I think it's a mistake to think that "everyone" follows decorating trends. Not in the Philadelphia area where I live they don't! LOL! Been looking at a lot of local real estate ads and have not seen many "GW" type kitchens around here. In fact, most people seem to redo the kitchen only every 15-20 years.

I'm about 1 hour north of Philly, 2 south of NY and it's a pretty desirable area densely populated. Doylestown, the county seat is a 'historic' village with all Victorians in the boro, but the immediate surrounding 'burbs are also considered a 'very nice area'. Take a look at the local real estate link for houses in the $500K range - only maybe 7 of the first 20 have obviously redone kitchens, less than half. Most of the rest have oak and wallpapered soffits. No fancy hoods either. Nor Wolf ranges. Not even many islands! I once calculated (because I love numbers) that 40% of the homes in my area have mismatched appliances. :)

Got curious when I first noticed this so I started looking "up" in price. You don't really see "GW" kitchens around here until you get to the $1.5M price tags. Even in Chestnut Hill and Wyndmoor, where I work and the old money of Philadelphia lives. Big HUGE old stone houses going for minimum $900K and they have old kitchens. It made me think EVERYONE on GW lived in multi-million dollar homes! :)

Eventually I found out some of the really swanky kitchens on GW were actually in cape cods, small ranch houses, and even townhouses. They just all belonged to people who were interested in a stylish and/or high-end kitchen. Or who were REALLY into cooking, whether foodie or gourmet.

I DEFINITELY think the people who haunt this webpage are not your average homeowner. Unless it's just everywhere else in the country (could well be!) and Philadelphia is behind the times as usual. :D

Don't look for soapstone if you get transferred into Philly, anyway!

"Today I was flipping through my well-worn issue of Better Homes and Gardens Beautiful Kitchens from last summer. Looking at all these gorgeous kitchens makes me question what exactly is a magazine kitchen? These kitchens are in just about every color and style you can imagine. Truly the only things I can see they have in common is that they are very expensive and huge. Oh, and all appliances are built in and stainless steel or paneled."

This is so true. While it seems to me that there are an awful lot of kitchens on this forum lean to a certain look( white, soapstone, marble, Shaker, cup pulls, all of which I happen to love, too) I don't necessarily think it's a proportional representation of what is going on in kitchens throughout the country.

biochem,

I agree with seeing lots of old kitchens around here. I also grew up in an area where the kitchen was likely to be the one that was built with the house. Maybe this is why I worry about 'trendy'.

I may be doing a kitchen in a Doylestown twin that is all stainless. Including cabinets and countertops...but the HO is from CA and very experimental:)

I think there is a big difference between Chestnut Hill and parts of Bucks and the newer developing parts of the Main Line in Montgomery and Chester Counties.

I have seen family portraits of some old Phila. families where the the wing chair occupied by the matriarch/patriarch is threadbare..."if it was good enough for GrandMother, etc.--to some of those people, the kitchen they did in 1985 is "new". (relatively :)

However, I have been new construction in the Paoli/Malvern area with 20-30K of Subzero alone,(and not in millionaire's houses) there are wild variations of where people will spend money.

Call me cynical, but I'm taking that realtor's comments with a grain of salt. If the realtor was seeing houses that didn't have the ubiquitous magazine kitchen, they'd be telling the sellers that's why the house isn't selling because that's what buyers want nowadays and/or they'd be knocking the offering price down because the kitchen is dated. Do buyers truly want unremodeled, dated (small, dark, ugly cabinets) kitchens? Do buyers really want way-out-there individual taste remodeled designs? I think not. What's left but the current "ubiquitous" kitchen designs? That's what appeals to the masses.

palimpsest, if I'd have known you were in this area I'd have had you come do mine!

".--to some of those people, the kitchen they did in 1985 is "new".

I've had Realtors tell me that at open houses! i.e. "The Kitchen was completely remodeled 15 years ago and has PULLOUTS." Meaning pullout shelves in lower cabinets. This happened about a month ago, I'm totally serious.

And yes, I know something of those old Philadelphia families. It's the Quaker background that permeates certain parts of the area. ;)

You don't actually need a mass of people to buy your house, just one will do.

I don't necessarily think it's a proportional representation of what is going on in kitchens throughout the country.
No, it's not. We're typically around 5 years behind everyone else. There are still many starter home neighborhoods coming up with tiled countertops, no granite. Tiled floors instead of wood in the kitchen is still the norm around here. And I'm guilty - I've covered my tile with a long somewhat ugly gel pad.

We typically don't remodel to sell. Around here we remodel to stay -- don't touch it if you're selling. Let the buyer do what they want. It's considered a huge waste of money to remodel before a sale. Just spruce it up the best you can without spending a fortune, and make sure it's neutral and clean. I often think what if you have to rent? In this economy, I wouldn't want to rent a recently remodeled home. Of course I'm thinking in terms of a house like mine which is 1800 sq ft, much smaller than most.
I'm one of the first on this street to remodel, and I'll be the only one with granite. Most of the folks are around 10 to 15 years older than me, and aren't really interested.
And in these parts they only remodel kitchens and baths every 15-20 years. I was astounded to hear that there are people who would even consider doing this every 10 years.

