You left your real name and approximate location on those drawings.

So, I look at them and think two things right away:
(1) Why have an island? The way this plan works is stuff from ref goes to island (consequence of sxs ref) then partly flipped to back to beside clean up sink, likely chopped in the space between the sink and cooktop on the perimeter. There is nothing wrong with that - it's just a lot of dollars to have an island for a landing zone for the ref. Adding a prep sink would help increase use of the island. Moving the cleanup sink over towards the ref would increase the room for prep if you want to use the perimeter.

(2) It's extremely likely you won't like the corners in the way you treat some of them (tall stuff next to short stuff). It becomes difficult to use any of that space because you can't reach it well because the tall thing will block your body. Plus there seem to be technical errors about having appropriate fillers so all of the cabinets can actually be opened - as a specific example, using the tall roll out unit on the long wall, there needs to be a wide filler (3") allowed between the tall cabinet and the short cabinet or opening under the counter. The counter on the short object will protrude 1.5" towards the pullout pantry, you need to leave room for its doors to open out of the way of the interior drawers, and for the cabinet knobs or handles not to hit the stuff on the opposite side of the corner.

I'm not sure about the positioning of the bar stuff - looks hard to use (as an example "wine ref?" door seems to open into the face of incoming bar customers) and it leads people into the interior of the kitchen when perhaps you won't be wanting them.

Higher counters can be difficult for people who are older, very young or have special needs. The "raise" does help with splash over a little. I would seriously consider trading cleanup for the bar area and leaving the seating area at counter height.

Hello bmorepanic,
I was hoping I would hear from you. Thanks for reminding me about my name and location being on those drawings, when I get home to the sketches I will clean them up and re-post to protect my privacy.

Thank you for your insight. I think the main kitchen sink was left where it is to save money as that is the location of the current sink. How far would you move it over towards the fridge? Would you leave the dishwasher where it is under the counter to the right of the fridge?

I am not sure I understand the tall and short cabinet paragraph. Would you not have the pull out pantry on the far left? Would it be better to have it be a pantry with roll out shelves like the one on the right side of the long wall? The wine fridge has a right hinge, (I already own it so it has to open this way), and so I thought it best to have it to the right of the bar. Originally, the designer had the wine fridge to the left of the bar and the ovens to the right, which did not seem as good to me.

I was not sure about the upper counter either, but hope 42 inches will be ok for folks, there is plenty of table height seating in the breakfast area adjacent to the desk.

Not sure if I move the clean up area to the bar then where does the bar go exactly? Having a tough time visualizing that since I want to keep the wall to a minimum between the kitchen and sunroom, where the sink and upper counter are at present.

A prep sink at the island is something that we are not crazy about having seen friends' homes where the island has nothing on it. We want to keep the island top really open for buffets and prep. Plus, it is not in the budget.

Thank you for taking the time to review everything. If you can explain further how the tall and short cabinetry is not well designed, and how to improve it (especially with a diagram), I would be so appreciative.

I'm going to try. I'm sorry I've been out for a while - we had a death in the family followed immediately by another family member having medical issues.

First, changing depths is a planning issue for corners - not in flat runs. In flat runs, it affects cabinet crowns but not otherwise.

This is a bit of the floor plan from an actual house - just not my house - completely out of our league pricewise. It's got a bad kitchen tho and so redoing the floorplan of the kitchen is something of a hobby. It should only take another 2 years or so.

This version has a flat, flush "great wall of tall" ending in a corner with base cabinets only on the other side of the corner. The wall of tall is shown in the incredibly crappy freehand elevation underneath. I'm not recommending this to anyone or for anything. It's just a sample.

It uses 3" fillers to allow the doors/drawers on both sides of the corner to open without running into whatever handles are used and no special decisions need to be made about counter overhangs or how to end them. It "fills in" the what-could-be hard to use space at the end of the counter by using counter to ceiling shelving and sets the upper cabinet flush to the front of the pantry instead of hanging indented on the wall. No awkward hard to reach area and enough depth to hold something deeper like a micro on the bottom.

The lower drawing is a fragment from the rolls outs to the corner - leading around to what I guess is the desk area. There is a little corner of the floor plan in black, a close up of the corner and cabinet guts in red and a less detailed floor plan with a body in blue.

In the blue drawing, the person's left arm literally can't reach that way, if they turn to use their right arm, their face pretty much has to be planted on the cabinet door to try and reach blind into that corner. Also, people usually don't have really long arms - moving further away from the corner and reaching back wouldn't be an option for me. Even tho I'm sorta average height (5'7"), I have difficulty reaching the back of a corner that doesn't have a tall thing right next to it.

