My initial thought: your kitchen looks really small in comparison to your dining and living space. Is that intentional? Because your kitchen is "tucked away" in that nook, it really limits your counter space and cabs. Also limits the size of your island.

What about flipping your dining table vertical, to allow the kitchen to expand left (and your island too), or better yet, put the dining in the nook, and put the kitchen where the dining is - with a much larger island to overlook and overflow into the living space?

I know you might not be asking to make such changes, but thought I'd just throw it out there for you to consider. Wouldn't want you to feel 'cramped' when you really do have the space to create a larger kitchen. Hope that helps!

One thing jumped out: *everyone* will walk through the kitchen. Not through the working space, but still. In fact, your visitors will see the working and private areas of the house before they enter the living room.

Another: where will you keep your dishes? There isn't any storage right close to the dishwasher.

I'd probably wrap a U with the middle being the fridge wall-each arm or side extends to about the position where dishwasher/range are. then do a bit bigger squarish island pushed out somewhat with seating-perhaps on 3 sides. The large table could be pushed further to the left except for the opening of a small door[?]......what is the plan for that..could it be eliminated or positioned elsewhere. in time, this type of layout being very open will definitely play well with a significant island.....the one you are planning is too small. the bit of wall installed isn't going to interfere with getting into hall and points beyond, namely pantry, because it's out of the kitchen area anyway and with a bigger island and a bit more wall you will grow your kitchen actually. 34 feet across between dining and kitchen...you could have your dining zone and even double islands with just the one far right wall in kitchen. play with island configurations a bit more-it will suit your space.

Seems like you have a lot of wasted hallway space in the plan. Where does the pantry hallway lead?

The kitchen size does not seem in the right size comparied to the laundry, powder room, and pantry. While I like the size of the laundry and powder room it seem the kitchen is too small.

Was this a stock plan or designed by an architect?

The powder room is really about twice the size it needs to be, but still wouldn't work for wheelchair access if that is a concern, because of the shape.

I agree that the kitchen seems a bit tight for the overall size of the plan, and the DW is in an awkard relationship with the range.

If you are doing a true-counter-depth, built in refrigerator, as it's drawn is accurate. If you are doing a "counter depth" conventional refrigerator, it will stick out 4-5" more. If you are using a full depth fridge it will stick out almost a foot more than drawn, which will make that aisle tight, and present it's side to the main hallway of the house.

Thanks for all of the comments. We are pretty happy with the general layout of the first floor. It may not fit everyone's needs, but it works with ours. The pantry hallway leads to the garage.

We are fairly happy with the size of the kitchen. We don't need a huge kitchen. We could push the location of the door to the patio if we really felt like we needed the kitchen to extend. But we don't think it is necessary. If we increase the size of the island that should give us lots of counter space.

So I guess I will ask some specific questions:
1. How big do you think the island could be? Is 4'X6' too big?
2. We are thinking of putting the sink and the dishwasher in the counter by the fridge. That would leave the whole island as counter space. What do you think of that?
3. We have even thought about swapping everything and putting the oven and cooktop on the shorter part of the L, and the fridge and sink on the other part of the L. Any thoughts?

I would explore taking the door and window behind the dining table out. In its place I would place a large bank of french doors or some combination of doors and windows in the center of this wall, something similar in size to what is in the front of the living space.

This would allow you to have a peninsula and create a solid functioning u-shape kitchen. Depending on the placement of appliances and work zones, the new space this provides sight lines both inside and outside for whoever is working in the kitchen.

I think I would add a sink in the laundry room or pantry room.

In the kitchen, where do you put your dirty dishes? If you're very good about immediately putting all dishes in the dishwasher (I'm not) then the island sink/dishwasher might work for you. If not, then I'd consider swapping the sink and range.

Many people don't like an island range, on the forum, but with a raised counter behind for stools, it should be okay. You can have a downdraft vent or overhead...but if you fry chicken, have might have people move to the table :)

What would you think about extending the wall by the refrigerator, putting the refrig on this new wall, facing the stove, putting the double oven on the old refrigerator wall, and making the stove wall into a peninsula that extends out about 78" beyond the existing counters-8'6" is a large area to have people seated/helping cook/doing homework? This is where I would put the sink and the dishwasher, facing into the dining/living rooms. I would also do a raised bar to keep some of the clutter from being too visible from said areas.
To create this peninsula, you would have to change out the exterior door and the windows in the dining room, maybe into a bank with sliding french doors in the middle . It could mimic the windows on the front wall in the living room.
This would make the kitchen a bit larger and still allow a seating area at the counter. The existing door would be out of the way. The refrigerator will be accessible without everyone having to get in the way of the cook(s). Coming from the master bedroom, you would only have to walk an extra 4-5' to get into the kitchen, yet the area will have been so much more expanded. Since the stove area will be visible from the living room, you might want to do something special with this area, bring the cabinets on either side out 3-4" creating a nook if you were going for a traditional/transitional look or a glass topped vent with open shelving on either side for a more modern look.. It should have a spectacular backsplash.

