Ellen1234, what is the size of your kitchen?

We just had a very long thread about this on the decor side.

I think a lot of people are falling out of love with recessed lights, yet we all agree they are often (not always!) functionally superior.

I would try to use as few as possible and I would go with 4". Have you thought about other sources of light, too?

Yes, I will have a couple of pendant lights over the island, a chandelier over the kitchen table, and under cabinet lights. So there are other sources of light. I just really want to get everything "right"!

My kitchen, table area, and family room are all in one long rectangular room, 14' wide (the table area is a bay area with french sliding doors so that is a couple feet wider).

The kitchen area is 14' long (total 10 cans here, including 2 over sink).

The table area is around 13' long (4 cans here).

The family room area is probably 21' long.

Just to add to the mix... Carefully look at the specs for the bulbs you're considering. For instance, the the lumens are the same (575) for 4" and 6" in the HD EcoSmart (Cree) LED line IF the base is GU24. This is not the case for a "regular" base.

In any case, I prefer the look of 4", and 5 of them light my 13'x14' kitchen workspace very nicely (along with other layers of lighting).

Deciding on lighting is daunting, but it seems that you're asking the right questions!

Great to hear this as we are having the same discussion. Our electrician will install whatever we want, but says he generally prefers Halo. I can't remember why-- more options for trim/diffusers?

I had thought we'd need 6" for the kitchen,but be OK with 4" in the hallway, since it's OK there if the light is more "pooled." Interesting to hear the votes for 4" in the kitchen, guess I need to keep this in the Undecided column a bit longer!

fouramblues - I see you have 5 4" cans to light a 13'x14' kitchen. Do you have 8 or 9 foot ceilings? I have a 14'x14' kitchen with 9' ceilings, and my contractor originally wanted to put 5 CANS on each side of my island! He'd marked it with blue tape -- and I'm like - what the heck! There were too many cans -- for some reason he originally had thought he couldn't do 4 on each side (based on the joists). I then suggested 3 on each side, and he said he didn't recommend going less than 4 (he said something about it being awful if you end up with not enough light, and better to have too much than too little) -- well today I still question whether I could have gotten away with just the 6 cans + 2 sink cans (and 4 more cans in the adjacent eating area).

I have 4" Halo LEDs installed in the kitchen: 14 of them in a 12'3" x 26'8" space (plus three pendants and UCL). The Halos were only chosen because they are subsidized by the local utility, bringing the cost way down. The Cree were not. They are rarely, if ever, all the way on. These are wide floods so there are no issues with pooling or shadows.

I have 6" retrofit EcoSmart LEDs in the FR; I would have preferred the 4" but the ceiling is only 8' and the cans were existing. Since they are white with white trims they blend into the ceiling well.

If budget is a concern, the 6 inch will give a wider spread (cone) and thus you will need fewer of them. That's what we went with. But had $$ been no object, I would have done 4 inch and a greater number of them.

I was going to do 6" but then I saw a friend's house this week in the same subdivision. She used 4" and they have some kind of casing so the bulbs are not recessed. It all looks flat with the wall. It looks so much better... Not at all cheese hole looking.

Plus, her lights were kinda bright and sparkley I thought it looked far better than the 6" cans she had in the adjoining LR area, which had the white trim we had been considering.

Steph2000: I'd be very interested to know what kind of lights your friend used that you liked so much. Did they not have the typical white ring around them?

Fouramblues: thank you for the photo! I have a very similar setup as your kitchen as well as the breakfast nook, so it helps give me some perspective.

Ellen and Gooster: it sounds like you have a ton of lighting. Do you have other lighting too or are the recessed your primary source of light?

I was planning on doing the 6" ecosmarts from HD but now will probably do 4", probably still the ecosmarts...unless we can find out more info about Steph2000's friend's fabulous lights:)

Icskaisgir, since you have a similar layout, I'll point out one "don't" and use my kitchen as an example. Don't think only in terms of down lighting. Besides task lighting, up lighting is important. The center of my kitchen ceiling looks rather gloomy, in the pic and in person. Eventually we'll have lighting in the tray to lift the mood, but if we weren't going to have that, I'd have wanted pendants that also cast light up. Just my two cents. :)

Fouramblues - thanks - that makes me feel better! Beautiful kitchen!

lcskaisgir - I will have 3 pendants over the island, once I pick them out. I also do have UCL (LED tape lights). The cans are the main source of task lighting right now -- not sure once I get the pendants. I only use the UCL when I want to enjoy the fact that I have it (I don't really ever *need* to turn it on, but maybe in the winter when it's dark early I will).

