Khj- Your pictures are disappearing...did you erase them?

Have you ever thought of putting the oven under the cooktop? Since you use them at the same time, it might make more sense. Would there be enough room, with the island? I broil now, in a raised oven and I hate it! It's great for cookies, but not so good for things that splatter..in my eyes.

What about moving the single door, down closer to the pantry/snack side? Maybe lining it up more with the corridor (more like the two door version)? Then, put the fridge where the center door is now, then a microwave in the upper cabinet area. This would leave you landing space by the fridge, then the corner, then the cooktop/oven sink area.

On the other side, you could have the sink and second dishwasher, the second microwave, pantry and undercounter fridge. This would get all of your appliances on one side (out of the traffic pattern) but still leave the big fridge/freezer close to the snack area.

Since you're the only cook, one of the main goals should be to cut down on how much you have to walk around, to prepare a meal. Hopefully, moving the fridge a little closer to you, on your side of the walkway, will help do that.

Moving the door would also guide traffic around the island, rather than having the doorway even with the island. This would probably make a better flow and with large crowds, make it easier for people to enter and exit the kitchen. What do you think? :)

Thank you for your input, Lavender lass.

I did think of having the oven under cooktop but because of the configuration I have decided on , that is 30 " Miele induction and 15 Wolf gas cooktop, it is difficult. Also I was told by the appliance sales person that the under cooktop ovens are really low compared to a range oven and very inconvenient. I though of getting an induction range but I do need the gas at times for the cooking I do. I do love the ease of cleaning of induction after I tried out with a portable induction cooktop. I thought of putting the wolf 15" next to the range but the look is all wrong because it looks very unbalanced underneath a 48" vent.

I did think of only one entry at the side of the pantry however was advised against by 2 designers because they said that restricts flow to the entertaining area. The kitchen would be closed off from the entertaining area and only way to interact with guests on foyer side would be to walk around a 12 feet wall with entry into kitchen which is close to mud room. They said it will be inconvenient and I will appreciate the 2 doorways the first time I will have a party. They said there will be a more open feel and the kitchen will not seem so isolated from rest of the house if I go with 2 doorways. They did not like having to go thru a long narrow hallway to get to the kitchen from most of the house.

I am quite confused and having sleepless nights about what to do. I understand their point of view but also concerned about kitchen being exposed to foyer. If I could do over again then I would have designed the house completely differently. But I have to live with it now and am trying to choose between the lesser of 2 evils.

I am nervous that once I build the kitchen with single entrance on pantry side and I hate it then it would be harder to break the wall. Hence I though of the pocket door which I could close off the kitchen from the foyer side when I do need privacy from the front door.

The 2 designers are very certain that I will prefer the ease of flow with an opening close to foyer side also as then it is a direct walk to the upstairs, downstairs, etc. When I am cooking and don't want to be disturbed then close off the pocket door. Though they think I won't really use it that much.

The builder thinks it is a stupid idea. So I am getting conflicting opinions.

The designers and the cabinet maker are against the central opening as they are very tight corners and inconvenient with the appliances.

I just spoke to my friend who was opposed to the 2 doorways with ref/oven in center. After thinking about it, she now favors that configuration as she thinks having the ref closer might be better.

What do you think? Would I be making a mistake having the kitchen partly exposed to foyer? Are you ok with the look of ref/oven in center as in option #2?

Really hoping to get some more opinions and if anybody has seen a kitchen with that configuration.

I'm not sure why you're not getting more responses, because you have a very interesting kitchen challenge! Hopefully, more people will get curious and add their ideas and suggestions.

Considering everything you've told me, I think option 2 might be your best choice. I like it MUCH better than option 1, since the fridge and oven doors do not block your doorways, when they're open. Instead, they open toward the island.

I can see the advantage to the second door, but I would definitely make it a pocket door. Then, if you want to close the kitchen off from the front, you can. If not, it does provide easier access to other parts of your home.

Honestly, I think you have a very nice floor plan...and that you're going to love your home, once you move in. I think my favorite part is the way the family area is open to the kitchen, but it's not a huge family room. It seems much more inviting (and charming) with all the windows...and the big living room will actually get lived in.

Your formal dining room will be beautiful and perfect for holiday dinners! I think you should put your feet up and relax, it sounds like your getting close to your final kitchen plan (which will also be beautiful) and then let us know what you plan to use for your backsplash, countertops, cabinetry accents, colors for the dinette/family room, etc. I'd love to see all your details! :)

i like the house plan very much, it has open flow which i like quite a bit.
my 2cents?
i prefer to have the fridge next to a little micro and toaster oven for leftovers. add cups and glasses for beverages and the kids have a pretty complete snack center out of your command center but within your view.
you can still have your chef's micro near your range, micros are cheap!
hth, i think it will be lovely to live in!

Lavender, you are such a dear always replying to my posts and raising my spirits. Thank you also to fallingwaters for the positive comments.

I too was wondering why I was not getting any responses and feeling quite dejected. Am I doing something wrong?

Fallingwaters, which plan were you referring to? Was it #1? I plan on having 2 microwaves, one close to cooktop and one on the pantry wall, either next to fridge as in option 1 or at snack/breakfast bar in option 2.

Lavender, as far as cabinet style, they will be mission style alder wood with lighter stain. I was thinking of black granite at the periphery and a giallo florrito for the island. I was also contemplating staining the island darker.