So I am trying to obtain the best look that matches my mid 70's "Acadian/Country" style home and not go overboard for this plain jane neighborhood. That is what had me staying away from granite at first. I really did think it looked too high end for my kitchen. (But, today I dragged DH with me to look, as it's now much less expensive than the quartz.)
I will be able to justify it I think, because I inherited a formal dining room which is next to the kitchen.
But, there are days that I wonder what am I thinking, considering a high end countertop like quartz or granite, and I have this little country galley kitchen, ordering alder cabinets with knots???
It's basically all about what is available in your price range that you really like and will work. There are so many reasons we couldn't do soapstone, laminate, butcher block, stainless. So, granite it is, for cost effectiveness.
I didn't buy my mother's 1920's garden district home. We close on it next month. I'd have been under so much scrutiny to "get it right" in the kichen remodel. Beadboard, white cabs, glass knobs, white or stainless appliances -- it all would have worked just fine. I think for the most part if you just at least have a touch of the past in an old house that is usually good.

One thing I hate far worse than a modern kitchen in an old house has already been mentioned -- destroying the general layout. Add closets, yes, add a room if you must, but don't make it this totally open warehouse, please. Having separate rooms - the different layout with the nooks and such is so part of the charm!

From OP: "you know stainless steel appliances, stone counter top, backsplash with the medallion in the center, oversized sinks, 3 foot tall faucets, etc."

From Elizpiz: "All of us could create stunning kitchens with exactly none of those features..."

I have to follow Elizpiz's statement with 'And many of us could create kitchens with exactly all of those features that look stunning and are completely different'...And I think she was making that point, too. If the kitchens in these particular homes were 'all alike,' it was not just about those particular elements, and the range of materials/colors/finishes available is vast. --Maybe not in lighting and appliances colors, but in so many other variables that will affect the final result.

I happen to prefer, like many here, a kitchen that is ready to be redone in my own way. I could also prefer an overall look that wasn't 'me,' but was well-executed and had some character to something that looked straight out of a magazine without any personal input. That's not a viewpoint shared by most buyers, if we believe what the TV shows and articles about the subject have to say. However, the buyers of our last house LOVED the backsplash tiles with our children's handprints and still have them up. (I know this from a mutual friend.) So there are others like me out there.

I agree with Sleevepresto and wonder what the realtors would have preferred or suggested instead? What kind of kitchen could they have been excited to see in those homes? If cookie cutter, magazine look was out, where was the line between that and too individual or unique to suit most buyers? It's easy to try to sound knowledgeable and critique, but I'm betting if the buyers had asked ahead of time what was best for resale, the realtor would have certainly suggested stainless appliances and stone counters.

This is my fear as I start to finally redo my 1955 kitchen. It feels like we are hitting the end of a series of trends, reinforced by realtors, retailers, etc.
The market is oversaturated with homes with cabinets of certain styles/ colors, similar granite countertops, ss appliances etc.

I bought my "new" fridge 2 years ago and bought a stainless one - not because I love stainless, but because I knew I was doing over the kitchen and felt compelled to do ss. I'm regretting the choice some now - wishing that I had stuck with black, which seem to recess into the space better.

I find myself anxious to look beyond the current "trends" to find the next thing - so that my home won't look dated in a few years. (remember the pickled cabinets and then the "limed" finish of the last 7-15 years?)

Plllog, no need to be sorry. If my post came across as injured it was written at a bad time. My cat has been near death since Thursday. I was taking a quick break from watching him. He died just after I posted.

My concept of modern was too narrow. I was thinking of sleek glass and slab cabinets, very inorganic, clean lines. I love Italian, French and English kitchens. That chateau style house must have been a beauty. It is heartbreaking to think it was changed into someone's concept of a Mac Mansion. Whatever happened to it?

I know what you mean about following the progress of all the kitchens. It is enjoyable to see different styles and very creative design.

while i am not sure of the philadelphia market were i am located Hudson valley of ny there are a lot of weekend homes belonging to people from NYC. I think that much of what the realtors were talking about but did not do a good job of explaining was this. There are a lot of kitchens here in houses meant to sell to a group of people who may just expect an updated kitchen.

For the Heck of it today I went to see a piece of property today with commercial kitchen in it not a commercial quality an honest to goodness commercial kitchen previous owner was a caterer

Talk about stainless steel

it was in an addition to a 1900 house that had been added to house the kitchen. it worked house had been restored and you wall through an old swinging butlers door and there you are Stainless Steel nirvana

I never posted finished pics of the kitchen not sure why
it was 2006's DIY project probably started 2007's

Second realtor looked at house today comments about kitchen were it looked good buyers would like the appliances and the stone counters but that little sink being the only one might put some people off

oh well change it

works for us and in the long run isn't that what many of us really want a kitchen that is our own and works for us?

Oh, Judy, I'm so sorry about your cat!! How terribly sad. I wish you peace.

I get what you mean about "modern" now. I was thinking of anything that's current, rather than Modern as a design concept. :) Twoyur's kitchen is the former, but it's warm and has some traditional/transitional elements that help it blend.

