I LOVE the idea of switching the window with the door! It actually would be pretty easy to do. The headers are already there, all that would have to be done would be to pull out the logs under the current window and rework them under the current door. It solves a lot of problems with this open plan, yet keeps a sense of separate space.

The 20% time spent cleanup sink could go at the new window where the current door is, with dish storage to it's right, close to the DR. The island could have the prep sink with some stools for the 70% of the time spent prepping, and the 10% cooking time range could go on the back wall between the windows, as that would be a great focal point and be easier to vent. The fridge could go on the wall where you currently have the open shelving by the sink, and the MW could go under the base cabinet by the window, or on the counter in the entry way. Then, a craft/baking table fills up the space to the mud lockers. That could totally work! It keeps the traffic pattern out of your key areas, and gives you more storage for stuff where you need it. I'm betting it wold be cheaper to do this than to try to plan for island ventilation.

Natalie can't switch doors and windows. They live in a log cabin. Not sure why she didn't post that information this time around.

Lisa, log homes openings certainly CAN be tweaked if you are just swapping openings, not creating new ones. (You can even create brand new openings for only a little more trouble.) I have had clients that switched a door to a window in the past, and I don't know why I didn't think of it in the beginning. They used stone that matched their foundation to fill in the opening below the window and it looked fine. Especially with some landscaping. Turning a window into a door is even easier.

In a 50K+ kitchen remodel, I personally think that 5-10% of the budget could be allocated to create a much more functional space. I urge you to explore this possibility.

NatalieChantal- I sent you an email :)

Okay, let me rephrase that. Moving doors and windows in log cabins can be done but Natalie posted that this was not something they wanted to do.

Natalie, switching the door and window on that same wall makes so much sense - and it's a new idea not proposed in previous threads - that I hope you consider this. If you replace the door with a counter height window, you can wrap the counter around that wall, possibly ending it with the fridge between swapped window and door. That puts the fridge at the outer edge of the kitchen, accessible to others without crossing into your cooking zone but it's still close to your cooking zone. You could make this new section the kids' snack zone, complete with MW. With the fridge moved, you have room to add dish storage next to your DW.

Thanks LL. I just wrote you back. Rosie, do you think I should put a narrow drawer to the left of the range, with the pull-out beneath, or find a taller pull-out? I can't think how to fit hot pads and mitts in the pullout though, but I need to find a way for sure.

I totally get everyone's points about the layout and struggle with not sounding argumentative/defensive in my replies. After my original layout posts, I started over with the design with a KD. In the end, after seeing my space and listening to the concerns raised by GW members, including their layout proposals, my KD felt that tweaking my layout plan would work out just fine, so that's what we did. I can sense that some feel irritated at my apparent rejection of their help, and I truly don't mean to come across as ungrateful for the suggestions. You are concerned and doing your best to help me avoid major mistakes. I get that.

Now I'd like to move on from discussing layout, and started this thread asking for practical storage solutions. I have designated areas in my kitchen which I posted along with the 3D pictures, to show what goes where. My question, which perhaps I did not make very clear, is how to best arrange/organize the contents for each area. For example, does anyone store flours and sugars in a drawer as I'd like to do, and what have you found to be a good way to do so? Do you think, like Rosie, that the potato/onion shelves might be a bad idea and have a suggestion for what else to out there? Can you recommend - or advise against - certain brands of pull-outs, tell me how you fit your trash under the sink, let me know how you stored cookie cutters or small gadgets or what items you wish you'd grouped together?

I'd appreciate moving past the design critiques to learn what clever ideas you all have for organizing. I'm sure you have lots of great ideas!

Missing and incorrect storage won't magically appear, even if you use Haifele inserts over Rev-A-Shelf. Pollyanna cheerleading about poor decisions doesn't make them better decisions.

Yes, I've used strong words to try to get your attention here. To try to HELP you. That is why people post their layouts on this forum. To get help. Have you ever heard of the legal term, "attractive nuisance"? Because that's exactly what that range is, and multiple people have warned you about it. You cannot claim that you didn't know it was a hazard when the person who will get burned sues you. I only hope it isn't a child. I have a good friend who was badly burned as a child by a tipping hot pot. Thankfully, it was on an arm, and not her face. It was still disfiguring, but no so much so that she went through life stigmatized with a facial burn. Your kids may not be so lucky.

Natalie- I know you mentioned that your 9" storage on the left of the range is a challenge. Is this going to be your spice area? Maybe you could also keep oils here? I've seen some great pull outs on other threads...sorry, I don't have any pictures.

Are you sure your small appliances will fit in the 30" drawers, to the right of the fridge? Maybe a cabinet with pull out shelf would work better? Just an idea.

If you put some of the spices and oils in the 9" pullout, you might have a little more room in the upper cabinet for more items.

I'd like to have at least some silverware closer to the dishwasher. Maybe redo the baking area a bit and have those left hand drawers for silverware, at least in the top drawer. Also, drawers are nice (I know lots of people love them) but maybe different sized, so you could put a large flour in...maybe even have metal lined drawers for flour, sugar, etc. I know I have a terrible time with flour and cornmeal and have to keep them in glass canisters or something. Lots of bugs in the country!

Now that you've asked, specifically, for storage (not layout) ideas, hopefully you'll get a lot more input. There are some great idea people here, so I hope they can show you some pictures of what's worked in their kitchens!

Natalie, I'm confused why the KD you hired didn't address this during the planning stage. I've talked to several KDs and they all told me that I should provide a list of kitchen items so that they could design a kitchen to suit my storage needs at the same time that they addressed my layout needs. In other words, the time to talk about storage - size, type and location - is during the planning stages, not after you've arrived at a final layout. Otherwise, what's the point of remodeling a kitchen - and spending big bucks to do so - to suit one's needs?

Hollysprings- Cheerleading may be necessary, when a few choose to be so negative, no matter how much they say it's to 'help'. We all know how unpopular cooktops are on islands, on this forum, no matter how many times people show they can work very well, with proper planning. A 4" to 6" backsplash (which I already suggested) should easily take care of the problem.

