't get them up sooner, and actually Rhome your photo DOES get the space idea across perfectly!

Not sure which of the layouts you're fancying the most now, and in any case mine is not exactly your family room layout of course...we have our fireplace and TV where you might have your TV/storage unit. And our kitchen/family room are the whole width of our house, so out our windows is outside and not another room as you would have (with the living room). But you get the idea. Also we have a contemporary look, and no kids (just 2 old cats). We did a kitchen reno but not the family room, and plan to eventually replace our carpet and hearth and possibly do some custom cabinetry for the TV. I'm also on the lookout for a new coffee table, perhaps oval, because it's all a bit too linear with the island/couch/coffee table/hearth (which is why we put a little curve on the island). But it's a Henrybuilt coffee table - from when they made furniture only - and DH likes it (a lot more than I do now).

When sitting on our couch, the TV is 8'4" to 9"6 away, depending on where you're sitting (it's a 40" flatscreen). From the recliner it's 12' 6" to the TV. From the sink (on the island), it's 15' 4", and I can see it just fine from there.

So as you look at our layout (with kitchen on the left, like your original plans) all the measurements are:
Island/28" to 31" aisle (our island has a subtle curve)/back of couch (couch is just 34" actually)/18" between couch and coffee table/coffee table is 20"/30" aisle between coffee table and fireplace hearth (24" deep).

It's hard to get a good photo of the whole room that shows the aisles, so here are a few. All just food for thought, and hope it helps you to visualize your own space!

This is the whole family room, from the best POV to see the furniture (which would be from the upper right corner of your layout). A small corner of our island is visible on the right:

From the sink (on the island):

The space between the island and back of couch is 28 to 31" (the counter stools look like they back up nearly to the couch, but they're actually at a diagonal from the couch and have plenty of room):

This shows the aisle between the coffee table and hearth, 30":

Also, I really like bmore's layout with the cafe!!

Rhome--Evening. I do cooktop-oven cooking probably about once a month. Sometimes we crave, say, the same pork tenderloin the next week and do it twice in a month. But you're right that I shouldn't place that high on my priority list. I'm still concerned that the ovens open into an aisle. I like that entry too! I was just starting to draw Bmore's plan out with bumpout restrictions to see what the family room would be like when I saw your post. I worry about the same thing there too. Thanks for the pic. I can't believe that is your only living space for such a huge family! You need a bigger family room more than I do! Your artistic coffee table rendering is impressive.

Isle2isle--Thank you, thank you, thank you for those photos! Those help me tremendously. Our measurements are so similar its spooky! Your pics and my drawing of a sectional like Rhome suggested make me feel confident that the family room could work with this arrangement. Great kitchen BTW! (I caught a glimpse of it on Flickr with these photos.) Can I ask about a couple of things? What brand is your fridge? And those pulls are very similar to what I want. What's the brand/name? I really appreciate you taking the time to take the pics and to post them for me. I'm continually amazed by how members go out of their way to help strangers around here!

Now I had to go have a look at Isle2isle's kitchen! I'd like to know what the counter is on the island. I really love it. Definitely a cool looking kitchen.

Breezy , thanks for the compliments and I'm happy to help, especially because we're in the PNW too. (sheepish) I have yet to post our finished kitchen here but have drafted it and just need to pull it together!!
Rhome, I only have a couple things on flickr and am a web photo novice so that's part of my hesitation in posting our completed project.

Answers:
STONE: Basaltina, from Pental. It was our forever stone from day one (well, after ruling out PaperStone, which I'd thought I'd wanted for most of the 3 years of kitchen planning). We hardly see Basaltina anywhere on GW; we absolutely LOVE it.
HANDLES: Sugatsune 16 series, stainless, purchased from Spokane Hardware Supply. They had all the length options we needed for big drawers, AND, they don't have ends that stick out (and catch clothing!) like many of those types.
FRIDGE: a basic Amana French Door (no icemaker or water), and was the only appliance we kept in the reno; it's from 2007 and I don't know if the model is still available (AFB2534FES).

Breezy you're right the dimensions are so similar! In our home they work well for the two of us, and we do often have friends/family here (12 pp for Thanksgiving), and no one was bumping into each other. It's just a difficult layout when the room is pretty narrow but long like this. You'll be able to make it work though, and I look forward to seeing your ongoing plans!

