Now lemme look at it...or better yet someone who's good at this...

Since your stove and fridge poke out a bit, could you pull out the cabinetry on that wall a bit? Maybe not as far as the fridge, but a few inches more? That would give you more space to tuck the microwave back on the counter (I know--wrong counter) and make things a little smoother.

Consider switching the dishwasher and microwave areas.

If the DW is open, it cuts off most of the room. If it was on the other side, you have more room for 2 cooks. (this does mean you cannot open DW and oven at the same time, but that is less frequent than DW and fridge when cleaning up, IMHO.)

I'm not understanding this. Is the wall you show by the sink a half wall? With counter covering it? But then there's a cabinet hanging on it? So where is it open?

As drawn, I question the counter with stools. It's not pleasant sitting facing a wall with one's back to the room, especially with a hallway just behind. Creepy, in fact. I'd rather have a small table right in front of the door or something. Who is going to be sitting on those stools? For how long? For meals? Or just to schmooze?

have to agree with pllog. I'm not understanding what is to be gained by having a counter where you have it. if it is open to family room, I think there might be better ways to lay out kitchen.

If I had that small space, I'd move the fridge over a bit by making the 3 cabinets all 24"w. Then, the Nutid microwave could go in the last one, against the wall. Better for exhaust. The hood capture area can be widened to go to the wall. On the sink wall, I'd make the 4 cabinets all 30"w and put the 24"w dishwasher against the wall. These cabinet sizes make the drawer fronts all uniform size, which makes the esthetic cleaner and apparently larger. The top drawer can be one 30"w drawer (not two) in the 30" cabinets; this is well documented in ikeafans, it costs less, and it gives you more space.

It's all about tradeoffs. In a kitchen this small you are a one-person operation unless you agree to let someone else in to work well together with, so having a DW against the wall means only one person loads or unloads. The sink can be a single-bowl apronfront, a Bredskar, or a funny shape like the Franke Orca; note the rim in the Orca which holds things aloft at halfway down the sink wall. Inside the sink, an Ikea Boholmen tub can hold whatever needs soaking or washing. http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40114212 . I'd put drawers underneath the sink too. If apronfront yes there will be scribing required, but it's worth it.

Without finishing panels, the fridge will take less space and operate better. On the exposed side, you can put up a "wall" of thin shelves with no back, like a wall of spice rack and cute objects. This is trompe-l'oeil, fooling one's eye, because visitors will not notice the fridge being right there in full view or the lack of a back wall.

On the small riser wall over the sink, definitely do get a wallmount Karbon. The small counter that covers this half wall could be lit up from inside just like you can see in the store: Ikea Rationell lit shelves http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/60122428 ; it's an illustration of the concept, not the right product for your counter.

Putting the sink centered at 39" from the wall gives you the huge expanse of countertop that everyone loves to have, and loves to see, and loves to show off to visitors. It's an almost obscene length of counter in such a small space. It's all about tradeoffs. In a kitchen this big you are a one-person operation unless you agree to let someone else in to work well together with. I would have one more source of water, to alleviate the strain of having two people trying to get at running water at the same time. Perhaps a filtered water tap, also wallmount.

hth

The problem with moving the DW to the other side of the sink is that it would then be in the middle of the Prep Zone. Most of the prep will probably take place on the counter next to the sink and across from the range...b/c you really need a water source when prepping. It might occur on the peninsula or the peninsula side of the sink, but then it's a long walk to/from the range. Additionally, when dumping a pot of water, you will need to cross over to the sink and you don't want an open DW in the way!

A prep sink might help, depending on its location.

What I think I would rather do, is change the 24" cabinet against the wall on the sink run to an 18" cabinet. That will move the DW over 6" and should clear the refrigerator door. Even if there's not enough room to pass b/w when both the DW & refrigerator are open, you won't have the refrigerator open for long. We have a "pinch point" b/w our refrigerator and the end of a peninsula (32") and it really hasn't been a problem. The refrigerator is rarely open for more than a minute or so (at least it better not be!), so even if someone has to wait to get through, it's not a long wait (and there's rarely someone going through at the exact same time as when the refrigerator is open).

A couple of things...it looks like you still have a wall b/w the FR & Kitchen but you said you are "...opening up the wall between the kitchen and family room...". If you are opening up the wall, could you put seating on the FR side instead of where you show it now?

With the kitchen table so near, do you really need that seating where you show it? (You also have a DR through the door on the left...) If there's plenty of room for everything, then I would say go ahead with it. But, if the seating is going to cause other issues or the seating location isn't pleasant, then I would either eliminate it or find another place for it.

How big is your table area? Do you use the patio door often? Will blocking it w/a table & chairs be an issue? There doesn't appear to be enough room for a table & chairs there, even a small table. Maybe it's a bigger area than it looks...