Now, I think the OP has made it very clear she'd like to see examples of storage, not ostriches, so if you have anything really helpful to post, that might be a nice change :)

Well, I think for lots of us practical storage choices are irretrievably entwined with layout issues, so we have trouble dealing with the former in isolation. No variety of interior cab fitting is going to make up for a poor or unworkable layout. At best they can attempt to rescue a bad situation, and usually only need to do that when there are severe limits to the situation, usually finance, or short-tenancy, inability to move anything around, or extremely constricted space issues. But none of those seem to apply here, at least as far as your description above seems to indicate. (I do understand about log house construction, and its constraints.)

If you get that we are doing our best to help you avoid inadvertentent, or unforced, mistakes (seen from our points of view), can you follow that thought along to allow that there may actually be correctable mistakes in your current plan?

Your layout seems to be generating remarkably consisent comments about being uneasy in it, or somehow uncomfortable. I wonder why that is. We all have our own particular design fetishes (I don't use a DW, loathe soft close and can't stand people hanging out in my kitchen, for instance) but I am aware of being an outlier on those issues and would rarely urge someone else to adopt my notions on those points.

But several people have remarked on a common theme of feeling cramped or ill at ease with the layout. One thing that strikes me is the placement of the fridge in between your windows, reducing the important clean-up area to a hemmed-in space between two tall things, and eliminating a source of visual balance and spaciousness that would come from having a continous counter under the windows. Could you move it (the fridge), perhaps to the left, or be even willing to eliminate one of the windows and move the fridge all the way along towards the backdoor?

I don't recall your previous threads, so I don't remember if this plan is similar to the end result of the discussions here on GW, or pretty much what you started out with, now with the added imprimateur of a professional KD.

I know my own plan was fairly fixed by the time I asked for help so I was less flexible than many who begin here earlier in the process. (I had been haunting the forum for years and working on things as I saw them written about here.) I live in a very old, intact, period house which severely limits what I am willing to do to make changes to it. Some people suggested things that would make sense in a newer house, but not in mine. These were design/style choices that required layout changes. But as I said, functional issues carry more weight for me than purely style considerations (in most cases.) However, if I had gotten the strong feed back on the functionality of the layout that you are getting, I would have paused to re-examine my proposed plan, even if what I was longing to do was move on to cabinet fitment questions.

But in the spirit of trying to help with what you asked.... I will add one more question: where's your trash? I couldn't see where you are going to put it either near your prep area, near your fridge or near your sink, which are the three main trash-generating places in my own kitch. You could have a trash pull-out to the right of the stove and have gloves, hot pads and trivets in a drawer above it. (Didn't you say the counter would be wood, so you'll definitely need trivets!) You could also have a pull-out shelf in that cab to add to your plunk space. I have tons of cookbooks so I understand the need for bookshelves, and I think they always dress a room beautifully, but surely you can make better use of that very valuable real estate next to the stove?

I truly am not trying to badger you today, and since I don't recall reading/having made any strong suggestions on your previous layout threads, I don't feel I have any investment in comments already made about it. But I do notice that you're getting unusually consistent feedback in this thread about the plan. That's worth some more paying attention to, I think.

L.

I kindly offer my opinion here. I understand that Natalie has asked for storage suggestions, but it seems difficult for those here so knowledgable about creating functional spaces to skip over the obvious layout issues to get to the particular storage doodads. No one here is trying to insult or be negative. Sometimes it takes plain talk to get someone's attention. Natalie has worked on her plan for some time. I know how it feels to get wrapped up in what you think will work regardless of how well it will actually work in practice. Been there, done that. That's when I rely on the experts here. (Side note, I've seen plenty of horrible layouts posted here drawn up by KDs. Just because a KD draws it does not make it good, unfortunately. Not all KDs have equal skill.)

Sometimes people want to lay out a kitchen in a non-traditional way because they feel it suits their family. In the end, a functional layout is a functional layout. One that doesn't work, won't work regardless of how you use your kitchen.

I'm not a layout expert, but have learned a lot about proper work flow and appliance layout here. I also have problems with this layout. The whole space looks confusing, broken up, and not easy to work in to me. I like some of the suggested ideas to fix it. It seems you have plenty of room to create a great layout. I have nothing new to add, except to say that I am trying to help as nicely as possible. I also would hate to see you spend tens of thousands of dollars when you could do better. Sorry to not have addressed your storage issues.

Cabinet company inserts are going to be cheaper to purchase in the long run, because you'll have to pay labor for the after market ones to be installed. Many, like the blind corner organizer and wood pull out railed organizers, are VERY difficult to install after the cabinets are built. You are better off having your cabinet company supply these.

However, there isn't an insert in the world that will manage to fit in all of your spices and oils in a single 9" pullout. That's bad design. There isn't an aftermarket organizer that will allow a 30" drawer base to hold all of your pots and pans and your cooking utensils.That's bad design. You need a BIG pot rack looming above that counter to even manage to store most of what you need in your cooking zone. That's bad design. The bookshelf is really costing you a LOT in utility. That's bad design. Books only belong in a kitchen with ample storage space. In a kitchen short on storage, they need to go elsewhere.

Your cleanup zone is so cramped that all of the dirty dishes will spill over onto the peninsula. That's bad design. Because you don't have any room to stand there, when your DW is open, you'll feel like you're boxed in jail. That's bad design. You'll get a similar feeling standing at your range because 9" isn't enough room. That's bad design.

There isn't any way that people won't walk through that door and head straight through that kitchen, through the middle of all of your work zones. That's bad design. It's the easiest thing to do. It's like one of those campus greens where people wear shortcuts through the grass from Building A to Building B because the sidewalk was in the wrong spot.