You could switch the ref for the ovens - ends up roughly in the orientation to the island that isle2isle is showing. This has some good points when you're entertaining.

I think the connection to dining is a toss up - kitchen on right has better sightlines into dining room than kitchen on left because of the pantry and oven location-to-dining room view; kitchen on left is easier to put out buffet dishes; but perhaps in either plan, the dining room isn't close enough to carry on conversation.

The way I count space, the family room in the long orientation is 8.5' by 15'. Even with a 1.5 foot reduction in the 12' dimension, it's still 10.5' x 13'. Both of those measurements have the aisle(s) added on, not included. The thing that makes your space a little different from isle2isle is the placement of the door to the back deck.

It would feel better to me because the seating would still be cozy, but not back up into a traffic aisle. Having people not get hit by passersby or with water is my thing!

You could switch the ref for the ovens - ends up roughly in the orientation to the island that isle2isle is showing. This has some good points when you're entertaining.

Yes, of course. That would still work fine and solve the oven problem.

The ovens don't look like that much of a problem...wouldn't the aisle be blocked more often by the fridge opening? Also, the fridge makes a great triangle with the prep sink and cooktop, in its current location.

The ovens can use the end of the island as a landing area and I think I'd want the fridge closer to the cooktop...but it all depends on how each of us cooks. Everyone is different :)

Bmore- Still love the plan! Beautiful and all those windows will make such a difference on a gray Seattle area day!

Isle--Thanks for the details. Fridge looks great with new everything else. I'm a photo posting novice also, but after you do it a few times it gets easier. Posting from Flickr is easier than Buehl's directions for Photobucket on the "Read Me" thread because you don't have to copy her code and cut and paste your HTML code in. With Flickr, you just cut and paste the HTML code into GW message box without Buehl's code. I don't remember seeing Basaltina at Pental. You must post your beautiful kitchen for all to admire!

Bmore--I could switch ovens and fridge, but then fridge would open into the aisle. I certainly open the fridge many more times a day than ovens, but fridge wouldn't have the danger element in the aisle like ovens. Thinking to do.

I'm not really concerned about wanting to carry on conversations kitchen to DR. Most guests are milling about and in the kichen area where I am before meals, and then, if it's a sit-down meal, we're all in the DR together. My old kitchen had one tiny little doorway to DR so I am used to being cut-off. To me, a good connection to FR is much more important as that's where we hang out almost all day when not in the kitchen or entertaining.

You make a good point about the aisle to deck door.

--First, our lot is pie shaped because of cul-de-sac. Narrow in front and on the sides. The backyard is where the outdoor play, eating, and entertaining takes place when the weather is nice enough. (I live in PNW remember!) So that aisle to deck door would have lots of traffic. Isle2isle doesn't have that issue.

--Second, I never thought about traffic behind couch in that scenario. In the old FR in bottom right corner, the couch backed up to the aisle from garage door. We're used to it, but that side of the room didn't feel cozy.

Lavender--you're right that from a working standpoint, fridge is better for prep where Bmore drew it than where ovens are. I'm not worried about oven landing zone, just the danger of opening up hot ovens and moving food while others are milling about. Windows are great here!

Breezy- I don't think you have to worry about the oven being in the way. If it was where the pantry is, then maybe people would walk in and not see it...but since people have to walk past the pantry to get to the ovens...they'll notice it's open.

Also, from the dining room, you have to walk into the kitchen family room...and turn...to reach the ovens. Again, time to see that it's open. Obvious from the family room area, too, it the ovens are open.

Since my raised oven/microwave opens into the four foot entrance between the kitchen and dining area, I just say, "Hot stuff coming out of the oven" if there's a lot of people milling around. That seems to get their attention! :)

Lavender--My old kitchen had the oven opening into the aisle. And my kitchen was a Corridor Kitchen with the path running from the front of the house to the back and backyard. It was horrible trying to use the oven during a party. Everyone wanted to either stand in the kitchen and talk or walk through it. Since there was very little landing space by the range, most hot things were landed across the aisle. I got tired of asking people to move. People become deaf during a party at my house apparently!

Bmore's plan is a bit different in that others could choose to walk around the fireplace stack if they saw the oven was open in time. I'm probably just being sensitive to the oven location more because of my old kitchen layout.

