Tend to prefer plan 3. When you enter room you look all the way across and see the range rather than the side of the fridge as in 2. The range is on an outside wall which means can have a good vent to the outside. 3 is more spacious in feeling and I guess I would trade off some work space and storage space to have that spaciousness. You said short on workspace, but the island would have good workspace.

Would you consider putting the sink in the island, and in that bottom wall, where sink is now, have instead two windows on either side of the range. Have the range centered on the wall with its hood? Then sink in island is directly across from the range.

That way you get the spaciousness but also some nice symmetry.

hmmm... will have to think about the sink in the island. I tend to do most of work on the counterspace between my sink and range - i think it would be a big adjustment to work on an island and then transport what I am working on over to the range, BUT it is certainly worth considering.

AND, I am a big fan of symmetry! I will work on figuring out exactly how big the island could be.

Does anyone with dogs have advice or experience with sliding glass doors?

Am posting a link below to a blog that talks about range/cooktop in corners

Here is a link that might be useful: Range in Corner Considerations

I like 2 and 3 the best, and if you made me pick one, I would go with 3. I think the island will prove to add much more work space than you might think. You could also consider moving the sink to the island and that would allow you to move the range down and create a focal point on the wall. If your backyard is out the sliders/doors, this would bring in lots of natural light and connect the two living spaces - esp in summer months (assuming you have a patio etc). How large is the island on plan 3? You could do 3 seats on one side and the fourth on an end. If you didn't want to do sliders, you could do an outswing french so you would not have to worry about the door.

What is the size of the table on plan 2? Can you provide some approximate measurements for the kitchen walls on plans 2 and 3?

i found this nice article on outswing doors. I could probably have an inswing screened door made, but that might not be great for Plan 3. Will get more dimensions for you.

For Plan 2, I think the table would be around 28" x 45", thereabouts. something, but not really great.

Also, here is some info on appliances:

-- would prefer cooktop/wall ovens but can live with a range.
-- 36" range or cooktop
-- Will likely go for a built in refrigerator. Probably 36" Liebherr. Would prefer NOT to have a french door set up but if the plan called for it, I could make that compromise.
-- Would like as large a sink as possible, preferably 33".

Here is a link that might be useful: Swing Out door article

I am put a sink and DW on that island and will call that Plan 4. I think it is too small and I don't like the seating all in a row - also not enough space to seat four people. bummer.

Here is Plan 5. Not a fan of everyone being seated in a row but at least this provides for more seating. Would probably need a little more space between the range and sink?? Still have the issue of the screened door to contend with.

Have you thought about a retractable screen door. They are available for swing in or swing out doors. We have them on our patio doors and love them. If you do a search you will find many different brands of these doors. In the past we had Phantom and currently we have Pella. Of course you can't have a retractable storm door but you could possibly change the interior door to an energy efficient type that does not need a storm door.

For some reason I like #1. I like having that private area back there for pantry and additional functions. I like having more complexity to the room so everything's not seen in one sweep. I like an occasional irregular space (as measured against tract home predictability) for the little ones to hide in. I like taking extra space from the laundry room and putting it in the home's busiest room.

I like that that additional space means just no need for an island--because I really, really like a table and chairs (pull-out-and-relax-into chairs, pull-up-an-extra-for-a visitor chairs) in the middle of a kitchen.

Regarding the 38", no, it's not too tight. It leads to a small dead end, so there's just not a whole lot of need for 2 people to be able to swing past each other without touching. My island is 35" from the stove counter, which is just the way I chose it to be. It might be closer still, but I needed room to walk (carefully) around the oven when it's open. Our hall in our little vacation mobile home is only 30" wide and we haven't had to be unwedged by the fire department yet, so you can imagine we wouldn't feel a need to have a great deal more for our pantry hall.

If it were mine, I'd probably move the sink right close to the end of the main regular-depth counter, so it ended at about your "38-tight arrow." I'd do this to maximize prep area to its left under the window. I'd have full-depth counter continue a ways beyond it to hold mess-in-waiting. And love it that.

Regarding the door, if in the end you need a screen door to swing in, I say go for it. Make it a decorative one, and do a favor for somebody else wondering if "anybody does this" by posting pictures on Houzz. You could even echo the screen in the door of a pie cabinet in the pantry. Or something. (I'd skip on the pink and blue jigsawed wood ducks, that are popping into my mind at this point for some reason, tho.) Have fun. :)

My earlier post didn't go through. :( I liked Option 2 with a peninsula coming off the cabinet next to the range. This would mean you could shift the range and would also mean that the door wouldn't interfere with the seating.