Have you considered putting in a bench where the "full height" pantry is and putting in a reach-in pantry on the wall shared w/the stairs? It would give you a lot more pantry space, I think, and free up space in the table area. Bench seating takes up less space than chairs, so you would have more aisle space b/w the table and the refrigerator and leave more of the patio door clear for use.

Just some things to consider!

What would really help is if you answered a few of the questions in the "Read Me" thread's Layout post...particularly the ones that ask for dimensions (e.g., I don't know how wide your aisle is) and the ones about how flexible you are (e.g., moving/changing windows).

If you're still working on your layout, then it's probably a little early to start discussing finishes, etc...especially in a layout thread. Keep them in mind, but focus on the layout first...that's the most important thing at this stage. It's usually best not to have layout and finish discussions in the same thread...usually one gets answered and the other ignored or the thread is a mish-mash of discussion and it's difficult to keep track of what was said about each topic.

BTW..."finishing panels" around a refrigerator only take up 3/4" each...for a total of 1.5"...not much and the payback is well worth it! (Payback of having a refrigerator that looks built-in and not having a big metal "wall" staring at you.)

Good luck!

Thanks a lot for all the tips so far. I'm going to go through and address them later on this morning hopefully (if work slows down a bit.... sheesh). Some good idea that I haven't thought of. I'll also update my layoutr showing the opening and post it full size here (I'm new to the whole picasaweb thing...). Thanks again! You guys are great!

Dan

OK, I reshuffled my priorities. Work can wait...

Here's an updated layou:

Now, on to answering the questions.

fori:

Thanks a lot for that idea of moving the cabinets out. I'll definitely look into it. My only concern is having the face of the cabinets too close to the edge of the oven door. I don't want them to discolour over time. Is that even a concern?

juliekcmo:

Our dishwasher is rarely open during cooking, and if it is, it's only for a short period of time. During clean up, we do it in stages (fridge stuff, dishwasher stuff etc...). I also want to keep the dishwasher where it is because we're planning on having all of our dishes, glasses and silverware in the 36" drawer between the stool area and the dishwasher.

plllog:

Yes, the opening is a half wall with counter covering it (see updated sketch above). The wall cabinet will only be a 24" wide one above the stool area.

We really don't want a small table in the kitchen because we want to have clear views of the backyard. The backyard is why we purchased the house. I think the creepiness of the stool area is something we can live with since we can't think of anywhere else to put it and we really want an area for a couple of stools. Will likely be for snacks and a place for the kids to colour and stuff like that.

cpartist:

It's just a half wall opening to the family room.

davidro1:

Unfortunately, we can't move the fridge further left because of the door. There is about 9 inches between the fridge panel and the door and we have a switch and door trim to fit in there. Also, we can't move the stove further to the left (towards the fridge) because of the window. At the moment there is about 4.5" from the edge of the window to the stove. With 3.5" wide window trim, things will be tight for the chimney hood.

We want the dishwasher to stay in that location since it'll be close to the dish storage drawer (36"). Also, we don't use the dishwasher too often. We run it every 2 or 3 days at the moment.

I like the idea of uniformly sized drawer fronts, and I tried to do that originally, but couldn't.

I'll look into the single drawer for the 30" and 36" cabinets. Thanks a lot for that.

We don't like the look of apron front sinks.

We're going to stick to the fridge finishing panels.

There won't be any cabinets over the sink. We're planning on having a couple of pendants there though.

buehl:

Due to our size restraints and some things that we have prioritized (opening up the family room, stool area) having the dishwasher and fridge interfere is something we'll just deal with. It's a freezer bottom, so the dishwasher will still be able to be opened if the fridge is in use. However, it won't happen often.

I don't think we can fit in a prep sink. We'll learn to work with the one sink.

If I switch the 24" cabinet against the wall to an 18" to move the dishwasher over, then things won't work out on the other side with the 36" cabinet. I'll be left with 42".

we can't put seating in the family room because that wall will have a sofa on it (below the opening).

We won't be having a kitchen table. Only the DR table. That's why we want to have the stool area.

The isle witdh is 46" (not at the fridge).

I'd rather not get into moving the window. I breifly considered closing it off but my wife shot that idea down. It's a brick house and I'm doing all majority of the work myself (other than the gas lines).

We're sticking with the fridge finishing panels.

I think I got all the questions answered. Hopefully I don't come off as stubborn or unwilling to change. It's just that my wife and I thought of a bunch of things and I have been reading this site for a few years now so I have some background knowledge of the main concerns.

Unfortunately, we need to stick with Ikea cabinets since they are just too good to pass up at their price point. Custom would be great so we have evenly sized drawers etc... but finances just won't allow that.

Thanks again! Keep the concerns coming.

Dan

Hi Dan!

I normally don't comment on layout questions because I simply don't feel qualified but your layout is very similar to mine. Same shape/size room and large door to patio/yard. We just completed our remodel and maybe my experience will help. We were also working on a tight budget - less that $15K for new everything.

