flwrs, if you really, really love the look, why don't you just use it decoratively? I like the look and idea of having oils and spices, especially in pretty containers, out on display, but I don't. I don't mean to put anyone down for not knowing this, but oils especially, degrade very quickly with light; then add the extra heat from a range and you're heading for a huge waste. I never buy oils (eg EV olive oil) in the tiny clear, (and expensive) jars because there is no way of knowing how long they've been exposed. I cook extensively and buy my EVOO in the 3 liter cans and fill a half liter decorative jar with a pour spout. I store the can in a lower cabinet below my prep sink and the jar in a pull-out next to my range. I use a LOT of olive oil, so keeping the jar out for 10-14 days wouldn't be bad, but keeping it it dark is second nature to me. If you only cook with these oils occasionally and leave them out, you may not notice the slow degradation. 6-8 months later you'll notice an off smell and possibly wonder why you spent so much money on such an inferior product! Along the same thought, have you noticed that whole wheat and other whole grain flours all say to store in a dark, cool place? Same reason: whole flours, unlike refined, contain oil which can go rancid. I don't use whole flours that much and used to be frustrated because I was always throwing out open bags. After I started keeping them in my freezer, I no longer had the problem. So what I' getting at flwrs, buy pretty condiments at HomeGoods or TJMax, or even make your own, decorate away, and keep the stuff you actually use for cooking stashed below or away from the light and glass flames. I also agree that discussing this topic over in the kitchen forum is a good idea.

Florantha, what did you decide to do about your niche? I have the same problem...range height total is 46". Hood needs to be installed 30" max. I am looking online right now at cruets and all seem to be 11-13" tall. I figure I could only go with an 8.5" tall niche for it to work. Right now I am cruising backsplash/niche pics, counting out everyone's tiles and examining measurements. What did you decide, Flor?

I had purchased a marble mosaic from a seller in Lebanon off ebay for my "focal point". I went over the colors very carefully with him. I confirmed that the colors on my computer were actually colors x, y, and z, and he said "yes". The mosaic, as pictured, was just perfect for my space. The mural came very quickly for something coming from the Middle East, but when I opened it, I was really disappointed. One color was clearly not the color I had anticipated, and that is totally my fault. The whole color thing is really subjective and probably got lost in translation. The whoe mosaic, though, was "off". It looked like a very drab version of the photograph that was posted, yet it was supposed to be the actual mosaic. Of course, I wasn't taking into account lighting, etc. that always makes something like whiter, crisper. DUH. Anyway, I tried to love it, but the more I looked at it, the worse it seemed. The white in it just looked dirty. The whole thing looked like it needed to be cleaned, and that was just the nature of the stone chosen for the mosaic. I knew for sure it wasn't going to work when Hubs said, "That just looks dirty. It's kind of hideous." (He has a way of cutting to the chase. LOL!) It was only (only?) $125, but it still was an expensive lesson for me. When I am looking for something so specific, I really need to see it in real life. I sold it on Craig's list for $50.