You know, after I posted, I thought that some more about that chateau. There was a bad '60's era addition which had been used as a professional office, a rec room, etc. It was badly built, badly designed, and just kind of glommed on. The thing to do for a big kitchen would have been to rip that whole thing down, and add one of those modern glass kitchens. Very pyramid at the Louvre. Use the old kitchen and breakfast room as pantry and office or something, but keep the lines. I think I heard that a large family who could use the bad addition moved in and didn't do much to it. I hope they didn't wreck the garden! The guy I was with isn't into plants but even he appreciated the grounds.

Contrary to the kind of agents Twoyur has been talking to, the ones showing this house did tout the gardens (which were worth it), but otherwise were trying to push the horrible addition as house space (and did finally sell it as bedrooms even though I don't think it would pass inspection if it had to...). They'd never say anything adverse about a property. They were talking about how the (unpermitted) pool house was a great teen bedroom! In its current state, I'd say it made a good tool shed. :)

cotehele, I'm so sorry to hear about your cat.

Oh Cotehele,

I am so very sorry to hear about your cat.

It has been 21 years since I lost my Lucy and I will
never forget him. I got him when I was 4 and he was the
best friend I ever had. I still miss him today.
I no longer cry when I think of him but I will never
forget him. Hoping you know you are not alone with
your love for your cat.

Thinking of you.
~boxerpups

Twoyur, your in progress kitchen is very tastefully done. Anyone should be happy cooking there. I am sorry, I didn't intend to hijack your thread.

plllog, witersblock and boxerpups, thank you. Our first cat lived to be 20 y/o. DH always said she was too mean to die. Thankfully, we got a sweetheart in Peter. Lucy sounds like a sweetheart, too. I am glad he lived in your loving home. Was there a gender identity challenge when he was named?

plllog, I love light and spectacular view from the kitchen. Ya can't get any better than the glass pyramid! You must be a garden lover. I took an introductory landscape architecture and fell in love with garden design, although I am not very talented. Visiting restored gardens is one of my favorite things to do. Maybe at some point the new chateau owners restored the gardens and did something the the addition.

It's difficult to tell when an item is fairly new whether it is a trend or a new standard. Since I have all the things the realtor suggested, except the backsplash medallion (if I had tile I'm sure I'd have one), I'd like to think they are new standards. Anything considered "standard" today--i.e. white appliances, black appliances, formica, peninsulas/islands with stools, single lever faucets...were all new at some point. The longevity test most likely includes functionality, affordablity and a range of choices in design/color to harmonize with just about any kitchen decor. Avocado green appliances obviously wouldn't pass the design/color test and color alone wouldn't have any impact on functionality. It seems that most decorative elements/styles go in and out of favor.

I think stainless steel, large sinks, tall pull down/pull out faucets, and stone countertops are here to stay. Maybe they won't be as popular as they are now since there will always be something new (and possibly trendy) to try, but I do believe they'll continue to be reliable choices for years to come. The functionality of these items have been often discussed on this forum.

As far as stainless steel goes...people have different experiences. Most of us have very limited experiences with any kitchen feature which means most of us can't be considered experts. Blanket statements, such as "stainless is hard to keep clean" scares people off even when others chime in to say this hasn't been their experince. Since negative reviews seem to get perpetuated they eventually get thought of as fact. I find my fridge (Electrolux with a no smudge coating) and F&P dd's much easier to keep clean than any of my previous white or black appliances. Since the maintenance issue can be overcome and since stainless is a neutral color not at the extremes of the color spectrum like white and black, I think it will remain a popular choice. After 4 years I still love my stainless even if it is seen everywhere.

Where I live, true old farmhouse kitchens have ecletic mixes of styles. The farmers I know are practical people and their kitchens reflect this. Things get replaced as needed--rarely are total kitchens redone. My house was built in 1911 and was part of a dairy farm until about 5 years before we bought it. The house is full of old dark wood--it looks like it was never stained and darkened naturally. I try to envision the house when it was first built---it probably was full of light new wood and the kitchen probably looked nothing like the style we now call farmhouse. The owners before us unfortunately ripped everything out of the kitchen but I doubt whether anything from 1911 was still there (or even if the original kitchen occupied the same space.)

Since WWII, kitchens in the newly built homes reflect those "ubiquitous magazines", as did a kitchen renovated in any decade since. Sometimes they fit the "style" of the house, but not always because the style of the house may not have fit with what the owner wanted, or may not fit with having a workable kitchen.

It's no different from the kitchens in 1955, or any other decade. There's certainly no reason to ridicule or disparage current kitchen design, it just reflects current taste.

as the OP it was never my intention to ridicule or disparage current kitchen design nor do I think any one here has.