The list goes on and on. But it boils down to bad design. A LOT of bad design. Almost comically bad, if you weren't going to spend so much money for it.

all the "stuff" you are wanting us to discuss with you can be fitted up after the kitchen is built. I'd wait...for instance, you might go ahead and buy a peg system for plates in drawers and then find you stack the plates on your open shelves. You might think of cup ledges or hooks for a cabinet dedicated to cups and mugs-but then stack them on the shelf above the microwave. Whatever...I'd wait....the stuff can be seen at Rev a Shelf or hafele or generic stuff at the container store-all these are web sites. the most basic question I have , since it is a log cabin-how tight is the carcass of your home-do you get spiders,mice, etc. More cabinets with stuff in sealed plastic containers is better and sometimes not even good enough-I would have done a tight pantry with shelves for these plastic things, even tho I'm not big on the tupperware type of stuff....maybe this is a modern day "cedar" home.

Cheerleading may be necessary, when a few choose to be so negative

No one is camped out here on the forum just to rain on someone's parade. We are here to help avoid spending tens of thousands of dollars on something that will be hard to work with in the end. A dream that turns into a nightmare. When this many people are all on the same page in such a big way... It's a major red flag.

It's not 'negative' to try to talk someone away from a cliff's edge, or out of the way of a car...or away from money badly and sadly spent. Cheerleading someone's position, in any of those cases would be unhelpful, at best. We really care. We love great-working kitchens and want others to experience the same. That's why we put our time in here, sharing thoughts, experiences, and hopefully knowledgeable and helpful opinions. A downside about written advice is that it's easy to interpret hard-to-hear advice given in a harsh tone, when it isn't intended that way. This is help, not criticism.

I have regrets about storage in our house... not in my kitchen, thankfully...but I know how difficult good storage is to think about after the fact. Lack of well-planned storage is hard to make up for later, and as we're trying to say, impossible to fit into a plan that didn't take it into account. The hard part about layout design is there are so many things to think about and juggle all at once.

NatalieChantal, What is that door on the right hand side?
If you have you already posted elsewhere, I wouldn't know.

For what reason have you rejected a galley kitchen concept?
For what reason have you rejected a larger island?

Natalie, I meant I'd put my potholders, mitts, etc., in the 30" utensil drawer to the left of the stove. I know that because I have a 30" utensil drawer under my cooktop, and it has plenty of room left over after a plethora of utensils to put my potholders, etc., in a front corner right where they can be grabbed fast.

Where will your lids go? If you don't already have something great planned for them, could that 9" pullout work for them? It's certainly in a good place.

I do have a 12" pullout, but it's in my prep area. The lower tall shelves hold the oils, vinegars, bottled sauces, vermouth, shaker can of Wondra flour, that sort of thing, that I use often. The top shallow one holds little stuff--garlic and shallots, crystalized ginger, tube of anchovy paste, and so on. I guess you do most of your prep somewhere else, but your pullouts would be great for whatever bottled stuff you need by the stove. Oils maybe?

People post on this board because they care what their kitchen will look like. They care what it will cook like. They care what it will live like as their family grows.

I say that because, well, Natalie, you seem to be removed from those issues. Do you really care how this kitchen will work? Or only how the pretty finishes look? Sure, there's this half hearted attempt to figure out storage after the fact, but that's not what someone does when they really cook.

Either you want real help here, or you don't. There's no point in posting something that you don't want to have some input from those who have been there and done that. Some of us have done hundreds of kitchen renos. Otherwise, you'd just post the reveal, and those of us with serious reserves would just have to say something like, "Bless your heart, it sure is a unique space!" That's Southernese code for not telling someone they have an ugly baby.

You really have the room for a beautiful and functional space. And many of us see that. It could be so much MORE. This design is far from that vision. I just don't understand why you can't admit that as well!

Davidro1, the door at R leads to the yard area with the herb border and kiddie play set. Eventually I will be putting in a veggie garden in that portion of the yard, too.

The reasons I do not want a galley design, or a large rectangular island... Mostly, I know my kitchen will get lots of traffic through it - instead of fighting it, I allowed for it, so it won't interfere with the cook, and the hot zone doesn't get passed through. The only time it would be an issue is when someone is working at the small appliance run (the cab run by the R door), but I can easily switch the door swing in the future to minimize problems. I also don't like the big rectangles because I don't need or want seating on the back of the island, as the DR is beyond it anyway, and a straight side does not give me as much prep space between range and sink, as the L shape does.

I've noticed that several commenters have missed things I mentioned in my initial post. The trash IS planned for - under both sinks. The pull-out by the range is NOT intended for spices. I DON'T need my main dishes in the kitchen, they are fine in the DR - I know this because it's what we are doing right now and are happy with. The range WILL have a hood, that EASILY vents to the outside (straight out the wall at right). I CAN'T just pick the cab manufacturer built-ins right now, as I will be shopping the elevation drawings around to different cab companies and local shops. This is why I want a good idea NOW of what special features I want, and that's why I started this thread!

Folks, you have all done your utmost to warn me of problems, and I have done my best to graciously thank you for your input. Now I have a plan everyone at my end is happy with. I like how there are distinct areas - they are set up for different things (sink, baking, prep, appliances), so it's easy for several people to share the kitchen, but not a tiring hassle for a single cook, either. I love the open space in the middle so I won't feel cramped. I love how it won't drive me insane anymore to have kitchen traffic. And I am okay with the trade-offs my choices involve, which have been amply pointed out. The worst thing that's going to happen, is that my new kitchen won't be as improved over my current one as I had hoped.

I admire your dedication to proper layouts, but for the love of Pete, please LET GO of the layout issues, and instead share your wonderful ideas for placing trash under a main sink and organizing gadgets and gizmos with me!

GD, that's the thing; you guys are removed from my kitchen, my home, my family, my dynamics. I'm not. I have lived in this house since early 2007 so I know what I want to change, what our patterns are, how the house and yard and doorways are used, and what is/is not a big deal to us. I know what compromises we are willing to make, how we cook, and what flow I want to improve from when there are two of us to when we host 50+ people. I know whether we think changing the house, or changing the plan, would be a better idea, given OUR circumstances.
I don't watch TV - we don't even have service. I am not copying any cooking show set-ups or magazine pictures. I love to cook, and bake, and have sit-down family meals every night. I grew up in Europe watching my grandmother feed a family gathering in a dinky kitchen with the range and sink on opposite sides of a little dividing wall, and my aunt feed my cousin's teenage friends from a fridge that would barely be considered adequate for beverages, here. I know what I like, what I hate, and what I can work around; how to plan and cook and clean for my four kiddos and DH and me. And I've been planning this kitchen for two years now, around US.