My designer recommended the Halo ML56 series, which are available with 5" or 6" trims. The 5" looked much better to me, and uses the same LED module as the 6". We used the Halo ML5609930 LED Module, which features 746 lumens of light output, 90+ CRI, and 3000ðK color temperature ($73 at polar-ray.com was best price I found). We paired those with the 5" remodel housing (Model # H550RICAT; $13 at Home Depot) and 5" White/Haze Trim (Model # 592H; $25 at Home Depot).

The 4" options available did not have nearly as many lumens. We used an ELV dimmer from Lutron and can go from very bright to very dim light. We are pleased with the light quality and appearance.

From a review: "The ML56 LED Recessed Downlighting System is designed for new construction, remodeling or retrofit into both 5-inch and 6-inch standard and shallow recessed housings by Halo, All-Pro or compatible recessed housings. The available color temperatures include 2700 K, 3000 K, 3500 K and 4000 K options with either an 80 CRI (minimum) or 90 CRI (minimum) option depending on the model selected. The series offers two lumen packages, including the 600 series (9.0 watts/80 CRI and 10.2 watts/90 CRI) and 900 series (13.4 watts/80 CRI or 90 CRI). The 600 series offers up to 708 lumens and the 900 series produces up to 1,010 lumens depending on the trim and color temperature selection.

The ML56 light modules feature an inside frost lens that has the familiar look of a typical R/BR-type lamp for visual comfort and aesthetic familiarity, while offering uniform illumination. With this traditional look, the ML56 trim collection offers a complete vocabulary of 26 trims (5-inch and 6-inch), including reflectors and baffles in HaloâÂÂs popular color selection of White, Black, Specular, Haze, Satin Nickel and Tuscan Bronze. In addition, the ML56 trim collection features attractive low-profile directional LED eyeballs, non-conductive âÂÂdead-frontâ shower-rated baffles, and Halo-exclusive wall wash trims with a repositionable kick reflector allowing for fine-tuning adjustment of the wall wash effect."

Here is a link that might be useful: Halo ML56 brochure

Kaysd -We used the Cooper lights in 3000K. It looks like they offer a lot more choices now than about 1.5 years ago - that is great news for the future as I was concerned about the 5 inch cans that I installed.
My DH likes the 3000K look - He says light should be white not yellow...
Thanks for sharing :-)

I don't know all of the technical terms, but we switched out our big florescent light for 5" recessed lights. It's so much better!

I guess I will check into 5" lights as well. Good tip!

And a very good tip about the downlighting, fouramblues. I think I will rule out any lights for over my island that only cast light downward...and I think I had quite a few in the running! I really like a lot of light but don't want my ceiling to look like Swiss cheese!

Lake_girl, I am also replacing a fluorescent light fixture (which has four 4' bulbs in it). It is so ugly, but it does produce a lot of light! I can't wait to be rid of it.

I used 6" in the center of my kitchen, 4" over my sink & pass thru area, and 4" eyeballs to accent my shelving. There is no reason to use all one size recessed fixture. Use what works & don't turn your ceiling into swiss cheese.

Frankly, after 3 years with this kitchen the lights that are turned on most often are the two over the counter that divides the kitchen from my great room. I only use the ones over the sink when I'm cleaning and almost never use the lighting down the center of the kitchen.

The light that is on even after the kitchen is closed is the one over the range. That one light provides enough illumination for almost anything going on in the kitchen.

lcskaisgir: The recessed lighting in the kitchen is arranged in a grid pattern, with the exception of three overhead incandescent pendants over the island for task lighting. The grid starts about 30" off the walls all the way around, with a row down the center.

Since the space is about 325 sq feet, I calculated that I needed about 11,400 lumens of lighting (35 per square foot). Each can was about 625 lumens, so with the three 60W incandescents I have about 11,800 total lumens. I also have LED UCL.

They are all on dimmers, and are rarely turned up to full power. However, I am surprisingly "cranking them" all the way up when the situation warrants.

lcskaisgir - Sorry for the delay. I'm making plans to go over again at night to see my friend's lighting and try to figure out what exactly they are.