Brian,
I was thinking of trying something like that... will explore that next.

In the meantime trying to do more with Plan 1 which I think has possibilities (for many of the reasons Rosie mentioned - thanks!!).

This one would have the added benefit of cross ventilation and also I like the idea that when looking from the dining room, through the butler's pantry and into the kitchen that the wall/panel (whatever it will end up being) obscures the kitchen. AND, the door swing for an interior screen door has a place to go that isn't in a major traffic pattern. Does this have possibilities?

Oh, one more thing... If I had my druthers, I would prefer a table and chairs to an island for seating as I think it is more comfortable at meal times and easier for the kids when they are doing homework or playing, etc.

My last house had a 10X10 kitchen with 7 doors and 2 windows, including the mainly used door by our family of 3 + 2 dogs that also accessed the mud room/laundry. So I feel ya. ;)

I'm not good with envisioning layouts so I will leave that to the experts. But 2 thoughts -

1- Can you get cabinetry built around your w/d so you can hide them from view? Sounds like you have a historical house so hiding them might be appealing.

2- Sliding doors and dogs. We have a French door entrance to our new house, with a sliding screen door. The PO's had a dog too and the bottom of the screen door has a metal guard on it to keep the dogs from poking their heads through. It is not the prettiest thing I've ever seen but I think I will like having the breeze in the Spring. In the past I never used my screen inserts in my storms because of the dogs.

Good luck!

I like #4. You have a lot of space between top wall (the entry wall) and the island. You could make the island into an upside down T shape-- add a section on to the top -- for more seating area.

Sliding doors and dogs. Our German Shepherd had a short learning curve, and walked into the glass, hard, once. After that he slowed when approaching the door. Some kind of a lower guard to the screen might be helpful; the only little hole in the screen is from an excited "scritch" when he saw a turtle on the patio. :-)

We do like the screens in spring and fall.

Like clubcracker, I too will leave the layouts to the experts. But dogs and doors I know! :)

My MIL had a sliding glass door that we put in an small panel (Sheltie size) with a dog door. It worked very well as their slider was quite wide because the doggie panel narrowed the door by a foot or so. It was fairly efficient ie weather-tight fit but they lived in Tucson so not alot of winter wind challenge. If you otherwise would spend alot of time opening the screen /storm door to let the dogs in or out, this always-available slider option might work out well.

There is pet-proof screening generally available, if the slider (or whatever screen door you select) doesn't already have it as an option during purchase. We had this on our sunroom slider screen (DH installed) and it worked ok for our 40lb dogs --no idea about 100lb Mastifs or such lol!

In a different house that had a French door, we removed one of the panes and put in a quite small pet door that both our cat and Beagle used. This obviously only works for quite small dogs.

There are also magnetic (I think that's how they work) pet doors available that only open for a pet wearing a matching magnetic collar. I haven't used one yet ( will next summer when we put in a deck) but if there're raccoons in your neighborhood or loose dogs, that might be helpful keeping out unwanted visitors.

good luck with the design and how exciting to get a new kitchen!

HTH

Thank you for the dog door advice. Figuring out this issue with the door is a big one. In my situation, I want to keep the dogs in so I won't need a pet door, just a door that will hold up to them jumping on it.

Currently our storm door / screen door has one of those pneumatic closer things so that the door closes automatically after we go through it. We didn't have this at the last house so the kids would constantly forget to make sure the door was securely closed and the dogs would get out.

I guess this is one reason I would opt away from a plan with a sliding door (as much as I like the idea of the light it would let in).

Anyone have any comments on Plan #6?

Thank you!

You're brain's cooking away, I see.

The cross-ventilation created by opening the kitchen all the way across would be great, and the line up of the windows would be a small pleasure each time you turned from one end to the other. I forgot to mention the window at the end as a big reason that wing of the kitchen was so appealing to me, but it is. To me it's just one of those things that really makes a big difference, including in perception of size.

That storage over the W/D looks like a really good idea, too.

I can certainly understand your desire to refine the view into the kitchen and to create a place for the door to "belong," not to mention that coat closet, but I suspect the benefits would be outweighed considerably by the costs of breaking up the room by pushing the fridge out. If-it-were-mine :), I'd need that sizable open space instead of a series of small ones.

I'm terrible with layouts, but just want to say, WHAT??? YOU HAVE MOVED FROM YOUR INCREDIBLE KITCHEN AND HOUSE??!!