So, no, it couldn't be "so much more" than what it is. It could be better for you, or for a bunch of you here at GW, even. Maybe I am not TKO enough to notice or care, because it is better than what I have EVER had, in my whole life, and fulfills many of my needs and wants with drawbacks I can live with. It's not perfect, because I am working within lots of limitations. It's not what I would design if I could come up with something from scratch. But it's good enough to please me, my DH, my KD, my contractor, and the people who know my home and family, some of whom are professional designers. That's good enough for me, even if it isn't good enough for GW.

Wow, failure to conform will not be tolerated.

I have a lot of respect for most people on this forum, but lately, it seems there's a 'pile on' of responses, repeating the same things. While it's wonderful to care enough, to let someone know there might be a better 'function over form' choice...once it's been stated, do we really need to dwell?

Yes, we all see that some of you have issues with the design. Natalie's kitchen is not the only one this has happened with and I hope we'll try to remember that while people come here for help...they don't need to be told 10 times or more that they should change their entire plan around to conform with what GW forum members think is the ideal kitchen.

I really don't mean to offend anyone in particular, but I am not going to 'say nothing' either. No surprise there, right? :)

What if there was just a filler to the left of the range, enough to clear the other leg of the island, but no more, and the remaining six inches or so were added to the blind corner storage from the outside of the L. If you did that and added a bit more protection at the back of the range, I think you'd be okay.

In all this discussion of layout, I haven't seen anyone mention the work triangle. Draw a line from the center front of your stove to the center front of your sink to the center front of your fridge and then close it back to the start. If it measures more than 17', you are going to do an awful lot of walking as you cook. It looks to me like you have it maxed out counting the prep sink as your sink. If you used the main sink instead...well, let's just say you'll get your exercise. :-) Can you find a way to move things a little closer together? Mine is a very small kitchen, the triangle is 14', and I love it.

Please, please, please address the danger of that stove; several good suggestions have been given by others. If, God forbid, there were an accident, how would you forgive yourself? You'd remember it every time you came into the room.

I'm still working out my own storage, but I'll give you what I do know: (1) glass doors are an invitation for your snoopy neighbor to see the mess when the cereal box spills and the kids don't clean it right up--they should only be used for china display cupboards (2) 9" base cabinets can conveniently store flat lids and/or cookie sheets (c) are cookie cutters seasonal or year-round for you? They're seasonal for me, and I keep them in a big tole-painted canister on a high shelf. If they were year-round, I'd just move it to the countertop. I wouldn't spend a precious drawer on them. I'd use that drawer for oven mitts and pot holders.

Six inches were added to the RIGHT OF THE RANGE it should say.

Three inch filler to left side of range.

Add the six inches left over to the right side the range's counter and storage.

Access the blind corner created by the range on the outside of the island.

Add a bit more protection to the back of the range, and I think you'd be ok.

I have no idea what happened to half the typing in my first post.

I'm not a regular poster, but am still a little embarrassed at how this thread has gone. Unfortunately, I remember the reaction Natalie had gotten in the past, so I wasn't surprised.

Natalie - I would suggest you visit the rev-a-shelf website just to get some ideas. They have 3 pages of trash pull-out options, several of which are specifically for under sink applications. I would also consider a tilt out in front of the sinks for those little things like sponges or veggie scrubbers. I will link below a solution that may be good for the 9 inch pullout if your pot holders are the type that can hang on a hook, utensils needed near the stove like turners or tongs as well.

Best of luck to you and your new kitchen.

Here is a link that might be useful: rev-a-shelf pull out stainless peg board

don't see it like that at all:people are all different-so visions are quite varied...better to throw out all the ideas possible and let the kitchen's owner sift through it all....this is easy and convenient being a click away from your armchair and graph paper and ruler -just read and disregard or register in your head some helpful piece. I think that is how this site is used for the most part.Natalie has not pushed the boundaries of her space-that's okay-many thought it is a space with huge potential-that's all. It'll be fine-Natalie.

I haven't been following your previous threads... but have you dismantled your current kitchen? What really helped me was to go through my drawers (before demo) and write EVERYTHING down. There's a reason why we put things where they are in the current space, even if it's a little dysfunctional. I put a code next to each item: f = frequent use, i = infrequent use, x2 for doubled items. For drawers this was especially useful, since I had different "zones" to move back into, like you. Frequent use items for serving/prepping went in that area, frequent use items for stove use (stirring, etc) and fridge use (ice cream scoop, wine corker) went in that area. Infrequent items went into lower drawers. Oven mitts go close to the stove. Tea towels go near the sink. Etc. etc.

Also, if you still have your current kitchen, measure the space you use for glasses, plastic containers, bowls, cleaning supplies, etc., (in linear inch?) and make sure you designate the same/more space in your new kitchen in logical areas (ability to scrape dishes into green bin WHILE D/W is open was a must for me!) I'm sure there is a "rule list" somewhere on the 'net of where things *should* go (ie: I think I read plastic wrap should go near the fridge for putting away leftovers, so my drawer base near my fridge holds both the wraps and the tupperware for this reason; it's worked well).

This is also a good time to be honest about purging. I ditched the apple corer, an old (3rd!)set of measuring cups, countless other items. Don't neccessarily toss doubles however... I found having a pair of scissors in each zone has been a really useful idea.

As for special dividers/pull outs, etc., I skipped these until after. I was on a pretty tight budget, so knew I could live without certain things right away. I'm also the type who didn't get hung up on pot dividers, lid holders, etc., and contrary to a poster above I do fit all my pots/pans in one 30" pot drawer (large pot holds all the lids, stack 2 smaller saucepans, stack 3 frypans with plastic lids between them for protection). Maybe I'm a minimalist but it works fine for me.