The house I currently live in was built in 1904 cooking was done in basement. in 1951 the kitchen was moved to the first floor that entailed putting a metal sink base with draws on both sides and cabinet in middle. Also a General Motors/ Frigidaire hotwater heater which supplied the 6 square feet of counter space in the kitchen There were no cabinets just the free standing stove and a small kitchen table with two chairs. & layers of linoleum ( the real honest to goodness linseed oil stuff) the refrigerator was in the pantry

as any good frugal person would do they made do with this until the original owner died and we purchased the house

way to many years later I redid the kitchen will it last 55 years like the last one? No. If I sell there is always the possibility it may not make 5. I know i said I thought and others stated also that there is much more opportunity to see what designers and others are doing but as I read all of this and think about it I am beginning to think that another reason is we buy sell move across states and the country now at a rate that would have mystified many people 55 years ago. Are we just trying to make something even if is for only a few years "ours" and since kitchens have become the focal point of many homes they have become the focus of making the house home? I have often read hear of people saying this is their forever house. that is a concept I do not get. I can not see me living anywhere for ever.

My parents have been in the same house since before I was born. Two houses on their block have people who moved in since 1975--because the old folks passed on. I'm not counting the two houses where the kids have taken over from their parents. I've moved around plenty, lived elsewhere and abroad, but only bought once. I intend to be here forever. And I intend my current kitchen remodel to last the rest of my life with some minor tweaking in case I need to replace an appliance or something. Heck, I lived with the impossible old kitchen for 7 years!

Twoyur, is your house a live in and flip? (As in two years for the tax waiver?) If so, I'd like to say that from the looks of it the kitchen may very well do the buyer well, and could last a very long time. Unless...that round sink in the island is a prep sink? Or is it the only sink? I understand the agent's comment if it's the latter, but as you said, it's an easy change. :)

plllog

No it is not a flip

We have lived here for 14 years lived with the old kitchen for 11 of them

Yes the round sink is the only sink in the kitchen I know it appears small and house guests are always saying it so small when they arrive and those that use it always say after that it is much larger then it appears

One thing about soapstone is it is easily changed and things were placed so you can cut a larger opening if so desired.

Since we decided to stay within the foot print of the 1951 remodel and we wanted all the appliances in the main kitchen this was worked. almost 3 years later the only thing we realized we forgot was where to store the water cooler bottles.

if and it is still an if we move it will be to get out of the village and into something that has more land.

i guess one thing this whole conversation has made me realize is I have to get finished pics together and get them into the FKB

Between it and the DW e own nothing we can not wash

Thanks for the info! I get the land thing. :) That's why the side discussion about the chateau with the great grounds. Good luck with the search!

A good agent will know how to sell your kitchen. Like this:

Folks, here's a new kitchen remodeled just two years ago. Can you imagine cooking in the basement? That's what they did in the 1900's when the house was new. Rather than ruin the lines of the interior with a gargantukitchen that one would find in an estate home, these people have managed to fit a Wolf range and long counters in the original, 1950's efficiency footprint. Look at how much work space there is on the soapstone counters! By installing a single bowl sink, they even got seating room at the island. Isn't it clever? The great thing about a town kitchen is that it has just what you need and no waste. They say they can wash anything, and don't miss a bigger sink, but if you'd rather put one in, the base cabinet will accommodate it, and the soapstone can be cut in place with woodworking tools. (From here launch into the virtues of soapstone: water repellent, heat resistant, easy care, etc.)

Any agent who can't do that isn't a good representative for your house. And any buyer's agent who runs down the kitchens of the properties, rather than listening to what you want, also isn't representing you well. If the comment came from something you said, such as that you were looking for a kitchen that needs updating, fine. But if she's pointing "magazine kitchens" out as flaws before you even see the houses, she's doing neither of you any favors.

Bravo, Plllog!! Very well said!

Twoyur, best wishes in your search for the best realtor to help you sell and also find the perfect land with a house that is all you're hoping for.

Cotehele,

Yes perhaps there was a gender confusion.
He was all Male when it came to neighborhood fights,
ignoring wild dogs, hunting small critters...
But with me he was All Doll.

Wow! This has been a great conversation. I was away for the wknd for my niece's university graduation party, and am now getting my GW fix. As always, lots of good stuff to catch up on.

First of all, Cotehele, I am SO sorry about your kitty. Our dear little friend is only seven so I hope she's with us for many more years to come, but I dread the day we will say goodbye. So (((hugs))) to you.

After reading this whole thread through (and leaving aside the very interesting conversations around design and aesthetics, and thank you, plllog, for the very kind words about our kitchen!), the two things that really struck me were, from Palimpsest: ...it has become a check list of "must haves", rather than "ok, whats more appropriate for my house and the way I function." It's peer pressure, in a way. and Southernstitcher: It's basically all about what is available in your price range that you really like and will work. If you can keep those two thoughts in mind, then I think the end result will be just fine. There are many things I would have liked in our kitchen (a walk-in pantry for one, room for a first floor powder room as part of our remodel for another), but our house is relatively small (about 1800 sq. ft) so that shaped the priorities.

And, yes, RHome, I was saying exactly that!

Funny, I was chatting with my sister about this thread while I was visiting and was telling her about Christopher Peacock and the "white kitchen" wave. Shes been in her house for 14 years and said that when they were building it, white kitchens were all the rage. As the French say: plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose (the more things change, the more they stay the same!)

