lavendar_lass: The solarium sold us on the house (because it sure wasn't the kitchen). It has three walls of windows and where DH and I have breakfast many mornings. I plan on posting the layout with the table in a few hours.

scapbookheaven: The pantry is awkward, but we haven't come up with a better solution. How would you frame in the new door? The current opening is 24" which is wide enough to step in and open the door.

cpartist: The mudroom is 10X7. There are two small windows- one next to the door out to the deck and another on the opposite wall (behind the door). We're pretty sure the wall between the kitchen and mudroom with the chimney stack is load bearing, but if there is a better layout to be gained, it's something to further explore (costs, risk). I've already identified a structural engineer.

buehl: Now that is a radical idea! Unfortunately the butler's pantry sits right below the stairs and the ceiling is only 7ft,6in. Also, the space is really more like a wide hallway that happens to have great storage and serving space and an extra clean up zone. It was intriguing until I went and measured the ceiling and stood in the space!

Do you think if you eliminated all upper cabinets that it would open it up enough to give it an open feel? The lower ceilings might not be an issue if there are no upper cabinets.... Just trying to see if there's any way to make it work.

I was envisioning a great space where your current kitchen is...table & chairs with plenty of room around them and a Snack Center where the chimney is (and no need to remove it). There might have been room for 12" deep pantry cabinets along the wall opposite the Snack Center.

Then in the old BP/New Kitchen, I envisioned the Cleanup Zone on the outside wall with the possibility of putting a pass through from the kitchen to the deck at one of the windows. You could open the window and stage food, drinks, etc. It would have a DW, set of Dish Drawers, sink, and drawer base cabinets for dishes, glasses, silverware, etc.

The Prep & Cooking Zones would be on the opposite wall, with, a prep sink, cooktop, ovens, & refrigerator. The cabinets on this side would house your prep & cooking tools/dishes/utensils, cutting boards, pots & pans, etc.

It seemed like such a perfect way to save your table with plenty of space and get a functional kitchen w/plenty of prep, cooking, and cleanup space!

I was so excited about the idea that I drew most of it up b/f you had replied...here is what I came up with. Note that I did not have some measurements so I "guessed". If it doesn't work, it doesn't work...at least we tried!

Butler's Pantry as Kitchen:

....

Old Kitchen as Snack Center & Table Space with some pantry storage

buehl: Sorry for the delay. I've started holiday travel and Internet access has been sketchy. That is really creative layout, but I don't think it's going to work. Where we have the built-ins is the side of the butler?s pantry that is under the stairs to the second floor and that part of the ceiling is slanted. I don't think we could fit a full height fridge in the space and it would be a head banger to work on that side. The built-ins are great for storage and that side of the pantry is great for staging for big parties or buffet serving, but it wouldn?t work for day to day cooking/food prep. Also, I?d want people to be able to hang out with the cook and we wouldn?t be able to do that if we're cooking in the butler's pantry (no seating in the space). Thanks for trying. I really appreciate it. Any thoughts on how we could incorporate the mudroom into the kitchen? I'd like to leave the rangetop where it is for venting purposes.

I'll see if I can play with the mudroom later tonight. If not today I'll try tomorrow and if not tomorrow, definitely next week after I'm moved into my winter place. :)

**The narrow doorway to the far left of the sink is a pantry. We explored closing off the pantry, but there is a large old pipe in the closet and since this is the only way to get to it, we're concerned about losing access to it.**

Why not just create a door to the pantry from the hallway, and keep both access to the pipe AND your pantry, while creating room in the kitchen for more counter space and storage? Putting the entrance to the pantry in the hall would probably only affect convenient access very negligeably if at all, while improving things in the kitchen a whole lot. And if you're okay with the width of the door, you could just salvage the woodwork that's there right now and move it from the kitchen to the hall. If you'd like it wider, it's not hard to find period-appropriate woodwork to put around the new pantry door.

cpartist: I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

I appreciate the creative thinking on from everyone on our layout.

PS And if your real pantry is the butler's pantry, and you only really want to keep that kitchen pantry for access to the pipe, just create an access panel to the pipe in whatever other wall is most convenient. Your husband's an engineer, he can figure out what needs to be done.

Either way, the point of getting rid of that door and extending the counter and cabinets to the wall that is currently blighted by the pantry door is this. It would give you more prep space and storage space, which would mean your spot beside the sink wouldn't be all you had, so it would be no problem to move the dishwasher over to the other side of the sink.

Ok, I think you will start to see better solutions if you start to think in terms of "what can be moved" instead of "what can't." For example:

The chimney stack can be moved. A pain? Probably, but it's a one-time pain, as opposed to the lasting pain of having a sucky kitchen. Get an engineer in to see how to do it and how much it would cost.