Here are some alternate layouts...they all have pros & cons, but I like them better than the 2-door layouts from above. Also, I was trying to keep to only one corner to maximize space on the walls, make it more wheelchair-friendly, and b/c the fewer corner cabinets, the better!

Unfortunately, I don't have time for an in-depth analysis of each one. However I had a few goals in mind when I came up with them...

(1) Separate the Prep & Cooking Zones from the Cleanup Zone
(2) Try to keep the Snack Center somewhat separate from the the other zones, in particular the Prep & Cooking Zones
(3) Minimize zone-crossing (e.g., try not to have to cross the Cleanup Zone while prepping & cooking
(4) Minimize obstacles b/w the refrigerator and the Prep & Cooking Zones...this was not always possible as you can see in Layout #2, for example, where the Cleanup Zone and the DW Drawers are b/w the refrigerator and the Prep & Cooking Zones.
(5) Provide enough prep space for 2 or 3. You may find that you'll need it once your in-laws move in and/or your children begin helping out in the kitchen (you have train them early!)
(6) All aisles, except one in Layout #2, are at least 42", so it should be wheelchair-friendly. Additionally, all corners are more then the minimum 36" width for turning a wheelchair. Note the sole exception in Layout #2 still has a 40" aisle.

Note that in layouts 1, 3, & 4 the sink in the Snack Center really isn't needed b/c another sink is so close by. If that sink were eliminated, it would free up counter space for a toaster oven and/or toaster. Alternately, you could place another sink in the island as shown in layout #4.

I'm assuming, btw, that the pantry door cannot be moved... If it could be moved to the right (toward the "post"), it would open up other possibilities that would make the Snack Center even better. If it's not a load-bearing wall, it's pretty easy to move a doorway...even a load-bearing wall isn't all that difficult, you just have to be sure to build the header support.

Wow! Now you have some new options :)

Thank-you Buehl for the plans. I will show them to dh. He was inclined towards the 2 door option #1 last I discussed with him.

I will have to find out if the cooktop can be vented in the corner. The other walls in the kitchen except for the one adjacent to the living room would require the duct for the hood to go down and out thru the basement for a run of 40 feet. It gets so complicated with the joists, microlambs, etc.

I will ask about pantry too. I think electrical and hvac in that area is done. There are vents going up to the bedrooms in the pantry wall. I will find out though.

I'm not suggesting changing any pantry walls, just moving the door to the end of the wall run instead of being in the middle and cutting the space in two. The inside walls would remain the same. Unless you mean the wall shared by the pantry & kitchen has the HVAC...

As to venting the cooktop, b/c of the angle wall build-out, you should be able to go into that angled area and then straight out the exterior wall.

Cool plans, you're going to have fun (right? ;-) choosing the best one for your home.

FYI, corner cooktop/ranges require extra attention (and perhaps extra cost) to make sure all the pieces fit well together in the end. To learn more, read these blog posts by CMKBD Kelly Morisseau:

A reader asks: A cooktop or range in the corner?

A Design Reader Asks: Help with range in the corner?
May not be applicable to your situation so this is a "just in case" link.

Khj- You know, as far as looks, I really like your option 4, too. The undercounter fridge is very close to the main fridge, but this is more for drinks, right? Have you ever thought of an undercounter fridge or refrigerator drawer at the end of the counter (on the right of the cooktop) for cooking essentials? You know, butter/margerine, cream, milk, cheese, etc. Things you want to be able to grab, if you're stirring a sauce and can't walk away from the cooktop.

Is there a second microwave next to the fridge? I can't tell from the picture, but I'm guessing there might be. This makes a great snack area/prep area and second clean-up area. You still have the area on the other side of the pantry for drinks and party/buffet overflow.

All of your plans work well (as do Buehl's) but after thinking about it and really looking at everything...your plan 4 is very appealing. I probably sound a little fickle (I like so many plans LOL) but this one has a good flow and it's very pretty! :)

I have quite a few problems w/Option #1:
The cooktop is unprotected from through-traffic
All three primary zones (Prep, Cooking, Cleanup) share the same floor space making it more difficult for more than one person to work in the kitchen
The island is somewhat of a "barrier island" b/w the main sink and refrigerator
The main sink will end up being shared by both the Prep & Cleanup Zones b/c it's much closer to the cooktop than the secondary sink. The secondary sink on the center wall is much too far away to be useful for prepping and cooking. This means there will be a conflict of floor & counterspace b/w the Prep Zone & Cleanup Zone.
Whether you plan it or not, your Prep Zone will be on the island to the right of the sink...the non-DW drawers side. The problem is, there's not much prep space to the right of the sink in the island...24". That's really not much at all...I had that in my old kitchen and hated how I had to constantly move things around while working. Yes, you could use the other side of the sink, but that's your Cleanup Zone (where the DW drawers) and should be reserved for stacking dirty dishes (and dishes will end up there when either the sink is full or you need the sink for prepping). Additionally, the Cleanup Zone side is farther away from the cooktop where most prepped food will go next.

As to the blog posted above...Yes, Pythagorean theorem does apply, and I applied it. 60" is closer to what you'll need in your case. It may be a bit less or a bit more, but this is an approximation.

Yes, it's a bit more work than a straight installation, but it can work great. Check out Sharb's corner range (yes, it's a range, not a cooktop, but the installation basics are the same). Note the angled wall.