The red explosion is a pull out drawer that needs to clear the hinges and the hinges opening the cabinet door so its out of the way. When both sides of a corner have handles or hinges that push the door forward away from the cabinet, there needs to be room left for those things to exist without getting caught. Some companies have the hinges near fixed shelves to control where the pullout is - so it can be fatter but still rollout. Crappy looking drawing of the hinge too!

So the black drawing has the required spacing at the corner. Again, I'd think about doing a wall cabinet flushed to the front of the tall or cutting the "L" off.

I think I understand your diagrams, and can report that I do not have shelves/storage of any kind under the counter in the corner of that L between the cooktop and sink. Lazy Susan's, blind corners, etc. just drive me crazy and I have ample storage elsewhere in the remodel.

Gotta run but will respond more later.

My condolences on the death in your family. As a young widow I truly empathize with those mourning and grieving.

I agree about this all working better with a prep sink in the island, but it would work far better (IMO anyway) with the fridge where the narrow pantry is and the prep sink on that corner of the island, so you're not going through the cleanup area to the opposite end of the kitchen to access the fridge while you cook/bake.

Then I'd move the main sink to the left, as Bmore advised, and have dish storage where the fridge is now. As I said, just my opinion in order to separate your zones better, and make better use of the whole room.

Hello rhome410,
Thanks for responding to my post. Interesting idea about putting the fridge on the far left tall wall.

If you replace an 18 inch wide pantry with a 42 inch wide fridge/freezer, where else do you take away space on that wall to make up those 24 inches? Also, the doorway between the cooktop and tall wall is the main artery to the family room, bathroom, etc. it leads to the butlers pantry on the right but everything else is straight ahead that opening. That said, is it smart to put the fridge over in that area, as well as a prep sink? I had thought having the ovens over there was not a big deal, but putting the prep sink and fridge would have people walking through the working part of the kitchen. I thought that was undesirable.

Last item of note. There is HVAC and plumbing in the wall where the 42 inch fridge and appliance garage/cabinet are currently located. I am not moving any of that, to save money, so what would you do with those 65 inches of wall space? Put in cabinets for glasses and dishes? Put the ovens in? I am not sure.

Yes, I meant for hutch or whatever type cabinets you like for where the fridge is now.

The prep sink would mostly serve the stove so not a problem with the traffic, and having that water source available to those on the perimeter of the kitchen work area can be a good thing... hand washing, baking projects, beverage prep, ice bin for buffet food, etc, etc,

We have our main fridge in the main entry to our kitchen and it isn't' a problem. You have a roomy aisle. I am trying to increase work task efficiency, and limit crisscrossing paths within the kitchen work area, which, for me, would be worse. How you might redesign that run is something that you'd have to decide based on your priorities, but I think that with a prep sink placed to that side of the island, you could certainly eliminate the beverage area sink as it (the prep sink) could serve both the beverage and cooking areas.

I like the idea of not having to put another sink in, and just moving it a few feet from the bar to the island so it will be usable for perimeter use makes sense to me. How about putting it in the island where it indents, across from the bar? Also, if I move the 45 inch fridge to where the 18 inch pantry is, do I leave the 33 inch stack of ovens next to it, to the right? Is it a big deal that there is no counter top next to the fridge and you have to walk across a 53 inch aisle to put stuff on the island? Also, I need to trim 24 inches from that tall wall, do I make the pantry only 12 inches? Do I decrease the bar area from 60.5 inches down to 36 inches? And, if I move the fridge and put dish storage there, how far would you move the sink over to the left? Would you keep the dishwasher in its location?

Finally, is there an easy way to blur my name from the images that I uploaded from Photobucket? I tried last night and could not figure it out.

Thank you everyone.

With a side by side fridge, when the door is open, it is awkward to reach around the open door and place something down on a counter that is blocked by the open fridge door. I have a counter next to my SXS fridge and it is not a landing spot for fridge items. I use my island.

Good to know about side by sides, having never owned one. Thanks, Dilly_ny.

You should be able to use the eraser tool somewhere in the edit functions to cover the names in Photobucket.

You could also edit them, then resave as a new image, delete the originals and repost the pics.

How about putting it (prep sink) in the island where it indents, across from the bar?
I hope this doesn't sound too blunt, but it would be of no use as a prep sink or help to the cooking area in that location. On the corner near the possible new fridge location, it'd be a great place to fill and drain pots, as well as do prep and other functions like I listed above, plus be used for beverages.