The laundry chute can probably be moved. I say "probably" because I don't know what's on the floor above it--I am assuming it extends to the next floor up, right? If not, it can definitely be moved. Moving it may require changing which upstairs room you can access it from--but surely doing that is preferable to having a kitchen with workspace, storage and obstacle problems.

The door to the little pantry with the pipe can be moved if either of these two things happens: (1) you move the laundry chute, or (2) you ditch that pantry and just install an access panel to it in, say, the powder room. And without measurements I can't be sure, but perhaps it could even be moved without moving the laundry chute.

The mudroom door can be moved if you remove the chimney stack, and in reality it could also be eliminated without touching the chimney stack. People could go to and from the mudroom via the deck. Yes, that would break the flow from the mudroom to the kitchen, but how much do you care about that flow? Is it more important than having a really functional kitchen?

So all of these things CAN be done. They simply present different pros and cons. It's up to you to figure out which pros and cons are the most important. Once you've figured that out--which you won't be able to do until you've figured out how much expense and hassle is involved in moving the chimney stack--then you will know what to do with your kitchen. Making a great kitchen in this house is going to involve changing something else (the pantry, the chimney stack, the mudroom, the laundry chute...). You just have to choose which one to change.

When I said you could possibly move the pantry door without moving the laundry chute, I meant there may be an ingenious way to fit the door in the hallway, and if not, then you could repurpose the pantry into a non-food pantry--like a storage area for bulk paper towels, toilet paper, vacuum cleaner etc.--and enter it from the powder room. Slightly inconvenient? Maybe, but far less inconvenient far less often than dealing with that kitchen every single day. It just looks like your kitchen needs counter space and storage more than it needs a door to a little pantry with a pipe in it.

South- If budget is fairly tight (no extra money for more wall changes, etc.) then I think your kitchen with counter height table will be fine.

However, if you have a little more money...I would want to open the kitchen to the mudroom. At first, I was thinking of taking out the chimney and making one big space (typical remodel) but then I thought...what if we kept the chimney and used it in the space?

What does the chimney look like? Is it brick...how good a shape is it in? Even if it isn't functional, it would make a great feature in your kitchen...especially for an older house.

If you would be willing to consider this...this is what I would do. I'd take out the big windows in the kitchen and move the sink wall to that side of the room. I would put a big window above the sink (4' - 5' wide) and keep the range where it is, but move the double ovens to the wall against the little pantry. I'd put the counter depth fridge at the end of the sink counter, towards the mud room.

Then, I would open up both sides of the chimney (there should be 3' on either side, even with the fridge) and make this a through space to the mudroom.

Back in the kitchen, I would put nothing where the sink is now, leave it a walkway and put in an island that runs parallel with the sink wall (under the window) and have stools. This way, people at the island have a view out the big kitchen window (maybe a bay or garden window). If you don't need the storage, then you could use the counter height table.

In the mudroom, if there's space, I'd love to see a banquette, maybe with a table...kind of a breakfast room/craft area, but still have some built in storage by the door, for boots, coat hooks, etc. Banquettes are nice, because you get more storage.

The little pantry I would open to the hall and take out the laundry chute. If you love the chute, then make it a closet with a laundry chute and don't use it as a pantry. Of course, I haven't seen the pantry, but it looks really small with the chute...and you have that beautiful butler's pantry. You can also have more storage in the kitchen, if necessary, by using the island.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but I have no software :( Anyway, I think exposing the chimney on both sides, with doorways on either side, would look very cool and really play up the character of your older home. Whether you go with an island or table, is up to you...and I don't know the dimensions of your mud room...but some kind of table or seating, along with the storage, would really take advantage of all your space!

ideagirl: You are so right. All of these options are pros/cons so I shouldn't say what "can't" be done. We just have to decide what makes sense for our circumstances. We would love to do many of the things suggested for the kitchen to maximize the function, but we have made certain decisions based on what's right for the house, how we use the kitchen and what we want to accomplish and, of course, budget.

lavender_lass: I know I sound like a broken record, but we considered changing the windows early on. After much discussion about what we want to accomplish with this remodel, we concluded that we want to improve the home without changing its overall character. We really consider ourselves caretakers of the house so we walked away from changing the windows (they are 96" tall and are beautiful!) even though putting the sink on that wall would be a great layout.