A new home! How exciting! Hopefully we can help you make the most of your kitchen's space.

Where does that door beneath the stairs lead to? A closet? Or a basement?

Is the area marked as pantry all pantry? It looks like there will be cabs and counter with uppers but that could also be cabs plus mud room benches and storage. Personally, I'd prefer to have my pantry in the kitchen, not down a hallway. If you reduced the size of the powder room - it really is disproportional to the kitchen - you could put pantry cabs here, which would be much more convenient when cooking.

Here's how: Reduce the length by 2', switch location of sink and toilet, and move door to the center of the wall. The toilet will be hidden from view by the door, even when open. You have enough room to do a vanity (room to store extra rolls of toilet paper).

I haven't a clue what you mean by "the sink almost facing the fridge" so I can't offer any feedback on that idea.

If you're going to have your sink and DW in your island, I think you'll be happier with a 7' to 7.5' island so that you have at least 24" of space on either side of your sink. Even without encroaching into the DR, you have enough room to lengthen the island to 7' 10" and still have a 48" aisle counter to counter between perimeter and island, which would still allow a decent aisle from full depth fridge door to island counter, especially if you recess it into the wall behind it (highly recommend this). This will also give more of a built-in look.

Are you planning for seating at the island? You would need 44" aisles between counter edge and wall so that there's enough aisle room to walk behind anyone seated at the counter. If your space is 12' from wall to wall, top to bottom, then you're already tight on aisle space. Here's how I made that conclusion:
144" = 12'
- 25.5" = cab depth plus counter overhang for perimeter cabs
- 25.5" = island cabs plus counter overhang
- 12" = island overhang (assuming you went with min rec for 42" bar seating)
-------
81" or 40.5" for each aisle. That's less than the minimum rec for a one cook kitchen. It's unlikely that you'll be able to have the DW door open and unload into perimeter base cabs across from the DW. I have a 39" aisle between DW and the side of my island (no cabs facing this way) and when my DW is open, there's only 14" of clearance.

I suppose your kitchen could be 12' from wall to bottom edge of island - in which case, you'd have a ridiculous 81" aisle between cooktop and island - but judging the space by the width of the fridge, I think it's 12' from wall to wall.

Given that, I don't think you can deepen the island, nor should you add seating to it.

As for wall ovens ... I'm not a fan of putting a tall thing, either fridge or wall oven cab, at the open end of a counter run. It boxes a space in plus it blocks light flow. Or were you thinking that you'd put a wall oven below the counter?

Where is your MW? It looks like you're doing a range hood not a MW hood. Are you doing a MW drawer?

Is there a reason why you have a patio door and a French door in the same space? IMO, I think the space would look more cohesive if you went with one or the other, not both. It would certainly make choosing window coverings easier.

Oh, one last thing. If you decide to keep that large powder room, switch the sink and toilet to the opposite wall (same wall as the door). you've plenty of room to do this and then, for sure, you won't see the toilet when the door is open.

This post was edited by lisa_a on Thu, Sep 12, 13 at 23:17

Thanks again for all of the thoughtful comments. I will answer a couple of questions as well as let you know our current thinking. The door under the stairs is to a closet. (I wish it was a basement, but we are in Central Texas and they are very difficult to do here). You are right that in the pantry there will first be some mudroom style benches and hangers, and then the pantry storage. We are also planning on eliminating the door at the end of the dining room and just making that a window.

--We think we are going to flip the layout of the kitchen. On the long side of the L (the 14' side) we are going to put the fridge, dishwasher and sink. This way, the fridge which gets used the most won't be near the main walkway of the house.
--On the other side we will put the cooktop and wall oven (we are probably going to do a wall oven/microwave combo there). We are only planning to do a 30" cooktop, so there will still be space on both the left and the right of it.
--Then we will make the island basically as big as we can while still leaving 48" pathways. This will give us lots of counter space on the island. If we have seating at the island, it will only be at the end near the dining room. I don't want people clogging up the pathways.
--We will also probably put a little bit of pantry storage right beside the wall oven. This will be for the everyday stuff like cereal, etc. while the other stuff can be in the other pantry space.

