I prefer some counter on at least one side of the fridge. The main thing I would change would be to move the cooktop around towards the fridge and get it out of the corner. Take out the wall behind it and be able to look into the formal dining room while cooking instead of being in a corner. I would also do some split level upper cabinets to the kitchen. In the end whatever you prefer is what is best. Why the split level island top? Kenneth

hi erika,
just a quick question... could you go with fewer upper cabinets? seems a little top heavy to me, but perhaps you need all the storage. if not, it might make it all seem more open and roomy without so many uppers.

Thanks for your response, Kenneth. My KD loves to put stoves in the corner, not sure why. However, if I move the stove out of the corner toward the fridge I still need a wall to hang my hood on, and I'd need counter to the right of my cooktop. Wouldn't that be closing in my dining room again?

I'm not sure what split level upper cabinets are ...

The island is split to allow for a butcher block topped unit on the end for rolling dough and food prep, sort of like this:

{{!gwi}}

mamapapa: I already lost a lot of upper cabinets when I decided to put in the huge window over the sink, but I'm going to take another look and see if I can eliminate at least 1 more.

hehe, I just realized mamadada suggested fewer upper cabs and Kenneth suggested more of them! :)

Thanks guys for your input! So great to get some fresh eyes. :)

so funny... it really depends on what you are partial to. I like the unfitted kitchen look. I also cannot stand sinks or stoves in corners (just my little quirk), but it is your kitchen after all. two of my good friends have their ranges in corners and I have to keep my mouth zipped about it, but every single time I am at their house, I think, why, why?? If you took Kenneth's suggestion (about the stove out of the corner) your room would look awfully similar to your inspiration photo... something to consider.

The working triangle looks OK to me on the floorplan but on the overhead elevation it looks like you'd be bumping on the island passing from the sink to the fridge. And that's a lot of steps between them (looks like about 8' from the sink to the fridge and the fridge to the range).

If it were me, I'd want fridge drawers in the island or the cooktop on the island and the fridge in place of the range/cooktop. But I can't quite see how to take out that wall between the kitchen and dining area and you'd still need a wall oven if you put the cooktop on the island.

How is your kitchen arranged now?

mamadada,

I've never been in a kitchen with a stove or sink in the corner, so it didn't even occur to me it might feel awkward. It did worry me that I was hard-pressed to find other layouts with stoves in the corner.

If I move my my cooktop over, I'm wondering how much counter I should allow for on each side it.

imrainey,

ack, I'm embarrassed to post these but here's my current layout:

And I agree about the location of the fridge. I would love to put a fridge drawer under my counter for produce. Wish they weren't so darn expensive.

If it were me, I'd eliminate the duplication of eating areas. Slide the kitchen ALL the way down to the dining room space, and turn the eat-in area into a larger eat-in area, and label it "dining room."

I've never wanted two places to eat. We have one right now, and that's great!
And, w/ the island she's designed, you have two *casual* places to eat and they're right next to each other--that strikes me as silly. People sitting at your dinette table will feel close to you in the kitchen! So if you're going to have a casual eating area w/ a table, you don't need the stools at the island.

Or, if you like the stools at the island, and you turned that table into a much larger "dining room" type place, then the stools sort of make sense as a "quick bowl of cereal" type place. But you have a larger surface, close to the family room, for eating, for crafting, for homework, for a BUNCH of people sitting around talking while a couple of them are putzing in the kitchen

Plus, your dining room is only accessible THROUGH the kitchen, and don't most folks w/ 2 eating areas use the DR for company? So you'd want it closer to the "socializing center" of your home anyway, right?

And this would move the door to the basement out of the middle of your kitchen, and put it between the kitchen and the dining area.

And you could get rid of the cabinet in the corner by the sliding doors, and simply have furniture there.

Honestly, I think both rooms would get bigger.

At the very least, I think you should explore the possibilities that would come w/ this idea, to see if they appeal to you and fit the way your family lives.

And I think you could have a sort of nice galley kitchen. Galleys don't work well if they get too wide, but I think you'd be OK. (U shaped you could do, and your kitchen would be large enough that the corners of the U wouldn't rob you of a huge percentage of space)

I *HATE HATE HATE* the stove in a corner. Cooktop, MAYBE, but never a range. Because, you see, I have short arms, and I find that I stand sort of beside the door to get heavy stuff in and out of the oven. I don't have enough leverage for a turkey, if I stand on the far side of the open oven door!

