This is the current "original" kitchen that we've been living with, and want to change. Can you see why? (I started worrying that all of you would think the plan in the original post was what were changing from, as opposed to what we're aiming for. lol!)

Hi Jenny,

There's sometimes a lag time between when you post and when your thread appears on the list. Thanks for putting the nevermind in the second one.

Generally, an L with island works, and yours looks fine to me. You've put your lurking time into good use with this plan.

There's one big problem, however. The 42" you have for the kitchen aisles is fine. It's a little narrower than some people like, but fully usable. Not into "I'd tear that sucker out", personal druthers territory. The problem is that what works for a walking aisle bounded by workstations and unmoving cabinets does not work for passageways and seating. You don't have enough room between the table chairs and island stool, and not really enough walking room in the vicinity of the sofa. Then you have open space by the windows.

Additionally, it looks like your little mudroomlet isn't big enough to do its job properly and just makes the doorway to the deck crowded.

I don't have my drawing computer available, so can't try it out myself, but I think if you put the eating where you have the sofa, and do a long sofa instead of the table and chairs along the bottom of page wall, it would work better. You'd have to use side tables and hassocks instead of the big ottoman, but a Moroccan style long couch all along that wall, leaving just the nook for the desk/pantry, would be very cool. Something I was going to ask about the plan as drawn is where the TV you mentioned goes (or was that in another family room?) In my version it could go over the fridge.

It might help to take a tape measure to everything you think you want in this space. Don't measure just the furniture--measure the distance from the wall to the edge, and between the tables and seats, etc. Measure the walkways and try negotiating them with a full tray in your hands. Measure some small closets and benches and see how they work. Put some command hooks in a 4' doorway and hang puffy jackets on them.

The thing is, what you have picture almost works, so I hate to tear it to shreds if you are able to tweak it into something that fits your vision.

QUESTION: If you have the table right there, why do you need seating at the island?

And have you tried to clean a 5'x5' island? It's just slightly too wide for good use of the middle.

If you got rid of the island seatin, made the island a bit narrower, and shortened part of the sofa (the top arm) you could get by without the bump-out, save a bundle of money and still have a really great kitchen.

Thanks so much, pillog! I need to try some of this out, I guess. I definitely know what you mean. We originally had the sofa and table in opposite places, but switched them. I've never had an island nor island seating, and thought we might like both. But maybe don't have room for both. Also, you're probably right about the mudroomlet, lol!! We thought it'd be useful for fleeces/ our outdoor clogs/wet dog towels and so on, but maybe it's not so functional. We actually use our front entry as our main entry, so that's where our puffy coats/boots/mittens/ leashes end up. I was waiting to figure out the furniture placement before determining the tv placement. Does that make sense?

Lazygardens, thanks so much! I've never had an island nor island seating. When I go to friends' houses, I DO like sitting at an island, but that doesn't mean I have to have seating at one. I hadn't thought about cleaning the middle of an island. I guess I figured the bigger it was, the more room I'd have for storage underneath. If I can't easily use the middle of the island, then maybe I wouldnt have to clean it much. Lol! I COULD make the Island narrower, which way would you suggest?

Should I put the sink under the window, or sacrifice the window and put the range/hood there? I thought I'd like a prep sink in our island, but if I had a big enough main sink, I could maybe forgo it. I don't think I can move the fridge, so I was thinking about putting a slightly narrower fridge in so that I could fit the sink and dishwasher on the window wall (so, left to right: corner, sink, dw, space of undetermined width, then fridge.) I'm trying to figure out the best and most efficient use of my space. (A non-GW friend was trying to convince me to put the sink and range both on the non-window wall, but it felt too crowded to me.)

I wouldn't sacrifice a window, but that's me. It is the only window in your kitchen, and to me it makes a kitchen feel cramped to have no window.

I gave it a try. What I did was keep most of what you had but scaled back on everything. I moved your banquet to under the windows. Where you have the banquet, I put the tv on the wall. You can put in some sort of shelving there too.

I made the island smaller. It's now 36" deep which will give seating although not much. Instead of a prep sink and a regular sink, I eliminated the prep sink. Really in your space, you are better with the extra counter space. I moved the regular sink to the island along with the dw and you have room for a trash drawer. Kept your fridge and range where you had it.

Julie, give yourself a pat on the back for being flexible.

I like what Cpartist did. I would extend the bench part of the banquette at least to the lefthand window, and have some storage below for components, media, etc.