Fridge isn't open that long? And the French Doors mean it isn't protruding as far as the oven? Just tossing thoughts out. It keeps the fridge more accessible to others without broaching your work perimeter ;-)...and gets the oven nearer to you at the stove. The fridge, prep sink, and stove still work as a triangle...just a little bigger. Have to weigh more important to have oven close for moving hot things (safety), or to have the fridge closer because it's accessed more often (convenience). Those darn trade-offs we always have to face in kitchen design... Even more sure than the wish for 'just 2 more feet' that would seemingly make almost any plan 'perfect!' lol

Answering your question about sofas from Friday:

A "Tight Back" sofa is usually narrower than 42" and still provides room to lie down comfortably. You could also try a narrow contemporary sofa with loose cushions and move the cushions when DH needs to sleep there.

Steff--hadn't thought of the idea of cushions that could be easily moved. We need to go look at sofas. Thank you!

Rhome--Life in general is all about trade-offs, isn't it? Just like kitchen design. ;) I remember a whole unit in the 6th grade called "Trade-offs." Every Friday we would see a short movie out in the pod about how to make good choices and how if you picked one thing you couldn't have the other as it related to money, food, whatever. Then we'd have a discussion about the film. For some reason, those lessons have stuck with me. Who knew that 30 years later I'd still be cursing those trade-offs!

If I had to choose, I think having the fridge closer at prep would be best.

Definitely go shopping! It will be fun and give you great ideas on how you want to set up your seating area. Also, make sure the piece or pieces you love will fit in your space.

My mom and I still talk about a Bob Vila episode, where the man (and he was an architect) redesigned his entire home. When he and his wife went furniture shopping, none of the pieces they wanted would fit in their kitchen space.

They had a lovely kitchen seating area (and three small children) and I believe, all they could fit in was a loveseat and a chair. They had shopped for leather sofas, chairs and ottoman and the designer kept saying, that while the furniture was lovely...'unfortunately, it won't fit in your space'.

We've never forgotten that episode, which is probably why I'm always drawing furniture on my plans :)

When you furniture shop be sure to let the sales associates know what you are looking for in case they have additional ideas. For a while extra deep sofas with piles of pillows were the norm, but there's a trend away from that now.

The architect story is funny and pretty typical. I worked with architects for years and it's rare to find one who considers the function of the finished space.

The new plans look so much better and it's great you have flexibility at this point to make such big changes. If you take time now, your new space will be so much more functional.

I'm not sure of your decorating style but I have seen some great mission style wood back sofas in various widths and depths. My MIL had some semi-custom ones done. They held 'a lot of person' with a minimum depth. I like a couch deep enough to lay two people. It might be a nice option in the family room if the configuration works.

Lavender--LOL at TOH! That would kill me to do that! It wasn't until we seriously thought about moving the kitchen did furniture placement become an issue.

Steff--Are you a designer? I have someone (old neighbor actually) at the only good furniture store in town that we've worked with in the past. I'll bring my plan down to her so she can see the space. She won't recognize it! And can I ask to which plan you are referring to liking? Rhome's with a sectional back to kitchen or Bmore's plan which moves the rooms around? Trying to gage opinions! ;)

Mikomum--(love your name BTW) Mission style isn't quite our taste, but something in that vein might work given the right stain color.

Yes, I am a designer. My experience is in commercial projects for corporate clients with a large architectural firm. I'm retired now and wandered in here one day while researching my own kitchen update.

I like Bmorepanic's layout moving the spaces around because almost anything you do in the other space would be based on compensating for problems. Even with the sofa backing to the kitchen, you don't have enough room to be comfortable.

The fireplace works better because it wasn't functional out in the middle. No matter how you placed the furniture in either room it would be difficult to enjoy the fireplace where it was.

I feel the same way as Steff_1 about the fireplace. If you wanted it for general house ambience, it works OK in the plan with the kitchen at the top left. But if you really want to focus on it and enjoy it while sitting in a room, Bmore's works much better.

Thanks Steff. DH doesn't like Bmore's plan. When I draw it on paper, it doesn't look like much more furniture can fit in there than could fit the other way, plus I loose my DR storage space. On the other hand, the FR is less in the main path to the backyard with her plan.