BTW, I'm with plllog on the "forever home" thing. As Donnakay2009 said: I'm not thinking of how the house will fare on the market...bury me in the backyard. I'm not going anywhere!. After twelve years on our street, we are still the "newbies", with many families having been here for 20+ years. And after having lived with a shoebox kitchen for the first 11 years of the 12, I intend to fully enjoy the new one :-)

Thanks to all for a good read, from someone who has been known to wear very impractical shoes quite frequently!

Eliz

Judy, so sorry to hear the very sad news about your kitty. We lost our beloved German Shepherd on Wednesday. She was only 8 years old.

I think I remember you have a sweet golden retriever too?

Erika, I'm so sorry to hear your news too! How devastating. Was it unexpected?

Eliz

Thanks Eliz. She'd actually been sick for a couple of months, not being able to hold down food, throwing up almost every day. At first we were afraid she had gotten into paint or chemicals with all the work we've been having done and the workers not always careful about covering things up, but it wasn't that. Long story short after numerous vet visits, blood tests, xrays, ultrasound, various medications, they narrowed it down to either inflammatory bowel disease or lymphoma. The week before she died she seemed to be getting better, was holding down food. Despite all her drastic weight loss, she was cheerful and had an amazing amount of energy ... I really don't know what she was running on. Then on Tuesday she started throwing up again and the next day she collapsed in the yard and couldn't get back up. We're still reeling from the loss, especially my little girl ... they grew up together.

twoyur, please forgive the thread hijack!

(with apologies also for the hijack...)

How heartbreaking! Erika, I am truly sorry that your family has had to go through this, especially in the midst of a renovation upheaval. I'm sure your puppy was well loved and I know she'll be missed. They truly are part of the family, aren't they?

(((Hugs))) to you and especially your little girl too.

Eliz

Erika, I am very sorry you are going through the illness and loss of your precious pup. Dogs are such constant companions we are reminded of our loss every time a hand drops to rub their head and there is no one there. I am sure she gave you much joy and your love for her was her treasure. Yes, we have a golden (our seventh) about the same age as your German Shepard. My heart goes out to you, your daughter and your family.

Eliz, thank you. I hope Trixie is with your for a very long time to enjoy the warmth of your corner windows!

Twoyur, sorry, again...

Judy

Oh Erika,
I am truly sorry for your loss. As you can tell by
my name I am a huge dog fan. My first dog was a German
Shephard. I was a small child when she died and I can
still remember my parents crying with my siblings and I.

I can only imagine how devasted your little girl must be.
This is going to be a hard summer for her but in time,
And it will be a while yet, she will have such fond
memories of her dog. Those magical memories will help her
to grow into the loving, warm and wonderful person she will be.
Pets have such a profound effect on children and how
they relate to others in the world. It is a beautiful
way to teach humanity.

The gift your have given your daughter by having your
wonderful shepherd is something money could never buy.
Dogs are temporary treasures but the memories of them
are forever. I hope in time the pain will be less.
I truly feel for you and especially your little girl.
~boxerpups

Awww Cotehele and Erika, I"m sorry too. :( We lost our kitty during our renovation and I KNOW how much stress it caused me dealing with her cancer while dealing with everything else, and I still miss her. So I know how you feel.

I haven't noticed the ubiquitous magazine kitchens as much as the stock/standard builders grade kitchens. When we were househunting in PA 5 years ago, we noticed that no matter the price range, all the homes had the same basic idea - matching appliance suites, usually low end, mid-range quality cabinets, tile floor, maybe granite but usually corian or laminate counters, usually no backsplash unless the owners added later, builder grade fixtures, blah blah blah. And this was in homes in a 600-800 price range. We were shocked that in PA, you didn't get higher quality for higher price - ONLY more square footage. The 800k house was exactly the same as the 600k one except it was bigger. You had to go to the McMansions to get subzero or wolf or anything out of the "ordinary." I guess the market just doesn't support it otherwise? Coming from Boston where high end is squeezed into every square foot in tiny condos in the city, it was a shock.

I guess that's because there were no custom homes and people stuck to the builder "upgrades" that were available - the corian over laminate, or a few glass front cabinets here or there. But most didn't do the upgrades, I'm sure because builder upgrades are usually a ripoff. That was our first (and hopefully last) experience buying in the cookie cutter builder subdivisions in the 'burbs.

Coming to this thread late-- Besides feeling sad about these animals (so sorry, everyone), all I can keep thinking is: a 1900 farmhouse with an updated kitchen! AHHHH! Wonderful!
I am so jealous-- we don't have such old houses around here.
And doing the first up-to-date remodel of one of them is an utter pain-- I would think people would be thrilled that the work is done for them.

It sounds like you may have been looking in Philadelphia and its environs. We are open house junkies and since we look at certain types of properties we know some of the realtors.

It seems that there are two major criteria for the physical house itself: square footage, or in the city, sq ft + view.

There is a particular group of houses on a particular street that we would buy among if the timing was ever right.
Once, after seeing one on the market a couple of times, I said to the realtor that every time I looked at the house it looked worse. --And she said "You're right, they are replacing higher quality materials with cheaper ones, and cheap appliances--But people are conditioned to see "new" vs."old".

