No window moving or changing?

Do you really need 42" for your sink cab? And would you consider shifting the sink, so it's still under the window, but not centered? In the 2nd option, you could move the sink to the right end of the window, use a little smaller cabinet and get more room for the stove...also moving it so it is across from the island better. Would you consider a prep sink, especially, and maybe fridge drawers for the island? I usually don't recommend those somewhat pricey, smallish refrigeration units, but others have found them very helpful in situations where the fridge and stove are so separated...and with things like open dishwasher doors between. Malhgold's kitchen isn't done yet, but her plan is very similar to that 2nd option, and will have 2 sinks and the fridge/freezer drawers to help out.

Are you planning to have seating at the island?

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread showing Malhgold's plan

I"m not loving the cooktop placement in either of the first two plans. I know few plans are perfect and we all make our compromises. What I like about the last plan is the separation of the cooktop from the eating area. I also like the access to the frig without entering the work zone. But, I'm wondering how much function such a large island will give you with it's current placement. Do you bake alot? Then perhaps... kids who like to help out or have school projects?

Can you consider window changes? Move plumbing for the sink? I don't know how extensive you want this to be.

I like C the best. With an island that large you might consider moving the cooktop on to one end of it so you are involved in the conversation while you are cooking and prepping.

I'm not a big island fan, but I think the island versions look much nicer to work in than the U. This is a kitchen where the island really works. As to which to do, I think I'd rather live in version B, but the thing I was thinking about when I saw it was that people would be constantly crossing the work zone to get to the fridge.

C solves that, but having the fridge and oven stacks cuts off the whole flow of the counter, so it's less graceful. I think that a simple hood next to the window, especially with cabinetry above (do you have uppers?) wouldn't compete for the eye as much.

But I don't think that the aesthetic issues of either are a big deal. You're keeping your window, and the sink under it, so you're seeing the sink from the DR. And the view out the window. That's the both minus and plus and the same in both.

I still like B better just because I like it, but I think C is probably the best plan for function.

I'm so glad Rhome thinks about these things so differently than I. Nothing that she mentioned even seems an issue to me. :) I frankly don't think you need a secondary sink, or fridge, though the latter would handle some of the traffic problems of B. The problem is, while you could put fridge drawers in the island facing the eating area, for example, for beverages, butter, ketchup, milk, pickles, etc., you'd have to make sure that the right things were there, always. I think beverage/snack fridges are great for families with a lot of chilled beverage drinking and snacking going on, but it's putting out lunch that concerns me more. I might be the weird one. I got the fridge drawers mostly for produce and also some things I only use at the stove or prep area like opened wine, butter and eggs, and turned the big fridge to open toward the eating area and dining room, rather than the work area of the kitchen, for all the stuff I mentioned above.

I still like B better. Maybe put a velvet rope when you're working to divert fridge traffic around the other side of the island? Unless you're a cuddly family who use the opportunity of strays walking through the work zone to get some hugs in. :)

I like B the best but would like to swap the sink and stove places.
cooked food would be closer to the DR and sink not as close (to see while eating). and there wouldn't be a hood in the view between the sink and eating area.
the fridge is still on the outside area to be usable w/o going into cooking space.

is the island to be a 'sit up to' one?

I like Plan C best, especially the location of the cooktop. In Plan C, the cooktop is protected and out of the way of casual kitchen traffic.

General... I'm not sure what's going on in the alcove at the bottom, but if that's a pantry, I would consider either making the entire alcove the pantry space or at least expand it by at least a foot. That would still give you 3' of counter next to it. Is it a coffee center?
Does the oven stack contain a MW + Wall Oven or does it contain double ovens? If double ovens, where do you plan to put the MW? You could easily house a MW Drawer on the island.
Can the window be moved?
I'm glad to see that you're taking advantage of the corner storage...super/lazy susans hold a lot and everything is easily accessed as it's always right in front! And, with today's susans, you no longer have the problem of items falling off the shelves since the wall of the susan very, very closely follows the contour of the shelves so there's no room for anything to fall off.
Everyone keeps talking about facing company while cooking...how much time do you actually spend standing at the cooktop? [Here it comes!] Studies show that time spent in the kitchen is broken down as follows:

• • 70% of your time is spent prepping

• 20% is spent cleaning up

• 10% is spent cooking

So, which task does it make sense to be doing w/a view toward the table/FR or visitors? Prepping. That means space near a water source that's not blocked by a DW (or that has a DW in the path b/w it and the sink). Your island will satisfy that...in Plans B & C. In Plan A, the cooktop takes up too much room and prepping will be to the wall (if you get the DW out of the way). Generally, a single-level island or peninsula is the most useful. It gives you a wonderful expanse of countertop to work on...for crafts, school/science projects, baking, gift wrapping, food for a buffet, etc.