Bmore's measurements were off on the dimensions of the bumpout. It can start 10' from the top of the plan, then 6" of exterior wall. From side to side, the bumpout is already poured to allow for 27" of finished interior space. Taking that into account, it doesn't work out on paper to have a decent buffet space, fireplace, and TV/built-in wall storage in that space. I'll have DH scan my drawing tomorrow so I can post it.

Rhome--you're right.

According to your first post, you plan to use the FR quite a lot and for most of your family activities. The narrow space in the first plan is very awkward so it would be a good idea to move it if possible.

Do you have the TV or know the size? It really makes a difference in the distance of the seating from the screen.

Breezy- I know you've seen this type of plan before, but incorporating some of Bmore's ideas (like the banquette) would this work?

You could have pantry storage on both sides of the dish storage on the dining room wall. I think this is about as much pantry space as you had in the old plan A (?) You could also include a pantry at the end of the counterspace, if you moved the oven over.

This gets the banquette back in the corner (with the windows) and plenty of room for informal dining. Also great craft space for the kids and homework area, as they get older :)

The family room has more space with the banquette moved...so more room for a walkway and furniture. The chair might be too crowded, but it was hard to count squares after my white out blitz. (LOL) The only way to get it out was pound on the upside down bottle...and I got a little too much, when it finally came out.

Anyway, if you redraw the banquette in the corner...will it work in your space? Also, remember that today's adorable little kids will be tomorrow's much bigger (but sometimes still adorable) teenagers...so a little more space everywhere is a GOOD thing!

{{!gwi}}

I forgot to add...were it up to me (which it obviously isn't LOL) I would choose Bmore's plan. It's such a light and beautiful space and I would use the family area as a sitting area/play space for the kids and put the TV in the living room.

It would be easy to fit furniture in that space and with the fireplace moved...you have the perfect wall for the TV and storage. You could also fit in dish storage, by moving the fireplace over (just a little) to center it on the dining room table, and add built in dish storage on either side. This would give you solid walls, for more storage, on the other side of the wall, as well.

By putting the TV in the living room, this would separate the adult and kid spaces, but the kids could have a small TV in their space...just for their DVDs and programs...or the cooking channel :)

I was thinking of something like this...with a small, cozy seating area in front of the windows. The bigger sectional or TV seating could go in the living room. I adjusted the bump out (I hope) and made that area a bookcase, between the banquette and loveseat/small sofa.

The fireplace is moved over just a bit, with dish storage on each side (dining room) and maybe a small TV and additional storage on family side.

The living room has plenty of space for comfortable seating (maybe a leather sectional) so it would be easy to fit furniture in the space.

Bmore, hope you don't mind the slight tweaks. I just wanted to see if the furniture would fit :)

{{!gwi}}

Steff--TV is 32" on the diagonal, but DH has talked about wanting to work in a bigger one if it works with the layout.

Lavender--I hope you asked Santa to bring you more whiteout for Christmas! ;) Thanks for your efforts thinking about and posting these drawings. As usual, you give me more to think about.

So I drew out three more plans last night.

1. Lavender's variation from last week with the banquette inside the kitchen at the peninsula. I'm not sure that it really gives that much more space to the FR, but it negatively impacts the kitchen.

2. Bmore's plan with the correct dimensions for the bumpout. I can't seem to fit the buffet area, fireplace, and built-in storage for TV and accessories in that space. I left the seating area blank after having some trouble late last night getting furniture to fit right. (I was tired.) I'm not sure that it will fit more furniture.

3. My Plan B, again. This time I shrunk the cooktop/island aisle to 42", which gives the FR more space. I also drew it with a different patio door to get more room there too. I had wanted french doors to deck for ease of entertaining flow, but I'd compromise to a single as I live where outdoor entertaining is only possible for about half the year or less. I also changed the corner pantry as DH seems to like this more. Furniture fits much better.

I'm leaning towards this last one. DH says he's good with it, but I wanted to give y'all a last look at these and see what you think.

Changing the door and moving the sofa back does help that last plan quite a bit. You have closer to 10' there now and that makes a nice size seating area.

The flow should not be a problem in the summer. I've had french doors and rarely opened both sides even with guests. I currently have only one back door and live in a warm climate (72o right now) and it is not a problem.

Have you tested the pantry to make sure you can reach to the back?