We are also going to shrink the powder room, and make a charging station, message center cabinet area. I also like the idea of making it so you don't see the toilet when you open the door.

Great comments by everyone. I would also like to suggest some ideas for early-stage kitchen layout. Choose classic style kitchen for your house. Incorporate lot of lights, include worktops and suitable sinks. Make sure that the kitchen layout is perfect to access the accessories and flexible to cook.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tambaram Modular Kitchen

Dang, I think we just got spammed! The above poster signed up today and their post is rather generic. Click on the link at your own risk. ;-)

sboivie, Why not turn the under-stairs closet into a walk-in pantry? That's what I have and I absolutely love it! It gives me as much storage as 48" of pantry cabs, even with a sloping ceiling. You can create a closet where you have the pantry now. That puts storage in the hallway, out of the kitchen zone and pantry goods in the kitchen. This also means you won't need to add a pantry cab next to the ovens (I don't quite see how this would fit anyway).

Speaking of ovens.... how wide is the area where you're putting the cook top and the oven/MW column? It looks like you have about 72" from wall to corner (using the fridge as a guide), which means that you'll have little space between cab and cook top. Oven cabs are 30" to 33" for a 30" oven, depending on cab manufacturer and oven specs. You could gain 4.5" by eliminating the end wall and having the oven cab sides end that run. Even so, at best you'd have about 16" between 30" oven cab and cook top placed right at the corner. That placement makes it hard for more than one person to be at the cook top.

Is your kitchen 12" from wall to wall, top to bottom? If so, you're going to have a pinch point between full depth fridge door and island counter because you already have narrowish aisles.

I understand wanting to have an island free and clear but you've got limited perimeter space so I think you should consider putting the sink and DW there or the cook top. Venting is more expensive for an island cook top but you have a large enough island to put a cook top there, especially if you stretch it to 7'10" as I noted you can. Then you're perimeter can hold fridge, oven/MW column, sink and DW.

Another option is to put DW and sink on the far right with fridge, then oven/MW at the far left end with cook top between them and the right hand corner. Then add a prep sink to the island. That gives you a good work triangle and a dedicated clean-up zone. It also means that you can shorten the island to eliminate the pinch point between island and fridge (you need room to maneuver it in and out of location for repairs and such, not just room to get by on a regular basis).

I hope this makes sense. It's late and I should be in bed! Signing off....

lisa_a: We want the under the stairs storage to be some of the storage for our Christmas stuff. The big reason the pantry is where it is, is that my wife has always wanted to have pantry space near the garage so that when you bring home groceries you can put many of them away right as you come in.

I have been using the the IKEA planner to help me visualize as I make changes (although we won't be using IKEA cabinets). So here are the dimensions of the layout I described above. I definitely want to avoid pinch points, but it feels like there is necessary space beside both the cooktop and the sink.

Long L (14')
36" fridge, 18" of cabinets, 24" DW, 36" sink cabinet, 18" of cabinets, then corner cabinet 37"
Short L (12')
Corner cabinet 37", 15" of cabinets, 30" cooktop, 15" of cabinets, 15" pantry cabinet, 30" wall oven/MW cabinet. (with a couple of inches free).
Island 52"x97" Which leaves 48" between island and fridge and 48" between island and wall oven.

It might better to have all tall cabs/appliances on the short wall so that the light from the DR will not be blocked and add a prep sink to the island.

So, you can have on the long wall 18" cab, DW, 36" sink, 24" cab, 30" cooktop, 36" corner. Short wall, 36 corner, 24" (or 27") cab , 30 " wall oven, 36" fridge, 15" pantry.

Island would probably be a little shorter than 97"

If the only water source is that one sink, then please!, don't condemn the OP to only a 24" cabinet b/w the sink and cooktop! That's what I had in my old kitchen and I absolutely hated it! I couldn't wait to get to get more space!!! From my point of view, it was the #1 reason we remodeled - to fix that major functional defect! From my DH's point of view, it was the falling apart cabs...but, honestly, the lack of adequate prep space in the right place was more of an issue...I cooked, he didn't!

24" is far, far too small a space for prepping and, if there is only one sink in the kitchen or one sink convenient to the cooktop, that IS where prepping will take place!

If there's a second sink in the island that's placed right, then the 24" will probably be OK - as long as you train yourselves not to put dirty dishes in that space - you need it for workspace and emergency landing space for the cooktop.

