I think that a factor in the triangle analysis is whether you are a one-item-at-a-time fetcher or if by habit you gang your hauling tasks within the triangle/zones. That would affect how tolerant you would be of a long-side triangle. Studies show that general movements within the home add to the caloric burn that keeps us healthy. I'm trying very hard not to make ease so important to me that I become a bore and a blob. I must have stool seating at the chopping stations and rubber-heeled shoes when I work, no matter how much walking I do in a kitchen. Keeping the stools out of the other person's triangle is important. We do a lot of commuting inside our lakeshore house. Never mind the logic. We were restricted when planning the kitchen because of shoreland building code rules and investment in a former addition which put living room and bedrooms on the lake side. We decided to leave the kitchen on the street side of the house. A large deck and a patio are on the lake side, but will continue to require a commute to the kitchen. A formal dining room featuring fireplace and deck door is next to the kitchen. Because we eat in the dining room or on the deck or patio, I had to put the refrigerator on the path to them. The rest of the kitchen triangles sides are inside the newly expanded kitchen space. I have planned 'plunk spaces' where things wait to be toted to another place. Bags of groceries arriving from garage, dishes headed out for usage or back for cleaning, condiments for the current meal, etc. Trays are useful sometimes but a bother other times. We think through what we need before we launch toward a destination. Because one triangle has a long tote to and from the refrig, I will have to think hard when I'm in front of the refrig with the door open. A pull-out breadboard will lie just to the side of it so that there is plenty of plunk space coming and going from the refrig. Even now in my little kitchen, it's not unusual for such a surface to have most of the salad makings, the dressing, and the cheese plunked on it before I begin to make the salad, so I'm acclimated to this procedure. We sure try to keep the refrig door closed as much as practicable. As I indicated previously on one of the forum topics, the new design was driven by a mistake--the technical designer we hired for this sweat equity project claimed that I could not vent my stove from the position I had chosen, so the stove was moved and then the vent was still in wrong place and now vent is replumbed so it exits from the roof instead of the soffits. The tail that wagged the dog. Anyway, his design forced us to rethink lots of things we had originally planned and now I think I will enjoy this kitchen a lot because we put so much thinking into it. At some point in the planning, we had a Better Homes Kitchen Mag which ran a great article with diagrams of the standard kitchen layouts and text that indicated number of cooks. The G-shaped kitchen was listed as a two-cook kitchen but needed a lot of space to prevent being cramped and being trapped in the space. That's what we ended up with. The diagram showed two work triangles that did not intersect but that shared the stove and the refrig on two ends with outrigger angles at each of two sinks. Thinking has been very difficult but very rewarding. I'm trying hard to gang together "same-usage so same storage space" for food and utensils. The paring knives need to be by the chopping space but the ice cream scoops don't. The beverage-related stuff--wine openers, tea balls, beer opener, tea containers--don't need to be positioned near the stove in a single utensil area; now we're putting coffee pot and microwave and auxiliary induction burner in the upper arm of the G where beverage activities will not interrupt the cook and where they will most easily facilitate drinking beverages elsewhere in the house. We can use the area as a temporary bar/beverage station when we entertain guests also, and they won't need to enter deeper into the cooking arena. My relatives are diehard Swedes who swill coffee deep into the night; my husband comes from a cohort of beer drinkers who savor nuances from microbrews. So...beverages will now be dissociated from the cooking area! Beer drinkers will be routed back outside the immediate kitchen as soon as they have found their brew and coffee drinkers can creep in and out at will. The refrig is at the start of the G. with plunk space next to it on left. Everyday dishes and silverware will be in uppercupboard next to it. Toast buttering and sandwich making will now be there also, next to refrig on the right top side of the G opposite the stove on the bottom of the G. Sink for cleanup and dishwasher are on the long side of the G with lots of windows. Baking area and secondary chopping are left of the sink near lower corner of G. Stove at bottom of G with butcher block plunk space either side of it and canned goods and other food storage above on either side of the vent hood. Pots and pans below. Peninsula on the short arm of the G will be launching/receiving space for prepared food and dishes plus will allow casual seating outside the kitchen proper and will house the prep sink and chopping pullout board and "double trash" unit on the inside of the short arm of the G. In our current tiny kitchen, we put utensils of all sorts in one place and all fabric items in another, etc. Often storage was dictated more by depth of shelf or drawer than by relationship to other items on same shelf or in same drawer. The weirdest drawer is the one with batteries, used plastic bags, permanent markers, the least used disks for a chopping appliance, rolling pin, and writing instruments; most likely this collection evolved because all items are shallow. Now am hoping to dissociate stored items so that the groupings will cut down commutes. Flour and sugar and rolling pin and sifter and pie pans will be grouped. If necessary, I plan to make auxiliary containers for things that we use redundantly--bring back the sugar bowl from deep storage, for example, and put it in the beverage area. I am an empty nester. I don't think I would have a use for additional refrigerator drawers even if I had a large family living nearby me. I don't think I would have wanted the when the kids were growing up either. Too many decisions--does this item go in that one or in this one? Where did I put that avocado? A refrig. just for butter and jelly and sandwich meat is silly, an example of American arrogance. I live in Minnesota so I do use the garage for cold storage during the winter--beverages especially, but also for overflow of leftover containers and baked goods, etc. at Thanksgiving and Christmas. In summer, the garage is usually cool enough to begin the refrigeration process for some things. I also have the former well pit room in the basement which is great for wine, cold storage of squash, etc. My children live in Alaska and their visits are in weeks-long spurts. I am not too proud to go buy a bag of ice and use a portable cooler for short-term spare refrigeration space. I don't want to own oversized appliances just because I have a party or houseguests once in a while. Very large cook gear like the blancher, the dehydrator, the auxiliary turkey baker as well as vacuum cleaner and brooms, potatoes and onions, cleaning supplies, and the dog food will be in a new closet in the former kitchen-- a hall behind the stools of the peninsula arm of the G. I still need to procure or design a decent-sized bookshelf for cookbooks, which will have to wait until serendipity renders me the right item. This will probably also be placed on the kitchen hall. I like to give dinner parties and this kitchen is set up for that. I want to retain the restaurant-like ambiance of the separate dining room but will now be able to do a better job of herding guests out of the cooking area instead of simply demanding: "You may stand there or there or leave." My guests are guests, not choppers or waiters, although perhaps I will change this when the multi-station G becomes familiar enough for me to allow others besides the DH and my children into it. The room will allow as many as 6 cooks and assistants, I think, but the sacred triangles will not be honored very much at that time. I demanded that the prep sink be large enough to hold a pumpkin. It's positioned to serve for general hand-washing but also for washing down garden produce and for filling the dog water pail so I bought a one-bin Kohler regular sink. The cleanup sink is a two-bin Kohler sink on the opposite side. Faucets have a high arc and a separate sprayer. I think I would have liked a pot filler to shorten the number of steps between sinks and stove, but the sweat equity contractor said NO more plumbing, please. I talk to the cupboard man today here at our place and we might come to an agreement. He likes our plan and his marketing guy is already hoping to get some photos when we're done. But we're not done sweating yet. Florantha