SharB's Kitchen Pictures
Thread: My [SharB's] finished kitchen

You do have room for the corner cooktop...witness the fact that you have over 57" of counterspace on one side and over 27" on the other side with the corner cooktops.

Another option is a corner oven....here's what that might look like... Note that I also put in an alternate Snack Center if you can move the Pantry door...

Alku05, among others, has a corner oven:
Thread: Wall ovens in the corner...thoughts?

With Zones & Centers identified:

Oven pulled forward:

One note: If you decide to go with a corner appliance (cooktops or ovens), many GC and KDs will try to talk you out of it b/c it's more work for them...they have to be more careful w/measurements and cannot just blithely say they added filler to make up for any "discrepancies" b/w their measurements and the actual space (read that as "mistakes"!). I...

Khj- If you do like your plan 4, would you think about putting glass upper cabinets doors above the second sink, for dishes? That would be very attractive and give you a little sparkle on that end of the kitchen, which you could see from the family room. I have to admit, prettier than the big fridge :)

Did you say you're putting wine glasses above the beverage area/undercounter fridge? That would be a nice place for glass upper cabinet doors, too! Maybe a little coffee area for DH? If he likes coffee that might win him over! LOL

buehl, I wasn't questioning your math or plans. I only wanted to point to information about the issues to consider with a corner range/cooktop set-up because this is a less common arrangement. I'd do the same, as would any of us, if someone were setting up a corner sink with the DW right next to it - as one would if both were lined up on the same wall - leaving them very little room to stand at the sink when the DW door is open. I figured the OP would rather know what to watch for in advance, not say "if only I'd known" afterwards.

DH is looking into if venting is possible from the corner. He does not think so because he remembers being told that there are microlambs in that area and would not be able to cut thru joists. We both don't understand these technical issues so he will find out. If we keep the vent where it is then the duct will go into living room ceiling and then cut thru joists and out above the living room window. There is a plumbing pipe in the way but they will use an adapter to get around it. They tell us that except for that location, all other would require us to go down into the basement.

If I put the oven in the corner then would the door hit the person on left of cooktop? I usually do most of my work to the left of cooktop since I am right handed and like to be close to food cooking, to stir, etc. So if somebody needs to use the oven beside me then would I always have to move away?

That was my hesitancy with option 4 in my original 4 plans. In order for me to fit a sink and dw then I have to move oven closer to the corner which would result in about foot between oven and edge of countertop to left of cooktop. I think if I had atlest 2 feet there then it would be ok. But then I could not have a dw on the other side. I am sure you must be confused with my explanation because I am confused while explaining.

DH will find out if we can move the pantry door. He remembers there are heat vents on the wall behind the beverage fridge, so he is not sure if it is possible. Also we may not be able to have shelves on all 3 sides unless we eliminate the planning desk in the family room. It would be nice if we could move the pantry door if possible.

The reason dh wanted to go with 2 openings was to open up the narrow hallway between kitchen and basement stairs. That hallway is just 3 ft wide and has a tunnel effect. So he thinks maybe having an additional opening might lessen the effect. Also it would be more convenient to dining room.

What did you think about option 2 of original plans with ref and oven between 2 doorways? If dh is bent on 2 doorways, would that be better? Then I could put a 24 inch sink at the snack bar, as a clean up area that is out of cooking/prep area. That would also allow larger work area on either side of the cooktop. So essentially, it would divide the kitchen into one side for the cook and the other side for the non-cooks which is mostly everybody else. I could close the pocket door for the 1-2 hours that I am cooking to eliminate traffic going thru cooking zone. However, I am very concerned about the look.

Also, I do see your point regarding having only 24 inch next to the big sink in island. Would I be able to cover portion of the sink with a cutting board to increase the prep area and then remove it for clean up. My current kitchen is L-shaped with the sink close by and it is so convenient to take pots from stove to clean up sink. I am a little nervous about walking back and forth 12 feet to clean up...

Khj- So, as far as space for the oven, DH's preference for two doorways, cooktop staying in the best location, and having a nicer view than the fridge between the two doorways...your Option 1 looks like the best choice.

Now, how do we make that work a little more efficiently...and make it as pretty as possible? I think the second sink work well there, since you are sometimes the one doing the dishes, too. It also gives you a great place to put a few extra dishes, while you're cooking and keep them off the island. This will give you more room around your larger, island sink.

Since the area between the two doors is such a focal point, what about glass upper cabinet doors? I would keep the tops of the uppers all the same height and have the glass for display. Make it feel almost like a hutch, which would be very nice, in that location...also on the way to the dining room.

The undercounter fridge would stay in the same location, but again, glass upper cabinet doors would look nice here, too. The glass will give you a little sparkle, to balance the stainless steel.

Another great focal point is your cooktop. What a beautiful place for a little fancier backsplash. What did you say you were planning to use?

As for the island, I think you have plenty of room on each side of your sink, since your second sink is only a few steps away. This is still a wonderful place to visit with people, while you're cooking...not to mention (hopefully) a view of your fireplace. Also, getting those kids in the kitchen, might encourage them to help more...including clean up. Give them the pots and pans and if they don't do it right the first time, they can do it again. Practice makes perfect...or so my mom used to say! LOL

I still think a little fridge drawer by the cooktop might be a nice idea, but that depends on whether you need any items closer to the cooktop. Do you make a lot of sauces? Do you need a few items close to hand? If not, then the big fridge is fine...but something to think about.