I know you said you'd like to keep your current fridge but have you thought about changing to a counter depth fridge? This made a HUGE different for us. It really changed the feel of our narrow kitchen and visually makes the room feel much larger. We had a decent fridge before the remodel and were able to sell it on Craig's List - it helped off set the cost of the new fridge.

We have a small drop leaf table with two chairs in the corner by the patio door. Like you, we love our backyard and the patio door gets some pretty heavy traffic (two preschoolers and two 70 lb dogs). A drop leaf table was a good solution for us. Opening up all the leafs adds a bit of work space. I know you said you don't want a table in this area but maybe you have a small table you could "test" with?

I took a minute and tweaked your layout in Photoshop. I'm probably missing something or making a mistake but I always find alternative options helpful. :) A compact beverage center near the pantry/buffet area might be nice for the kids have easy access to drinks/snacks without interfering with action in the kitchen. Hope this helps.

I'm also not a layout expert (I think our layout breaks almost every rule there is!)---but one thing you wrote struck me. If you bought the house for the view of the backyard, wouldn't it be advantageous to keep the sink under the window, where you'll get that view? You could put the range where the sink is and use an island hood, which would also resolve the fridge-d/w conflict.

The other thing that comes to mind is whether it might make sense to simply take out the wall between kitchen and family room and make that a large island rather than a half wall. That's a personal thing b/c half walls just bug me for some reason...but it would also give you better flow between the two rooms (if that's desirable) and an island could have storage on all four sides, so you wouldn't lose cabinet space. Of course, that's probably only a viable solution if that wall isn't load-bearing (in which case it's cheap to take out)---if it is, it could be a much bigger endeavor, and I can't tell from this plan.

Just a few thoughts...good luck!

There is a blank wall at the end of the kitchen ( the right most wall in the pictures ) which could be useful for storage and/or display of things that are not deep. Spices, oils, sauces, wine, glasses, etc. Ideally, some of this would be decanted into attractive containers (glass bottles etc). Possibly you can find room for shallow shelves 4'' to 6'' deep. Are there studs you can recess into?

As another approach, a mirror there would increase the feeling of spaciousness. Or how about shallow shelves with a mirror backing.

Addressing the island vs half-wall suggestion...Actually, if the wall is replaced w/an island you lose cabinet space b/c you have to factor in aisles at least 36" on each side of the island...so you end up with at least 6' of linear foot space less.

Speaking of that half-wall...is there a reason you're leaving any wall there? That's approx 4.5" of space you could recover and use as part of your overhang into the FR. If you're worried about plumbing, generally, all the plumbing is under the sink, not inside the wall. If you recover that 4.5" and add another 10" or so to the overhang, you could have a couple of stools there in place of or in addition to the ones in the kitchen.

As to the prep sink, I think you do have room on the window side. You could easily put one in an 18" cabinet next to the refrigerator and change the 30" cabinet to a 36" cabinet. That would not only allow you to prep in front of the window on a 36"+ counter b/w the prep sink & range, but also separate the Prep & Cooking Zones from the Cleanup Zone.

But, if your goal is to maximize counterspace, you may not want to give up the 15" to 18" of counter space to a sink. If you're worried about cost, are you on a slab or do you have a basement? If you have a basement under the kitchen, then the cost and difficulty are not very high. OTOH, if you're on a slab, then it will cost more and be more difficult for DIY.

However, your kitchen is small enough that I think you'll be OK without one as long as everyone works together nicely. Your aisle isn't all that wide...which is why, btw, I do not recommend getting deeper counters. With a "dead-end" kitchen, you don't want your aisle to be too narrow for two people trying to maneuver around in the kitchen...48" would actually be better, but 46" will work...assuming you do have 46" (I calculated 45" given an 8' (96") width for the kitchen and 25.5" on each counter). So ...
.....96" total width - 25.5" range wall - 25.5" sink wall = 45" aisle not counting the range or refrigerator protrusions. (Ranges usually stick out past the counter 1" to 3", depending on the range type.)

You didn't mention...what is your family makeup (although you do mention children coloring)? Will your kitchen be a one-person or multi-person kitchen? Since you have children, plan for them to be cooking & cleaning up in the future alongside you and your wife.

OK, no table. Do you have any plans for the fairly large empty space in front of the patio door? It seems a pity to have that much wasted space....

Just thought of something...your current refrigerator appears to be around 33" wide. In the future, you may have difficulty purchasing one that narrow. It's becoming more and more difficult finding one less than 36" wide x 72" tall. A 36" width appears to be becoming "standard". I highly recommend building an alcove 36" x 72" and using filler to fill in the gaps on the sides and, if needed, on the top. You don't want to be one of those people we get here (and on the Appliances Forum) every once in a while in a panic trying to find a new refrigerator small enough to fit their existing alcove.