I'll try to explain what I saw. There WAS a rim of trim around the lights that was at ceiling height. The outside measurement was 5" across. But, inside that space, the bulbs did not recess. There was no inner hole, if that makes sense. The bulb seemed like it was 2-3" of LED, surrounded by some kind of casing that made the entire thing flush with the ceiling, not just the trim/rim. Does that make sense?

In any case, the result was totally without that cheese holes in the ceiling thing. It looked integrated, clean, seamless, congruent.

The bulbs were more sparkley and bright. They didn't diffuse like the 6" bulbs I have seen. Which might actually be better, but I actually liked the sparkley look.

I just REALLY worry about my small house with my short ceilings having these holes across the ceiling - and I did not like it in my friend's LR area, where she used the more standard 6" cans with the white rimmed trim around it.

I will definitely try to find out more and take pics. It's on my list, bu the week is hammering me...

Steph2000: did the light look more like this than the way the traditional recessed light have the bulbs actually recessed into the ceiling?

You'll still get more lumens per watt from a 4' HO T-5 fluorescent than the LED's. Over 100 lumens per watt!

Light from LED's is cold and sterile. It's extremely focused so they aren't very good at general lighting. They are getting better and will be fully developed in about 10 years. Make sure the lumens rating is for the fixture and not the bulb. See the massive heat sink? That's wasted energy.

Try hidden strip lighting on top of the cabinets, or a wall wash hidden behind a valance. Light the ceiling! A bright ceiling can lift away that "in a cave" feeling! "Daylight" bulbs are available up to 12,000k! no more dark winters.

You'll still get more lumens per watt from a 4' HO T-5 fluorescent than the LED's. Over 100 lumens per watt!

Light from LED's is cold and sterile. It's extremely focused so they aren't very good at general lighting. They are getting better and will be fully developed in about 10 years. Make sure the lumens rating is for the fixture and not the bulb. See the massive heat sink? That's wasted energy.

Try hidden strip lighting on top of the cabinets, or a wall wash hidden behind a valance. Light the ceiling! A bright ceiling can lift away that "in a cave" feeling! "Daylight" bulbs are available up to 12,000k! no more dark winters.

lcskaisgir - it didn't really look like that, as the entire center was not bulb. It WAS flush with the ceiling, though.

I need to get over there and snap pics...and try to figure out what exactly it is, who makes it and how to get some.

She loves them far better than her LR 6" cans. And, so do I. I need to see it at night, but it was just so clean and integrated and nice...

Okay, I have been doing my homework - though I do NOT like what I am finding out!

I went over to my friend's and took some pics - but I can't figure out how to upload them from my phone (I know, I should be able to do that by now).

Basically, she has 4" cans with a narrow trim. Inside the housing/trim, she used a bulb that is apparently a flood or spot light. It has this ceramic-looking surround that actually is enamel-coated steel that fills up the rest of the hole, minimizing the swiss cheese look very effectively.

I took the pics down to the electric supply house today. The guy I am working with down there said that it MIGHT be possible to special order a 4" retrofit LED can that is IC-rated to go next to insulation, but he is unaware of any such option. I'm going to look into it on-line but I am weary of everything I want being complicated!

He showed me an option that looks exactly like the pic you posted on Wed, Oct 2, 13 at 18:05, lcskaisgir. It was really reasonably priced as it was all-in-one (TCP LED12DR5630K). But, seeing it in person, it has a thick rim and a 3/16" lip that bumps it down from the ceiling a bit and I don't know what THAT is about. And...of course it is a 6".

The second option is considerably more expensive (at least double), as it involves separate trim and housing. You can pick the kind of bulb you want to use, though, and whether you want it recessed in the can or more flush with the housing. The trim is thinner and less wide - and one of them replicated the look of my friend's 4" cans (though in 6").

This one is kind of like my friend's, which I kinda liked because it was sparkley and bright:

The other option, which is a BR bulb that the electrician is very partial to, as he likes the way it spreads the light over a large area:

It's nice because at least the bulb isn't recessed. The housing is adjustable so you can sink the light in to the can or not.

He also said 5" really doesn't make sense as it generally goes in a 6" can. I'm not sure why they would do that...

Anyway I hope that is helpful for you. I'm going to go on a wild goose chase to find 4" retrofit LED's that are IC rated... and probably end up pretty much going around full circle...

