I confess that my biggest issue would be the distance of the ovens from the cooktop, so option 3 is the only one which makes sense to me.

I had a kitchen with the oven across the kitchen from the cooktop and it drove me mad. It does depend on your style of cooking though. Do you ever start things on the cooktop and finish them in the oven? Would you use your oven to keep food warm whilst you finish preparing the meal?

For me, having the ovens that far from the cooktop would be a deal breaker. In option #1, is there any way you can move out the hutch for the wall ovens and then just have tall hutchlike cabs where the wall ovens used to be. That way the wall ovens are at least in quick walking distance from the cooktop.

As I looked at your 3 options, it seems the hutch is what you don't really have the room for. Perhaps, if it is eliminated you will have more options. (I like it though).

I too like #3 the best. In #2, the laundry room entry not aligning would make me crazy. I currently have that with an entrance from my kitchen to my great room and it is one of the things I'm determined to change if my remodel ever gets done. In #3, how much room will you have on either side of your cooktop? Is there any chance of reducing the length of the pantry by maybe a foot? I know it's an existing room and I don't know how it would look to not be aligned with the other DR wall. Just a thought.

I like #1 and #2 best, and since #2 is your favorite that is what I would go with. Comments on #2: The laundry room entrances not lining up would not bother me--in our current renovation they do not and are actually different sizes. Seating distance that is presently in front of the DOs would bother me because of your littles ones, so shortening the island if it would not bother you would be my choice. Not sure what you mean w/ your comment "less open look" as it still looks fairly open to me.

I like the first one or the third one.

With 12 kids, I would not place the wall oven opening into a natural run around in circle area - from a kids point of view. I don't like option three as much because of the truncated area to each side of the cook top. I have somewhat of the same issue with with the ref placement in all of them.

IF YOU'RE REALLY SET, don't read the rest.

Some of the issues in all of the previous comments are surfacing for me and Some cab layout issues - as an example, options one and two have four feet of really tiny base cabinets. I've been trying to write words, but they mounded up and turned into a mountain. In a nutshell, move the dishes closer to the dining room and the ref and oven closer to the cooking zone. I know this isn't everybody's idea of heaven, but I'm lazy and I do not want to walk. The following is a concept sketch, not a plan. It's not meant to solve everything.

{{gwi:1970706}}

Aside from that - you might want to make the storage room asymmetrical and have deeper storage on one side and narrower storage on the other. If you do narrow the dining room entrance a bit, you might be able to do another pocket to the storage room and kill the issue of the doors opening into each other (do you have enough space including the frzr handle?)

I think part of the problem in choosing here (at least for me, since floorplans are much more important than elevations for seeing how things in the layout work together) is that the floorplans are a bit deceptive, scale-wise. For instance, in the stove walls, the run is only increased by 9" when you add the ovens, but comes out much closer to the garage door than the plan without the oven on that wall. Likewise, I was about to say that your baking center didn't look that valuable, since it looked to be about 33" on the plan, then saw on the elevation that it's a very valuable 54" instead.

It may sound petty, but it really affects how things line up and what the paths will be like...and what minor adjustments might be made to make things work better.

All that said, I am a function-first person, and when it comes to things that are pretty far down on the list of priorities, like whether the doors line up for the laundry area, I go with function. It's one of those things that I might second-guess when the kitchen was first finished, then never think of it again, instead enjoying what that little compromise gained me.

Also, I very rarely transfer things from stovetop to oven, and never use mine as a keep-things warm appliance, so carrying from oven to cooktop is close to a non-issue with me. What is nice,though, is to be able to keep my eye on both areas at once while busy at the stove.

If it were me, I'd get rid of the plan with the ovens on the sink wall, because they don't make sense there, you have doubts that they'll really fit, and I don't even like how that tall unit looks crowded in between the window and wall. 3 strikes. :-)

From the 3 you posted I feel 3 definitely functions the best. I actually really like bmore's plan. Have you tried (and I preface this by stating that I"m thinking out loud which I do alot).... a plan where you eliminate the middle window on the bottom and put the cooktop down there flanked by the other two window? You could have a hood go right up and out. I would consider two full size sinks; one in the island for cooking/prep/drinks and one on the west wall with the 2 DW. You could then put the frig and DO on the east wall and maintain a baking counter. Might be a crazy thought... but a thought none the less.

I think I like #2 the best. I rarely (OK, I don't remember ever) start things on my cooktop & then transfer to the oven. So, to me, the location of the wall ovens isn't a big deal. I like the baking center and the fact that it's out of the way of the other cooking. It allows someone to be baking while someone else is cooking w/o them getting in each others way.

I'm sorry, but I don't like Bmorepanic's plan b/c a lot of counter and storage space is lost as well as the loss of several different places to work. With a big family, these are precious commodities!

I wish I had more time to do a detailed analysis of each, but I'm off to visit my dad in the hospital. I'll try to post more later.