Yes, that means cutting into your counter space on the right by 3", but I think in the long-term, it will be worth it. It probably also means nixing the prep sink idea I suggested above, b/c you'll be losing 3" unless you moved the range over 3" toward the wall, that would then give you 12" + 2" of space b/w the range & wall...14", which is enough for landing space and maybe a little working room. It's also enough that you won't be hitting the wall w/your elbow.

A French door refrigerator would reduce the obstruction when the door is open. If the wall between kitchen and family room were moved 1 foot, since you are removing much of it anyway, you'd get more aisle width and probably eliminate most or all of the appliance door conflicts. That is similar to buehl's point about why give up appx 5'' to a half wall at all?

A last thought - if you removed the wall entirely, used an island, with cabinets along the right most wall, you might end up with similar storage (I haven't done the math) while being able to walk from family room into kitchen. I realize the couch location would have to change.

It just seems a bit odd to have the kitchen ''open to'' the family room but not be able to actually move between the rooms. I can't come up with a reason why it seems odd to me, so ignore if that doesn't bother you.

Hi,

Thanks again for the responses. I'll try to address everything.

svs128:

a counter depth fridge would be nice, but it's just not in the budget. I'll look into this a bit more though. That would make things much better.

I just tried putting a table in my sketch and it just doesn't work. The previous owners had one there and my wife and I didn't like it at all.

artemis78:

Our main goal is to open up the wall to the family room. THis means moving the fridge to the opposite wall. If I leave the sink under the window, I'll only have 18" or so to the left of the sink which isn't enough in my opinion. Also, I think an island hood would pretty much close off the new opening between the kitchen and family room.

My wife originally wanted to remove the wall completely and put in some sort of island but we just don't have enough room for one.

johnliu:

the current plan for that blank wall is to cover it a stacked slate similar to what is shown below. we'll be doing the fireplace in the family room in the same stuff.

buehl:

the half wall will be there to provide some sort of barrier for splashes from the sink going into the family room, as well as provide some where to mount the wall mount karbon faucet. we'll have a sofa on that wall (or part of a sectional at least) since the fireplace is on the right hand wall and the tv will go on the south (bottom) wall. Good thinking though.

The area just to the right of the fridge is where we'll likely be putting our toaster oven. It's used all the time and I want it sort of hidden from view if possible.

We do have a basement. i'm not at all worried about redoing anything like plumbing or whatever. At the moment I'm redirecting ductwork that is currently going up the load bearing wall that is getting opened up. I'll be putting in the beam and such as well (I'm a structural engineer and DIYer).

I think we'll be good with the one main sink. I guess I never really even considered having a prep sink because our kitchen is so small. We have considered putting on an extension, but figured we would make do with what we have. We typically only have 1 cook at a time in there.

There's my wife and 2 young kids. They'll be helping out when they're old enough for sure. All four of us probably won't be in there at once. If we are, it'll be much better than it currently is.

No plans for the open space at the moment. Although, when I sort of lay out the fridge and the stool area in real life, the large space doesn't seem so large. I wouldn't consider it wasted.

Thanks again for all your help. I'm going to make a note to start looking at counter depth fridges and see what I come up with.

Dan

You may already know this site, but I found AJ Madison to be extremely helpful when researching appliances.

We have an Electrolux, model EI23BC36I, and really love it.

Here is a link that might be useful: AJ Madison

My two cents (which is really worth most likely one cent)...as your layout shows and not taking into account the excellent comments already posted....

I would move the microwave over into the 24'' cabinet next to the refrig. I would rather have a short-tiem, small space conflict between loading the DW and using the Micro rather than the cooktop and the micro.

But then again, this might have already been addressed above but I'm in a hurry and did not read everything carefully.

Pepper
~ Another 'small' kitchen owner. : )

@buehl, I'm curious---the reason I was thinking he wouldn't lose any cabinet space is that, while you'd need wider aisles and lose overall length, right now there are cabinets on only one of the long sides of the half wall, but with an island there could be cabinets on both of the long sides....is this not an option with island widths? (I have no clue about island planning, so possibly this wouldn't work for reasons I don't know about!) Moot since they don't want an island, but just curious if my thinking was flawed. :)

(And yes, agreed that an island hood would close up the space with a half cutout---probably only wise if you opened that wall entirely.) Another thought if you don't get a french door refrigerator is to see if you can fiddle with the fridge wall and get the fridge into the corner and reverse the swing (if that's an option with your refrigerator). It does seem awkward to have it block the entry when it's open, even if that's not often. We have that situation now and are not big fans of it.

We have one sink in a medium-sized kitchen and think it's fine, FWIW.

I just realized your refrigerator alcove already appears to be 36" wide...is that the case?

Hi Dan,

It seems that you could use more of that space where the stools are in your current layout - specifically that bit of wall at the bottom. Here are 2 thoughts where you get space for stools, but the counter is bigger.