I just remembered that Fisher & Paykel is coming out with a single drawer that can be either a fridge or freezer in October. My DH gets a 40% rebate on F&P products, so maybe I could get one of those...

Are windows already placed? if not:
Could you put your cooktop on the wall where the sink is,
put two windows on either side, you could do a beautiful hood over the cooktop
put your main sink on the island, you won't feel so isolated from the family room as you will facing the window
because you already have a separate dining area could you incorporate your kitchen dining area as part of your island?

erikanh..In my current kitchen I have a sink along my long wall with a large window above and the range along a short wall. The plan for the new kitchen is to flip them. The cooktop will go along the long wall and the single large window window will be replaced by 2 smaller windows. The short wall will now have the main sink and the wall will be taken down to open it up to the room next to it.

This may work for you to help open things up. You may want to reconsider the 2 eat-in areas right next to each other as well.

erika,
you should forward this thread to Carole at CP... these are some great suggestions coming in. Maybe with her experience she can extract what will be best for you ?? just a thought.

Wow, talleysue, thanks for the great feedback!

I agree that the 2 large eating areas always seemed redundant and wasteful to me. My original idea when I met with the KD was to eliminate the DR altogether since we never use it in favor of a larger kitchen. She warned me that could hurt our resale value because people want a formal, separate DR.

I'm going to start looking at some U-shaped layouts to get some ideas. When I meet with the new KD, maybe I can ask her if she can 2 designs: 1 with a DR and 1 without.

Thank you so much!

I agree with tally_sue_nyc about moving the kitchen down. I was just going to suggest that when I refreshed and say the post.

I don't think opening that wall just a couple of feet will make you want to use anymore than what you do now. And three eating places for your space seems excessive. You could make a rather large more casual dining room and have seating at the island for a quick bite.

Since you offered eliminating the dining room as viable option to your KD, my suggestion is a bit drastic.

Change the 8' bay window to a counter height window a la buehl's window.

Eliminate the wall and move the main part of the kitchen to the right of the drawing. There would be plenty of space to play around in over there. Lots of storage possibilities. A whole extra wall to work with plus the cabs on the window wall could continue beyond a rectangle of space.

Create a larger eating area on the left side of the space that could serve as both formal and everyday dining depending on what dishes and linens you put out.

Slide bar area down the wall to bridge between new eating area and living area. Great for entertaining.

I don't have any design software, but maybe rhome or one of the many others who do could help you visualize this idea.

Here is a link that might be useful: buehl's window

I must be the world's slowest typer, or it took me really long to find the link to buehl's window, because now my suggestion doesn't seem so drastic now that everyone else agrees.

Thanks so much to everyone who has replied!

I know this is super rough and I'd have to figure out where appliances go, but something like this?

{{!gwi}}

Something very much like that although an island 5' across may be a bear to wipe down. You could place 12" deep storage on the south wall if you reduced your island to 3' across. Of course you probably don't need any more storage with 22' on the other side.

Tally_sue Said everything I was going to say.

I also want to add that that little eat in area is fine for a small family but if you have another child it will be useless.

I love my 30" deep cabinets and counters. There is a ton of storage in there and there is enough counter space even with appliances on it to work comfortably.

I agree that Talley Sue's idea is excellent. I've also always deplored the convention of breaking up space into duplicate not totally adequate dining areas.

If you do decide to keep the dining room, though, one simple device to make it more functional, less neglected, and less closed-in feeling would be to give it a door into that front room, assuming it's a living room. (Perhaps the door in the kitchen could move over there?) This would allow a circular flow. Being a dead end is good for bedrooms but often disastrously dysfunctional for active living areas. The lack of another way out is not only a physical barrier to living that would have taken place in a room, but it actually tends to cause people not to want not go in there. It's frequently literally not only un-attractive but repellent. How many times have you said, "What a pretty room" with absolutely no inclination to actually go in?

Thanks so much to everyone for all your fantastic ideas! I've been brainstorming all day. I really warming up to the idea of eliminating the dining room. Rosie, the room next to the DR was originally supposed to be a living room, but we turned it into a study.