Now, there have been some concerns about this plan, but I think the pocket door will keep people out of your cooking/prep area, during parties. The second sink and dishwasher are very close, so you can even stack dirty dishes on that counter (while you're cooking) and have the kids(!) load the dishwasher, while you're getting dinner ready, or after you've finished dinner. Also a lot closer, when clearing the dining room table, which you may use more often than you think.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that no plan is perfect. There's always going to be something we think...oh, I should have done this or gotten that, but all we can do is make it the best plan for our particular situation. What might work great for one person, might be all wrong for someone else. Just remember that it's your kitchen and you'll be the one using it the most. If something (no matter how practical it may be) is not going to be what you...

Lavender, I am very confused as to what to do. I do prefer the l-shaped layouts that Buehl has drawn for the kitchen. But I also agree with what the designer and dh are saying. I won't know what works till I live there but then it will be too late. That's why I ask the opinions of everyone here because everyone has a wealth of knowledge and experience to share.

I see kitchens posted on this site and I love many of them. Many are smaller but actually have more counter space and are more functional. I love Buehl's kitchen with the 2 peninsulas and if I could fit that in my plan then I would. I saw the post of DrJoann's kitchen and I love it too. Her kitchen is beautiful and functional. If you notice she has as many doorways as mine does but they are placed in a such a way that they look good and there is enough counter space at each area.

I just can't win with my kitchen. I have to choose between functionality in the kitchen vs flow to other rooms vs. aesthetics.

Buehl, if I do the corner oven, would there be enough space between cooktop and oven? Does anybody else have this setup and how do you like it?

Does anybody have a ref that is 12 feet from cooktop? Does it drive them crazy?

Lavender, I will look into the ref drawers, but I think they are quite expensive. I don't know also where to fit them in in any of my original plans that they would be close to the cooktop.

If this were your home, which kitchen would you choose?

Okay, if it were me, I would make one wide door, with the access going between the island and the pantry. It's a few extra steps, but it's a better traffic pattern and you get rid of a door. Well placed lighting (on dimmers when you don't want it too bright) will take care of the dark hallway. It also screens your kitchen from the foyer.

This leaves you a nice L-shape layout (which is my favorite) with the oven/microwave and cooktop on one wall and the fridge on the other. The space in between is a great place for prep. I would put the dishwasher on the island, then the big sink, then the trash.

I wouldn't put any of the appliances on an angle, since you lose the space behind them...and I don't like that it crowds you into corner of the island...but then, I have curved edges on my coffee table, because I hate bumping into corners! LOL

I would make the island smaller, to give you the 42" to 48" between your walkways, depending on what's easiest for you. Islands don't move, so be sure you can open the fridge and oven, without being too cramped. This would leave three seats at the island and more can sit in the dinette...by all those beautiful windows.

The second microwave, dishwasher and sink, I would put in the snack area, between the doorway and the pantry. The other side of the pantry, I would keep as the beverage center, with the undercounter fridge and glass upper cabinets, for glassware, display, etc.

If you don't like the stainless steel fridge, maybe put cabinet panels on it, to have it blend in with the cabinetry...like the dishwashers. I would not worry about space around the main sink. With two dishwashers, the dirty dishes can go right in.

Anyway, that's what I would do, if I was working within your home plan. I wouldn't want traffic between my refrigerator, sink, cooktop or oven. The fridge is close to the snack area, as is the undercounter fridge...and there's two sinks, two dishwashers and two microwaves, so if the kids do start helping out, there's no excuse to be in your main work area.

Sorry this is such a mess...and I should have put 42" to 48" between the aisles, but hopefully, you get the idea. Oops! I just noticed my scanner cut off the third stool, on the end of the island :)

{{gwi:618189}}

Sorry to make such a mess of Buehl's pretty plan!

One kitchen I really like is the Sarah Richardson farmhouse kitchen...especially the island with seating. Just scroll down to the kitchen pictures...and it does have the stainless steel fridge. It's a very cheerful kitchen and while it may not be your style, maybe it will give you some good ideas :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Sarah's Farmhouse Kitchen

Thank you Lavender for the drawing. Showed it to dh who is being stubborn. He is somehow bent on the 2 doorway.
Still working on him though.

His concern with the oven on the end was a closed in feeling and blocking of view to great room windows. I am ok with it though. What are your thoughts?

Would you tell me what the dimensions are of the L walls?

The Sarah Richardson farmhouse kitchen is beautiful. I don't mind stainless steel ref at all. I think they break up the wood cabinetry well. I was just concerned about the look of ref and oven together.

If dh makes me choose one of the 2 doorway kitchens, which one would you choose? I prefer the functionality of ref and oven in center and also that may allow us to get rid of that door and put cabinets and make it to l-shaped if we don't like the 2 door option after we live there. If it looks alright and then I just may go for it. If it looks stupid then I may go with the other option of cabinets in center or try convincing dh with L shaped kitchen.

The cabinets at the beverage center will be glass.

Khj- I have the oven/microwave next to my cooktop right now...and it's one of my favorite things about my current kitchen. It's really easy to grab things out of the oven and set them on the cooktop and I like the way it makes a "stop" at the end of the cooking area. It's a great place to set some extra cannisters and spices...and it blocks a bit of my "cooking mess" from the rest of the room. The oven only sticks out a few inches further than the counter, so it makes a nice little work area.