The feedback we've gotten so far has been very helpful. At this point, closing off the pantry and opening up the mudroom are two changes that we're seriously considering. You all have pointed out various options we'll consider. Until we get a structural engineer in to tell us what our options are on the chimney stack (which will be late next week at the earliest), we'll work on the extra 24" we just found and how we would use the mudroom!

For starters, how would you use the 24"? I would think I could use 15 or 18 of those inches for a pullout trash, which is great. What about the uppers? Would you center the rangetop on the wall or keep the valuable prep space on the right of the range and throw symmetry out the window? Could we do open shelving? Is there room for a prep sink? If so, what size and where would you put it? How exciting!

Ok your downstairs layout didn't match your kitchen plan exactly so I'm somewhat surmising. What I did is eliminate the entry to the mudroom and instead added two windows at either end for light. The entry from the deck is now the one entry and it enters into what was a pantry area before the butler's pantry. That area is now the new mudroom with hanging/cubbies on the wall opposite the door.

Most of the working kitchen is now in the mudroom area in a U shaped layout. This actually is a good working layout for the space you have. It also gives you space for your table, plus double ovens, a mw within the workspace, and a huge buffet/pantry on the opposite side of the kitchen. I left the original pantry in the corner and didn't change any other doors.

This may still not be ideal, but hopefully it will spark other ideas either by yourself or others. The beauty of this is that your floor is preserved and the space is wide open. You have 6' + of counter space on the wall with the MW/fridge. Great for prep. Plus a full range with double ovens. Or if you prefer a 36" cooktop with the double ovens. If you do the cooktop then that gives you even more storage under the cooktop. Great for storing those pots/pans.

First the room layout:

Now the kitchen:

cpartist: This is a very interesting option and one we had not considered. The first question is can we take down the wall between the kitchen and mudroom? If we can, how much will that cost? If it's cost effective, does the overall flow still work for us and do we want to lose much of the function of our mudroom, including have a separate space to bring in 2 large muddy/wet dogs and feeding them. Even if we don't put the entire kitchen in the mudroom, are there other benefits to opening up the wall?

You've really opened up our eyes to possibilities worth further exploration. The first order of business is to find out if the wall can come down. As I said in a previous post, it will be late next week before we'll have an answer to that question. I appreciate your effort and I'll post again when I know more.

I know that I've had bearing walls taken down and the cost is probably less then you think. For a 8' wall, I believe we had a wall taken down and a header put up for I believe under $1500. BTW: That was on Long Island about 5 or 6 years ago.

I can't answer about the muddy dogs in terms of how bad it would be to come into a smaller mudroom by the butler's pantry, but as for feeding the dogs, you could even leave a space under the new buffet in the kitchen for the dog's bowls.

To me, a workable kitchen would be most important and while you've worked in the space and gotten used to it, there is nothing better than coming into a workable kitchen, reaching down to open a drawer, pull out exactly what you need, and not have to waste steps. Of course, I personally could use more wasted steps. It might help my waist!

in this layout, I'd put the toaster by the MW and maybe add a water line near the ovens and put your coffee center over there. Then it's just a short walk to the sink in the butler's pantry to clean out the coffee pot and the coffee is out of the work center. I'd also consider putting things like cereal, cookies, etc in the cabs by the ovens. This way the kids or DH can come, get themselves cookies, or cereal, get the milk out of the fridge and never enter the work area.

Could you possibly post some photos of your current space to supplement the floor plans? It seems like there are so many unique features to this house that deserve consideration in your planning (the wonderful tall windows, the odd low and slanted ceiling, the built-ins, the chimney stack...), and many of these don't come across well in the drawings. These things keep popping up in the discussion as barriers, and they are clearly important to think about, but it's difficult to picture them with the standard floorplan renderings. I think it would help many of us here to appreciate the features you're trying to preserve and those you need to work around if we could see them. Perhaps photos of the affected exterior areas would be helpful, as well.

holligator: Here are a few pictures.

96" windows. Our ceilings are 11'.

Door to mudroom on right, door to deck on left, shot of bumpout (you can see the white trim on left of fridge).

Entry to butler's pantry on right, door to hallway on left, shot of launtry chute on left. The door to the food pantry is in the kitchen to the left of this view.

Butler's pantry (sloped ceiling on right). You can see the door to the deck in this shot, a good shot of the recently discovered hardwood floors:

Shot of mudroom with large built-in and a cameo by our Goldendoodle rescue, Ella. The room is about 10X7 but I couldn't get a good shot.

And why we may need a bigger mudroom. Ella and Hugo.

So I didn't realize how bad the wallpaper was until I saw these pictures. It's pretty bad. Suffice it to say we're excited to get a more functional (and beautiful) kitchen.