I would just replace the narrow pantry and shift things down, as they are (so leaving the oven next to the fridge), probably reducing the size of the beverage area, or adjust it and the pantry. A 12" pantry wouldn't be worth much.

As Dilly said, there is no benefit to counter next to a side-by-side fridge. The island across would be the landing area.

For the dish storage where the fridge is now shown, I'd probably replace the fridge with dish storage cabinetry, then shift the dw next to that, with the fridge now moved approx 20" to the left of where it is now. Will that work with the window? Is the window position already set?

No offense taken regarding the prep sink location on the island. Well, I asked my Kitchen Designer if we could mock up the kitchen with the fridge where the pantry is and she is not pleased! Here is the sketch she came up with, and she says, that before she prices the changes and includes the new charges for plumbing and electrical to the island, since I will want a disposal I should be aware of the concerns she has outlined. So, here's the sketch. There is currently a 30 inch wide warming drawer in the island on the end that is opposite the cooktop. That end of the island is raised with a chopping block, as well, which is why she probably put the sink further in. What do you think?

{{!gwi}}

She is not pleased???? Is she mad because you are questioning HER plan? or is she really concerned about giving you the best kitchen that fits your needs?

I can't help with the details, others here are better with that. I will say that my new kitchen breaks all those same "rules" and so far I love it. Unless you have unlimited funds, etc. I bet there isn't one kitchen that doesn't break some NKBA rule.

Remember they are guidelines and suggestions. Remember your KD works for YOU.

Why does she have any leg of the triangle running from the main sink to the fridge? We are getting rid of that path by having the prep sink. To me she is using an outdated kitchen design concept that used to work well with smaller kitchens with one cook, and now don't really fit for zone work in a larger space with more than one worker or multiple tasks taking place. Zones are a set of smaller, more efficient triangles.

That said, the limitations you've just now shared about your island design are preventing this from working. That prep sink location isn't good. Can the warming drawer move? See Elizpiz's island, linked below, for a great way to have a sink in the end counter material.

I didn't notice enough to ask before... Why the jog in the island? Is it necessary to run the island so long to where it doesn't really fit? A little shorter, like even with where the fridge ends in the original design, and the jog is gone, and things are made to fit the space and not be oddly shaped. I also like runs that end the room together.

She didn't replace the fridge with anything. Is that because she was just seeing how the oven wall would change?

Is the desk portion that goes back beside the pantry necessary? If not, you could run the pantry behind the desk and have a framed, step-in style pantry instead of the cabinets.

Here is a link that might be useful: ElizPiz's island w/2 materials and a sink

The warming drawer can move, she had originally had it under the double ovens, but I thought it would be easier to use if it was under a counter of the island. Where would you suggest moving it to, the double ovens or else where in the kitchen?

I had planned to do soapstone for the island, so I suppose the sink could be in the soapstone, on the corner near the newly located fridge, or on the other corner of the island, closer to the cooktop. However, then I lose the wood block at the end of the island, near the cooktop. Bummer, I had so looked forward to having a permanent cutting board in the kitchen near where the induction will be. Can I do both?

The desk juts out of the oven wall, about 2 feet, which is why there is a jog in the island. The island could be shortened 6 inches, and then you don't have that indentation.

As for why she didn't replace the fridge with a hutch, in the drawing, I think she was just demonstrating the lack of good triangle dimensions with the fridge being next to the ovens. Behind the desk is a staircase that cannot be moved. I really like having a desk in my kitchen, I use it everyday, as do my kids. So, that was a necessity.

Would a pull out pantry to the left of the hutch be a good way to add another 12 inches of pantry space? What would you put to the right of the hutch? There is a 24 inch dishwasher below the countertops.

Thanks for all your feedback, rhome410. This is really helpful for me as I thrash out the options.

The warming drawer can move, she had originally had it under the double ovens, but I thought it would be easier to use if it was under a counter of the island. Where would you suggest moving it to, the double ovens or else where in the kitchen?

I had planned to do soapstone for the island, so I suppose the sink could be in the soapstone, on the corner near the newly located fridge, or on the other corner of the island, closer to the cooktop. However, then I lose the wood block at the end of the island, near the cooktop. Bummer, I had so looked forward to having a permanent cutting board in the kitchen near where the induction will be. Can I do both?

The desk juts out of the oven wall, about 2 feet, which is why there is a jog in the island. The island could be shortened 6 inches, and then you don't have that indentation.

As for why she didn't replace the fridge with a hutch, in the drawing, I think she was just demonstrating the lack of good triangle dimensions with the fridge being next to the ovens. Behind the desk is a staircase that cannot be moved. I really like having a desk in my kitchen, I use it everyday, as do my kids. So, that was a necessity.