I'm not sure what the dimensions are, since I couldn't read the dimensions on the plans, very well. I think Buehl's plan is 1 square = 6 inches...but it should be close to your current plan. I just moved the cooktop over, to make room for the oven/microwave, which I think is about 30" wide. The doorway to the hall can be as wide as you want, but I think the one in the plan is about 4'.

I'm glad you like the stainless steel fridge. Isn't that a cute kitchen? I love the little seating area at the end.

I would choose the doorway that doesn't go through my traffic pattern. Maybe tell DH that if the single doorway doesn't work out, he can always put a door through the middle of your prep area...if he still thinks you need one...which I don't think he will :)

If you decide the doorway would be bettter on that side, I would flip the work space around and try to move the pantry door to the end of the cabinet run. I just don't think people walking between your cooktop and sink is a good idea. The main problems with this idea, are moving the pantry door...and moving the cooktop, which I believe you said was not very easy to do.

I'm glad the beverage center will have the glass...very pretty! :)

Khj- Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving!

While I was up at my mom's (helping with dinner) I was thinking about how well her kitchen is laid out. She got a little manufactured home a few years ago (when she downsized) but the kitchen is HUGE! LOL

It's an L-shape, with a work table, which is one reason I'm designing my kitchen in a similar way. Hers is open through an arch, into the living room and the other part of the L faces her dining area (which is part of the kitchen).

So, I thought I'd include a copy of my little famhouse remodeling plan, which is a similar layout.

{{!gwi}}

I know this is not like your plan, but I just wanted to show you that the L-shape (with a work table or island) does a nice job of directing traffic around your main work area. No matter how large or small your kitchen may be, a good work triangle is really important.

If you're the only cook (or at least the main cook) it's nice to be able to easily reach everything you need...and not have people cutting through your space.

Anyway, good luck with your kitchen plan...and remember, those who cook should get a bigger say in how the space functions! LOL

Take care and have a great weekend :)

Khj- How attached are you to the doorway between the living room and the dinette?

I was looking at your overall house plan...and the doorways to the hall aren't really the problem. It's the doorway to the living room. If you could close that off, it opens up a lot of possibilities :)

First of all, living rooms are almost always better as "dead end" rooms, so that you don't have traffic patterns going through them. You can still easily access the dining room, hall, kitchen and MIL suite...and it would be much easier to set up furniture in your main living room.

The kitchen could slide down toward the windows a bit, giving you a LOT more room and keeping people out of your main work area.

If you look at your option one, imagine that the area between the two doorways is a beautiful buffet, which is very close to the dining room and can hold extra dishes and display.

The snack area/second sink and dishwasher are still to the right of the pantry, with the beverage center and under counter fridge, to the left.

Now, where the oven is on this plan, I would put a broom closet or small pantry, then the fridge, then your oven/microwave and then the cooktop. The great part about this plan, is that the island can be much longer, giving you more space around you main sink and plenty of room for prep. It also gives you a better view of the fireplace and plenty of room for stools.

If you don't like the fridge in this location, you can put it back between the doors, which would still work (as in your option 2)...but I like it closer to your work area :)

Here's a quick sketch. What do you think?

{{!gwi}}

I forgot to mention...I put the cooktop on the end, since your DH was saying it might be more open. If you decide you like the oven/microwave on the end, then you could put the cooktop in the middle (between the fridge and the oven/microwave).

I think I would prefer this layout. I'm not sure of your measurements, so I used your first plan...and just added on a few feet to fill in the doorway.

Well, I hope all this gives you some interesting ideas! Talk to you soon...and thanks for giving me a project, while I'm snowed in today! LOL

{{gwi:2109714}}

Thank you Lavender for thinking up ideas for my kitchen. I welcome all the thoughts.

We did not want to close up the doorway from living room to dinette. There are a row of windows in the living room with a great view and we want to see that from the kitchen. I do like the proximity of the fridge next to cooktop. That's how I have it in my current kitchen and do find it very convenient. That's why I am nervous about the ref being further away.

I do like the l-shaped kitchens but I also see dh's point of view. The hallway is narrow at 3'3". He is concerned about the traffic in and out of the kitchen and in and out of the garage going thru the narrow hallway. The only way to know if this is going to be an issue is after we live there but then it is too late. Sooooo confused!!!!

Another idea by dh. What do you think? He extended the wall next to oven by another foot so that kitchen is not visible from front door. You have to come in to see kitchen. I still am not sure how this will look. What do you think?

Looking at your drawing above from just a kitchen standpoint (not other room issues) I like it. That fridge needs to be near your prep zone like you have it, but yet fridge visitors won't be in your cooking area. Not much feedback, but it's all I got.

I like it! I can see, now, why you want to keep the space open between the dinette and living room...and why DH doesn't want the oven on the window end :)

Are you still putting the pocket door on the smaller entry? That would help keep people out of your workspace, when you are busy at the cooktop.

Why don't you post this latest plan on your post about distance from the fridge. You have people looking at the post, so why not get some feedback on your plan?

Thank you Breezygirl and lavender for your response.

Yes, I would still put pocket door on smaller entry. Do you think that it would look odd that one entry is 30" and the other is 36"? Also would it be too obtrusive to have a fridge next to a doorway?