Your kitchen was one of my all-time favorites! I can only imagine how many elements were copied--that wonderful pop-out bank of windows, the butcherblock island, gorgeous hood, backsplash, cabinets and hardware.

I can't wait to see what you come up with this time around. Your taste is exquisite. (-8

Odd little collection of thoughts:

-- can the w/d hide in the bp somewhere? odd, I know
-- Can the basement door have a surface mounted sliding door?
-- Get the tall things not to be between you and the door? exchange the table and the ref stuff?
-- hinge the exit doors on the other side (on the bp side)?
-- can you move the bp door at all?

Not sure any are of use.

Is there any way to economically change the doorway so that it is at top right of the plan, on the other outside wall?

shanghai.. thanks so much! so nice of you to say. I think this new kitchen has huge potential - it is just so tricky with the chimney and also stairwells separating the kitchen from the other parts of the house. I guess we'll see how it progresses. I have to commit to a floorplan first.

bmore,
-- can the w/d hide in the bp somewhere? odd, I know

unfortunately not. when entering the bp from the kitchen, immediately on your left is a cabinet - it has a false front which is hiding headspace for the basement stairs - and there isn't much headspace to start with so I really cannot push this back at all. on the right as you enter the bp is a bank of cabinets and a sink. the sink is huge, a big 36" kohler cast iron sink for a room that is only 72" wide! way too big. we will keep a sink in there - it has been very handy. the kids brush their teeth there before leaving for school and we have filtered water over there so they can help themselves to water anytime.

I will try to post some pictures of the bp so that you can get a sense. the cabinetry hiding the basement stairwell headspace is so funky you can't even believe it.

having the W/D out in the open in that utility space doesn't bother me. Obviously in Plans 2 and 3 it is pretty well hidden which is nice, but even in Plan 1 as long as I can't see it from the kitchen I am okay. I do laundry every day so I don't want it behind doors as I want the easy access to it.

-- Can the basement door have a surface mounted sliding door?

probably.... this would be worth investigating as that doorswing is CRAZY making.

-- Get the tall things not to be between you and the door? exchange the table and the ref stuff?
will try this next along with Brian's idea on #2 - ran out of time earlier today.
hinge the exit doors on the other side (on the bp side)?
if I do this I will have to move the casing down toward the sink wall such that door when open is not obstructing the opening to the bp (as I have shown in plan #2 above). The wall space to the right of the opening to the bp is only 22" and without the option of moving the doorway over (because of the above mentioned basement headspace issue) I am limited here.
can you move the bp door at all?
I can widen it a little which might alleviate the log jam we are feeling in this space as it is a major traffic pattern. On the left side I can pull it back about 5". On the right side maybe about 5" as well.

I am trying to go for a little bit more of a contemporary look so I might try to tone down all the heavy duty casings in this space. From that standpoint I love the idea of the basement door on a sliding track. I have seen them by Fleurco for shower bathroom doors....maybe could be used in this application as well.

florantha,
do you mean over where the W/D currently resides? if so, no this is not even remotely a possibility as there is very little set back. This house is an 1850's sea captain's house in the village section of my town. Very cute and quaint but not a lot of space for bumping out (because of set backs, etc.). if you have any other ideas or that is not what you meant please let me know. thanks.

hi bmore,
i played around with that plan. I like the openness although I did lose some cabinetry (between the cooktop and fridge) and I am on the edge of not having enough storage. On the other hand, I did pick up some utility storage on the back side of the refrigerator.

what do you think? The other one formed a little vestibule when entering the kitchen which i sort of like, but maybe it would be too cramped? will have to put some tape down on the floors if this is the direction I opt for.

Plan 7:

check out these sliding doors i found on houzz... i could do this for the basement door AND the butler's pantry door (or not!... am i getting carried away?)

[

[contemporary spaces design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-home-design-ideas-phbr1-bp~s_2103) by san francisco design-build Urrutia Design

Definitely get carried away. All the most exciting designs take a path at least a little untraveled. Any new thoughts?

rosie,
thanks for checking in... at this point I am mostly just thinking through the challenges (and putting lots of masking tape on the floor). I'm trying to imagine the various scenarios and talking it through with DH to get his feedback. Also, trying not to rush into anything. Ran my latest idea by a KD with 30 years experience and got lots of positive feedback (will post again after I have a chance to process my latest thoughts). Very excited by the prospects before me and hoping not to make any mistakes!

I love those doors - really hope it works out as I'd love to see them used. :)