I like CpArtist's ideas with one exception...the location of the new mudroom. I would not want to have to go through it to get to the BP or the DR. A mudroom, to me, should be a separate place for dirty dogs :-), boots/coats/etc. That separation should keep them out of the way. I would not want to be dodging boots, etc. while taking food & dishes to/from the DR, BP, and, possibly, the LR.

If your budget was "unlimited", I'd suggest moving the PR down to where the Den is, moving the kitchen down into that vacated space (PR + Pantry + Den space leftover), switching the DR & LR, putting the Den in part of the Mudroom, and creating a good-sized pantry where the BP is. Just off the top of my head! (LOL! If money were no object, you could redo the entire first floor to be "perfect"! Don't we all wish?!!)

Here's an exterior shot of the house. No shots of the kitchen side from the outside.

buehl: When I tell my DH of your suggestion to remodel the entire first floor, he may ban me from GW! I like cpartist's idea of moving the kitchen into the mudroom, but placing the new mudroom between the kitchen and DR does interrupt the flow between those two rooms. If the two pantries are deep enough to store our shoes/boots/doggie gear (and I don't know if they are), we could possibly keep the hallway clear of obstruction (but is that wishful thinking??!!) But flow is one of the key factors we'll have to evaluate with that layout.

South- I like the windows...and they're not as low as I thought. Nice 11' ceilings :)

If you're thinking about closing off the little pantry, what if you move the range wall down, get a large range with two ovens, and move the fridge into the corner (where the ovens are now? Leave the sink on the wall to the basement stairs and put your table in front of the windows.

I still like the idea of exposing the brick (?) fireplace and giving the room more character. Something to play off those windows and ceiling! You're right...the wallpaper probably won't be missed :)

The mudroom is smaller than I had thought, so probably leaving it a mudroom with lots of storage (maybe some cubbies?) would be great. Have you checked out Red's post on the Building a Home forum? She has a mudroom post (first page) that is just beautifully designed by one of the members.

The butlers pantry looks like a good space and while I agree ideally you don't want a mudroom between the BP and the kitchen, I can't see where else to put one. As for storage in the mudroom, I'd make a lift top bench. Easy then to throw the boots, etc in, and then hooks above for coats, leashes, etc. Baskets on top for things like hats, gloves, etc. Gives you a place to pull the boots out of and then sit down to get them on/off.

Gorgeous dogs btw. And i love your house. How tall are the ceilings in the mudroom?

lavender: We've already purchased our appliances so we have to work with the DO and rangetop. Plus, one benefit of the fridge location is the fact that it is outside of the cooking zone. I'll check out the building forum site on the mudroom layout you referenced.

cpartist: The ceiling in the mudroom is 8 feet tall.

I was looking at houzz.com and found this about mudrooms. Thought you might be interested.

Here is a link that might be useful: [mudroom ideas[(https://www.houzz.com/magazine/12-ways-to-weather-a-messy-winter-stsetivw-vs~154500)

Can you move the door to the mudroom from the right side of the refrigerator to the left side of the refrigerator?

Cute pups! I see why you need to keep the mudroom. And now that I see your first floor plan, I also see why my idea of eliminating the mudroom door and going in and out the same doorway as you'd use to go to the deck won't work. The hallway that I thought was there from kitchen to deck doesn't exist.

However, I think you could still get rid of one of those doorways by moving the mudroom doorway to the other side of the fireplace stack and eliminating the door to the deck, in an arrangement not that different from what you have in your DR/solarium. This moves the doorway to an area that is basically wasted, at least it is in your plan posted above. It also allows you to add more cabs and counter on the fridge wall, all the way to the window wall. You might not even need a door to the mudroom, just an opening. And maybe you can extend cabs and counters down the wall a bit in your butler's pantry? I'm having a hard time correlating your drawing to the photos. It looks like you could extend BP cabs down the wall in your drawing but not so in your photos.

You may also gain more usable space in your mudroom since you've now directed all traffic to one end and not through the space. And if you can add shallow pantry storage in the mudroom up against the fridge wall, you could eliminate the existing pantry (while keeping plumbing access) and extend counter to the corner on the range wall.

It's not as grand a plan as those posted by others but since it doesn't require removing walls, it should cost less while giving you a functional kitchen that honors your home's past.

Wish I could remember how to draw this out for you using Paint. Rhome showed me some time ago but I can't remember how I did it or even where I hid the program. But hopefully you understand my suggestions without a drawing.

I love the look of old brick incorporated into kitchens, especially in a home as old as yours, so I'd say normally say keep the chimney stack but it does seem like doing so throws your kitchen plans for a loop.