I will take your suggestion and post it on the other thread.

I would really appreciate all input.

Honestly, I haven't read through this entire string, but I like your most recent layout very much...frig is near the prep and cooking area, there's a separate clean up area and you even get your snack area.

Have you seen my layout? It has some similarities to your original #2 and the latest revision. My ovens are on the end of the side run with 4 feet between them and the cooktop, the fridge and pantry on the end wall, prep sink in the island and opposite wall (the left side) is an exterior door with a sink and 2 DW centered between 2 medium size drawer stacks. I had some reservations about all the cleanup on the far side of the island, but it works fine and I even find a certain satisfaction in clearing things across the island and getting them totally out of the way as a task is completed. I think having both DWs on one wall is far better for loading and unloading dishes and glassware, only having to look in one general area, etc. Rhome410 had 2 DWs located apart from each other before and says that's the reason she put hers together. Something to think about.

I have to leave and haven't looked at all the other suggestions in any depth. I'll try to get back for another look.

I like this last layout too. It looks like a pleasant kitchen to cook in. (And people who've been around here awhile will tell you that I'll say so if I think it isn't!)

I think having two different sized doors looks better. There's a visual cue as to which is which, and it prevents the lady or tiger look that having two similar doors in one wall can have.

Yes, the bulk of the fridge can be a bit imposing, but it depends on what's on the other side of the doorway. It's hard to tell without a floorplan, but it looks, in the elevation, like you have plenty of margin in front of the ovens, and just cabinets on the narrow side. Most ovens nowadays are cool enough on the outside not to worry about having one in a walking area. Because of tight circumstances, my mother did one in the '60's. It blocks the passage when someone is tending the oven, but it's really not the functional problem that people might think. Plus, you have the other door, so people won't be standing and waiting on the oven. Given your parameters, this looks like a good solution.

I'm assuming that these are decent sized aisles? The cooktop side should be at least 42" if you're going to have more than one person in there. Even solitary cooks generally don't want less. The other side should be at the very least 48" wide if you're going to have people seated at the island. That's from counter edge to counter edge, not cupboard face to cupboard face.

As to the one person/several person question from the other thread, there are plenty of work stations and paths in this kitchen. It looks like you have a good work zone next to the stove. Possibly room for two at the island sink, one on each side. Room for another at the clean-up sink. And staging areas both in the beverage zone and the seating side of the island. Yet, in this version, a single cook has access to all the major functions (cold storage, cooking heat, running water, counter space) without barriers or hikes. It's minorly inconvenient to have the island between the cook and the pantry, but that isn't as big an issue. You have plenty of room in the kitchen proper for point of use storage of the kind of staples you don't want to be running to the pantry for like flour, sugar, and oil, plus your most used herbs and spices, wine for cooking, etc.

Two other minor issues I see are the location of the island sink, and the secondary dishwasher. It might just be the perspective of the elevation, but it looks like your island sink is centered. Most people prefer to have the sink offset so that there's a large solid expanse of island top for laying things out, setting up a buffet, doing projects, etc.

Having the mass of the island between the two dishwashers can be crazy making. What if you use a table knife to level the flour or cut some butter? Is it a cooking utensil with your measuring cups? Is it a "dish"? What if you have half a dozen more glasses (given teenagers) than will...

Plllog, the aisles are 48" from cooktop to island and 54" on the other side. This is from cabinet to cabinet.

Good point about the dws. I thought one of us could load the dishes in one dishwasher by the wall and another could wash pots and pans or put them in dw in island. It could make clean up faster. But you do make a good point about using one or the other as overflow and then they would be too far apart. Right now the dw on the island is on the left of the sink so that it does not interfere with cooktop. However I will get dishwasher drawers so maybe this dw could go to the right of the sink in the island and the regular dw to left of sink on pantry wall. This would make the dws a little closer. Would that be better?

I hear ye about the sink in center of island, but because it is the larger sink and has trash and dw on either side, I centered it. Also it allows prep for 2 cooks, 1 on each side of the sink. I will give the sinks and dws some more thought.

On either side of the fridge are the tall shallow cabinets that are 9" in depth but would be 25" wide and would allow storage of all the things you mentioned. I had wanted a standard depth fridge, however that might be too big for the location here. What do you think? Should I go for counter depth or standard depth fridge in this location?

Lascatx, I have not seen your plan. I would love to see it if you could provide me a link.

Thank you all for your input. I do pay attention to all you have to say.

This is the layout of the latest plan.
I am rethinking the sinks and dws. I am trying to get the dws closer. If I get dws on either side of sink, where would I put trash and recycling bin. Would i be able to get a pull out trash under the sink?

Please let me know if there is anything you would change.

Thank you

A two-door plan is obviously the only type of plan your DH will agree to, so based on your current plan, it's not too bad. There are, however, a few issues that you may or may not be able to fix b/c of the limitations the two-door constraint puts on your layout options.

Aisles...Keep in mind there is a 1.5" overhang on all counters. So, if the measurements are cabinet-to-cabinet, then your aisles are really:

• Between island & cooktop: 45"

• Between island & snack area: 51" to 52.5" (depending where on the island the measurement is made from...cab or seating overhang?)

• Between island & refrigerator: no more than 40.5", probably less b/c of the refrigerator (the 42" says cab-to-cab, not cab-to-refrigerator).