Plan A... Peninsula seating is pretty close to the table seating...do you really need seating there? Is there room? You should have at least 60" b/w the table edge & the edge of the deepest part of the peninsula to fit seats in both places (66" to 72" would be even better).
If you must have a cooktop in an island or peninsula, be sure to have at least 24" on each side of it & behind it.
Consider moving the cooktop "up" so it's in front of the deepest part of the overhang and be sure that overhang is at least 24" deep. This not only helps protect those seated behind the cooktop, but it also offers more protection for passersbys when they walk past the side of the cooktop. Steam/smoke/grease splatter/drift and w/o an adequate island hood those passersbys are at-risk. It actually looks like you don't plan any seating on the deepest part of the overhang...if that's the case, it's an even better reason to move the cooktop!
If you have children, discourage them from doing their homework on the peninsula. It's too...

Wow - thank you all for your comments! I'll try to address each of the questions/issues raised:

- Yes, we do plan on having seating on the island. There is 48" behind it for the walkway.
- We would definitely prefer to not move the window.
- Although they definitely have their benefits, we won't be putting a prep sink in the island. There is no plumbing there and putting one in would mean having to tear down the ceiling in the finished basement. Since it is a sheetrocked ceiling, not suspended, this is more of a headache than we want.
- As for the refrigerator location (plans A and B), given that we have the peninsula layout now, the traffic pattern is pretty well set that everyone walks straight along the walkway to access it. Since this placement and route allows the easiest access for people in the family room or coming in from the side/back yard, I don't think most people are going to change their habits to start walking through the work area.
- As for the size of the island, we do plan on having seating (homework, eating, etc.). Also, I do a lot of baking and cake decorating - so the space will definitely be used.
- Although the sink is visible from the DR, we think the island will provide an attractive "barrier" to help with that.
- The wall ovens will be a MW/convection and regular oven.
- The pantry area is a full-sized pantry closet and a 56" space that currently has two bases and uppers. We were considering replacing cabinets with a piece of furniture, but with all the design options available with cabinet lines, we are going with some kind of "hutch" look with glass fronts, etc. We use this area for the phone, placemats, barware. There is not water nearby, so we don't use it as a coffee station.
- We thought about using that corner for something like the cooktop, but were concerned about how much it would have to cut into the area. Due to the issues I already discussed, I like D-2b the most - and it looks like that there is plenty of aisle space, even with putting the 36" cooktop on an angle. The only other concern is that we want to go with drawers under the cooktop - so not sure how this will work with base cabinets next to them - can't access adjacent cabinets if anyone has a drawer open and vice versa.
- As for Plan B, we do have space to increase the size of the cabinet to the left of the cooktop. If we went with a simple enclosed hood (to match cabinets), do you have any concerns about the whole competing focal point issue? One KD mentioned that, so now it is on our minds.

Thank you again, everyone, for your helpful ideas!

Whether the cooktop in the island is a good idea or not depends on you, not studies done mainly by watching army and professional cooks.

I spend a lot of time at the range and prepping right beside the range. I have enjoyed turning the range so I face people and I don't think I would go back against a wall by choice. However, I have that exact raised bar behind the range and DON'T DO THAT! People seated at the bar forget that a range is back there - in our case, dh got interested in what was in the paper and it ignited. This happened where the bar was 20" deep!

Overall, I like "C" with "B" a close second...but...

I might move the oven to the separate area with the (pantry-closet-bsmt stairs?).

Would try to go ref, DISHES, cleanup, food on the remaining outer "L" and put the cooktop in the island.