Would a pull out pantry to the left of the hutch be a good way to add another 12 inches of pantry space? What would you put to the right of the hutch? There is a 24 inch dishwasher below the countertops.

Thanks for all your feedback, rhome410. This is really helpful for me as I thrash out the options.

Here is a picture of the current floorplan of the kitchen, and the first floor, so you can see how the desk area juts out:

This is a sorta drawing with some alternatives shown. I agree with some comments here but also some from the designer.

Since I'm not you (duh!), I usually talk about how I would feel using the space. What's important is how You would feel but that's just not knowable through a couple of questions on the ol' internet. So here goes... and just because I'm confusing today, its not quite what's drawn.

I would speak to an ac guy to ask about moving that big return vent plus the hood vent and a structural guy to see if I could move the doorway over to the other side leading to the conservatory. It seems to me that if it could have a mighty hole in it for the bar with counters underneath, then that hole could go on and become a mostly missing wall.

I would change the east wall (as drawn) starting at the garage door as little pantry, exit towards dining room, ref, ovens, more pantry. Then starting at the east corner of the north wall, would go side of pantry, doorway to conservatory, cleanup+bar, seating or desk. The center island and cooking area would remain as shown, but I would add the ref drawers.

I'd like to get as big of an opening to the conservatory as I could, so I'd be happy trading off some breakfast area space if it could be larger - like as large as the size of the light purple slashed area in the conservatory wall. The trade for opening the area being a new place to shove cleanup. It would feel more like the kitchen and conservatory are open to each other than having a door plus counter with a little peeper space above.

I would be happy with the six-ish feet of primary prep beside the small sink. If you are a garbage disposal type person, the small sink should have a disposal. I'd use a lowered dough area instead of the chopping block - but it's the same type of thing of having a somewhat decorative functional space. I like to have one small oven nearby, so I'd likely choose one of the small steam plus thermal ovens (a kitchen this big is a fairy tale to me, so I might as well go all the way!).

I'd have a little concern about distance to ref, so I'd choose the ref drawers in the prep area and reduce the size of the primary ref (or not if you think you need it) or switch the model to the ones that have an inbuilt wine section.

For overall storage, there's enough for all sorts of gear on the official prep side and enough for extra or annual stuff and/or veg baskets or some nearby pantry items.

There's a whole group of available trades or add ons drawn in holiday appropriate orange.

Happy Turkey Day! waves from Baltimore

I tried to mock up the kitchen with rhome410's suggestions, and borrowed the Franke Beach sink idea from ElizPiz, at the end of the island, since it seems so functional. I am not sure where to put the 30 inch wide warming drawer, but thought maybe in that 30 inch block in the island on the side that is closest to the ovens, since it will have two drawers underneath good for storing all the GE Advantium accessories. I also shortened the island so it doesn't have the indentation near the desk. Based on this sketch do you think the aisle between sink and cooktop should be widened since one person might be at the sink while another is at the cooktop?

Here is the sketch, forgive the whiteouts and eraser marks.

Happy Thanksgiving, bmorepanic. I hope you are having an enjoyable holiday. I appreciate your taking the time to get creative with alternate plans. But, we are past the point of discussing structural changes to the space. The structural engineer has already been out to the house, drawn the space and permits have been applied for to break load bearing walls as drawn.

Originally i had envisioned a kitchen that was much more open to the conservatory/solarium, but I have had to wind down my plans due to budget constraints. So, we go into demolition of the existing space on December 3rd. I need to either approve these plans my kitchen designer submitted after countless changes from me, or make minor changes which will not affect the structural changes, such as moving sink from bar to island or pantry location. Based on the above, can you advise if you see any way to improve the sink location in the island or refrigerator location? I have given up a built in chopping block and am at peace with that.

I would actually narrow the aisle between the stove and island, so that it's more efficient for the cook, and discourages others from using it as a thoroughfare. To enable this, I would swap the trash and prep sink, so that anyone else using the prep sink can do so from the side of the island. It is best to avoid having a non-cook in the cook's standing space and between the cook and the island prep space. You don't want to turn around with a pot of hot water and turn into someone's back.

I think the warming drawer facing that aisle makes it nicely accessible.

You can have a prep sink in wood counter, if you want to have the sink and wood at the stove end of the island.

I still don't understand that section of desk next to the pantry. Is it reachable?