Unloading the dishwasher will be a chore, but there's always tradeoffs as mentioned earlier.

You will need space between the ovens and fridge. I'm sure one of the kitchen experts can tell you exactly how much. Also wondering about ovens next to food storage and the heat.

I've attached a TV/distance calculator if you need it. There are simpler ones you can use also.

Here is a link that might be useful: TV calculator

I wrote you two nights ago I believe. :) I do prefer the smaller door as that helps with the fr.

Hi - I was really intrigued by the title of your post - but then even more by your issue because part of our layout is pretty similar to your plan.

Here are some pictures of our set-up. The family room space is small, and we had to eliminate a planned gas fireplace under the TV, but we're pretty happy on the whole.

Steff--I saw that TV calculator a couple of weeks ago when we started to think about the TV over the fireplace. Changing that door to a single does make a big difference. I need to mock up that pantry. It looks awkward and/or small. I'm sure DH could be convinced to go with the corner pantry layout if we can put some pocket doors on it somehow. He wants it to have a door. I remember seeing a post about the fridge next to ovens. I thought that was frowned on, but many said it can be done nowadays without any problem. There should probably be a spacer in there. Need to check that out.

CP--I did get your e-mail. I'm so sorry I haven't had the chance to write back. I've been thinking about some of your ideas, but had to get these out of my head first.

Shimmerstorm--Whoa, you're right! You have nice, wide aisleway to those back doors. Thank you for posting those. And for telling me that you're pleased with it. It helps me visualize. I love your counterstools! What brand are they? I see another way that our houses are similar. We both have furry blobs taking up floor space!

Breezy- I like your plans...but I would try drawing them with people "sitting" in the chairs and stools at the island. Your clearances look good, but the chairs are pushed up to the table with bench. What if someone is sitting there?

Also, is that the correct dimensions to your table? Do you already have one that size? Will it be enough room to use for eating?

Don't mean to sound negative, but that island (in plan 3) looks custom designed, so if the table and chairs don't fit...the bench is still going to be there...or will it just be a cut out?

I like plan 3, if the clearances will work. Also, you might want to try the same french door and furniture in plan 1 that you have in plan 3 :)

Also, in plan 1, you have a lot more dish storage in the dining room...which could also be pantry storage. Have you thought of putting a baking center or desk, between the ovens and the wall? You could even add another small window. This would give you more counterspace for the kids projects...or baking during the holidays. It would also brighten up the eating area...it's just kind of plunked down there, right now. Just an idea....

Breezy - I was in a bit of a hurry with my posting with the pictures, so should have mentioned that while we decided to stick with the double door to the deck, the couch usually ends up lined up with about the middle of the right hand door. I think my overall dimensions are that the house is 26 feet wide, with the kitchen part being 10 feet wide, then about five feet for the "aisle" and 11 feet for the "family room". We wanted to maintain the double doors partly for the light they allow and partly to have a large opening for bringing large items into the house. We rarely open the right hand door (which is good because the stairs off the deck are just beyond it).

When we entertain, and have company who isn't going to be comfortable on the counterstools (parents and in-laws), I often turn the couch around and have it on a diagonal facing towards the kitchen. I don't have a coffee table there, but use the ottoman with a tray.

I forget the brand name of the counterstools but will look for it. They are "leatherette". The back on them, even though small, makes them quite comfy.

My furry blob is Felix, a Maine Coon, and he loves the heated floors...

Lavender--I know you're not trying to sound negative. You're just trying to make sure I've thought everything through so I end up with a house that works as well as I want it to! I have 60" between island and couch. According to the "Measures and Numbers" section from the "Read Me" thread that should be enough for a passageway. I mocked up 60" and it seems fine. The space will narrow with sitters at the island, but should still be fine.

The furniture in Plan 3 would work in Plan 1.

DH works for a restaurant supply company. The booth fabricator will make the bench to whatever size we need and will be nestled into the island. Table can also be made to our dimensions. The restaurant designer at his office is working up exact measurements for the half-round to make sure 4 eaters will fit. If we have a large gathering in which the table is in the way, it can be moved out.

As far as the baking center or desk you mentioned for Plan 1, that could be. I didn't really know what to do with that corner, but wanted to get the rest of it drawn and posted.