With a bigger counter there, you could tuck stools underneath and use it for a buffet or for staging items moving from the kitchen to DR; for example when you have people over for a meal.

In the first you could have some shallow storage below (for seldom-used items) and perhaps upper cabinets as well.

Either of these would require support - e.g. legs near the front edge and perhap cabinet boxes along the wall portions.

{{gwi:1952159}}

A curved counter (not necessarily the shape I mocked up here) could make more of a smooth transition from that lower doorway into the kitchen area. This could look really pretty done in granite and kind of flowing into the neighboring counter. Again, this would need some kind of support below.

{{gwi:1952160}}

A couple notes:
The sink counter is 36", 24", 36", 24", 24".
Look at if you make it 30", 24", 30", 24", 24".
Then you get to incorporate chicagoans idea, or you get to have a continuous run of shallow shelves/drawers instead of one only as in your drawings above (perpendicular to the main kitchen). Also, a minor thing, but will mean a lot to internet advisors :- ) is that you make the DW open 3" away from the freezer. ; - ) .

I'm assuming you are still considering a large single bowl sink about 30" ((I didn't see any rebuttal of that idea yet.))

2/ On the sink side, you can reduce the depth a couple inches. A Miele DW is short in that dimension (distance front to back) as are other Euro DW. Ikea cabinets can be cut down to a tad less than 21" deep. This is well documented in ikeafans.com . It gives you more space for knees. I did this in my galley kitchen similar to yours. Then, I got what I thought was a HUGE counter overhang and it ended up looking like the puniest overhang worthy of its name, in my opinion. Visitors don't even notice it. It's just one of many features that make my kitchen a well thought out space. Counter to counter I have 43" to 44" distance, while drawer front to drawer front I have 46" to 46.5". We love it. No matter how many people are circulating in the kitchen, it feels roomy and this may be because the base cabinet fronts are "recessed" compared to the counter.

3/ The fridge-oven counter is Fr, 24" 30", Range 30", and a last cabinet, which can be custom filler sized. Consider doing it this way: Fr, 30", 24", Range 30", and a last cabinet, filler sized. Then, you can fit the microwave in the 24" Next To The Range and enjoy using the exhaust for All Cooking Odors. Toaster Oven too.

4/ Pulling cabinets forward means you have to work harder to ensure the squareness of your cabinets when you fix them mechanically to whatever support you have provided.

5/ Microwave drawers that pull out need a bit more than 24". Good to know if you want to leave the option open for that later.

6/ Since the fronts are not Ikea, you can have one last cabinet in the run made by someone else. Get Blum glides and it will look and feel like Ikea. I have some drawers from Blum, some from Ikea. There are many minor differences, but it is still true to say "they are the same".

Work schmurk... You guys are keeping me busy! Thanks!

svs128:

Thats funny because being here in Canada I checked out the Sears Canada site and it doesn't filter very well. After going to another site I finally thought of going to AJ Madison and then looking up anything I find there here in Canada to see what the ridiculous exchange rate mark up is. Unfortunately, I couldn't really find anything that struck me as a possibility. I'll search again, but we can't spend $4000+ (Electrolux fridge price up here).

txpepper:

that idea might give me some flexibility with having the microwave next to the fridge and moving the dishwasher to the other side of the stove. I'll look into that further.

artemis78:

we don't like french door fridges. it's just n issue we have for some unknown reason... I tried moving the fridge to the corner (see below). We can reverse the swing on our current fridge. Doing that moved the stove to the fridge spot between the door and window. It also allowed an 18" wide drawer to the left of the stove. It definitely opens things up and would likely look better and more open. My only concern is having to walk through the kitchen to get to the fridge. I'm also concerned about the door swinging open into the stacked stone wall we have planned. I guess a strtegicall placed bumper would prevent that. I'll run the idea by my wife. Would also save on the stacked stone, but would cause some questions as to how hight the backsplash tile goes between the window and door.... I'm a tile to the ceiling kind of guy (8' ceilings). I know, those are details that will be ironed out later. Having the stove across from the dishwasher causes door clashes as well, but the two are rarely open at the same time. With this design, they'll never be open at the same time...

buehl:

Yes, fridge alcove is 36". Using Ikea cabinets and also want to alow flexibility for future fridge purchases. The opening will be made smaller with trim to give a nicer look.

chicagoans:

thanks a lot for the sketches. The door leading into the kitchen will be widened about 9" so the available wall space will be similar to the length of the stool counter I currently have drawn up. The way it is now also has the stools facing into the kitchen. I like the idea of adding some sort of curve to the counter though. Thanks!

Thanks again for all the ideas!

Going to run that fridge against the wall idea by my wife tonight.

Dan

I wouldn't put the fridge into the far corner. It would make the space seem small, when you can see everything, all four corners, all items, no matter where you are in the space. Having it where it was initially, there is a small peekaboo effect as you move around and "new views" get uncovered.