I urge you to plan this thoughtfully now... it's so nice to move back into your new kitchen knowing where to put everything! Your first post in this thread does indicate you have given several things consideration, which is a good start. Only you know how you'll live, and what compromises you can make... good luck.

The door swing makes more sense if it opens towards the dining room.

Assuming I'm not overstaying my welcome, I'll ask about another one of the mega-layout ideas, and hope it breaks new ground. I know about the door. I know that the kitchen as laid out above "will get lots of traffic through it" and so instead of fighting it, a layout was found to allow for it, "so it won't interfere with the cook, and the hot zone doesn't get passed through."

There is a dividing counter in the plan. It is shown made of stone, stone facing or stone cladding. If this counter disappeared, the floor area it covers would be available, and that area could be the entrance to a fairly "narrow" galley that would NOT get traffic through it. At one end of the galley could be a 24"w - 28"w wall to hide the fridge or something. Also, a wall is good for an island since it allows for better "venting" of plumbing drains, better in terms of lower cost and less risk of getting it wrong.

Where the divider counter is shown in the plans, that distance is wide enough to have the entrance to the dining room be on one side and the entrance to the laboratory kitchen be on the other side.

It seems the divider has always been there, in all plans, for months. I don't get it. As if it were a required element. It seems the room next to the divider (mudroom?) was somehow going to require this divider counter.

The door swing makes more sense if it opens towards the dining room.

Here is a link that might be useful:

I'm going to assume you have other entrance doors too.

I notice the dining room has doors, so I'll guess it is a room that people can pass through on their way to somewhere else. It might a large house.

I found a main door entry in this drawing.

Here is a link that might be useful:

Wow; so much anger here?! Deep breath everyone: This advice is worth, as they say, 0.02. Take what works, leave the rest. And while everyone wants to be helpful, sometimes you're just not going to be heeded -- that's just reality as well.

Sorry if this is gratuitous, but just skimming the tone it seems a little out-of-control. There are other posters eager for attention and ideas!

It's funny how sometimes a certain harmonic gets sprung here and ~ouch!

BTW - note that it can happen to venerated posters... I remember an honored old-timer who has posted on this thread, even, who posted her ideas that got thoroughly skewered here a little while back. It was breathtaking, when these little posting frenzies get going. You can kind of see why internet bullying can take on a life of its own. Sometimes you just want to shut off the computer and walk away for a little while....

Thanks aliris. I've been trying to be open to the criticism and take it in the spirit of helpfulness, but it really has gotten crazy. I am very grateful to those posters who have addressed my question with helpful storage/organization ideas. Auntie-M, LL, Rosie... Great ideas from you, thank you! I like the thought of putting the pot lids in the pull-out. Maybe I can fit a narrow cruet for oil, and a few seasonings there too - I don't want my whole collection in a pull-out as I prefer them at eye level, but you are right that the ones I use most for cooking should be closer at hand than the wall cabinet by the fridge.

Davidro1, I appreciate your kind tone and your trying to understand my plan, but this is not something I'm going to address. This thread was started to find clever planning ideas. Maybe I didn't make that very clear, but surely posting pictures of each kitchen area with a cabinet/drawer breakdown of the planned contents, should point people in the right direction and show that the issue is not where to place things overall. I have clarified several times since my first post what kind of help I am asking for. Is this is too much to ask of this forum - nifty space-saving, practical, user-friendly storage ideas in the specific context of my kitchen plan? I thought that was what this forum is primarily for. If members refuse to assist in any way before design they disapprove of is corrected, then this forum is worthless as a source of help and inspiration. It doesn't take a layout re-do to link to a handy trash pull-out, or suggest storing utensils upright in a pull-out to save space. I would still appreciate help with that - in almost 50 replies there have only been a handful of on-topic replies - but I am not discussing my layout anymore. For those who can't move past that, there are threads from other posters who are asking for your expertise.

I would like to know if there is actual data about burn accidents because of the Back of the cooktop being close to the back of an island or peninsula, because this is often cited in this forum as extremely dangerous and foolhardy unless there is a wide berth allotted at the back side of the range. Has this been broken out from data where the accident occurs at the front of the range or,,,what I think is most likely,,,in the path between the range and the sink?

I am not promoting putting the sides or back inches from the corner of a peninsula in a major traffic pattern, mind you, but I think the island/peninsula position has been something that has really been overstated as a negative on this forum in particular.

I'm not seeing a lot of anger here - more like a bunch of people who are honestly trying to make the op happy but not with the kind of answers the op wants.

I was confused by the title of your post - otherwise I wouldn't have posted on the question at all. It did not seem like you fenced off more discussion of layout. Usually someone with that type of title IS looking for layout advice. I had not seen any of your previous layout questions and was unable to find any on a casual search. This is just explanation - not anger or criticism.

I don't know how to answer what you are asking - talking about storage without talking about layout, so I'm going to just get on outta here. Anything else I say would be trying to persuade you to reopen discussions about layout :)

@pali --> not seeing any stats at all about kitchen burns other than for children and they are simply broken out between scalds from hot liquids and contact burns. It was d#$% impressive that 50% of littles hospitalized for burns were for kitchen burns tho.

Here is a link that might be useful: Typical stats for burns

I think most children get burned in the kitchen, when handles are left facing towards the front. I don't have stats, but burns happened long before cooktops/ranges were placed on peninsulas or islands. It's SO important to keep handles to the sides and don't put controls on the front, if you have small children. Also...keep small children away from range, when cooking.

Also, island cooktops are only a problem, when people are seated behind them and either reading the paper...and carelessly pushing the paper onto a burner that is turned on...or frying food, while people are sitting there. I don't think it would be impossbile to have people sit elsewhere, if you're frying.

I think Natalie has clairfied, repeatedly, that she was asking for storage help. It's obvious that many people do not read the OP, since she was asked repeatedly about whether she would have a hood over the range, among other things.