What we haven't heard yet and would really help, is more information about Sboivie's family and how they plan to use the kitchen. Without that information, we're making generic recommendations in the dark.

If he hasn't already, I'd like to suggest to Sboivie that he read the "Layout Help" topic in the "Read Me" thread and let us know his "answers" to the questions. It would really help us design a kitchen that's right for him and his family.

Some other questions:

(1) Who does most of the prep and cooking?

(2) Who does most of the cleanup?

(3) Does cleaning up ever take place during prepping/cooking?

I'm confused...if the top counter is only 12', then you have 2' too many in your arrangement. There is no 14' wall - the 14' (top-to-bottom measurement) includes the small wall and hallway leading to the garage.

From the looks of your layout, it's 12' left-to-right and 14' top-to-bottom. While the 12' works out for what you show for the layout, the 14' does not...it measures out only about 13'. So, looking at what you posted, your kitchen is 12'x13'.

By "measuring" the counters in the layout, the top wall of counter is 12' long and the right wall is 8.5' long.

You can make the top wall 14' long (and I recommend you do), but you will need to move that slider.

So, what did I miss?

BTW...the DR dimensions look reversed - at least compared to all the other dimensions in the layout. It looks to be 20'x12'. Actually, if that jog in the wall is the end of the DR, then it's more like a little over 9' top-to-bottom.

The entire width of the space (left-to-right) appears to be around 32',

These are the dimensions as I see them...(and a way to bump the thread for Sboivie!)

Click on the picture to see a larger version (GW no longer lets us post larger pictures)

Glad I came back and checked. I will first answer the questions.
(1) Who does most of the prep and cooking? My wife Stephanie does most of the prep and cooking.

(2) Who does most of the cleanup? Most of the cleanup is done by me and the kids (there are 4 kids, 3 who are old enough to help).

(3) Does cleaning up ever take place during prepping/cooking? Some times, but usually it is after.

buehl, I think you are right about the dimensions, so that does mean my estimating for cabinets is way off. I am actually talking with our architect today so this will be a big help. I think we may need to move the door down a foot or two, so we have a little more cabinet space along that wall.

Now that we have the dimension right, do you have any good suggestions for the layout? I think we like the idea of having the fridge close to the dining room because then it won't be in the main traffic pattern. We do want to make sure we have enough counter space beside the sink and the cooktop, and we also want enough drawer space, but we think we can add drawers to the island s well.

buehl, thanks again for figuring out the sizes of things. This is why I wanted to post things here. You are so helpful. Now that I think I have the dimensions right, here is the layout that I think will work.

Long L (Stretching it to 13'6" which will necessitate moving the door down a bit).
Fridge 36", 15" drawers, DW, Sink, 15" drawers, Corner cabinet
Short L (I don't think we can stretch this much b/c it will make the hallway narrow)
Corner Cabinet 37", 15" Drawer, 30" Range (I can't really see how to fit a wall oven in at this point), 18" Drawer

Island approx 30" x 80" (Probably have to put the MW in the island).

Any thoughts about that layout? Any other suggestions?

Also, just so you know. We are using an architect. He is a friend of mine and is doing this for a significant discount. He is also not a kitchen expert. He is making the changes we suggest, and I realize I should have asked him for some more specifics about the dimensions before I went off and made plans.

The refrigerator will probably take up 37" to 37.5" b/c of airflow needs, etc.

I will work on a layout during the day today...hopefully, I will get it out b/f it's too late!

BTW...your family sounds like ours. I do most of the prepping/cooking (with some help from my son and daughter); my DH and both kids cleanup - my DH has primary cleanup responsibilities.

The only difference is that we often have cleaning up and prepping/cooking going on at the same time.

First Layout - Range, no wall ovens. This gives you the best functional layout.

I have a second w/cooktop + ovens, but it's not quite finished - I will get back to it tonight.

Unfortunately, no time for a detailed analysis right now - I'll add that to this post tonight as well.

One thing - the aisle is a little tight behind the island with seating b/c of the garage entrance making this a major thoroughfare through the kitchen. I'd like to see it 4 to 6 inches deeper, at least.

buehl: That layout you posted looks pretty similar to what we are probably going to do.

We met with our architect last night and decided to stretch the long wall of the L to truly 14 feet, and to move the door by changing from a slider to a regular door. I think the main difference from what you are proposing is that we aren't going to have seating on the island, that way it won't stretch out into the hallway.

We have also shrunk the powder room and are using some of that extra space for more pantry storage.