She also said when she is selling in high rises units "people will walk through some pretty shoddy construction and say 'This apartment is beautiful!, Look at the view!' --When they should be looking at how things are put together"

I am also working with a client who is redownsizing after a brief period in a $1M house she can not afford. Although its overall construction was superior to many of its peers (Architect designed, Amish built), some of the materials were not so great...a lot of vinyl siding, plasticky hollow doors, no tile in 2ndary baths. Why in a $1M house? Because they needed to attain a certain square footage and number of garage stalls and full baths to meet a criteria for the area. I think she would have much rather built smaller and higher quality, but at that time it would not have been a "good investment".

In the house above, the kitchen /greatroom cabinetry cost as much as the entire budget for the gut rehab of the small house she bought.

palimpsest - you're exactly right - we were looking in the philly burbs, in many of the cookie cutter neighborhoods that were formally farms west of the city. (mostly Malvern, Newtown Square, West Chester areas.) It was all about the square footage. The houses were large in size but small in quality - Just like you said, hollow doors, cheap vinyl siding (or STUCCO. They love stucco in that area. With faux stone mixed in.) Builder grade knobs and lighting. Prefinished hardwood floors, if you were lucky enough to find a place with that upgrade. plain white 4x4 tile in the humongous master bath. SO MUCH BEIGE CARPET!!! hahaha.

Once we realized what our price range got us (having just sold a condo in Boston at the height of the real estate boom - we had no idea what that $$ translated to in Eastern PA) we changed our tactics - the move was temporary because of DH's job, we don't have kids, didn't need the McMansion (does ANYONE, really?) and nothing was on the market where we wanted to live (old homes in Ardmore, Wayne, etc) All the old homes we did see were like you said - remodeled POORLY. Because they wanted new - or maybe what was replaced was better than what was there - but it still was done badly.

In the end we ended up with a small (3200 sq ft! Ha!) cookie cutter townhouse which I began to loathe after about day 2. I just love old homes, I determined. Our Newport house is a tiny 2 br/ 1200 sq ft Victorian - and we love it. No more cookie cutters for us.

Oh Erica... so sorry for you and your family :-(
Such a hard thing to go through, especially for your little girl.

I hope that this is not straying too far from the "magazine" thread, but I think I can make it work! As a subscriber to Traditional Home and Architectural Digest, I always admire the homes presented; lately, because of our reno in progress, I focus almost exclusively on the kitchens (I thumb through them constantly, one day just at faucets, now, at bar stool ideas).

Well, while I admire them immensely, I can't help feeling a bit envious, because the homes are always so beautiful, often vintage, with unique features, and, unfortunately, like millions and millions of other Americans, we live in a subdivision, in what I am sure some would call a "cookie cutter." And, reading here, I cannot help but feel even worse. I am sure that no offense was intended, but I hope that some of you who are so lucky to live in homes with such wonderful character and charm (old farmhouses, Victorians, etc.) are sensitive to the fact that there are many of us who LOVE our homes, who LOVE to decorate and improve on the "cookie cutter" that we live in, and where we raise our families.

Would I love to live in a unique, architect-designed or vintage home? Absolutely! But we have lived here for 19 years, raised our children here, I work less than 3 miles away, the neighborhood is fantastic, and over the years we have added many personal touches. We are just now in the middle of our kitchen remodel, and we are trying hard to stay within the "fit" of the house, filling the kitchen with the finishes that we fall in love with, just like all of the wonderful posters on this forum. Truth be told, here in Southern California, OLD, character-filled homes or architectural wonders are hard to find, or not usually in areas that we want to live, or outrageously expensive. I love visiting the East Coast because of all of the wonderful, pre-subdivision neighborhoods, but it is not the norm here.

So, our type of home seldom makes it into the magazines, but we can try to make it beautiful. It is already a wonderful home!

Good point natenvalsmom, We are all working with "what we have". Keep in mind too and there are lots of advantages/amenities that you may have that we don't have in our historic home (for example, no attached garage, tiny master closets, a driveway that was clearly laid out before my suv was even thought of (SO many scraped tires :(, etc., etc.) Sometimes i get jealous of your nice drywalled walls and post-1935 plumbing! For us, there are definitely sacrifices to living in this particular historic district including much higher taxes combined with far less appreciation than our tree-less neighbors just to our north. Our friends vascilate between pity (for our lack of amenities) and jealousy (for our stately riverfront home).

The market over the past decade until a couple years ago put a lot of people into positions where they were buying what they could get, not really what they wanted. And of course, people were priced out of the market when they had decent amounts to invest, really. I know I criticize these houses, but I don't want to be critical of people who buy them...people buy whats available and meets certain needs for what they can afford. I know what I could afford in that market and it wouldnt be pretty.

My client actually bought a small postwar ranch (also cookie cutter) and the assessed value of the lot bare was worth more than with the house on it. (Which is what led to the teardowns) The house she is leaving DID have a beautiful kitchen (which was a separate contract, and custom)--and we are trying to capture some of that in the little house. What is interesting is that the LR, and new basement family, and three of the bedrooms have almost the same footprint as the big house. What the big house DID have was an oversized Master suite,(that still lacked closet space) a greatroom with a voluminous ceiling, and a ton of circulation space--grand halls and stairs and collateral breathing room that the small house doesnt have...and I am not sure needs.