The ref is a kind of philosophical quandary, its best positioned close to the table space and family room but its got a few issues (how do doors open?, available aisle when door open, will door hit seated diner?), the most important being it visually cuts off the cleanup person from the rest of the family life. To some people, that might be a benefit because it cuts off the view of dirty dishes. When its on the other end of the "L", its most convenient to the ?formal dining room?, but miles away for the "get a beer" from the family room (?or deck) run. It looks like it would be mighty tempting to short cut through the cooks area. That indented couple of cabinets is tempting for an inexpensive drinks ref to get rid of the long commute if you decide to put the ref on the other end of the "L".

Would try some perspective drawings with a slightly smaller island (39" x 108-120") with a bit more walk by area.

Thanks, bmorepanic. At one point, we considered putting the wall ovens where the pantry closet is - but the main plumbing from the full bath directly above on 2nd floor runs through that closet from basement - so there were all kinds of issues with space/clearance, etc. We don't want to put them where the base/uppers are next to the closet because they are then way out of the 'real' kitchen area.

I can see the points people raise about the location of the ref in Plans A and B, D2-a&b. That is where it is now and - while it might not be the ideal choice if starting from scratch - we are all used to having to walk that far from the family room and/or the EIK to access it. Also, we do kind of like the proximity to the outside entrance as it makes for easy drink access for dirty, muddy people. So, the walking distance is not a major factor to us. We are much more concerned about the location of the cooktop.

We are trying to keep the cooktop off the island - we have some safety concerns and also would like to keep that space open for buffets, etc.

UGH - there is so much to think about!!

Your "B" is very, very similar to my layout, except I have a range instead of separate ovens. Here's my layout, and a pic is at the bottom...

I do 95% of my prep work at the island, and without the prep sink, it would be a daily headache (as opposed to the now long-forgotten added cost and inconvenience of getting it installed). Without the prep sink, my island would be rendered somewhat useless for the kinds of things I use it for most. I also love that it keeps hand-washers out of my main work aisle.

So, I prefer Plan B, but with a prep sink. Without the prep sink, I would prefer Plan C. That plan gives you more space for prep in the corner, and makes the fridge more accessible to the table area.

given that we have the peninsula layout now, the traffic pattern is pretty well set that everyone walks straight along the walkway to access it. Since this placement and route allows the easiest access for people in the family room or coming in from the side/back yard, I don't think most people are going to change their habits to start walking through the work area.

Oh, yes, they will!!! Give 'em a week.

But I still like plan B better. It just looks right, even with the fridge in the "wrong" place. We do kind of like the proximity to the outside entrance as it makes for easy drink access for dirty, muddy people tells me it's not all that wrong anyway.

Forget the silly KD. It's not a Lacanche range. Especially with the integrated hood you mentioned, the cooktop won't be a focal point. You weren't planing on Igloo chickens, were you? If you keep the backsplash simple to direct the eye to the window, it won't compete. If you really want chickens (or whatever), then it'll compete, and so what? People will have two things to look at, rather than one. I agree about not being distracted from the window by a blingy hood, but art's fine!

Your original plan B is open, has good work flow, plenty of seating and storage, and general grace. It's not cluttered up with extra stuff, and has that nice, clean island for projects and service. And I don't even like islands! What I like especially about this one is that it leaves you a clear corridor from the door on the right through to the opposite end where the FR is. There's enough room for people to get by when folks are seated at the island, but not enough to be a waste of space.

I like it. :)

Thank you holligator and plllog for your encouraging comments!

One thing we are now trying to figure out is whether or not to put a prep sink in the island. DH said he would do it if I wanted. It seems like something most posters feel strongly about - haven't read a post from anyone ever regretting the decision. Of course, then the next question is, where on the island....

My DH really likes buehl's idea of putting the cooktop in the corner (D-2b). We can then highlight the hood a little more, rather than downplay it if it's next to the window. Our concerns (aren't there always concerns?!?) are the amount of useable space you lose by going angled and that we would be left with only 2-3 upper cabinets - since we can't have any to the right of the sink and just one to the left of the ref.

I cannot believe how quickly time flies reading posts and looking at pictures - I have spent the whole weekend doing nothing but that!!

Problems with the angled range: you're not just with your back to one area but all of them, and you're not just facing a wall but a corner. And to get enough butt separation from the sink, and keep the sink in the window, you'd have to move the window.

Re prep sink: Your plan shows a large, two bowl sink. That's all you need. If you want a prep sink in the island, go for it!! But usually those are put in to solve problems that you don't have. The closest thing to a "problem" is that the sink isn't handy to the eating area. I've had a small sink in the eating area, and it's handy because it (as well as toaster and coffee pot) can be reached by the host sitting there. The paper towels and trash basket underneath are more useful, however.