  What type of refrigerator is it? If it's built-in then the aisle is probably 39" to 40" b/c of the handle. However, if the refrigerator is counter-depth (CD), then that aisle is now 34" or so. Why? Because CD refrigerators are really approx 30" deep when doors and handles are included (some are 31" deep). It's only the carcass/box that's CD, not the entire refrigerator. So you need to count the extra 6" or so that will be in the aisle. So, 42" - 1.5" island overhang - 6" refrigerator = 34.5" If you also need one inch of air clearance/plug room/anti-tip device space behind the refrigerator, the aisle is now down to 33.5". As you an see, that aisle is now too narrow...definitely not handicap-friendly!

  If the refrigerator is standard-depth, then the aisle will be even less b/c standard-depth refrigerators are generally 33" to 36" deep.

Dishwashers...Are you sure you want to split them? Those here who have done that have either regretted it or it was something they were fixing with the remodel. The problem is that you cannot guarantee everyone will put the "right" stuff in the "right" DW...so you could be searching two DWs in two very different locations for the utensil or dish you're looking for.

The DW in the island...is it on the curved end of the the island (Dinette end)? It should be b/c you don't want it opening into the cooktop's floor space, into the legs of someone working there, or in the path b/w the cooktop & sink (major tripping hazard if someone is trying to drain a pot of pasta, for example).

Just read your response to Plllog about the DWs. (I left the info above for an "additional voice".) Yes, it would probably be better to put the DW Drawers on the other side of the main sink, but then they will be in the Prep Zone and opening into the cooktop...not generally recommended for the reasons stated above.

Part of the problem is the rather narrow aisle you have b/w the cooktop and island. Why narrow? Because you're cramming all the primary zones into one area while the rest of the kitchen and counter space is unusable for those zones b/c they're either too far away from a water source or too far away period. You have the Prep & Cleanup Zones on the island and right behind them, on the...

Or...what about one of these?

Layout A...only if the pantry door can be moved.

...

Layout B

Buehl's Plan A looks great! I agree, the dishwashers seem to work better together and out of your cooking area.

Plan B is nice too, but I like how streamlined everything looks in the first plan.

Khj- Can you move the pantry door? I love the way you made the fridge look so built in...nice job :)

Thank you Buehl for the plans. I do like Plan A as it definitely gives a more streamlined look as Lavender mentioned. Unfortunatetly, I can't move the pantry door. I really wish I could have as that would have looked much better and would have given a continuous work space.
I think it does make more sense to keep dws together. So I think I will make that change.
Good point regarding the ref aisle space.

Are the below plans any better if I were to convince dh to stick to one door?

Khj- I like your second plan...but I think Buehl's plan B is better, because there's still the second door, to keep people from walking through your cooking area.

These plans look very nice, but everyone is going to be walking right between your sink and your cooktop.

If you can't move the pantry door, it still will look very nice, with Buehl's plan B. I'd put solid uppers over the dishwashers and glass uppers over the beverage center...to make it look like you wanted separate spaces, divided by the pantry :)

Lavender_Lass is right. You should do everything you can to avoid having your Cooking Zone and cooktop in the same aisle as the main path through your kitchen.

If you look at the layouts I did back on Nov 20, you'll see that I always put the Cooking Zone & cooktop out of the (only) path through the kitchen.

Is the cleanup sink still in the island w/the DWs?

If so, it's actually worse b/c you have all the cons of the 2-door layout + you now have the only path through the kitchen passing through those 3 primary work zones.

If not and the Cleanup Zone and cleanup sink are now on the opposite wall, you have at least separated the Cleanup Zone from the Prep & Cooking Zones but you still have the issue of the only path passing through the Prep & Cooking Zones along with the prep sink being on the island so you have to cross that busy aisle (workers + through traffic) with that pot of boiling water.

With a 1-doorway layout, you really need to get that cooktop and Cooking Zone out of the aisle leading to/from that doorway.

If you noticed when I posted layouts A & B, I stressed that you should keep the pocket door closed so traffic is directed away from the aisle with the Prep Zone, Cooking Zone, and cooktop. (Probably something your DH did not want to hear!)

After what Lavender and Buehl said about the 2 last plans, I started rethinking. I looked at #3 of Buehl's layouts done on Nov 20. I don't know if it is possible to vent the cooktop on that wall between the studs, up the 2nd flr, attic and out thru the roof, but if it is then is this layout better.

Dh was concerned about the 3' hallway on the other side of kitchen and how it restricts traffic back and forth from kitchen to garage and kitchen to rest of the house. Hence he wanted the 2 doorways so that there is another way if there is cross traffic. But if you think this is a better plan then maybe I can try to convince him.

Would appriciate your thoughts.

Khj- We were discussing a similar situation on another thread. Two dishwashers can be more convenient together, but if one is for mixing bowls, utensils, pots and pans...and the other is for dishes, glasses, silverware...then the two dishwashers can be in separate locations.

It only gets confusing when you start mixing them together...and then have to walk all over the kitchen, to put stuff away.

I think my favorite plan so far (given your building restrictions and DH's input) is Buehl's latest Plan B. It's really an excellent plan and I think you would love cooking in it.

The only thing I might change is to put one of the dishwashers, by the prep sink in the island, just for pots/pans/mixing bowls and utensils. This way, you can clean up as you're cooking...but DH (or maybe kids?) can load the dishes after dinner, into the clean up area, by the pantry.