Without getting into particulars, which depend on final disposition of other things, I think you could easily put a cabinet by the door, or a halltree, or even a hook or two, for the fleeces and stuff. I suggest a covered hamper outside for the wet dog towels that can't go right into the washer. Dry dog/mud towels could be in a drawer under the end of the banquette.

Re the different kinds of seating, casual family meals at the table are great, where you can see each other and have a proper, relaxed conversation. Also good for playing cards, and, when the time comes, sitting with your teenager and friends and having frank conversations about the pitfalls ahead of them. The island is good for chatting up the cook, doing homework while mom helps and makes dinner, grabbing a quick bite. The sofa seating is great for relaxing, cuddling, trimming artichokes, etc. (Okay, that's probably just me. I take a basket and tinsnips to a comfy seat if I'm doing a lot of artichokes. Tinsnips are great for cutting the tips on artichoke leaves.)

Am I Julie? Lol, I'm not THAT flexible!

Cpartist, that's so cool! thanks so much! What program did you use?
Here's the thing. We have NO dining room. This is our casual AND elegant dining table. So, putting that cute banquette there is fine for those with a nice dining room, because then they'd have somewhere else to have a nice dinner. To me, the 2-sided banquette seems very casual. Plus it can be hard for adults to get in when it's 2-sided like that. We originally planned for a table like that and ended up discarding it. That's why we had the table/banquette in the first posted plan (see above) how we had it: more flexible with regards to being more casual or elegant, depending. We were thinking about putting a flat screen tv over the banquette that looked like a big bistro mirror when not on.

Ideagirl2, I'm right there with you. I want to keep the window. Just needed confirmation on taking advantage of the window, if possible.

Pillog, thanks for elaborating on the different kinds of seating. I knew i wanted some island seating, if I could. Still not sure about making the island so small. I like the idea of a covered hamper outside. Don't pat me on the back yet; I'm just entertaining the changes, not yet committing to them!

I feel sad about having no prep sink. Really sad. How do others feel about that and also about having the only sink in the small island?

Also, Cpartist, I can't move the island down into the main pathway of circulation. I have to keep the non-kitchen side of the island (the "bottom" part) flush with the counters. Does that make sense?

I usually only lurk on these layout postings because I love to watch the experts work but wanted to address your island/prep sink dilema. DH was originally against having a prep sink in island (didn't want to do the extra plumbing) and I almost agreed because I loved the idea of uninterupted counterspace, but my SIL and aunt both pointed out the need for one (long, stretched out kitchen). We are both glad we decided to put one in and love it. It's a small one but gives us a place to rinse stuff, get water for the coffee pot which is close by, etc., and still gives me enough counter space to work on. While your kitchen is smaller in size, depending on the number of cooks you have in your kitchen a small prep sink could be justified.

However, I would definitely make the island a little smaller as even though you might have more storage, it's really hard to get all the way to the back and things tend to get lost. You can still have a small prep sink and a small overhang (12" or so) to push one or two backless stools under it. That's what we went with and it has worked out great because the stools are out of the way most of the time and only pulled out when I have guests who want to sit while I fix. Here's a couple of pics of our island (36"w x 72" long, 12" overhang):

You may actually want to try a U arrangement again with the U facing Down. You are taking 3-4 linear feet and giving it over partly to circulation with an island. Its a small enough area that an open U is still an efficient plan.

That way you may also be able to get the seating facing the view instead of turned away from it.

Farmhousebound, what a sweetie! Thanks for posting AND pics, too! Really helpful! Okay, so how big is your prep sink? Would you want it bigger?

This might be a dumb question, but couldn't I put storage underneath the island on both sides, even under a potential counter overhang to make use of the extra space? That's what my intention was, since I can't enlarge the kitchen walls any further to gain more storage. Does this make sense?

Palimpsest, hmmm. Interesting thought. How would the fridge work in that plan.? I definitely see your point, though. . Got to try to see how that might work.

The fridge could go in two places, depending upon the degree of complete openness you want.

The fridge could go at the bottom of the U by stairs, (which I believe would involve closing an opening you have there?)

The fridge could go at the bottom of the other part of the U in a "column" that would roughly correspond to the end of the island. So...it would be open but there would be a blocking of the kitchen from the eating area a bit.