Omg...thank you for gathering the information! I was all set to buy the 4" LED ecosmart bulbs/trim from home depot which cost $40/ea (plus 4" housing) but I was at Lowe's the other day and saw 4" bulb/trim LED's that were only $30/ea and they are a higher lumen. So I bought one to test it out in one of my existing 6" cans. It is 2700 and I don't notice it to be any less light output than the 6" incandescent bulb that has always been there. So I think I will do these 4" lights throughout the kitchen. My main worry was that downsizing to 4" bulbs would not provide enough light, but that is not the case. I think the brand is ultratech and they fit in any 4" housing.

We're planning on using these for our 4" recessed lights (we are tearing down the old ceiling and putting in a new one):
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Halo-Air-Tite-4-in-Recessed-Housing-H99ICAT/100186076#.UlqGYlAm77k

and then using these:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart-4-in-9-5-Watt-65W-Soft-White-2700K-LED-Downlight-E-ECO4-575L/202899613#.UlqHQFAm77k

Lucky girl! I'm glad your lighting plan is coming together and that the 4" cans are going to work for you, lcskaisgir. You are going to go with 2700? I saw one in the store last night and it really is yellow compared to the 3000.

I'm really sold on 4", but based on the trip yesterday and my initial googling since, it's not looking like I can have them. Unless I rip down the ceiling, which has insulation in it, just as winter is approaching. So not seeing that happen...and I think my partner would kill me, given we are DYI'ing. lol

I'm going to keep researching, though, just in case...

Steph2000, I'm not sure I understand your issue. Why couldn't you use either of these housing units...http://t.homedepot.com/p/Halo-4-in-Recessed-Aluminum-LED-Remodel-T24-Recessed-Housing-H995RICAT/203310666/ or http://t.homedepot.com/p/Halo-4-in-CFL-Insulation-Contact-Air-Tite-Remodel-Housing-H471RICAT/202024777/? They are both 4", IC rated for remodel. About the 2700K...the 4" bulb I tried from Lowe's provided the same amount and color of light that my 6" incandescent 65 watt bulb provided. I had been going back and forth between 2700K and 3000K but since my counters will likely be "coolish", I want to keep the lighting on the warmer side. I was surprised that the 4" bulb provided as much light as the 6" but they are 600 lumens, which is 25 more than the HD Ecosmarts and they're $10 cheaper. Winner winner:)

Andreak100, that ecosmart bulb is one of the ones that is recommended so I'm sure you'll be happy w/it. If you want to save a few bucks (for me it was several bucks since I'm needing 8 of these), try the one at Lowe's for $10 cheaper and 25 more lumens. As for the housing, yours look very reasonably priced. I need something similar as we are also ripping down our ceiling, but mine don't need to be IC rated. Sounds like you're all set...good luck:)

Steph2000, there are a number of options to get housing that is ICAT rated (insulated ceiling airtight). The housings come in either a remodel or a new-construction configuration -- in your case you would probably want a remodel configuration. If you currently have housing that is touching insulation but is not rated for insulated ceilings, then you would need to open up part of the ceiling and replace the housing.

Separate from the housing, you can buy either a unit that integrates the bulb and trim, or you can buy them separately. The Cree CR units are integrated, and because of Home Depot, they are relatively inexpensive.

With LED it's not just lumens, it's also quality of light output - higher CRI values indicate a better ability to faithfully reproduce colors. Also, not all LED lights have the same dimming capability, in case that matters to you. The Cree units have a very good reputation (including the ones branded as EcoSmart).

You might want to look at some threads in the Lighting forum, this is all written up in depth.

This post was edited by calumin on Sun, Oct 13, 13 at 11:06

Huh! So, it isn't a big deal to get a 4" LED retrofit that is IC tested AND will allow me to have bulbs that aren't recessed deep into the can? Well, that is great news if that is the case. I kept asking the guy yesterday "WHY NOT?" People LIKE 4", want to move to LED and don't all live in new houses or ones with multiple stories, especially up here. I was thinking I would have to start a business venture of my own. ;)

I tried googling for them - and kept coming up with products that were either IC-rated or retrofit, but not both.

Oddly, though, when I just searched HD for both of the housing units you provided the item numbers for, the HD website says that they are not stocked in the store and cannot be shipped to This item cannot be shipped to the following state(s): AK,GU,HI,PR,VI. How strange is that??