This also gives you excellent dish storage area, by the dishwasher and close to the beverage center. Easy for other people to help/clean/or prepare snacks out of your main work area.

I would also keep the two doors and leave the pocket door by the cooking area. You can close that off during parties and also close off the mess. When you're not cooking, you can leave that door open, for more light.

So, Khj, can you see yourself in that kitchen? Can you visualize all your finishes? Working in the space? Making dinner or setting out a buffet? If so, I think you have a winner! :)

You're very close to a workable layout!

One very important comment about extending the wall the refrigerator is against...if the wall extends past the refrigerator carcass/box, you will need approx 12" between the wall and refrigerator to allow the doors to open fully. This means you will not have room for that 18" trash cabinet. You will need:

Wall + 1" filler + 12" + 42" refrigerator + 6" + 24" DW + 36" sink base + 24 DW + 1.5" counter overhang.

I know you & your DH are concerned about the hall width (3') and traffic passing through making it claustrophobic.

Yes, 3' isn't particularly wide, but how much traffic do you expect going through the longer section? This is what I see as major traffic patterns:

Notice where most of the traffic will be, I think...where the hall, LR, and Foyer all come together. That tells us that (1) the best place for the kitchen door is where you have it so most of the traffic is not going down that hall and (2) not as much traffic will be going down that hall at one time.

This is also why I didn't like the cooktop & Cooking Zone on that aisle, btw, unless the aisle was quite a bit wider.

...I hit "submit" rather than "preview"...here is the corrected text...

One very important comment about extending the wall the refrigerator is against...if the wall extends past the refrigerator carcass/box, you will need approx 12" between the wall and refrigerator to allow the doors to open fully. This means you will not have room for that 18" trash cabinet. You will need:

Wall + 1/2" filler (if no door trim) + 12" + 42" refrigerator + 6" + 24" DW + 36" sink base + 24 DW + 1.5" counter overhang.

If you have door trim around the doorway, you will need 2" of trim to clear the trim. I suggest no door trim! (Make it an opening rather than a doorway.)

[The rest is fine]

And...here's the way it will probably work based on your latest layout with a few "tweaks"...

What did I "tweak"?

• 27" deep counter for your 45" wide Snack Center

• Move the door a little bit toward the refrigerator to allow a better safety zone b/w the doorway & the cooktop (the refrigerator & sink are still hidden from view from the Foyer...it's still approx 36")

• Widened the doorway to 45" b/c I think it's going to be a busy doorway (BTW...even if you have two doorways, it's still going to be the busiest doorway b/c of its relationship to the Foyer, LR, Kitchen, DR, & Study plus the kitchen is the only direct path to the FR and Dinette)

• Added the filler & 12" tall cabinet b/w the wall and refrigerator

• Added overhang for the two seats on the end of the island (which reduces the drawer banks you showed)

• Arranged the seating with enough lateral (24" per seat) as well as knee space/overhang (15") with no overlapping of knee space

Note: Be careful how close you get to the column...you should aim for 36" to 48" b/w the island and the column if there is no seating on the end, 48" to 54" if there is. (Seating needs a minimum of 32" behind it for space for those sitting there. When you add an aisle, you need at least 18" more...preferably 30".)

Buehl- I LOVE this plan! No more walking between the cooktop and the sink...and the pantry is actually HANDY to the cook in this plan :)

The fridge is close to the cooktop, but still handy for snacks. The oven/microwave is close to the cooktop. The clean up area is closer to the dining room and eating space in the kitchen. The beverage center is close to the family room and easy to access, without walking through the work area. The prep sink is close to the cooktop...and you still have a big doorway, with your traffic pattern in a MUCH better place.

Khj- If your DH is worried about lighting, install recessed lights on a dimmer in the hallway and keep the doors to the study open...to bring in extra light. If you still need a second microwave, I think it might fit on the island or over the dishwasher...but I'm sure Buehl can find a great place for it! :)

Thank you Buehl for refining the plan and showing us the traffic pattern.
Now I have to see if it is possible to vent the cooktop out thru the roof.

Lavender, I was thinking I would put the microwave above the dw next to ref in a cabinet with doors. Thank you for the suggestions

Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Khj- Good idea about the microwave.

Another thing I LOVE about this plan...most of the people at the island can see your fireplace! How perfect for this time of year...imagine next Christams in your new home! :)

The cooktop should NOT be difficult to vent out through the roof. Since it's against the downstairs hall, your builder should be able to easily work around the vent. It'll probably back up to a bedroom closet of other wall. (At least the vent is not above the island and coming up through the middle of an upstairs bedroom.)

Do you still intend to have a MW over the wall oven as well? I'm asking b/c if you don't then I would not place the MW over the DW next to the refrigerator b/c that will place it too far away from the Snack Center (where the Beverage Refrigerator is) and increase the traffic through the Cooking Zone...something you should minimize. I'm assuming you still intend to use that section of counter w/the Bev Ref as the Snack Center (which I recommend).

If you plan to have the two MWs, then the one by the refrigerator is OK, I guess...but do you really need it? With this layout, the one over the oven is in a good location for both uses...prepping/cooking + snacking. [For snackers, near the Bev Ref, the Snack Center, and Pantry. For prepping & cooking, near the cooktop & Prep Zone, not that far from the main refrigerator, and out of the main path through the kitchen.]