Thats what was done here, although its not the best picture. One "column" is the refrigerator, and it lines up with the freestanding fireplace between the DR and LR. So, the kitchen is mostly open to the rest, especially from working spots but the fridge creates some separation--I don't think it would block any views

Here is the other view of how it works with the kitchen, with the fridge column to the left:

What a fun thread to read over. Jenny, regarding a possible elegant dining trade-off for this room, since you use the front room(s) so little, how about reconfiguring up there for more special meals? For instance, our dining table is drop-leaf mahogany with 2 extensions. Folded up against the wall with lamp and pix above, it's an attractive picture itself. Extended, it seats anywhere from 6 to 12 people depending on how extended. Or maybe a reconfiguration to fit your needs might be better with a permanently open table for multifunctioning. Or a combo, such as a 4' round that can extend to an oval to seat a crowd.

BTW, your compact earlier design might do very nicely without an island sink. We plumbed our island (also paired with an L counter) for a sink but left the actual installation for a bit later. A couple of years down the road I'm still waiting to miss it and the sink's still waiting in the basement. Also BTW, our main sink's a single basin 28 inches inside length and 9 inches deep. I love it for all the things it's great for, but most especially the way it hides waiting mess from view.

Hi Rosie! Thanks! Using the front room for dining is a great idea, however we DO use our front room quite a bit as well, because when I'm cooking/cleaning or watching a movie with my daughter, my hubby can go up front and sit in the sofa with our dog and read, so it functions as a quiet "away" room (Sarah Susanka, anyone?) but he can still feel connected to us. And vice versa. That's also where our fireplace is, and we like to hang out there, especially when our families come out from the east coast to stay with us. I think we looked into it being a dining room, but the proportions didn't work. Ah, the joys of small urban living! Maybe I should post that plan too!

However, I also love hearing about your lack of need for a prep sink. Does your husband or anyone else use the kitchen at the same time as you?

Palimpsest, that's pretty neat! Was that your idea or an architect's? I've seen something similar in several architecture books. I'm not sure it would work in our space, but I'm currently drawing it on graph paper. I love your home!

This was actually a design I did for somebody else. The kitchen used to be back where the fireplace was and the LR was at the front, with no separate dining area. (My house is 1840 traditional architecture.)

Our prep sink from Kohler (got off of e-bay)--cutout for it is ~14" x 11.5", 8" deep; inside of it is ~11.75" x 9.25". While it's small, it's perfect for what we use it for and I wouldn't want it any larger as I love having the rest of the countertop to work on. We have a large farmhouse sink (39-1/2") for washing dishes so I don't really use it for that unless it's just to wash/rinse out something small. I totally understand about being able to access from both sides for storage, you would just need to move your stools so I would keep things on that side to those items you don't use alot. You've done a great job maximizing your space - good luck!!

Palimpsest, I do really like the way your design provides openness and also some separation of the work area from the dining and living rooms. I suspect a coming big wave of remodelings will involve introducing similar discretion to many of those on full view from everywhere.

Jenny, we're a 2-butt family these days. Our layout is pretty much like to your original design, with the chief cook of the moment "owning" the island-stove area. I suspect in that design the cook's path from stove to fridge might be a tad harder to share than the sink itself. After all, whoever's at the sink is usually standing still and can be nudged over with a little hip bump.

Okay, separate from the overall layout, I'm also stressing about the appliance/sink layout. I'm attempting to keep the cleaning zone separate from the food prep/cooking zone. I'd also ideally like to have some space around the sink(s.) My main conditions are to not move the fridge (don't see how it really works in such a narrow space,) nor block the one window. In the 3rd layout, I do, however, block the window with the hood vent because I'm having a hard time coming up with a layout where the prepping/cooking zone isn't interrupted by the cleanup zone. (Maybe there's a hood vent that won't block the window too much!)
Help, please!

The bench doesn't have to be built in. It's there as an idea. Nothing says it can't be a beautiful moveable bench and then at the ends you can add chairs.

I am looking at this in two different threads, I guess...

Layout 1 does not work at all with a sink and cooktop abutting each other.

Layout 3 puts a range in front of a window, and the window would have to be inoperable as well as the issues of drawing grease up onto the window with your ventilation hood.

Layout 2...well, it puts the clean up front and center to both the dining area and the living area. The sofa faces the island with the clean up sink.

I think you may not need a separate prep sink, or you need to look at layout 4 (5,6)

Did you give up on trying out a downward facing U?

I can't draw it right now but the downward facing U could be from lower left-->top of U--> lower right , as follows:

Counter, range, corner, clean up sink and DW at window, corner, prep sink, counter, fridge in "column". (it does put the prep sink across the aisle from the range but so is it in an island configuration)

In this link are several banquets that certainly don't look informal.

Here is a link that might be useful: [banquets[(https://www.houzz.com/magazine/kitchen-design-bringing-restaurant-style-home-stsetivw-vs~159921)