Would it be possible to "steal" space on the deck to enclose it and create a new Mudroom that opened into the "hall" b/w the BP and Kitchen?

LOL. I was just coming to ask the same thing as buehl. :)

Here's one more set.

Here is a link that might be useful: [more mudrooms[(https://www.houzz.com/magazine/mudrooms-ideas-for-the-hardest-working-room-in-the-house-stsetivw-vs~135905)

Here's another one

Here is a link that might be useful: Last one

dekeoboe, lisa_a: Good idea switching the MR door to the other side of the fridge and getting rid of the extra door. We'll add that to the possibilities to discuss with the structural engineer.

buehl, cpartist: Closing in the deck is a great suggestion; however, DH has made it clear that adding on or modifying the exterior to the house is a non-starter. I think he's right that we should be able to find a layout that works for us in the current footprint of the house. He's on board with bringing in the structural engineer to talk about the wall between the MR and kitchen, but that's as far as he's willing to go. And I agree with him that finding a better layout (even if not the best) should be possible in our current footprint. And cpartist, thanks for the link to the Houzz site.

I am chiming in late but I also have an older 1850 home that I absolutely adore and respect so I can very much relate to where your heart is coming from. My kitchen has five of its own doors to various places in the house plus an added feature of a wall with baseboard heat. Add in two kids and two dogs and it has a LOT going on in a little bit of space!

From reading your OP, I think you want to the best kitchen possible without re-arranging the entire first floor but are open to suggestions that could give you the best of both worlds. You do not say whether this project will be a DIY, contracted out, or a bit of both but I suspect either way your DH is worried about "issues" that may creep up and what they will end up costing in terms of major time, money, and headache! Any old house is a betting game of what you will come up against when you decide to renovate because everything that was used to build it was hand fabricated and industry standards were regional depending on the skills of the builder. If you have ever renovated an "antique" home you know that your proposed plan may very well end up un-recognizable unless money is not an issue and you are contracting it out.

I have gotten to the point now (my third older home) I no longer get my heart set on any one design until AFTER I see what I�m dealing with in terms of scope and money. Some things are just way too costly and set off a chain reaction of other costly projects that you never EVER intended on doing but now have to. Not trying to discourage you, but the reality is there and sometimes you may just be happier making a few small changes without putting your beautiful lady under the knife. Think of plastic surgery, sometimes one procedure can lead to another and before you know it Grandma is no longer recognizable! Older "ladies" shouldn�t try change themselves completely in order to compete with the younger lady down the road. Their features are unique and beautiful on their own. Just some thoughts to consider. Of course, I am not saying Grandma shouldn�t try to look her best and stay current!
=) �

Some thoughts and questions I have for you are:
How high off the floor are your windowsills? Could you flank that wall with built in storage and/or turn it into window seating with a regular height table as sort of a banquet? Growing up we lived in an Eastlake victorian with no modern kitchen conveniences so we prepped at the table or hung out there while mom prepped.

Have you considered moving the DWO�s by your cooktop up next to your fridge /freezer section and moving them both to the wall that has the BB cab and shelving and push your cook top down closer to the window wall? You would gain 33" of straight prep and countertop on one side of the cook top closer to the new DWO location? This would also shorten up the fridge area and still not have you mess with the chimney bump out creating a more functional L. I...

I agree with never_ending and your DH - in your huge and really gorgeous house, if I may say so, you should be able to find a workable kitchen with out flipping the house. I actually rather liked buehl's and cpartist's layouts quite a bit modulo a couple of things (wouldn't consider losing the butler's pantry for one thing), but I do see that you really do need your mudroom. Well, those two gorgeous fuzzy faces do at any rate.

As for windows, I'm in the school of thought that says windows should only get bigger and more numerous - not less. ;-) Plus with older houses, changing a facade can be a not so pleasant concept. Besides, there's nothing like the original windows so I, too, would want to keep them.

However, the fact is that what is keeping you from already having a very workable kitchen is (a) the many doors into the room, leading to (b) several small segments of wall against which all kitchen fittings must go because (c) the floors that are not to be touched.

Compound this with the fact that you actually have a pretty huge room 12ft x 18ft it means that to go from fridge to stove you have to walk 18feet across the room (one way). Speaking of unsafe practices in the kitchen, walking this much around the kitchen is up there. In my remodeled kitchen (10+ft x 14ft), our aisles are 6ft with the sink/stove on one wall and the stove across the aisle. That 6ft crossing can become tiring when you're really working - so your 14 feet (18 - 4) could become quite something!

So there is a place where I think you need to consider what you can and can't consider modifying.