If we can't answer a storage question, without changing the layout, I think there may be a problem. Whatever happened to the 'zone' storage ideas? I used to see them in magazines...this is the storage you should have by the sink, the range, the fridge, etc. It doesn't matter what your layout might be, if you incorporate good zone storage. Whether the zones interact well together, would be a layout question, but not size of drawers for storage or whether tray dividers work for you, etc.

Here's one...zone storage ideas, in a typical L-shaped kitchen, with no island or prep sink! Imagine :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Link to zone storage ideas from DynamicSpace

natalie i'm sure you'll figure it out.

I know I did, in my case, without any input from a free forum. I just put things wherever, and then I moved them around to try out other options.

what to put in which cabinet. not a big thing. you'll figure it out.

--

i can speak for myself when i say i did a fair amount of work hunting down your previous threads, reading them, and digging out the information i needed to ascertain what the divider counter was for.

i can predict others have done work too.

you are generally unable to write in short form. This thread asks for more than it asks for, and then later it asks only for a specific type of help. Good luck with the future.

Now I am supposed to label the drawings with my storage ideas. I have a rough idea, but not down to what pull-outs for certain items would be best, or how to organize my spices, or specific manufacturers for the customizing of storage options

That seems pretty specific to me - not counting my follow-ups to further reiterate this when the tread careened into layout critique; especially given that I included the drawings of each kitchen area, complete with a description of what I would store there, in which drawers/cabinets.

Sorry you spent so much time digging up my past threads because of misunderstanding that request. Like you said, I'm sure I'll figure it out on my own - but the whole point of a kitchen forum is to have a community one can ask for this sort of advice, no?

Yes, it really is for people with the same enthusiasms to come together to discuss, and I'm surprised at the peculiar turn this particular thread took. Sorry, Natalie.

I sort of suspect, though, that the...excess emotional energy and the lack of respect so uncharacteristically displayed may have arisen, not so much from the many layout issues overly expounded on, but from one--the stove safety issue. It's very real, and Lavender Lass's suggestion, for instance, for creating a short protective wall so children and others going by don't inadvertently catch on or bump a pot and pull it over is both good sense and a good deed performed.

In all other respects I really, really appreciate that you've taken what works for you from this forum and had the strength of conviction, experience, and self knowledge to ignore the rest and create something that's truly an expression of the way you work. That it's far from what I'd do is what makes it particularly interesting, and a discussion of how you will work in it would be fun.

I don't generally have a problem with island cooktops, having grown up with one. We actually found it worked for multiple cooks to be able to have access from the opposite side. There was plenty of room to keep handles to the side. The shift to the right I suggessed was because I am not sure a 9" cabinet with pullout would have more utility than one wider unit on the other side of the range.

I stayed out of the layout discussion because I could see it coming. In retrospect, a title like "aftermarket cabinet organizers/inserts suggestions" may have been less troublesome. I wouldn't have known myself that the kitchen wasn't actually installed already...and then the layout couldnt really be addressed.

I would look at Rev-A-Shelf and Container Store online and seem what seems most applicable to how you want to store.

Clearly there's a longish history to this somewhere...

Your layout actually looks fine to me, but then I'm neither spoiled when it comes to kitchens, nor very educated regarding their design. Reading through some of the responses here, though, every kitchen I ever cooked in these past thirty years, including my nearly finished current one would get an F. *g*

I do like the symmetry of the fridge wall, and wish I had a baking centre like that, with everything needed in drawers right underneath!

The only problem for me are the sideways shelves by the sink; they do seem to intrude into valuable space. I've banged my head on similar setups a few times. But if you're willing to deal with that, so be it. :)

Now this was suggested somewhat sarcastically upthread, but HAVE you considered a hanging potrack? I've no idea how much cookware you own, and how much of it fits into the 30" cabinet (there are seven pots, including a stockpot, three pans, a number of pyrex and glass dishes, and most of the flatware residing in a 24" drawer base next to my stove), but a rack also could hold cooking utensils, etc. It might of course interfere with your view of the window, and some people just don't like things dangling anywhere near their heads.

Lee Valley and IKEA also offer many nifty and unique storage options. Some of the IKEA ones are designed to fit their cab interiors specifically, but not all. At any rate, you might find some idaes to tell your KD or cabinetmaker. As for the back of the range, if that is a worry, a simple sort of guard rail or fence (maybe something nice and decorative? custom-made wrought iron?) would do.

Here is a link that might be useful: IKEA interior organizers

That seems pretty specific to me

It didn't to me. If you had said "I am not open to layout ideas" or "I only want suggestions for storage organizers", it would have been. But when combined with the title, and cabinets not chosen or ordered - it signals no commitment yet and that layout can be discussed. I can't tell you (perhaps dh could) how many "final layouts" I had for our space.

I was being serious that my quirky mind can't separate layout and storage. I have quite a number of odd places inside :)

I wish you well with your project but believe me, I'll never comment on it again.

Rosie, palimpsest, lanval... Great suggestions from all of you. Thank you very much! I especially love the wrought iron idea - will have to run that by DH and see what he thinks! Pal, I see what you mean about the title and will keep that in mind in the future.

Bmorepanic, I'm sorry that you don't feel welcome to comment any longer. It sounds as though you misunderstood what the issue was, or perhaps this thread has gotten so long, that it's easy to miss the play-by-play when skimming it. Receiving inquiries about my layout is one thing, but most people didn't pay attention to my OP and got very aggressive about things that they misunderstood and/ or disapproved of, and refused to stay OT despite my repeated follow-up clarifications. As palimpsest summed up, my question revolves around cabinet organizers and nifty pull-outs, not overall storage planning within the layout. Several people along the way grasped that clearly, but I can see how a quick perusal of most comments would cloud the original topic.