In my post a few minutes ago I should have said that the kitchen counter would still be 12' after reducing those two 36" cabinets to 30".

Davidro1,

Guess I was typing while you were posting earlier.

will look into the 30" cabinets, but I don't think moving the stool counter to the bottom wall will work out. Don't think the smaller cabinets will be worth the off chance of the dishwasher being open when the freezer is.

Actually, my wife was totally opposed to a large single bowl sink. I was open to the idea but when I suggested it a while back, she shot the idea down. We handwash some dishes and let them dry in the second bowl. I know, we could use a drying rack... I'm picking my battles though.

I understand what you're saying about the shallower countertops, but I don't think that idea is going to fly for us. I want to get as big of a sink as possible. I also don't want to limit my dishwasher choices in the future. You never know, GE might come out with something...

I'm reconsidering the placement of the microwave. Your idea is a good one. My only concern is that I planned on having the pots in the 30" drawer next to the stove. We only really use the microwave for heating up milk and stuff like that. Thawing chicken... No real cooking going on in there.

I see what you mean about the totally open kitchen idea. Although, the only thing that the fridge would be hiding in it's current location is the toaster oven. True, it's not that nice looking, but it'll likely get replaced in the future. It's one of those Panasonic ones. Moving the ffridge will allow more light from the window in... I'll update tomorrow as to what my wife and I discussed tonight.

Thanks again. You guys are a wealth of knowledge.

Dan

Based on your original layout, I would keep the dishwasher on the same side as the sink, as I would think you do not want to rinse and drip your dishes over to the other side of the aisle.

And I agree, if you have the refrig over in the corner ala the new layout, the traffic underfoot will increase....think about your kids going back and forth for juice, etc.

about the fridge in the corner: you need a few (or several) inches of filler between the fridge and the wall to open the fridge door past 90 degrees. This is so you can get the drawers all the way out for cleaning. Several inches is probably more accurate, since you need to account for the fridge handle too.

If your door doesn't open past 90 degrees, it will make the space on the right side of the fridge less accessible.

Latest layout...

You now have an unprotected range and a DW in the middle of your Prep & Cooking Zones...not conducive to a functional work space. All traffic to the refrigerator will now have to pass through every primary zone (Prep, Cooking, Cleanup). It's rarely a good idea to "trap" the refrigerator inside a kitchen like this.

The refrigerator will need somewhere b/w 6" and 12" of filler (or cabinet) b/w it and the wall.

Take a look at the Samsung counter depth fridges. Quite a bit cheaper than the Electrolux's, and they get good reviews (for the most part). We are very happy with ours, but it is french door.

I would rethink your aversion to french door fridges. Most prefer them.

Good luck!

Everybody is different and that's what makes it fun. I'd be more tempted to go ahead and open to the family room and reschedule the slider to be placed in the dining area.
{{gwi:1952162}}

You gouys are really keeping me busy over here. Thanks a lot!

Well, I showed my wife the fridge in the corner layout and she really likes it despite the fact that the toaster oven will now be visible. We discussed the going through the kitchen to get to the fridge thing and we seem fine with it. We have 2 girls so it's not like we'll have 4 football playing boys running through there all the time. Also, drinks tend to be water from the tap, but I know, things change. Anyways we also talked about the stove being close to the end and a bit "exposed". Again, the kids are getting older and they're very good with staying away from the stove as it is now. So, on to responses.

txpepper:

as mentioned above, extra traffic shouldn't be a big deal. We'll run a mock up tonight to see how it goes!

Yeah, I agree, dishwasher stays next to the sink. Not 100% sure which side. Microwave placement is up in the air at the moment.

chicagoans:

see the new sketch below. I now have two 24" cabinets between the stove and fridge and moved the fridge further away from the wall. There is 5.5" between the side of the fridge and the finished wall assuming the stacked slate stuff comes out 1.5" (it won't) from the face of the drywall. Door opens past 90 degrees with those dimensions. I'll use a filler strip in that space. I lose 6" of drawer though... but can probably add it to the cabinet on the left side of the stove making that 24" instead of 18". I'll need to double check some dimensions tonight.

buehl:

I'm not too concerned about the dishwasher since it's not used too often. We load and unload after meals are done with. Even prep dishes for the most part. At the moment, we feel that having the fridge in the corner is better than the original location since it will open up the space more. We understand that we have a much less than ideal space to work with. Fridge has 5.5" as mentioned above in the layout posted in this message. I think that should do fine. I'll verify tonight.

pudgybaby:

I just did a quick search and couldn't find a samsung in 22 cubic foot. Granted, I only checked one site...

bmorepanic:

WHOA! Thats just nuts! I like the way you think but unfortunately, having the door in the dining room just won't work for us. We'll have hardwood in there and that just wouldn't work with kids coming in with dirty shoes etc... Would also need to build the deck over to the dining room which would cover up a basement window which i plan on making larger for more light in the basement (future project). Thanks for the effort though.