Think about how you work and how your family lives. Think about where you want water and what it will do for you. If it'll enhance your lives, do it! But don't do it just because it's one of those things everyone has.

Your plan shows a large, two bowl sink. That's all you need.

We've all done with less, and all have more than 'need,' but I really sink a prep sink in that plan will pay for itself in good use, and better traffic movement...Like Holligator described.

As far as placement...You could center it in the island for good workspaces to each side of it...Or if you want it more accessible to others outside of the cooking area or for filling water pitchers for the table, etc., you could put it toward the table end, even on that corner. I would just encourage you to not center it in front of the stove, but place it to the side or at least a bit offset, like Holligator's, so you have a place to prep that's in front of the range...so it's simple to grab chopped items and do a simple turn to the stove.

Count me in the Plan-B camp. Actually, I will endorse almost all of plllog's points here and add a few more.

Re: Plan - B
(1) "Competing focal points"? Pish-tosh. You don't have floor to ceiling windows behind the sink for it to be that magnificent a view that you dare not compete with it - and I'm a HUGE window fan, believe me. Unless you have Trevi fountain right outside your window, when people focus beyond the room they'll see a lovely outside, when people focus in the room, they'll look at your interesting backsplash or hood or cool cabinetry or whatever.

(2) In addition to your feeling of function, I like the fridge and tall oven stack where they are in this plan. More so than in Plan C. I also like the sink and stove proximity.

(3) I like the big island. IMO, you don't need to clutter it with a prep sink. In a much larger kitchen than yours, indeed it may be a necessity, but not here. Moreover, you say you want to do baking and cake-decorating. You don't need a sink for either and I like the big vast island here for that. I have an 8foot extra deep counter that I have in my galley kitchen which is across from the sink much as you have your island/sink-cab run. It is GREAT. I love having the expansive uncluttered counter that you don't have to negotiate around and it does serve as my primary counter for oven preparation - of course, I also have my oven on that wall. At 42" between sink and stove and beyond the sink, you've got ample prep room there for sink-based preparation, too.

(4) This is to counter someone's opinion of the evils of DW between sink and stove. It is a popular kitchen design opinion that this is verboten - this universal law stems from needs assessed from restaurant kitchen design. Personally, I never bought it when I was planning my kitchen as large scale DW access seldom happens concurrently with food prep or cooking in residential use, in my experience. I can see that in a restaurant, cooking and cleanup are constantly on. But not in a house. I have your sink-cooktop configuration with a 36" cabinet rather than your 18" cab between stove and DW and I can tell you that in the 4 years since my kitchen has been done, the DW location has NEVER been any cause for congestion or accident!

Plan-C. This is not a bad plan. HOWEVER, I do not like the fridge/oven locations between the kitchen and the FR that you seem to want very much to be able to integrate with. Here's why:
Based on our pre-remodel kitchen, having a behemoth like a fridge between areas separates them greatly. And having the fridge between windows casts shadows something fierce. Even with the windows, one side or the other of that overall space will look remote. We had a mud-room area beyond the fridge basically where your FR is in your plan-C. The mud-room had two windows on two walls AND two lights in it and yet, from the kitchen, it always looked dark and dingy sitting as it did behind the fridge. It...

I think I was the one who liked Plan B, but mentioned the dw between stove and sink could be a problem. It was based on my personal experience and preference (not any previous rule or guideline), since in our house the dishwashers are almost always open while I'm cooking. I know some people are alone in the kitchen or don't touch the dw during a cooking time, but while I cook, the kids get started on clean-up and/or clear the dishwashers to set the table. Just depends on how your family operates, since I think this situation could be a possibility in any household, not just in one the size of mine.

Truthfully, though, that issue wasn't a big enough one for me to dislike this plan, as the aisles are roomy enough to make it work. I could just imagine for myself, turning too quickly, or trying to get to the sink without looking or judging well enough and taking off a section of shin on the corner of the open dw door. :-)

Give 'em a week to change their walking pattern? Boy, I was thinking two hours!

The dishwasher thing affects rhome a lot because of the eight kids! It would not affect me. Dishes are done after mealtimes.