One problem I can see with sliding my kitchen all the way to the right is that I think I would feel isolated from the rest of the household activity. One reason I like my open kitchen is because I feel like I'm near the people in the family room. Also, the kitchen seems like it would almost be too big to stretch across that whole area.

Then I was struck with the idea of perhaps making a small butler pantry/utility closet to the right of my kitchen. Two things I've always missed having are a broom closet and mudroom. I could put shelving along 2 or three walls for surplus dry goods, hooks on one wall for backpacks and overflow from my tiny coat closet (great for my husband who never ever hangs up his coat). I could even have a little area for sorting mail and where my husband can dump his briefcase and junk when he comes home. I picture a pretty French door with frosted glass leading to it.

This is super rough but maybe something like this:

{{!gwi}}

I'm wondering if I put the cooktop on that peninsula, how wide should that counter be. Will it look weird to have the hood there over the peninsula? I don't want a downdraft.

Thanks again everyone!

I think this direction is great Erika. Is there a way to get your cooktop on an outside wall? as I understand it, the venting works much better when it doesn't have to travel too far through ductwork. Perhaps not a big deal if you aren't cooking a lot.

You are going to have a long walk from your frig to both your cooktop and your dining area. I'm assuming you're flexible on the window placement since it looks like you're already planning a window change?

What if you moved the clean up sink to the left on that counter run and then put the range on the right side of that counter run. Then I would move the prep sink closer to the frig side of the island. Do you really need/want that peninsula there. Most people find the "L" shape more appealing because they don't have to be winding around the counter. Just picture getting to and from the table with food, dirty dishes, etc. I'm assuming each of these boxes represents 3'? The ovens look really close to the edge of the island. I don't think anyone could pass by with the door down. Even more congestion if the frig door happens to be open while the oven is open.

I do like the butler's pantry idea, but it seems like you have a lot of wasted space in that area. Maybe make the shelving deeper. The mail counter will definitely come in handy. It might help if you could figure out to eliminate the tall pantries and move that stuff into the pantry. My kitchen is 18' X 13 1/2' with an island. These kitchens just aren't very wide and it's hard to have an island(especially with seating) and cabinetry behind it. The clearances just aren't there. That's why I think you're having a tough time with the wall ovens. Would you consider a range?

she warned me that could hurt our resale value because people want a formal, separate DR.

Actually, I'm not sure most people DO want this.They want AN area that's large enough for a big meal, but I bet your current dining room won't be a draw, whereas a large family-room-to-dining-room-to-kitchen space *will*.

So, make your current eating area be the formal area, and keep the casual eating of the peninsula.

My dining room is roughly 15x15. I can fit a decent-sized, real dining-room table in there, plus a buffet, plus a wall unit, plus a piano, and still walk around everything.

And I would NOT want my stove next to the dining room. The stove is the hot, messy, unpleasant part of the kitchen--it spews out steam and grease and heat; it gets messy and spattered, and I find that I sometimes leave the pots & pans to cool there after I've finished cooking (and while we're eating), and I would want that far away from where everyone is relaxing.

and if my kitchen were large enough to have one or two pantry cabinets, I would bail on the butler's pantry.

To be useful, a butler's pantry should go between the kitchen and the dining room; you have it WAY out of the action. Your husband is NOT going to go in there and dump ANYTHING, and neither are you. You'd be better off trying to add some sort of closet cabinetry right next to the garage door.

Pls, try again w/ the kitchen all the way at the end, using the end window. Try to keep ALL of your kitchen to the right of the hallway & garage doors. Move the peninsula closer,so that it falls either just after or just under the huge window. Then, you can have a large dining area that will link relatively well to the old living room.

Oh, I see your point about feeling far away from the family room, and I understand it. At the moment, do people gather at the dinette table in that corner space?

talley sue... you are amazing. your suggestions are great. I am helping my friend design her kitchen right now and am learning so much on GW, but I am just in awe of your ability to view that plan and be able to verbalize so well what would make it better.

I put the cooktop in the peninsula so I could get closer to the living area but I can definitely see your point it's a drawback having it next to the dining area. I can move the cooktop next to the clean-up sink but the window will have to move way down. I'm not sure how to make that look symmetrical. I really really want a huge window on that wall. My kitchen is starving for natural light, and I have a great view there into the woods. This is almost making me want to put the cooktop in the corner again. Eek!

That drawing is still very rough, so as far as the closet area, I just threw some boxes in there to represent shelving, didn't think about the measurements yet.