OK. I really have to get a bot of work done now so I can pay for all this...

Thanks again!

Dan

Blanco "Gemma Plus"
http://www.blancocanada.ca/frames/BlancoStart.htm#/pages/gemma.htm
http://www.blancocanada.ca/frames/BlancoStart.htm#/pages/DC-St-Produc00-SILGR3-Sil0-GEMMA000.htm
"Extra-large with sink-within-a-sink option"
"Both colander and rinsing bowl are designed so that they can fit into either side of the sink bowl."
"The GEMMA rinsing bowl creates a smaller sink within a sink"
This is one of the few kitchen sinks that has an overflow hole.

Very hard to get a feel for this by viewing the small images on their web site.

-- Overhanging large counter on recessed cabinets:
Here is some detail to make this clear: Keeping the countertops the same size as you wish at all times, you can reduce the volume of the base underneath them, and still have the same storage volume inside these very same cabinets. Nothing is lost. My point about getting a wider aisle was more subtle than a "shallower countertop". You can have a huge countertop (as I do) on top of shallower cabinetry. This increases leg room. Knees need to bend when people walk. ((Quote: ".... understand what you're saying about the shallower countertops, but I don't think that idea is going to fly for us. I want to get as big of a sink as possible. I also don't want to limit my dishwasher choices in the future. ...." in this quote there are misconceptions.)) 2/ This allows you sink to be mammoth sized too. Furthermore, sinks never take the full depth from the front of the counter to the back wall, in any case. You'll see that when you look again, at the dimensions. 3/ For a few technical reasons, DW will not become larger, and especially not in the front-to-back dimension, in order to remain standard with cabinets. E.g. Ever since DWs have been made to be more and more silent, they use two small quiet motors instead of one hunking big one. This allowed the "tall tub" to come onto market (less space needed at the bottom for the machinery), and this translated into a lot of additional volume these days compared to the volume inside a 1980-1990 generation DW. Just f.y.i. This is information, not a strong recommendation to cut the cabinets down. Since you are handy, you Could Do It. If it becomes a major thing to maximize aisle width or apparent space, recessed cabinets with a large overhang counter gives you the same countertop as ever while increasing the room you have to maneuver in.

HTH

Dan if you put the fridge next to the wall in the corner (not my first choice but hey it's your kitchen!) you can make that filler between the refrigerator and the wall really useful with a pull out broom closet. This is one of those things I wish I had seen prior to my reno.

There are some threads on this, which I can't find right now. I believe the pictures below come from the IKEA Fans forum, but I can't find them there right now either. Anyway, with apologies for now knowing the source and thanks to whoever posted these originally, here are 2 photos of a pull out broom closet, created out of a mere 4" or so of space. This is great space utilization IMHO.

Open:
{{gwi:1444238}}

Closed - it's that narrow 4" strip to the right of the ref:
{{gwi:1612704}}

Since there's no such thing as a perfectly straight wall, you'd still need a bit of filler between the pullout and the wall, but that should be minimal.

For the space in between the corner and the fridge, you should check out the IKEA broom closet hacks---they're brilliant and would fit perfectly in that space, especially since you're getting custom doors anyway so it would be easy to get one the right size. Might need to tweak the design to make it one-sided v. two, but I think that would be relatively simple to do.

I think there are better/more directions on IKEAFans, but I'll link to a GW post on it too.

Also, not sure if you are still exploring counter-depth fridges, but if so, KitchenAid also makes a 36" single-door counter-depth that's decently spacious (20 cu ft) and decently cheap---which is only to say that it's under $2K---still not "cheap" per se. (Can you tell I'm fridge shopping?!?) But if you keep it in the corner, seems like a good place to just use what you have and worry about the depth when you need to replace it, too.

Here is a link that might be useful: Brilliant broom closet fillers!

Since you already own the ref, you might measure how far the door needs to be open in order to get the drawers out.

Hi!

Davidro:

Interesting sink that Gemma, but we're looking for an undermount in stainless. My wife won't go for the single bowl... Going to look into the Orca just in case, but it's doubtful.

I know what you mean about the overhang. I'll put it on my list/sketch. Taking an inch or two off of the Ikea cabinet is simple. I know there's plenty of space behind the drawers as I have them in both my bathrooms. I don't understand why they're not full depth.

chicagoans:

I bookmarked a couple of pages about the pullout broom closet. We don't use a broom, but I'm sure we could fit something in there. It'll be on my list/sketch.

artimes78:

Thanks for the additional links. Going to put it on the list/sketch.

bmorepanic:

It's already on my list of things to do tonight! Also going to do the pretend cooking at the pretend stove to see how much room here is behind. Also have to measure some pots and see how they fit in. I've got 18" wide Ikea drawers in the ensuite. Going to be a fun evening!