I always thought of zones as a collection of smaller triangles, too (maybe more of an open pyramid of sorts, with sides being shared by the different triangles). I think my basic triangle is still fridge-sink-stove, but *prep sink* now instead of one main sink that has to be available to everything and everyone. In a one-person and/or small kitchen where one sink is the only feasible option, I think there still has to be a 'triangle' for efficiency's sake, but, in that case, with little zones inside, if at all possible. I like a place-for-everything, and a place-to-do-everything. I don't want to bake where I do my veggie prep or deal with dirty dishes. (There grows my carbon footprint, I suppose!) I've had medium galley and smallish L with island kitchens...Both had distinct triangles, but also, I think, had zones along each side of the triangle. --I think triangles and zones can co-exist. As one of the people who commented on the article, there are too many variables to make a general rule, and that, I suppose, was the problem with adherence to the old, measured triangle guidelines.

The 18" pullout is fine (1st picture), in fact I do sometimes recommend 18" pullout pantry cabinets. (And sometimes 12" wide utility pullouts.) You can see everything because (1) all shelves pull out at the same time and (2) you can look at one side and then the other to see what's on the shelves. The second picture, though, does not appear to have 24" deep shelves, that's why it works. 12-inch deep shelves for this type of storage seems to be the "sweet spot" for pantries. However, with 12" deep stationary (but adjustable) shelves, you wouldn't have to waste space with pull out hardware & pullout shelf sides/fronts/backs b/c you can see everything at one glance, nothing can "hide", and you don't need to "pull" the shelf to access the items - even on the bottom shelves. It's also why "built in" pantries are usually less expensive (sometimes far less) than 24" deep pantry cabinets. Plus, if you have a "built-in" pantry, you can use the entire space - floor to ceiling! No accommodating a toekick, cabinet top, or space b/w the top of the cabinet & ceiling.

@mama goose_gw zn6OH Thank you for your thoughtful feedback. I was definitely considering the dishwasher swap, with dishes in drawers instead of upper cabinets. There's two reasons I'm hesitant. 1) I have never been a big fan of dishes in drawers. Getting dishes is a frequent activity, so having to bend down each time seems like it could get painful on the back. I could be totally wrong on this. 2) Our typical routine for weeknight dinner involves brining clean plates to the stove for loading and then taking to the island to eat. Setting the table for more "formal" dinners usually involves using the "good" dishes, which are stored elsewhere anyways. (The plan doesn't show it, but there are uppers on either side of stove and dishes are planned to be on the left.) Trash drawers are going to go under both main and prep sink. There is definitely room to make the island wider than the standard 4 feet and hence move it a little closer to stove. My concern there is that it would require a seam in the counter material (quartzite). Maybe a skilled installer could make that almost disappear. I'm just wondering how much that would bother me. I should have provided more context on the bank of floor-to-ceiling cabinets. The design is below. The middle section is indented with a counter ledge and has the microwave and coffee/breakfast stations behind the appliance garages. This is why the fridge can move to one of the two ends, but not the middle. If I'm adding the island prep sink, then I'm actually happy with the fridge at the end because it means I can just pivot to pull things from fridge and put on island. I had originally wanted to keep the island completely appliance free, but now realize the prep sink there is a must given the rest of the configuration.