I probably don't need to tall pantries if I make a walk-in pantry.

I can't do a range, because I'm definitely getting an induction cooktop, but the oven could go under it or in the island.

Thanks again ladies, for all your terrific feedback.

{{!gwi}}

I like this one a lot although I don't know that mail would ever make it into the pantry. I'm completely envious that you have room for a 6'x13' pantry. If this isn't your final, it's pretty darn close.

I think I may have missed this, but where is your garage and where is the foyer?

If you do cabinetry for storage in the pantry area I think it will be ok. If you're planning open shelving, I don't think that would be too attractive, unless you are planning a door there.

What if you put the wall ovens to the right of the frig and moved the opening to that pantry room against the wall? That would put the ovens on the working side of the kitchen and out of the way. You could then eliminate the counter and have a nice clear aisle to the pantry room and plenty of room for stools. The island would be the drop spot for items out of the oven.

If you moved the clean up sink further left and then moved the cooktop left, you could still have a nice big window over the sink, hood for the cooktop and then a smaller window to the right of the cooktop. It wouldn't be "symmetrical" but it would be balanced. Where are you planning on storing your dishes/glasses?

In your plan, it looks like a lot of steps from fridge to range.
How about getting rid of the peninsula with the range and having an island in a different shape? maybe like a half-hexagon (dont know what else to call that shape) or L-shape. If you have your range or sink on the diagonal part, you will be facing the family room.
The pantry/mudroom is a great idea, I would definitely have one if I had room for it.

Thanks a million to everyone who has responded.

laxsupermom: Right now we're sorting mail in the study which is further away, so I think this will be an improvement.

mahlgold: We have a garage under which is accessed through that door and through the basement. Our kitchen is at the back of the house and the foyer is at the end of the hall through that opening. Excellent idea to move the pantry door over and get rid of everything from that wall.

I don't think I can bear to give up my long window, so I think I might move the fridge back to where it was before and put fridge drawers in the island. I know they're ridiculously expensive, but for the sake of symmetry and my window, I think I may have to splurge.

I think I'm getting the closest I've ever been to a layout I'm happy with. I think the only thing I had to sacrifice was my built-in china cabinet in the dining room.

I'm not sure about some cab sizes so this drawing is rough. Not sure about the prep sink in the corner. I can move it to the island, but I'm uncertain how to best utilize that corner.

{{!gwi}}

Our garage is under our great room and we too walk in through the basement and upstairs into the foyer right off the kitchen. Your house layout is very similar to ours except we have our great room off of the side where you are planning your pantry area.

Your 2 sinks are very close together and it is very tight where your prep sink is. If you keep your prep items in the frig drawers, you're going to be crossing over the cooktop all the time and it doesn't seem like you'll actually have a lot of space to "prep". With this layout, your clean up sink is not centered on the cabinet run, it should be further left, if that is important to you.

You're also starting to creep into the dining area. Maybe you should put your table and chairs into this layout and make sure there are enough clearances. Your island is REALLY long. Do you really need all those cabinets in there? Have you inventoried all your stuff. I suggest you take a tape measure and see how long a 14' island actually is. I just cut mine back from 10' to a little over 8' because it seemed huge to me. My kitchen space is 18' long.

I think in theory this layout will work out great. I'd like to see the clean up sink further to the left and then the prep sink in island. Most people like to prep on the island so they can interact with people in the kitchen. You'd be stuck in the corner. I especially don't think you'd like that as you mentioned you were concerned with the kitchen moving to the right and feeling "left out".

To me, I think the dining room needs to be bigger to be more in proportion to the kitchen. Also the sliding glass door is off the dining room too. So you will want to have lots of room to get around the table even if the chairs are pulled out, like my DH and kids have a habit of doing. You've got the space so why not?

The question I would have for you to consider is how much do you plan to use the butcher block part of the island and how much of the time it will be wasted or in the way?

Don't answer me, just think about it.

Have you considered making your proposed pantry area into a breakfeast nook?

The size of your last island is so big you may want to split it into two smaller ones. Make a triangle with the fridge,sink, and cooktop. Leave the fridge where you have it now and put a cooktop with a drop down hood over the island closest to the fridge and sink. Leave a walk space and put the butcher block on the other island by the table ???