Dan

NOVA 8S sink. Double sink with drainboard. Fits inside 30" from wall to wall. 30" distance from sink wall to sink wall. Undermount or drop-in.

http://www.blancocanada.com/frames/BlancoStart.htm#/pages/DC-St-Produc00-SILGR3-Sil0-Nov2.htm

Total 45.75" exterior dimension. The drainboard being integrated might be a money saver for you. Less counter to pay for. Works well if you have a clear idea how to use strips of counter material (stone or Ikea wood counter) to fill around it. You are handy.

This allows you to make all your cabinets 30" w on that counter run. No 36" Everything standardized ( spare parts and purchasing).

Been doing a bit of thinking (and working) so haven't really had a chance to post.

Davidro:

Thanks again for the suggestion, but I'm not into the Silgranit or the drainage area. As far as I'm concerned, taking away counter space is a bad thing.

As for the other things, I stood int he future stove area and there was plenty of space behind me for others to get by. I don't think thats an issue.

Measured the fridge and will need to incorporate the dimensions into the layout. They're pretty close as they are now, probably a 1/4" here and there off.

Opening my fridge to 90 degrees gives me access to pretty much everything easily. If I need to take drawers out (which I do like once a year now) I can either pull the fridge out or just remove some of the door storage shelves (they pop in and out easily). So, where I have it now is pretty good in terms of placement.

I'm thinking of getting a 36" wide vent hood instead of the 30". i've been doing more reading and it seems like everyone is going 6" wider than the range/cooktop, especially with gas. Also, I'm thinking in the future, when this stove dies (hpefully not for a while) we'll get something a bit more high performance, but still 30" wide. Anyways, in order to get a 36" hood in, I need to switch the 24" cabinet to the left of the stove in the layout above to a 30" which is better for pots too. The cabinet on the left side of the stove will stay at 18". I'll have to rip my door trim down a bit, but oh well, can't have it all I suppose.

So, I'll try to get my plan updated a bit although there aren't any huge changes at the moment. Still thinking about microwave placement.

Have to do a rough layout for my laundry room as well. We're moving it from the main floor to the basement and the plumber that is coming to do the kitchen drains is going to do the laundry room rough in as well so need to get that planned out.

Bye for now!

Thanks!

Dan

It's been a while. My wife and I did some discussing and the final layout is below. I went and picked up all of the cabinets including the drawers at Ikea this week since the Kitchen sale is on. They're now waiting patiently in my basement until installation (6 months or so).

Some small changes that I've made since last time:

1) the door leading into the kitchen has been widened and is now updated in the sketch. There will be a newel post and a short section of railing (a few inches) there (green square) to prevent anyone from falling down the basement stairs.

2) I switched from two 24" cabinets to a 24 and a 30" to the right of the sink (on plan) so that I can make a deeper counter at the stool area.

3) Cabinet to the left of the stove is only 15", but in order to make it bigger I would have had to use a 24" drawer unit for pots instead of 30" as well as use a 30" fan instead of 36".

Overall we're pleased with it considering the space we had to work with.

So, I guess the next phase is picking finishes and stuff. Heading out in a few minutes to a local tile store to see what works with the birch hardwood in the adjacent rooms.

Thanks for any additional comments you may have!

Dan

Good luck with the choices! Saw this thread a little too late to throw my 2 cents in, which was going to say put the range where your fridge door is going to swing and put a hood over that, flanked by counters on either side, would have made for an interesting focal point.

Hi jgopp,

It's never too late to make a comment, well, except in this case. :)

What you're suggesting is what our layout is right now and we hate it. The U shape creates corners that are pretty much useless for storage unless we spend like $1000 X 2 for one of those Halele kidney shaped lazy susan type of things. Even then, we like the openness of the new layout, at least on paper.

Choices aren't going to be too hard to make. We have a basic idea of what we want.

Dan

Just wanted to provide a quick update for all of those people that were waiting patiently by their computers refreshing this page every 5 minutes....

Demolition of the current kitchen is to happen this Saturday. A lot of it has already been removed and repurposed in the dining room as a temporary kitchen.

The opening between the kitchen and family room is done and is great. Much brighter in the family room.

Tile has been purchased. Chiselled edge Philidelphia Travertine in a cobblestone pattern.

Cabinets (without doors) were purchased from IKEA during their sale several months ago.

Kohler Karbon wall mount came from Faucets4cheap.com. Awesome looking faucet in real life. Can't wait to use it.

Ticor S3530 undermount 0 radius sink ordered from Mainfaucet.com. Galaxytool was out of stock and these guys could get them faster. Price matched Galaxy.

Nutid microwave from Ikea is also ready and waiting in the basement along with the rest of the stuff. Can't wait to finish this off. Hope to have the room re-insulated and drywalled by the end of February and tiled by the end of March. Kitchen has to be done by the end of the summer.

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

Dan