It is this wierd crawl space under the stairs that is unusable from the floor up to 24 inches high and then has space for storage and a shelf above that, which has an angled ceiling. It is absolutely bizarre, and I had resigned myself to building a cabinet in that small usable portion with a pull-up out shelf that opens at the desk for charging cells, IPads, etc. it can hide all the cables and wires.

I had thought a sink on the corner near the fridge was better but then put it on the right side because that Franke Beach sink is designed to have accessories on the left side of the round small sink bowl. But no biggie, I can find an alternate sink. Any you recommend for this space at the end of an island?

Does the additional 24 inch pantry where the fridge used to be make sense? And then the 36 inch accessory garage with cabinetry above and drawers below make sense? I have 65.5 inches of wall space before I have the wall disappear on that wall, and the upper counter starts. Pretty sure I can move the sink over to the left and free up counter space to the right of the sink. Does the dishwasher work in that location?

What width works between the cooktop and island edge where sink will be? Does a wood block that is raised on that end allow for a sink at comfortable height? My kitchen designer says you don't want the soapstone and chopping block at the same height.

Finally, the island length dropped to 90 inches in my sketch to stop the indentation. Is that smart or will I regret those extra SF on my island?

If you look at what is drawn, the only structural change is the opening to the conservatory is a little smaller. Here, the actual cabinets and their layout aren't part of the permits.

You're trying to do prep in 18" beside the island sink? Or you're doing prep standing in the traffic aisle? I'm not sure what you're thinking or why you think the sink/ref positioning is better? Is the conservatory still the dining space?

Any you recommend for this space at the end of an island?

I like the look of round ones for spaces like this, but squarish would work, too. If you use one that's approx 16-18", you have 27-30" left for prep facing the stove. My island is the same width and I prep to the side of my sink, just across from the stove.

Frankly, I'm not sure about having pantry space over where the fridge used to be, and think it'd be aggravating to have the pantry storage split and on opposite sides of the kitchen like that. I meant to ask if that was a good place for the appliance garage... As in is that a good area to use those appliances, or will you be hauling them all over the kitchen? Seems kind of out of the 'prep and cooking loop,' in which they'd usually be used. Besides, they're taking up what could be great storage for dishes, flatware, glassware, and serveware (bowl sets, platters, pitchers, etc, etc). The pantry can be partly used for those things, I guess, but it's nice to have attractive, dedicated space and those things seem to take a lot of room.

There are a couple of round prep sinks shown in pics on this thread:
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0121162614266.html

Also, my kitchen is linked, showing my prep sink on my 48" (+counter overhang) island.

Here is a link that might be useful: Possible prep sinks

Thank you for the links, and now I understand your name (which stands for Our Home For Ten) should any of you lurkers wonder what rhome10 means. I agree the round sinks looks good and would introduce some much needed curves to my very angular kitchen.

Is there a recommended depth and gauge of steel if I go that route? Also, I plan to use a Blanco Precis Silgranite 32 inch sink as my clean up sink, should I use their round matching sink? It is only 15 inches in diameter.

Is there a faucet that rotates out of the way, so you can turn it around from the sink when you are using the sink for entertaining purposes? To hold bottles of wine or shrimp or who knows what?

The neck of our prep sink faucet turns so that it would be out of the way of the sink. It doesn't have a spray function, so I wouldn't choose it again, but there must be others that will turn similarly.

You might mock up a 15" circle and see if your pots and colander will fit. Looking at the specs for our sink, it is 7 1/2" deep and approx 14" x 15 1/2" inside. You'd lose the space in the corners, but the 15" would have about the same clearance.

16 or 18 gauge would probably be fine. The finish and actual composition might be more important, so that you're not always fighting to keep it looking nice. I don't know much about stainless sinks.

What do you prefer for your sink material? I found a neat stainless Franke that needs a 24 inch cabinet and has 19 x 17 inch interior bowl. The circular sinks don't have the grids and cutting board/colander inserts that look very efficient.

The only stainless sinks I've had were cheap level ones, so small double bowls and lots of spotting...which all left a bad taste in my mouth. I think there are decent ones out there, but might still need wiping a lot? So many people love them, they can't be that bad?

The granite composite sinks look pretty nice, but having never had one, I sometimes wonder if they would look plasticky. I think that's just my imagination playing tricks. The dark ones, particularly, look so nice in photos shown here on the forum. I've long wished I'd considered a Silgranite SuperSingle for my main sink instead of my Kohler Clarity, that although they're roomy, has 2 bowls. With a prep sink, I find no need to have 2 bowls in the cleanup sink. I like the look of cast iron, but I have to admit, even when thoroughly scrubbed, after 5 yrs, they have marks that remain.