Just a thought, can you push that island a bit more towards the foyer (maybe align it with the fridge drawers end) and make it angled? I feel having an angled island will make it look nice.

Thanks again for all the great suggestions. I've whittled the gargantuan island way down. I made sure the dining room table will fit well with plenty of room all around.

I found this photo on the Crown Point website that gave me some ideas.

{{!gwi}}

Now my layout looks like this:

{{!gwi}}

Not sure what to do in the corner, maybe something like this.

{{!gwi}}

I still need to inventory all my items to fine-tune what will go where and tweak drawer sizes, etc. I'm a little worried about not having enough space for cereal, canned goods, jars, etc.

I like your second layout. You don't "need" a prep sink with this layout although one in the island would be nice. And I'd keep the counter in the corner open. You'll find with this layout you're doing a lot of the prep work between the sink and stove and that extra counter will be rally useful especially if DH or your kid wants to help out.

I liked your bigger island with the beverage center. I would have just taken out one set of the drawers but that's me - you may need the storage more.

I'd also switch the recycling and trash because you want your wet trash closest to the sink like for scraping plates, etc.

I like the way your layout is evolving and think you're on the right track --

But I think the 'formal dining room concerns' are valid, and this is from someone who NEVER uses a formal dining room.

What I think works really, really well though is to have a CASUAL "formal dining room" -- one where the furniture and surfaces are casual in nature, but nice enough to feel special. Warm woods, good artwork, great lighting. A room that's nicely-sized and beautifully decorated. Think of a restaurant with great ambiance, and work towards that look. Separate it from your kitchen and family room just enough so that you can call it a "formal dining room" with a totally straight face! But make it friendly enough and durable enough that you can actually use and enjoy the space. Hide the dirty dishes and kitchen mess, but wide door opennings to preserve the feeling of openness.

hi erika,

we don't have a formal dining room. we had one, but needed it to redirect the traffic in our house. The dining room was essentially a pass through from the entry way... very awkward. in this renovation we completed we did away with it and have a nice table in our living space (which is sort of a combo family, dining, kitchen space).

our architect came up with a plan that will allow us to turn our laundry room into a dining room down the road if we feel we need one (this would mean putting the laundry upstairs which would mean adding on a bedroom upstairs (on top of a flat roof)... all of this would be a significant investment so we don't plan to do it unless it really irks us to not have a dining room. I personally don't feel the need.

that CP photo you posted was one of my inspiration photos for my kitchen. I love that kitchen .the designer i used said that it is in Portsmouth, NH... I asked lots of questions about that particular kitchen and studied it as if I were preparing to take a final exam!

on another note, I wanted you to know about a Boston area GW get together coming up in early September. at this point, I think the 6th. It will be in burlington, MA so maybe something not too far from you and hopefully you can make it. keep your eyes peeled for a post on it.

sweeby, I totally agree that what you describe is the ideal. Maybe I'll be able to have such a space in my next house, but I think this house is too small to achieve that. I think I'm going to opt to focus on the space that I use every single day, and try to make it fabulous.

mamadada: DH and I moved up here from Arlington, MA and he still commutes to Boston every day. Burlington is not far for me ... I practically lived at the Expo during my bathroom remodel! I'd love to attend the Boston area get-together if schedule permits. That's the weekend of DH's birthday, so we'll have to see. I was going to suggest the Cheesecake Factory at the mall, but it may be too noisy there for us to hear each other. :)

hi Erika,
does DH want to spend his birthday with us? :)
this will be a S.O. optional event. I haven't decided yet if my DH will be invited. He gets a little peaved at me for spending so much time on GW so not sure he deserves to come!! (honestly he should be thankful for all the time I spend on here... it is why our kitchen looks so good!).

We were thinking of Summer Winter at the Burlington Marriott... just down the road from the mall.

hmmm, good question, mama ... probably the only way I could get him there would be if I tricked him into it ("Heyyyyy, what are you guys doing here?? What a coincidence!"), and that probably wouldn't be very nice to do on his birthday. I'm not planning anything elaborate for his birthday this year since last year we threw a big surprise party for his big 40, so I might be able to come. =)

Thanks again to everyone for all your terrific feedback. I've incorporated many of your suggestions. I'm still tweaking my layout, but I emailed a copy to the designer at Crown Point so that she'll have an idea of what my priorities are.