Breezy- Exactly right...thank you for understanding...I want you to end up with a fantastic kitchen! :)

It sounds like the booth and table are going to work out very well. I'm so happy for you and look forward to seeing your progress on the remodel...so, when do you start? Not that I'm trying to rush you! LOL

My new oven doesn't get nearly as hot outside as the old one. Also new technology keeps the temp in the fridge steadier now so there's probably a rethinking of the need for space between the two. You'll want to check your manufacturer's requirements for the two appliances and the code to be sure.

Shimmerstorm does have a good point about keeping the double door. Just push the sofa around when you need access.

Can you flip the pantry and the buffet?

The problem with putting the oven and fridge next to each other is conflicting doors...Or, precisely, the fridge door hitting the oven handle and damaging either or both. Swapping the oven and fridge could help, as long as you get a a single door with left hinge instead of Fr door, and as long as the door could open into the pantry doorway if necessary - to get drawers out for cleaning, etc. It would be opening into the aisle, so no problems about the clearance between it and the island.

Shimmerstorm--Thanks for dimensions. Your area is slightly wider than mine at 24.5". If you can find the name of the stools I would appreciate it. I don't want stools with tall backs that could hit the island or be visually messy, but I don't like backless stools either. I think yours are a great compromise. And you said they're comfy too. That's important. Felix is cute! My cat is just fat, no excuses for his breeding like Felix. We're getting heated floors in our new masterbath. My black blob will love it!

Lavender--Demo is done except for scraping up the old vinyl in the old kitchen. Framing is next! I need to get the pantry situation straightened out first though. Then rough plumbing, rough electrical, HVAC, drywall...gets exciting!

Steff--Good idea check appliance specs. Swapping the pantry and buffet would squeeze the buffet down and not make it accessible from three sides like it is now.

Rhome--You bring up the other reason for not putting ovens by fridge. I'm not sure I would like the ovens closer to the prep zone than the fridge. I like the corner pantry best at this point (need to work out door issue for DH) and that puts ovens on the other side. Fridge hasn't been purchased yet, and as long as the freezer is on the bottom I don't much care about the doors.

You, of course, have a right to have it just the way you want...But if you look at your plan and think of where you'll stand to access the fridge, you're still right near the prep zone if the fridge and oven are swapped, especially with a door that swings out to the left.

I think you mentioned to me previously that your dh hopes for a pocket door on the corner pantry, and you just mentioned that the oven would go on the other side. When you say that, are you meaning a pantry in the corner with the angled front? Just so you know, you need at least 'double the size of the opening, plus one inch' to fit a pocket door frame...In a wall that's straight (obviously) and with no wiring or intersections with other walls in that space. You should be able to do a pocket with the pantry style you show now, but not the 45 degree kind. Maybe you know all this. If so, feel free to ignore me then! :-)

I guess I don't know what I want at this point. ***EXCEPT that we have made the decision to move the kitchen into the upper left corner, narrow the island/cooktop aisle to 42", and arrange furniture as Option 3. I feel very good about that and am excited to get a fabulous kitchen with so much of my wish list fulfilled and have a good family room that will work for us.

The corner with pantry, ovens, and fridge need to be worked out. I like the idea of a corner pantry better, but am now convinced it needs a door. I'll do the traditionally framed door if necessary (not my favorite look somehow with the drywall showing around the door), but Plllog had an idea of a different way to do it. DH says he was trying to tell me the same idea as hers, but that I wouldn't listen. Hmmmmm.

Here's what Plllog wrote on my Doorless Pantry thread:

"Turning the studs sideways is something I learned from contractors. If your wall must be built from 2x4 studs (something I think you want for holding up your shelves), it doesn't mean that they have to go in with the narrow edge to the drywall. If you turn them so that the wide edge is to the drywall you gain an inch and a half.
I don't know if this would work in real life, but what I have in mind is to do the narrower partial walls to frame in the pantry, with a narrow channel and a back board on the kitchen side to hold the wall board. You might have to steal an inch from the pantry, but quite possibly not. Inside this channel would be cabinet style, 3/4" or 1" thick cabinet style doors on the kinds of rails with pivots that are used on entertainment center cabinets.

The doors would stick out a couple of inches, but they'd be mostly out of the way when retracted. You'd also need to put stops on the header. But you wouldn't need a door frame."

What do you think of that?