For me, two things come to mind: (1a) close off the passage way to the front hallway, (1b) give up the larder next to that walkway) because you've got another two en route to the Butler's Pantry and you can still provide access to whatever plumbing it is you need access to - either with an access panel or something else. (2) consider moving the door to the mudroom to the other side of the fireplace stack. That way you have another contiguous block of space along the mudroom wall from the outside to the new door. You can have fridge, pull-out pantry or breakfast specific items or even your ovens and baking paraphernalia housed there Or maybe just the tall items - ovens and fridge!

You'll have an ell shaped workspace on the other 2 sides with your table and chairs in the center which should be much more workable.

IMO, it's pointless trying to draft a proper layout without figuring out what changes or mods are workable and what aren't so I'm not bothering to try.

Good luck. You have a gorgeous house. I love high ceilings and huge windows - I considered myself lucky with our (almost) 10foot ceilings (9ft 9"!) but count me green with envy at your 11footers. And tall windows! - the windows in the living areas of my house are over 6 feet tall and they are the reason I bought and love our resplendent old house. So I agree with you and with...

Mindstorm made a good suggestion: check out histokitch's finished kitchen (link below). Here's a photo to tease you.

Her kitchen has sloped ceilings similar to what you have in your BP. You don't have skylights (and can't add them, correct?) but it looks like you have at least one window so you might be able to emulate the open feel of her kitchen despite its low ceiling.

Here is a link that might be useful: Histokitch's finished kitchen

I was snooping through the design portfolio of Peggy Deras, a SF-area CKD and spotted a photo with a range against a tile wall that juts out into the room. It sparked an idea for a way for you to retain the chimney stack and make it a feature of the kitchen.

{{gwi:2109956}}

You'd have to move the range and venting, which is an added cost, but perhaps less than removing the chimney stack. I looked at your initial plan and think it might be doable but you'd need to draw it up and see what you think.

Just a few photos farther into her portfolio and I found another example of the same idea.

{{gwi:2109957}}

never_ending: You clearly speak from experience! We are definitely being challenged on this forum but I'm confident we'll end up with the best layout considering all of the circumstances. We want to do a bit more exploration of the wall between the kitchen and mudroom. Based on the feedback we've gotten so far, we'll likely close off the food pantry which will add at least 24" to the range wall. I'm also going to call the appliance store to see how flexible the appliances we've already purchased. Who knows, maybe they'll let us switch them out. The laundry is currently in the basement but we?re exploring putting in a second floor laundry. (DH has promised the second floor laundry costs won't come out of our kitchen remodel budget.) So the replies to the original layout are challenging our thinking but as our cabinet guy says "it's free to do it now."

mindstorm: The kitchen is a good size and if we were putting in an island, it would be much more efficient. The walk from the fridge to the stove is a hump, but that's the distance I walk today so I'm used to it. I don't see it as much of a safety issue. We're open to making it better, though, so like never_ending, I'm willing to learn new habits. We don't want to close off the front hallway because it's key to the flow of the home (allos access to kitchen from both side of the house).
lisa_a: Thanks for sharing links to histokitch and willowdecor's kitchens. I admire both kitchens. I'm also going to explore the designer's blog. I really like the idea of the exposed brick and hood. lavender_lass has already suggested exposing the brick on the bumpout and if we can get more space on that side of the kitchen, putting the hood on that wall would be an awesome feature.

So. . . I'm going to try not obsessing over the layout until we know more about the mudroom wall, but I
m already working on options. (It's really hard not to think of the possibilities!)

I hope everyone had a great holiday. I'll keep you posted.

I saw this island and thought of you! Sadly you have to scroll down to the William MacDonald Kitchen Gallery but his last two pictures were reminiscent of my thoughts for your kitchen. Keep us posted! =)

Here is a link that might be useful: William Macdonald red island

I finally made it back home after holiday travels and DH and I talked quite a bit about the suggestions to put the kitchen in the mudroom, close off the food pantry and switch the door to the MR to the other side of the bump out.

never_ending thanks for posting links to that island. That is a gorgeous red island, but we're committed to the counter height table. The more I think about a sink in the island, the more I realize it wouldn't be the best layout for how we use our kitchen.

Switching the MR and kitchen is intriguing but simply put, that is more than we're willing to take on. never_ending said it very well that we're looking for the best kitchen without remodling the first floor. There is quite a bit more to do to this house over the next few years that are expensive projects (to name a few: roof, carriage house, landscaping ,oh and we're still sitting on grad school furniture!) not including the cost of general maintenance, that we have to keep the kitchen budget in check. I appreciate the creative thinking and boy did it spark spirited holiday discussion, but it's not where we can or think we need to go with the kitchen remodel.