I have tried to research in the Lighting forum, but have found a lot of it confusing given I'm not very techy and have zero experience with recessed lights. It was helpful to go in to the electrician yesterday and let him show me things... I did post a thread there this morning after my attempts to google were not working.

I saw a 2700 yesterday and it was really yellow compared to the other options. Definitely warmer. I think I've decided to go with something a bit cleaner and brighter. 3000 is probably enough for me, though the electrician was recommending 4000 or something. I told him I'm not into blue light...
I'll keep digging around...

Steph2000, here is a photo of what the 4" light looks like from Lowe's.

Steph2000 - your best bet is to buy the housing online. I used this one:

Liton ICAT LED 4" Retrofit Housing -- GU24 Base"

It is ICAT rated, however it uses a GU24 base (which is a newer connector type than the standard E26 connector you see on most bulbs). In California this was required for me. The corresponding E26 version from Liton is not ICAT rated but there are others that are.

You should probably buy one housing and one light to make sure it fits correctly. This one definitely works with the Cree CR4.

lcskaisgir - we don't HAVE to use the IC rated casings, but I'm opting to since the cost isn't much difference and if it turns out that we change things around in the future with the house, we won't have issues. (we are planning on putting an addition on down the road but don't know all the particulars at this point...my final kitchen is so much different than our original planned kitchen that I can only imagine how much will change for our addition!) Does anyone know of a disadvantage to go with an IC rated housing if you don't have to use it?

The EcoSmart/Cree vs. Utilitech at Lowe's is only $3 difference per in our area, so it's less than $25 difference to go with the "tried and true" that's recommended here in the lighting portion of the forum, but if it was a $10 difference for me like you mentioned, I'd have to look a little more at that difference. I wasn't finding any real info on the CRI or the temperature for the Utilitech either. Since I'm hoping that these bulbs will last 10 years or more, it means that it's only $2.50 per year.

lcskaisgir - we don't HAVE to use the IC rated casings, but I'm opting to since the cost isn't much difference and if it turns out that we change things around in the future with the house, we won't have issues. (we are planning on putting an addition on down the road but don't know all the particulars at this point...my final kitchen is so much different than our original planned kitchen that I can only imagine how much will change for our addition!) Does anyone know of a disadvantage to go with an IC rated housing if you don't have to use it?

The EcoSmart/Cree vs. Utilitech at Lowe's is only $3 difference per in our area, so it's less than $25 difference to go with the "tried and true" that's recommended here in the lighting portion of the forum, but if it was a $10 difference for me like you mentioned, I'd have to look a little more at that difference. I wasn't finding any real info on the CRI or the temperature for the Utilitech either. Since I'm hoping that these bulbs will last 10 years or more, it means that it's only $2.50 per year.

Darn it...I might just have to pick up a EcoSmart today and compare it w/the Utilitech.

andreak100, the Utilitech is 2700K and around 83 CRI if my memory serves me correctly. I know the EcoSmart is 90 CRI so I'm not sure just how much difference that will make...maybe noticeable, maybe not.

I hate that I'm spending so much time/effort on recessed lights! Who would've thunk?!! I have a million other things that I need to be figuring out!!! :)

Thanks. I'm not clear why I am having so much trouble finding these products in Alaska, but my partner is going to talk to the electricians at work and hopefully we can find something.

I think I've decided that while I love the 4" versus the 6", the most important part of this endeavor for me might be avoiding the swiss cheese look by using bulbs and housings that can bump the bulb out so it is not recessed into the can. Best of all worlds would be getting both.

The local supply house is having a big sale this week, so I am highly motivated to wrap this up this week... Plus, I'm with lcskaisgir, this is so not what I want to be doing! LOL

I went with 4" because I think they look better. I only have four, plus one over the sink. The four for main lighting are fine and the only time I use them is when people are over and I want to light up the kitchen. The one over the sink wasn't enough light initially (I have 9-ft. ceilings). I tried everything: incandescent, fluorescent and halogen. All I got was 45 watts and it wasn't enough. I swapped out the one over the sink with an Ecosmart LCD from Home Depot, the entire unit. It gives me about 65 watts and that's what I needed. Davidro, a very knowledgeable, helpful guy on the lighting forum, walked me through the whole thing. Electricity scares me and the idea of taking out the whole unit was stressful, but ended up being easy.