Thank you everyone so much! I should have asked for help earlier in the process, but felt obliged to take the advice of our architect without questioning too much. We meet with our GC tomorrow to kick off demo (this week or next) so I need to have our layout finalized asap. Bmorepanic, I am definitey going to move the refrigerator down 3" from the door. I totally forgot about that once we fixed the constraint of the window. Yay! The fireplace is a conundrum- it is one of the only things that we like about our existing kitchen and we'd like to keep the wall free of upper cabinetry as much as possible to preserve the symmetry of the little windows throgh the brick. The funny part about the chimney is that the brick is 28" deep for most of the wall, but only 8" deep on the right side. So the windows and the firebox are the only features that make it feel centered to me. I'm a little stuck on the firebox recess- it is 20" deep and our plan was to recess the range 12" and use the 8" of space behind for the niche. Our architect insisted that we do something a little fancier behind the range, so we designed the herringbone inset box detail... and I've already received the box of Ann Sacks tile, so I would hate to eliminate it now. That said, Jeff Herman at Modernaire also reommended a pot rail behind the range in the niche, just like Holligator drew above. I love, love, love that idea, but DH will kill me if I don't use that expensive tile. Not sure if I can pull the range out further because our hood is already in production and it's too late to change the dimensions- it will extend 12" in front of the brick and 15" recessed. Also, if I move the range forward, then I think I would need to shorten the island, otherwise the island would shift and protrude into the non-vaulted space in the kitchen. On the island, I don't want to lose counter length available for seating, but I do want to be sure that people are comfortable. With 14" of overhang the size of the island cabinet itself is 79"x35". Is that too big of a block? I could increase the overhang, but by doing so I lose depth in the little backside storage cabinets (11" now) for infrequently used small items. What would be an ideal tradeoff? Pots and Pans- arghh! I'm planning to put them in the base cabinets to the far left and far right of the range. For the extra deep cabinet, would it be better to do four deep drawer bins (2 and 2 side by side) instead of the three cabinet doors? I was worried about storage space for big pots and pans and serving dishes and knew that could fit them all in the extra deep cabinet with doors. Not sure if they would all fit with drawers instead? I'm glad the beverage center wall looks better- okay for the uppers to be 21" above counter? I will keep them 12" deep. You guys are amazing- many thanks!!! Fireplace shot (yes, it's a dark and depressing room, but the fireplace itself is pretty cool- ceiling will be removed and vaulted to follow roofline of attic, so fireplace will be ~1.5 stories) From Pre-Remodel Existing Butler's Pantry - I think the new one will be a big improvement. From Pre-Remodel RE: Last chance Layout advice!!! Posted by: mereanne (My Page) on Sun, Aug 16, 09 at 13:56 Rhome, we can go either way with the trash pullout and the dishwasher. It's really just a question of tradeoffs and I don't have strong feelings on what is the best solution. DW on the left: - Out of the way of the range area - Close to one upper wall cabinet for dishes DW on the right: - Out of the way of the microwave and fridge area - Close to the bank of upper wall cabinets and lower pots and pans storage DH does have strong opinions (not sure what they are yet) about the DW location because with toddlers we do dishes constantly...more than anything else we do in the kitchen. We plan to do some prep in the butlers pantry area since there is a big sink there. We prep in there today all the time and love it! RE: Last chance Layout advice!!! Posted by: bmorepanic (My Page) on Mon, Aug 17, 09 at 1:29 There are only two actual difference between doors with pullouts and drawers. 1. Some pullouts have adjustable heights, drawers don't. 2. You have to do more work more carefully with pullouts - otherwise they get damaged. Open two doors fully, pull out tray, select item, push back tray carefully and completely, close doors versus open drawer, select item, push back. If a pullout tray can be made deeper, so can a drawer. If a pullout can support higher weights, so can a drawer. I have this game I play with kitchen plans. It's called get a bowl of cereal (or other normal stuff). It's simple, trace your route to get a bowl of cereal on your plan. If I have it correctly, its around 28 feet. It's the other reason I'm expressing some concern over the location of the pantry when I don't see any other storage space for food. You can do the pot rack or a tool bar inside of the niche. Keep the tile and use it! RE: Last chance Layout advice!!! Posted by: mereanne (My Page) on Mon, Aug 17, 09 at 16:02 Oh goodness, I hadn't even considered pullouts for the cabinets there. I think I have a fundamental opposition to the idea of opening a door and then pulling out a drawer, since it's a two-step process. Actually, for that particular cabinet, I was thinking about just a standard base cab with doors on the outside and a single shelf in the middle. I know I'll have loads of storage volume by using the space that way. Definitely not as ergonomic as drawers or pullouts- but compared to the lifting and hauling and tugging of my toddlers... I'm okay with bending down for this one. I think I'll put serving dishes and really big pots and pans there (we don't use them often) and then put the smaller and more frequently used saucepans in the tall drawer bins on the left. Our range is a 40" with a frytop in the middle, so I don't plan to haul out the frying pan or griddle as much as I do now. I really do like the pot rail option as a storage behind the range and talked to our GC today about doing that. Love your bowl of cereal game! What a great way to think about layout. I think I can cut down on the 28 feet through some careful planning. I'd like to store cereal, snacks, and bread in the extra deep drawers in the island (need to recheck my dimensions to be sure they're deep enough for cereal). On the shelves at the end of the island, I'm planning to store canisters of flour, sugar, rice, oatmeal, etc. and glass jars for kids snacks. Today, I store animal crackers, goldfish, nilla wafers, and raisins in glass jars and so far the kids have been really good and haven't come close to breaking the jars or abusing easy access to snack foods. That leaves canned goods, sauce jars, and boxed foods like mac n cheese in the tall pantry cupboard. Definitely a longer distance to these items, which is a compromise. Thank you for helping me think through these issues! Post a Follow-Up Your Name: Your Email Address: Subject of Posting: Message: Optional Link URL: Name of the Link: Return to the Kitchens Forum