We took a long look at the wall between the MR and kitchen once we got home (I posted earlier while at the in-laws). We realized the other side of the fireplace bump out is actually the outside wall that houses the door to the MR from the deck. My lunchtime drawing of the first floor layout is a bit misleading in that respect. It's clear we could not switch the door in the kitchen to the other side of the bump out without moving the outside wall. While we're not structural engineers, it's pretty obvious from the thickness of the walls and door locations. We concluded that modifying two walls in this house isn't a project we're willing to take on- not just because of the potential costs but because of the unknowns once we open up these walls.

Based on forum feedback though we have made some changes that increase the countertop on the range wall. First, we have decided to close off the food pantry. That gives us an additional 29" on the range wall (more than I initially thought). Second, we called the appliance store and found out we can exchange the rangetop and DO to a free standing range and a second oven. We are okay compromising on the appliances to gain the additional countertop space. We'll put the second oven (to be used for holidays and large parties) in the butler's pantry. This gives us an additional 33". So with these two changes alone we have gained an additional 62" on the range wall. Now this may vary by an inch or two once we talk to our cabinet guy (not sure if we'll need any fillers) but that won't radically change the revised layout.

So here is how we used the additional inches and the other changes we've made to resolve some of the other issues pointed out in my earlier post.
1- We centered the range on the wall, and divided the remaining space on...

Not to upend your plans, but I did want to point out that people do often use window walls like yours for sinks and prep. I've seen houses with tall Victorian windows sporting sinks like this:

{{!gwi}}

as well as countertops over open spaces, such as the one in Casey's kitchen.

A certain amount of disguise is required so that people looking in don't see anything truly unsightly like exposed plumbing, but that is a small matter to take care of compared to knocking down walls or whatever.

Also, reading this thread, I would strongly urge you to start getting actual prices of things before deciding this or that is "too much" or "too expensive." Building a mudroom over Sonotubes or removing a brick chimney can be at a significantly different price point than you imagine. (I was shocked to get such low estimates for removing a chimney from a Victorian once--they just knock the bricks into the chimney, and it actually cost more to haul the bricks away.) Otherwise you're going to be ruling out some important options for no reason, as well as heading into some nasty sticker shocks on fixes you thought would be cheap.

South- I'm glad you're not changing too much about the old house, although I still think exposing the chimney (if it's in good enough shape) would look great in your kitchen :)

I've lost track of all the suggestions...but one other idea. Could you put the double ovens with small cabinet area next to it, against the chimney? The fridge on the 'now' sink wall and the sink and cooktop, together, on the long wall?

Now that it's longer (and I really like that you made that change with the pantry) it might be much easier to prep and cook with the sink and cooktop closer together. The fridge could have the microwave next to it, if there's room.

I love to bake, but I still use my oven the least of all my appliances, so why not put it the furthest from 'the action'? The fridge and microwave would make their own area, between the butler's pantry and the hall entrance...and the main cooking/cleaning area would all be together.

Best of all, no unfortunate pasta accidents! Always something to be aware of, when there's a walkway between the cooktop and sink!

I like the counter height table and chairs, love the windows and hope you can show off the chimney. If not, it will still be a beautiful kitchen :)

I am not a kitchen layout wizard (which is why I am here =D ) but I think you have made tremendous gains and I am envious of the runs of counter space!!!!

Switching to a range with an extra WO is a terrific compromise. Loving and living in an old house is a challenge. I didn't mean to scare you off but like you, I have other places for my money to go, and sometimes regular maintenance, restoration, and household emergencies can be enough with older homes without looking for extra projects.

You seem at peace with your decision and I think you've made some good choices of do-able but definitely "game changing" additions. I can't wait to see it come to be! What are you leaning towards for cabinets?

South- I just saw your prep sink...sorry, I need to read these posts more carefully! Does this mean you've decided not to use the double ovens?

Here's a rough draft of what I was trying to describe. The ovens and cabinet against the chimney and the fridge and cabinets (with microwave) against the stairs.

The other wall (from bottom to top) is 18" prep space, 36" cooktop (with drawers underneath), the dishwasher, the sink, the trash and more prep area...with plenty of upper cabinets. What do you think?