Lanval, I HAVE considered a pot rack... I'm just not sold on it right now. My hood is going to be custom copper, and I'm afraid having a pot rack over the prep arm area would compete with the hood for attention. I also can't figure out how the pots and pans don't get filthy hanging out in the dust and grease of a kitchen - we have a log home, and it is SO dusty! But a pot rack would undoubtedly give me a lot more storage. So my plan for now is to hold off and see what I can get to comfortably fit in the drawers. If it is too cramped, then the convenience of a pot rack will outweigh any of my design misgivings!

Palimpsest, the range sides have been the subject of much back-and-forth with the KD, and several different sketches. I kept wondering where I want/need the space most! In the end, and after experimentation at home - I taped up a real-size cardboard mock-up of the island - I found I really wanted those 9" at left for comfort - didn't like feeling squished up against the prep arm side. We couldn't go less that 16" at right for safety, and in that area I did sacrifice function for form because that side is the directly across from the front door, and the bookshelves were MUCH more attractive. Besides, it keeps them handier for me to access them (my justification for having SOME kind of function rationale!). But now I need to find ways to store the by-the-range items in the 9" pull-out!

Rosie, I think it would be lots of fun to discuss how I'd work in my kitchen with people who are genuinely interested, since DH is already tired to death of the whole topic :). Seeing other people's non-conformist kitchens would be a blast, too! Maybe we should start a rebel FKB thread!

I'm concerned that you are going to find that your deep drawers under the baking center aren't big enough for what you want to put in them. With our 36" high counters and frameless cabinets, we have a bit over 28" of interior height in the boxes - the rest of the 36" is toe kick, cabinet box top and bottom and counter thickness. With 30", you will have about 22" to play - or less if you have framed. Your picture shows 3 equal size drawers - that means 7 or maybe 7.5" drawer face height. It varies a bit depending on the exact drawer construction, but interior drawer height will be about an inch less than that making your deep drawers about 6" deep.

We have an 18" wide drawer stack for baking supplies. Our flour and sugar drawer interior is 10" high and 15" wide (those pesky cabinet box and drawer sides take up the rest). We decided on that height after measuring convenient flour storage containers. At that size it can hold a container with the sugars and 2 5-lb flour containers and a few smaller bags and boxes or 1 5-lb flour container and more smaller bags and boxes. We have ended up doing the latter. Our bread flour (because challah gets made every week) is stored there along with corn meal, cocoa, flax seed and some specialty flours. All purpose and whole wheat have to be fetched from the pantry. I wouldn't want to go any smaller than that. BTW, that is in our bottom drawer - since the containers are mostly tall, it requires less bending to get them than having small stuff where you need to reach to the bottom of the drawer.

A slightly shallower drawer (7" drawer front) holds other baking supplies like baking powder, baking soda, etc. A much shallower drawer can hold a lot of the utensils.

Our main pot and pan drawers are about as deep as our flour drawer. One 36" x 11" (drawer front dimensions - interior about 33" by 10") drawer holds a pretty complete set of everyday pots and pans (we have one for milk and one for meat plus a couple of smaller drawers for parve).

Therefore, rather than having three drawers about the same height, I'd suggest a deep bottom drawer (10" interior depth at least), a medium size (~6" interior) middle drawer and a shallow top drawer. That's if you are going frameless and your cabinet construction is similar to ours. For framed, it might be best to go with just 2 drawers per stack.

One use for the 9" cabinet by the range would be storing flat pan items such as cookie sheets, baking sheets and cooling racks. If they are half sheet size laying on their sides, that would take up the bottom 13" of the cabinet. We have ours in a 12" wide cabinet and 6 of each plus a couple of muffin tins take up the bottom. We have a pull out for other cake pans above. It might be tight to do 2 levels of 13" high flat pan storage. If you had a fixed shelf in just the right spot, you could do it. Our cooling racks and muffin tins are less then 13". You might do the bigger sheet pans on the bottom and smaller ones like muffin tins above. Cutting board storage is another possible use.

Our food processor accessories are in a custom insert that my husband made for a pull out in another 12" cabinet. I don't think they would fit in a pullout in a 9" cabinet, but maybe if yours is smaller they might.

16" is very deep for a bookshelf. Is the cabinet to the right of the range all bookshelf? We have 12" to the left of our rangetop. It isn't ideal, but it works for us. What is the rationale for wanting at least 16" to the side of the range "for safety" when 4" at the back of the range is okay with you?

We have an island rangetop and really like having the rangetop and prep sink on our island. But I'd rather have a foot of counter behind the range. If you had the space, you could do 12" deep cabinets on the back of the range.

Rather than looking for cabinet companies with nifty inserts, I'd look for how they use the space in the cabinet - how much interior space do you get for a particular size cabinet or drawer.

I think that the microwave will be really difficult to use where you show it. It will have to be accessed from the side making the panel difficult to read. Perhaps you are taller than me, but you mentioned kiddie cups so I assume that you have kids. That height and sideways access will make it difficult for your kids to use when they are old enough. I'd put it under the cabinet to the right of the fridge in the snack area. You might at least have an outlet there for it in case you find the other location inconvenient.

The open shelves to the left of the sink would bother me. They will interfere with use of the counter to the left of the sink and you have minimal counter to the right of the sink. I'd suggest getting rid of them or doing only one shelf for more clearance between the counter and the shelf.

Thanks cloud_swift. That's a lot of good information to consider. Do you store your flour upright or in a longer but shorter container? Since that area is 30" deep as well as 30" tall, I was hoping that the space I lost in height could be made up in depth with long shallow storage containers. Of course, I am losing additional space by having beaded inset cabinets.

I will be sure to have plenty of outlets so I can be flexible in rearranging small appliances and especially the MW. We hardly use it so planned on trying it out in that side shelf at first, with the spots next to the fridge as alternatives. We move things around as our needs change, so are trying to build in the flexibility to do that.

The range needs more buffer at the sides than the back for several reasons. One, you need a resting place for pots and pans, or to stash a serving container, next to the range. Also to put prepped foods, a cookbook if you're following a recipe, handy spices, spoon rests, etc. I certainly don't want to be reaching over my cooktop for any of those things. It provides clearance for handles, and a safer area for someone to stand next to me, like a child. That right side of the range is also a major walkway into the main part of the house. The back is not a major walkway at all, and has a 6" buffer which we are considering raising for extra precaution.