My neighbor only has 5 of them - four along her long run and over to her side door to her yard - and one by her pantry. She does not have a second row over by her island - just 2 pendants. I really don't think she needs them, either, and that it might be major overkill to put them in.

Of course, our kitchens are narrow, especially compared to a lot of GW'ers. But, it has me rethinking the 2 rows idea...

PS -
I have 2 supply houses working with me trying to find a retrofit 4" LED can - that can be adjustable or not. We've spent 3 hours on it this morning. No luck. Apparently, Juno has no retrofit 4" cans, which is part of the problem as the suppliers up here apparently love Juno. Lowe's isn't carrying 4" Halos up here. And, HD is telling me they have options BUT the person I talked to sounded like a kid and my partner has been there twice looking and came back saying they didn't have anything.

It's not looking good for me and 4" cans...

This post was edited by Steph2000 on Mon, Oct 14, 13 at 16:03

I have just skimmed through the responses above, so I might be missing something. Steph2000, I'm not sure if you are having trouble finding a 4" housing or a 4" retrofit LED module to work in the housing.

If it's the LED module, I would think the Cooper/Halo retrofit would meet your needs. It can go just about anywhere (I have them outside and in my shower), but you can't use it in housings in direct contact with spray foam insulation. It comes in 4" but I have it in the 5"/6" with my 10' ceilings. It was recommended by my lighting specialist, and it's great. My brother used the 5"/6" in his remodel (he has 8' ceilings at the most) and it looks good there, too. The LED's are a cleaner look than regular recessed bulbs. And once they are installed and you are living with it, you spend about 0% of your time staring at the ceiling. I'll link it below.

lcskaisgir, you might want to consider these LED's, regardless of your can size.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cooper Halo Retrofit LED

Thanks, Mpagmom. I need it all. As of now, we don't have recessed lights at all. So, we need the whole shebang.

Apparently, the problem is that I can't get all 3 things I want -
1 - 4" LED
2 - retrofit IC rated
3 - adjustable trim or housing so the bulb is relatively flush with the ceiling

It's really driving me crazy...

OK, the one I linked is 4" LED retrofit IC rated (I think), but it doesn't have adjustable trim. The trim is part of the bulb, and it is recessed in a bit.

We switched out our 9 lights in our kitchen with LED retro fit 5" (I think). Do not pay attention to those who say the LED are too "cool." They are improving all the time and ours are not cool. Very nice warm bright light. Make sure they are no more than 3000K and you will be happy with the lights. Ours are dimmable but a never dim them.

Ours are Halo from HD. Very easy to install.

Here is a link that might be useful: Halo retro fit LED recessed lights

Based on the following criteria, what would your can light recommendations be for my tiny kitchen remodel project?
Kitchen floor area (between the cabinets) is 6' wide by 8.5' long, ceiling height is 8'.
I'd like to install two cans on each side of the room, along the length of the room, each one positioned to "paint" light on the walls, rather than have the cans pointed straight down.
My research into LED lighting indicates the Cree Soft White 60 W 2,700 K might be a good choice for us.
My question then is: Should the cans be 4" or 6", or does it make any difference?
I look forward to your suggestions . . .

Hi Everyone!

There are a lot of awesome recessed lighting brands and one of them is the Cooper HALO brand. 4" and 5/6" LED recessed lights are becoming a trend right now. I would recommend recessed lights with adjustable gimbals. You can get them in either narrow or wide flood types for a uniform light beam. Here are the items we offer online. HALO RA/RL and SLD series lighting.

If the retro fits are ic rated. The unit you screw in to the old can houseing they can touch insolation so if you put a bon ic can in but us a ic rated retro unit you should be safe also its not much to make a doarder with 2by 4 or cardoard to hild back insolation just a thought i went from residential to industrial 12 years ago just bought a house so know im trying to learn the difference again but if i have a flush buld with the 4" i shouldnt need a 6" but gettingy head wraped around tgis again its all starting to come back but some peiple at hd and lowes are out to date you should be able to make some ajustment to your insolation and i will check on the non ic can houseing as long as the new unit is ic rated cuz those seem to be inclosed, pancake style so plenty of room for air and heat but i would just put my hamd in the hole and move the insolation around tear a peice out or make a boarder.

I think you typed all this on your phone. It's hard to read what you wrote. :)

Great thread. Peeps who have 4" installed. How far apart did you space your lights please?