Not having read through the responses, I just saw this and wanted to address your realtor's comment. First of all, my impression is that she's not a very good realtor. I simply don't believe that most potential buyers would be disappointed in the ''ubiquitous'' kitchen. Most realtors have been pushing the ''ubiquitous'' high-end kitchen for years, which is exactly why kitchens seem alike. ALSO, things like oversized sinks, tall faucets and stone counters are simply easier to use and keep clean. If you're actually using the kitchen to cook in, that is. (Of course, it's only taken decades of certain kitchen choices to figure this out.)

Those people (and realtors) who are disappointed, need to buy a fixer and make their own magazine-worthy kitchen. Those are the homes however, which are notoriously harder to sell. Realtors don't make as much money from them, and often have to spend more time trying to get them sold.

Here is what I think is going on...Your realtor wanted to impress you with her vocabulary. Ubiquitous is a word we don't hear everyday, and she wanted to convey the very tiredness of the definition, by passing it along as her ''professional opinion''. She also wanted you to know that...*big sigh*...these magazine kitchens are just so DISAPPOINTING. Apparently her clients are far more artistic and style-minded than the average person who has spent serious money to upgrade their kitchen to include quality materials which are easy to use. Most people who would make a bold statement in their kitchen, have probably have been told by that same realtor what ''everybody'' wanted in a kitchen, in order for her to sell the house. It's my opinion that the realtor is wanting to make herself sound more impressive and worldly to her ''potential buyers'', than focusing on the homes she has to sell. How in the world, would telling a client what other ''potential buyers'' want, help her to sell any house?

No. My advice? Run away screaming from that person. No way would I do anything to help her make money. No matter what she thinks, she doesn't understand how to sell homes. Some people's opinions aren't worth much.

Cotehele and erikanh, my heart goes out to you. Losing a pet is so heart-wrenching. My kitty is 14 and I tell him daily, "Stay healthy, keep on living, please."

The pet gender confusion post (was that you, boxerpups?) sent me down memory lane. A few decades ago, our neighbors had a cat named Frankly. One day we asked about the story behind the cat's unusual name. It sprouted from a family debate about whether the new kitty was a boy or a girl. The mom kept saying, "Frankly, I think it's a boy." Someone decided that Frankly made a good name and it didn't matter whether it was a boy or a girl (if memory serves, I think the mom was right after all).

Great discussion and some excellent points made. I wonder whether "cookie cutter" comes about because people are too busy or too overwhelmed to go through the decision process of designing a kitchen. Maybe simple multiple choice is the easy out and the fewer choices, the better.

Around here, the 800K house IS a MacMansion! I have been saddened many times over seeing what I could have in Houston or Atlanta. Housing definitely less expensive there, not to mention stellar public schools.

Natenvalsmom, don't feel bad. I know no one here was trying to be insensitive. Most of these same folks will chime in with loads of help on even the smallest reno! Like mine... I too live in the cookie cutter subdivision, after living my whole life in houses that weren't built after 1920. Total bummer when I had to move to the burbs to the 1970's home. (Only because DH didn't want to live where I was living).
I do have to be very careful, as I think most of us living in that type of area do with a remodel. If you live in the affluent areas - not a problem. You won't be overdoing anything. But, where I am, I could easily over do it. The granite might be overdoing it!

The MacMansions are coming up behind us soon -million dollar homes. They say this new neighborhood development will increase our property values. HA. Yeah, I'm waiting for that. What I'm waiting for is for the new homeowners to demolish our small houses on large lots so they can have the MacMansion AND the yard!!

Oops, took me so long to post that I missed reading the newest posts.

natenvalsmom, perhaps my choice of "cookie cutter" isn't the best but I didn't mean to offend. As one who lives in a newer subdivision, I'm sure "cookie cutter" describes my neighborhood (old homes are rare in my suburb and, as in your area, are in neighborhoods either too expensive or undesirable).

Descriptive aside, I do think that there are quite a few kitchen features that are so prevalent that the majority of people don't realize that there are other options. It's as if people were handed the equivalent of an 8-pack box of crayons to design their new kitchen instead of the jumbo box of 64 or (gasp!) 120 crayons.

I certainly meant no offense either - most of our friends marvel that we can "endure" living in a teeny cottage with only 2 br and a single bowl console sink in the master bath! Forget the fact that our closets are minuscule and that I actually have to have separate storage for winter clothes under the beds...or that my basement is dank and only has 6' ceilings. Oh and the money we had to put into it to get the systems up to snuff, insulation, OMG most people would RUN!!! Old homes are NOT for everyone - just like new ones aren't. And while I simply loved having a garage in the winter, huge closets and spacious rooms, a huge finished basement and all the other pluses one gets when buying a new home...it just wasn't me. (or DH.)