You guys are a hard sell! ;o)

Thanks to Rhome's insights, I discovered that I had indeed made a big error with my measurements, and that threw my whole baking center out the window. I was SO discouraged, but I think I might have come up with an alternative plan that could work.

At first, I toyed with moving the kitchen/dining room wall out about thirty inches, toward the window seat in the DR. This would have lessened the width of the room, but there's plenty of space to do that. It would also make one French door open 90 degrees, rather than 180. Fine by me. Unfortunately, that wall is load bearing and completely moving it would be a huge undertaking. As it is, our opening up of this wall in all the layouts shown previously necessitates using a hefty beam to adequately support the two upper floors.

So, I tried a compromise of the two approaches and came up with something that gives the illusion of having moved the DR wall, but the support points in the existing plans are all still in place. In the DR hutch alcove, we could have the builder bring the upper wall out to be flush with the front (essentially a soffit), so the hutch is completely built in. There would be a few inches of dead space behind it, but no one else would know that. I hope that description makes sense.

So, here are two new layouts. The only difference between the two is that one shows the asymmetrical laundry doors, which gives me a longer run of cabinets on the fridge/freezer wall. It also lines up the ends of the cabinet runs and island, which appeals to me. I can't decide how much this laundry door issue matters to me. I guess I have to decide where I like symmetry more! ;o)

A couple other thoughts - I know that the wall oven opening toward island seating isn't *ideal*, but I think it's just one of those things I'll have to learn to work around. Being able to recess it into the pantry and not have to further reduce the size of the island is worth it to me. As before, I could put it on the cooktop wall, but then I run into crowding the entry corner again.

Oh, and we are 90% sure we will be removing the French doors from the dining room. They aren't original to the house (there were pocket doors there originally) and they will make it difficult to fit our new 10 foot table in the space. The hutch is being built from the china cabinet specs in our original blue prints, and I don't want French doors banging into it. ;o) {{gwi:1970707}}From Last Import
{{gwi:1970708}}From Last Import

The position of the fridge and the freezer would drive me nuts unless the frig outside of the pantry includes a freexer. The work triangle is awkward and separtated by your island. I imagine myself running around the island all of the time.

I like your 2nd layout better but have already expressed that the laundry room doors wouldn't bother me if they weren't symetrical as at least one would be closed most of the time. Asymetrical doors seems like such a small price to pay for what you are getting in return.

Regarding the island, in our present kitchen I put a workbench that I purchased in anticipation for use as an island in our new kitchen just to see how it would work--it was just supposed to be in there temporarily. DH first expressed his displeasure about the fact that he would have to walk around it. However, after having it in there several months he, too, likes the usefulness of it and although he does say he would like to be able to not have to walk around it has gotten used to it. Having to walk around it is no big deal to me at all as I love the landing space and prep space that it provides. Again, a small price to pay for the benefits it provides.

Consider switching the wall ovens & refrigerator....that would put the refrigerator closer to the cooking & prepping zones but still be on the periphery so non-helpers will have access. It will also still be accessible from the DR. The new oven location would put the ovens in your Baking Center. (For the sake of symmetry, I would consider making the oven cabinet the same width as the freezer.)

I also like the fact that the freezer is out of the Pantry/School Storage area. Did you give up on the desk in the pantry?

Would you consider replacing the "plate rack" with a built-in, full height book case (w/doors) for storing your home schooling paraphernalia? It would mean increasing the depth to 18" (or maybe 24"), but it would give it a location that is easily accessed from the DR for your school sessions.

The freezer location doesn't bother me as you will most likely be going from the freezer to (1) the sink to thaw, (2) the island for prep, or (3) the MW for cooking...all easily accessed.

Does this help? The blue circles are the zones.

Oh, and I increased the depth of the shelves where the plate rack is.

As to the Laundry Room Doors, is there a reason you like having the doors line up? Do you plan to have the doors open all the time? Personally, I'd keep the doors closed most of the time to hide the laundry...clean or dirty! Oh, and to cut down on the noise the washer & dryer make when running...

I like Buehl's suggestion on swapping the ovens w/ the fridge--I was trying to figure out a way to move ovens as I wasn't crazy about where they were because of the distance to the island to put something down coming out of the ovens.

If the island was flipped, it would work better.

The "official" prep space would be still edge on to the cooking area, but would have better pantry and ref access. Right now, stuff coming from the ref needs to be lifted over people's heads, or dropped into the sink, or walked around to the other side.

(and to buehl, I am one of seven sibs.)

This is the idea I told you I was playing with last night, Worldmom. I'm afraid you'll think it's too closed, but here are the advantages I hope it offers:

*the fr/frz closer to stove/prep area and easily accessible to others, also putting them close to pantry which is logical as far as gathering supplies

*gives you a 'kids get a drink of water' (or fill a pitcher or wash their hands) sink by the dining room

*puts the dishes easily accessible to snack area, island seating, and a straight shot to the dining room, while still pretty close to DWs.