{{gwi:2109959}}

Love seeing your old kitchen. Great quirky space. Good compromise only to do away with the pantry. I like the wallpaper!

marcolo: Thanks for posting the pic of the vintage sink and the sink in casey's kitchen. Those are creative solutions, but we don't want to block our windows in the kitchen. In the butler's pantry, we are running the countertop across the window, but anticipate we'll replace those windows down the road as a part of a larger deck renovation. We have gotten estimates for the work to be done on our renovation. We have just decided not to move any walls or doors for fear there are hidden surprises that will blow our budget. No one can tell us what's behind any of our walls, despite their best estimates, and with a limited budget and many years of home improvement projects ahead of us, we are deciding not to go down that path. We know we may be sacrificing the most efficient layout with our decisions and constraints, but we're okay with that.

lavender_lass: We have decided to go with a range and separate wall oven instead of the rangetop and DO, but thanks for the revised layout. It would still work with a range and we actually looked at that. We think, though, we'd prefer to have the uninterrupted countertop right of the stove and deal with the hike to the fridge. I'm a recipe cook so I get out everything out I need and only make limited trips back to the fridge. We'd love to expose the brick underneath the plaster, but we need to slide the fridge over towards the MR door to alleviate the pinch point with the sink wall. So unfortunately the fridge won't be centered on the bumpout. Any suggestions on how we could still make that wall a focal point?

never_ending: We are going with Mouser Custom Cabinetry, the Sonoma door style, beaded inset, painted in creamy white (haven't picked out exact color yet).

onedogedie: The PO were kind enough to leave an extra roll of that wallpaper for us. We've offered it to several friends as a vintage Christmas gift. No takers yet.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on the layout so far.

South- I'm glad you're keeping the wall ovens...I love having a raised oven! So much easier for baking.

As for the chimney, I say if the brick is in good shape, go for it! Even if the fridge isn't centered on the chimney, it will still look wonderful. Your table isn't centered on the windows, you have a rectangular entrance from the hall and an arch from the pantry, and the door to the mudroom isn't balanced on the other side of the chimney. These are typical features of an old house and part of its charm! Scoot the fridge over as far as you need to...and I still think it will be an amazing kitchen :)

Do you have any plans for the walls, once the wallpaper is gone? Are you putting beadboard or wainscoating part way up? They're such lovely, tall walls...you have so many possibilities. You could even do a wall treatment, 3/4 of way up in the butler's pantry...and then continue it out into the kitchen.

I'm sure you've mentioned this, but (long post) what type of countertops/backsplash are you planning to use, with your creamy white cabinets? (I love creamy white, too.) Sounds like you have the plan in place, so now I'm curious about details! LOL

Have a great day and keep us informed...love to see the progress...it's going to be a wonderful kitchen!

You have obviously put in much thought (and angst!) and I think you've come up with a very workable and functional design given all your constraints. The addition of the prep sink is what will make it really work.

One suggestion...make the table at least 39" deep...I think you'll find those extra inches well worth it! We had a 36" deep table in our old kitchen and found it to be too narrow when our children reached their pre-teens. Additionally, we always found it to be a bit of a "challenge" to fit serving dishes on the table during meals. If you can swing it space-wise, you might consider 42"...but I think 39" will probably be OK most of the time.

Good luck!

Love your layout now, it really looks like a wonderful space! Just a quick question, I thought I remembered something about access to a pipe in the pantry you are now closing. If that space is now free on the kitchen side, it might make a nice little alcove for cookbooks, etc.

Good idea CluelessInColorado!

Check out RHome410's kitchen...she has an alcove built into a wall similar to what CluelessInColorado mentioned. She's in the Finished Kitchens Blog's In-Progress Kitchens (see link below).

Here is a link that might be useful: FKB's In-Progress Kitchens

lavender_lass: We actually gave up on the double ovens and are going with a freestanding range and a second oven in the butler's pantry. As to the other details, I've been so focused on the layout I haven't spent much time lately on the finishes. lol. I'm pretty sure we're painting the walls once the wallpaper is gone. We've reserved two slabs of Yellow River granite which has a lot of gold,blue and cream in it. We'll pull a wall color from the granite, but will likley keep the walls and backsplash pretty neutral since the granite has a lot going on. Once the cabinet order is in, I'll post ideas on the rest of our selections.

buehl: Good idea on going with a wider table. Your comment reminds me of our close friends who have a 36" island and hate the fact that table settings are tight.

clueless: That is a great idea about trying to do something with the abandoned pantry (we'll access the pipe from the powder room). I checked out rhome410's alcove (thanks buehl) and that's a great use of space. Since we'll have uppers abutting the pantry, we couldn't do the exact same thing, but maybe putting cookbook storage in an alcove under the uppers could work.

Thanks for everyone's help. DH has heard "this is THE layout" so many times he doesn't belive me when I said it this afternoon. But this really IS it and hopefully we'll be placing a cabinet order on Saturday.