The real benefit to "B" is having two completely separate areas on the island that could be shared by two cooks. The sink is in a good position to be shared. The ovens can be up at a good height.

There is also something to be said for the efficiency of "take stuff out of ref and wash it in sink and then cut it right beside the cooktop and plop it in pot."

It only takes one to have a dw door open. ;-)

If I had 1 or 2 kids instead of 8, I still would have them clearing dishwashers and setting the table while I cook dinner ...and since Catmom has 'homework-doers' (so obviously has kids at home), I thought she might have the same situation.

You're right that it's just what you're used to. The only workspace where I grew up was on top of the DW, so having the DW open during prep is impossible. It's right behind the stove, so is never open during cooking. Things are put in during clean-as-you-work and the door is closed.

In every kitchen I've had for the last 20 years I could have left the DW open but I'm used to the door being shut. Shut the fridge, shut the cupboards, shut the drawers (and pat pat pat the ones that the guys leave almost shut), and shut the DW.

Rhome makes a good point, and it's an important consideration, but it really is possible to teach kids to load the DW without leaving it open. I'm proof :)

Two kids...DW open a lot during prepping & cooking. The DW in my prep & cooking zones would never work...I'd constantly have bruised shins & calves!

If there's no other choice, fine, but when there is a choice...fix it!

B'more that occured to me too! Rhome's home for 10 *is* a restaurant ;-). Well, at least it is a lot more highly trafficked than any place I've seen, anyhow. I don't get DW's sitting open at any time other than cleanup (after mealtimes) or during emptying and I don't understand so much division of labour especially at those times.

To be sure, DWs can be in awkward places. Amongst those are DWs in or near a corner where it makes access to the putting away places awkward! (such as Plan-C might have). When the DW is awkwardly placed relative to the natural home of dishes that just got washed, then it is a chore to process. In my current kitchen, tableware (plates, bowls) and preparation stuff goes in the 36" drawers right next to the DW and are a cinch to put away. Pots and pans go in the drawer just beyond and take two steps to restore. Storage stuff like tupperware and cutting boards go in the cabinet right across from the DW and are yet more efficient access. It is only the glasses and cups that take a bit more effort because there are several of them and are a whole two cabinets from the DW ;-).

It takes no time to unload and, frankly, we don't start preparation for the 3 minutes we're unloading the DW if it wasn't done earlier!

But as b'more or plllog or rhome or someone said, none of these arguments are germane if they don't apply to your style of life. I brought up the DW issue because this is a popular ad hominem and I wanted to lob into the equation that this is a good one to stop and reflect over if it would apply to you. There are others where the conventional wisdom is spot on - fridges and their doors next to walls for one! - and it is perfectly correct to reflexively accept the CW.

I suspect the DW being open issue may also have to do with when things get done. In our home of two work-outside-the-home parents, the DW is unloaded while dinner is being made and then loaded up w/the breakfast dishes & after-school snack dishes. After dinner, if it's not too late & homework is done, the DW is loaded & run.

Sometimes, the dishes don't get done until the next day, again, while dinner is being made. So the dishes are loaded, DW run, DW unloaded. This usually happens several times a week...if the kids have too much homework (hah! when don't they nowadays!) and DH & I can't get to them that evening.

Another point I want to make is that just b/c it works for you when it's in the path, doesn't mean it should be put there. Ideally, dish storage & DW should be out of the prep & cooking zones... Yes, sometimes compromises have to be made. But, if the only reason you're putting the DW in the prep & cooking zone is b/c of dish storage location...then I would still think long & hard about it. If you don't think you'll mind the bruised shins/calves and would rather have the dish storage close by than take an extra couple of steps, then fine...you've decided it w/all the information and know the pros/cons. However, if no one points it out, then you won't be making an informed decision b/c no one mentioned it to you.

One other point...dish storage can be located in two places...close to the DW or close to the point-of-use (DR/table area). If they're next to each other than great! Perfect! However, usually they're not. So, now, where do you store them? Where you'll be going back & forth several times a day (meals, snacks) or where you'll need them to be once a day when you unload the DW? Each person needs to decide that for themselves as well (and it should be pointed it out).

So, if you have two reasons not to put the DW in the prep zone (get dishes closer to the table/DR & eliminate the bottleneck) vs one reason to put it in the prep zone (closer to dishes), then it seems to me the former would win. But, again, YMMV.