*Moving the hutch gave more room around the doors so I could center the cooktop on the island and fit the ovens in that run while leaving you (I think) 2 ft of space on each side of the cooktop. It's handy to the stove and not all that bad to get to from the snack/baking area. (Mix at counter, load pans on island, put in oven? Cool on island?)

*I also added a small cabinet by the back door on the sink run, which you were originally hoping to use for shoes...Or there's room for a basket or something instead.

The other advantage is not having the tall hutch unit right by the door, making it feel more open.

I know the island seating gums up some of this, but I don't think you can fully utilize the space and not have it gumming up something. I think that there won't be 'sitters' there all the time, and not using all the seats. I'd avoid having seating in the way if I could, but it might just be one of the compromises?

I forgot -

The deal with little kids running thru aisles with ovens is really about them running into the open oven door. Also a problem is when they are trying to run in front of or behind you (or another kid) when hands are full of something going to or from the oven.

Yeah...I was trying to figure a way out of having the ovens in the doorway....but I kept running into having them too far away from the baking center or island to be useful.

Sorry, Bmorepanic, I didn't mean to offend...I'm one of 6 children (an ave of 14 months apart!) and I remember the lack of counter/work space in our kitchen growing up. We had to use the kitchen table as workspace and still kept getting in each others way! So, I guess I'm sensitive to having lots of separate workspace for the various tasks!

I like Rhomes design the best of all I've seen so far. It is the only one which would work for me.

The one change I would make if it were my kitchen (which it isn't) is to remove the hutch in order to have a long worktop, with wall cupboards above. This would make it look more open, and would give you a long run which would be extremely useful.

I really like Rhomes design as well. It gives you all your cooking appliances and fridge within a reasonable walking path and gives the fridge and microwave easy accessibility to the other family members while you are cooking. I think moving the hutch away from the door is a great idea as well to give you more continuous counter space.

It might be a short enough span between freezer side and bathroom back wall that you could remove all the walls around the 3rd sink I added, and the kitchen could be more open to the dining room...and the sink, is, of course, not a necessity, but it looked like a handy spot. Anyway, if it was open, it'd be another long work counter...Maybe useful as a buffet spot, as well.

Beuhl - I love your drawing and suggestions. Thanks so much! The idea to have a bookcase near the dining room for school stuff is ingenious. :o) It wouldn't hold everything we use, but it would hold the basic components of our curriculum, and the rest of the less-used stuff could still go in the pantry. It's also helpful to see the traffic flow and work zones lined out because that's the way I really want to use my kitchen. I think sometimes my ability to think through this stuff is stifled because I've been living with such an awful kitchen for so long. (I really need to post a pic! It will make you laugh!) :oD

Rhome - I think your idea makes the most sense from a logistical standpoint, but one thing I feel like I just have to have in the kitchen is that wide opening. I will be able to make lunch and work on laundry while still keeping an eye on the kids doing their schoolwork. I know from experience that when they know I'm not watching, they tend to wander. ;o) As an aside, we actually finished our basement in preparation for our first year of homeschooling, complete with art area, floor-to-ceiling bookshelves, a comfy sectional for reading, wall-mounted flat screen TV for watching school videos, computers and desks, play area for the little guys, etc., but after that first year, I just couldn't stand it anymore! Every time I'd have to run upstairs to switch a load of laundry or start on a meal or something, chaos would ensue. It has worked so much better for us to be on the main floor together. I'm *really* looking forward to having our spaces more integrated.

Thanks for all the input, everyone. I'm feeling a lot more optimistic about all of this now. I just hope these changes aren't going to cost us an arm an a leg and that they're actually feasible! :o)

I sure know what happens when Mom leaves the school room.

I don't want to sound petty and defensive of my plan or criticize anyone else's, but am only trying to discuss...I think the opening in mine is about a foot or so narrower than Buehl's, but if you took out the walls around the sink, the opening to look through into the dining room would be about 7 ft wide. I guess you could also move the freezer back to the pantry. I sure would try to avoid having the oven opening into the dining room doorway.

Here are other options I worked up. I like some better than others:

My last plan, but with the walls opened around the sink for better visibility into dining room:

Fridge and freezer moved back to left wall...maybe too far from stove, but baking center usable from 2 sides and handy to oven:

Freezer back in pantry, fridge centrally located. Lots of countertop:

Fridge and freezer as set with load-bearing wall in between...Pantry doorway set back. Oven opening into busy path, but not hemmed in by doorway or island.:

I was just thinking about shortening the pantry! It eliminates the heat problem in the pantry; there is less room around the cooktop...but there's plenty of work space around the kitchen. With the island directly in front of the cooktop, the less space around the cooktop wouldn't be an issue from a functionality point of view.

Do you think there'd be room for a Message Center on the far end of the sink run near the backyard & garage doors?

I didn't adjust it, and these types of drawings aren't exactly to scale, but I think there would still be 23-24" on each side of the cooktop...Since the fridge is 32" and the oven would be 30" plus a little filler between it and the wall.