Here is a link that might be useful: Doorless pantry thread

The other way to do the pantry would be like Bmore drew it on my other pantry thread entitled "How wide is door on your small corner pantry." I'm not sure I like how far it it comes in to the aisle though.

Here is a link that might be useful: How wide is door on your small corner pantry?

Hi Breezy - you're making some decisions and that's progress! About the 36" aisle that you label as a "pinch point", I don't think 36" is tight in and of itself (we actually have less than that in a couple places where there's an architectural wall protrusion at each end of our island that narrows the aisle to 32" for a few inches). Sometimes it's a little jammed (in our case, with a bunch of adults at the island seating end, which is where we put snacks usually). But in your case, with the oven being there next to the pantry as you show in your last plan, well that could really jam up that corner of the kitchen.

Have you thought about the possibility of turning the pantry against your left wall? Then I would consider putting the fridge down at the bottom of the kitchen. Keep the ovens where they are. Like everything, some pros/cons:
PANTRY: CON: you'd have the same issue with it needing to come into the main kitchen aisle several inches, to get the room you want in there. PRO: But you'd be using that space out of your 48" aisle, and not the 44" (although one of your recent posts said you're going down to 42"?) And it still gives you some door options (30" opening on my barely legible plan here)
OVENS: PRO: gets you some landing room to the right of them, instead of the fridge being there, which I think is super important.
FRIDGE: at the bottom of your kitchen, may be a new loop for you...but (if you remember) the photo you saw of our fridge, that's how we have it (only at the top end of our kitchen). CON: it's away from your main cook/prep zone. PRO: kids can get in/out of it without being in your way, AND biggest PRO (for me) is that it gives your ovens that landing room. Even with just 2 people in our home, the fridge gets opened far more than the oven, and it works well for it to be on its own. I know you mentioned your only fridge spec was a bottom freezer, and if you got one that opened from the right you wouldn't hit the pantry wall (Or, if you can squeeze a foot of space in between the pantry and fridge, a French Door would be best for this placement so people could EASILY get by when doors are open).

Overall, it gets your food all together at that end, so when you come into the house with groceries - some for the pantry, some for the fridge - you use your island as the drop zone, and load things in to both from there.

Ok, I am NOT a floorplan person (nor do I have a scanner), but here it is to the best of my abilities:

I forgot about the suggestion Plllog made. Seems it could work. But I was wondering if you were considering changing the style/shape of the pantry...I wasn't sure from what you were saying.

I'm not worried about the 36" being tight in Bmore's drawing. Have you seen the photos of my 36" aisle?

Isle2isle--yes! Decisions are being made! Now to figure out the corner. The island/cooktop aisle will be 42" NOT 48". That allows more FR space.

I hadn't thought about turning the pantry that way. I'm not sure I want the fridge there, but I can see the advantage of it also like you mentioned. I'll have to draw it out on my own with the 42" aisle and see what it looks like. I appreciate you drawing, photographing, and posting!

Rhome--You know more about framing and construction than I do. You think Plllog's idea will work? As far as the style and shape of the pantry, I would prefer the corner pantry as it seems the best use of the corner, but it needs to have doors. My ideal choice would be to do doors in the corner without having to frame it traditionally and lose another foot of counter and cab space for the framing. I'm open to the pantry being someplace else as long as it can have a door; the resulting flow is functional; and I don't have to loose much more counter and cab space. Does that make sense?

I have seen your 36" aisle, but I wasn't paying attention when I saw it because it wasn't an issue for me then. Silly me.

Well, you can see it again, now that it might matter! :-) I don't ever consider it a 'pinch point' in our kitchen, as in I never consider it too tight or crowded for people to get through or past each other, even if I'm working there. And yours would be much shorter, and not a work spot.

Rhome--Love your dogs and the kids, BTW. Don't get to see them in pics often. Sooooo......where is the pinch point cuz I don't see it!

Bumping for Rhome.

It is 36" between the island and the rangetop. So all along that side of the island is the width of the 'pinch point' on that corner of the pantry in Bmore's plan. So you'll only have that at the corner of the island, where we have it for 4 ft along that end. I hope that makes sense.

I get it. Your pics certainly make tha aisle look wider than 36". I'll try to mock it up at the house tomorrow and see how it feels. Thanks!