If you don't think you'll mind the bruised shins/calves
As I said above, ad hominem.
I don't think you're getting it buehl - to people who don't multiplex tasking the way you and rhome need to, there are no bruised shins and calves. It's not that we're choosing to accept bruises in exchange for something else as you want to make it out to be - there just isn't this danger at all.

More than that, I think I see why you have to multiplex so much. If you haven't seen the merit of having the DW close to dish storage and don't have this layout, then you *will* put off unloading the DW AND it becomes much more of a tedium.
Anecdotally, I'll also say that pre-remodel, when our DW was relatively more remote from the storage, it wouldn't get unloaded until it *had* to ie. for the next meal. And then, as often as not, it seemed enough of a chore to have to put away all the dishes that DH and I would go out to eat. Seriously. We'd eat out because we didn't want to face the chore of unloading the DW ;-).
Now that the DW sits close to the dishes, it is a cinch to unload and that at least, is never the excuse if we decide to eat out.
Oh, two full-time, out-of-the-house jobs here, too.

Lastly, as bmore pointed out earlier, the appeal of Plan-B is not that the DW can "bruise your shins and calves" but that it affords two or three very good preparation areas with excellent access from fridge to sink to stove.

I'm really not trying to pile on - but I think dishwasher choices are interesting. I guess I am that strange!

In our home for 2, the dishwasher is run after dinner and emptied first thing in the morning. Going to bed with a clean kitchen is a hold-over from living in very urban areas where you wouldn't dream of leaving food or dirty dishes out to attract things with many legs or tails. And I really like not having to deal with a dirty kitchen first thing in the morning.

I do put stuff in the dw all day long - we clear up after every meal. During prep, I may clear stuff into the dw, but it only takes a few moments. Contention over the dw space is so rare, I can't remember it happening. Part of it may be that I have a very wide aisle in front of dw - 5 feet.

No, I get it. I was just trying to explain why I think it's important to at least bring it up... Actually, our dishes are stored just above the DW w/most other things within a step or two as well. Only flatware & glasses are not.

I just remember in our old kitchen how bad it was. We had a small amount of counter & floor space ("L") in the working part of the kitchen and even though pots/pans, storage containers, dishes, glasses, & flatware were literally "right there"...no steps needed, it was still an issue when I needed to get dinner ready. And yes, I had a lot of bruised shins (not so much calves since I didn't step back into it). It was one of the driving forces of our remodel.

So, while it isn't important to you & others, and I understand that, we don't generally know that about others until they say so. I think it's part of what we do to point out the possible issues...then, if they say "no problem", fine...but at least they've thought about it and won't later say "I wish someone had warned me..."

Bmorepanic...food does get put away & the dishes are rinsed or left to soak if left in the sink. Part of it is that we're trying to get the kids to do more around the house so if it means they sit in the sink overnight b/c of a heavy load of homework, so be it.

ROTFL!!! I think it's a hoot that we're squabbling over where Catmom puts her dishwasher, and she hasn't even said it was a problem!

The warnings from those who have it standing open during prep and cooking are well taken, but I don't think we need to worry about future owners. A DW is the easiest appliance to move, and the only alternative is in the corner which for some people is the thing to be avoided more. They'll choose whatever works better for them.

Checking in at lunch - can't believe all the activity that went on while I was sleeping!! Thank you all, again, for your helpful comments.

The DW is another thing I guess I never really thought much about - didn't have a choice as to where it is now - so just learned to live with it between the sink and range. While we don't have kids yet (if all goes well, that will change this coming spring!), they are something to consider for our entire layout.

My DH worked on the angled cooktop plans last night and, aside from the location of the prep sink and I think one other cabinet, it's buehl's D-2b.

We are still not sure of a bunch of things. One concern is the lost upper cabinet space going with the angle. Also, we feel that the prep sink should be closer to the ref, but we like the ref where it is. We also want to keep the whole DR side of the island free for seating, serving, etc, so putting it on the DR corner right accross from the ref is out. And, of course, we're still debating how much we'll use it...

I don't know. Plan B is probably still my favorite. I think the angled cooktop and hood could look cool. But, like mindstorm pointed out, I am not sure that I like the big oven or ref on the end of the sink run - would rather leave this more visually open to the EIK and FR.