The open shelves have been mentioned a few times as major bump potential,so I think we will push them back a bit so they are not flush with the counter. I'd like to stash my coffee pot on that side of the sink so the shelves will be great to display our sizable mug collection.

Do you use any organizers for your pots and pans in their drawer? Do you keep the lids with them? We don't keep kosher so I don't need more than one set, but only have 30" drawers. It sounds as though it will be okay, though.

Thanks so much for all that input. It was very helpful!

"...I am losing additional space by having beaded inset cabinets." If you posted this earlier, I missed it. This makes a big difference in storage. A 9" inset cabinet in your kitchen won't provide the same amount of storage as a 9" frameless cabinet in Cloud_Swift's kitchen. You will need to pay very close attention to inside dimensions when you get cabinet quotes. The same size cabinet will vary, sometimes only by mere fractions of an inch but those fractions can make the difference between whether your food processor goes in a certain cabinet or not.

I agree with Cloud_Swift's comment, "Rather than looking for cabinet companies with nifty inserts, I'd look for how they use the space in the cabinet - how much interior space do you get for a particular size cabinet or drawer." Even if you go with nifty inserts, you'll need to know the width of the opening to know which insert will work for you. Otherwise, it's like telling hubby you need him to buy you a black dress but not telling him what size, whether it should be short or long sleeved and all the other important details so that you get the right black dress.

If the cabinets don't provide the storage you need where you need it, you may have to choose between a slight tweaking of your plan or choosing a different cabinet construction to get the storage space you need. It's all about compromise. We may not like doing that but sometimes we just gotta.

This goes back to my earlier comment that I'm surprised that your KD didn't help you plan out storage when she created her design for you. As I wrote earlier, all the KDs I spoke with suggested that I give them a list of what would be stored where, including dimensions of items. For instance, I want shallow storage for small appliances. One KD asked me to measure my appliances at which point I discovered that at least 2 wouldn't fit in a cabinet less than 15" deep. If she hadn't asked, if I hadn't checked, I could have ended up with a cabinet too shallow for its purpose. Oh, what a headache! I'm with bmore - storage and lay-out go hand in hand at the planning stage.

We store the lids with the pans, though not necessarily on each pan. We will nest a few pans and then put the lids on top or to the side. I don't have any organizers in the pots and pan drawers. I think I can pack them more tightly without and what we have changes over time.

I don't think that extra length (back to front) in the drawers will compensate for a short narrow drawer for flour and sugar. What happens when a drawer gets narrow is that you find two things that you might put side by side in a wider drawer don't fit so you have to put one in front of the other leaving slivers of unusable space at the side. Maybe you have enough narrow boxes to use the slivers, but perhaps you won't and there is wasted space that adds up. The extra length will be more useful in your pot and pan drawer which is wide enough for flexibility. Since the drawers are extra long, you might make the middle stack 30 or 33" so you can add some width to the left stack.

Our flour and sugar containers are tall - without measuring probably between 9 and 10". I think that it is easier to use them without flour or sugar spilling out if they are tall - a longer flatter container would need more empty space buffer to keep flour from popping out as you put the measuring cup in and makes it harder to scope as it gets empty. There are also some items in the boxes that they were bought in that need most of the height - e.g. corn meal, can of baker's joy for spraying pans. If you are doing beaded inset, I think you will be better served by using 2 drawers per stack or maybe two in the 36" stack and 3 in the narrow stack with the bottom drawer same tall height in both and a medium size drawer in the one stack above that and two shorter drawers taking the same height together as the medium drawer.

For things where we were worried about fit, we measured heights as they would lie in the drawer. In some cases, we even laid out what we would put in the drawer to check fit. You might try that, especially for your flour drawer.

The shelves by the sink look pretty far apart compared to the height of mugs, if you aren't excessively worried about symmetry, they could be closer together with smaller brackets to hold the mugs more out of the way of shoulders at the sink. You were worried about dust accumulating on pots on a pot rack but not on mug collection on the shelf?

Thanks cloud_swift. That's a lot of good information to consider. Do you store your flour upright or in a longer but shorter container? Since that area is 30" deep as well as 30" tall, I was hoping that the space I lost in height could be made up in depth with long shallow storage containers. Of course, I am losing additional space by having beaded inset cabinets.

I will be sure to have plenty of outlets so I can be flexible in rearranging small appliances and especially the MW. We hardly use it so planned on trying it out in that side shelf at first, with the spots next to the fridge as alternatives. We move things around as our needs change, so are trying to build in the flexibility to do that.

The range needs more buffer at the sides than the back for several reasons. One, you need a resting place for pots and pans, or to stash a serving container, next to the range. Also to put prepped foods, a cookbook if you're following a recipe, handy spices, spoon rests, etc. I certainly don't want to be reaching over my cooktop for any of those things. It provides clearance for handles, and a safer area for someone to stand next to me, like a child. That right side of the range is also a major walkway into the main part of the house. The back is not a major walkway at all, and has a 6" buffer which we are considering raising for extra precaution.

The open shelves have been mentioned a few times as major bump potential,so I think we will push them back a bit so they are not flush with the counter. I'd like to stash my coffee pot on that side of the sink so the shelves will be great to display our sizable mug collection.

Do you use any organizers for your pots and pans in their drawer? Do you keep the lids with them? We don't keep kosher so I don't need more than one set, but only have 30" drawers. It sounds as though it will be okay, though.

Thanks so much for all that input. It was very helpful!

I wish I'd thought to ask some of those questions ahead of time. With all the experience out there, there are a couple of things I wish I'd learned from somebody's else's. My own, not always so good. :)

Natalie, a rebel kitchens thread would really be fun. Not just for people with different ideas and those with odd spaces, but just about everybody. It's always the peculiar challenges that are the most interesting. Looking forward to it.