If DH and I had kids I have no doubt we'd have a completely different set of priorities - but since we don't, our needs are different than those who do - if we had kids then the areas we were in in PA would have been perfect, for example - but we felt like we didn't fit in out in the burbs. Add to that the fact that our first home was a condo in a 1910 brownstone that forced us to "live small" to begin with - and that we did renovations there to make it "ours." We both happen to be into carpentry/woodwork that you don't find in new homes unless you do it yourself (by renovating) or you buy a McMansion - which is too much house for us.

It was very disappointing, though, to see the quality of the very expensive houses we were looking at in PA. I do think that during the boom builders were building bigger but no better, because I guess that's what people wanted. I didn't see a single kitchen in those homes with anything better than GE Monogram appliances - not that those are bad - but you'd expect to see a Wolf or Viking or the like in a 800k home, right???? I know I would. Our realtor at the time said that wasn't what sold homes - people didn't put that in because they wouldn't get anything back on their investment. We had a gorgeous thermador in our little condo! It was just a different set of priorities, I guess.

Oh Judy and Erika,
I am so very sorry to learn about your pets.
Thinking of you both. (hugs)

Twoyur, I think it is important to keep in mind that a Realtor's job is to sell a home. If a realtor can lower a seller's expectations, his/her job is that much easier. The formula is simple: your home is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If the home hits the right chord in many people, you have a winner (and I happen to think yours, even it it's unfinished state, does).

I looked at over 100 homes over the course of over a year (no joke) before I bought a 1930s fixer in SoCal. The realtors never quite "got" it. I was told that to find what I was looking for I needed to double my budget. They kept showing me newly done-up kitchens that were "really nice" and I kept telling them they were horrible and felt "wrong" (either too closed in, or too "open" (think hamburger stand), or just laid out badly). Every one of them looked like a builder that was in a hurry had put them together from a catalog without taking into consideration the space they were meant to occupy.

What finally did it for me: the less than 1400 sq ft (formerly 2 small mountain cabins that were joined and added onto 10 years ago) house was in a great location; it had a kitchen that, although small, could be remodeled to accommodate 2 cooks and it had windows that looked out (which gave it some breathing room and made it a nice room to work/be in).

It is funny, because my kitchen inspiration file has clipping from magazines dating back 15 years, and many of them would also fall into the "ubiquitous kitchen" if I were to follow the list those realtors put together (my new in-progress kitchen included).

By the way, I don't think a sink will keep anyone from buying a house.

natenvalsmom, I am certain that many are envious of your position. Great neighborhood, work (three!!) miles away and a location that lets you "live" outdoors most of the year. The truth of the matter is that a house is just a shell (however beautiful it may be)--in the end it has to do what you ask it to, otherwise it becomes like living life in a very uncomfortable pair of shoes.

To those of you kind people who replied, thank you!

kpaquette: You are right about expecting higher end appliances/finishes in very expensive homes. These homes in this area were built in the 1980's, and there were three different, but bordering neighborhoods, all built by the same builder. One group was 2400-3200 sq.ft, another 4500-6500 sq.ft. We didn't buy until the 90's, but we looked at open houses in both neighborhoods; DH and I were both amazed that the same tiles(just diff. patterns/colors) same appliances (just bigger), same fixtures, same construction quality throughout the houses, were used in all of the houses. The bigger houses didn't even have a significant number of extra rooms...everything was just HUGE, and VERY EXPENSIVE. This was before many people started remodeling kitchens, and now, I am sure that many have been redone in both groups, and high end everything is expected in both neighborhoods. Bigger is not necessarily better...just bigger! (We bought the smallest, which is plenty big now that the kids are on their own).

In my heart of hearts, though, I love the look of old houses, though I've never lived in one. But as rubyfig said, it is what goes on inside that is important.

The people that frequent GW Kitchens forum are researchers who look far and wide for the perfect faucet, sink, range etc. The internet has made this possible.

If you are not internet savvy (or just don't like searching endlessly), do not have a big box store or design center nearby, or don't have access to tons of design magazines--You Wouldnt know what options are available.

When my parents designed their kitchen 40+ years ago, they drove 2 hours each way to get something that was not the ONLY option available in our small town: two major builders whose interior fixtures and finishes were all identical in every house they built (and every house was "custom").

Anything that has been replaced since has been on the advice of a local plumber (whatever kitchen faucet he had on the truck--and its a cheap horrible faucet), and whatever fridge fit in the slot that the local appliance store had...coupled with the fact that my mother in particular seems to think a faucet you spent 50 bucks on in 1969 should cost $50 now, not $500.

So they were told what was available and they took the advice. For them it WAS what was available.

I recently did a kitchen for a client who moved, but I had done some interior design work for her when she lived in her old place. When I saw the kitchen...I said Wow! this kitchen has held up well!. She said "Huh?" and I said "For a kitchen that was put in in 1980 or so it looks great!"

She said: "But I put in new cabinets and countertops and floor in 1997!"

She hired a kitchen fabricator from her church bulletin who came and measured and semi-custom fabricated her cabinets and countertops: He gave her an option of two door styles, two wood species and one finish(natural). Same with hardware, same with laminate...she didnt even really know what Corian was. So, she got the same kitchen more or less that anybody who hired him got. And he happened to be in a time warp. He is probably still installing the same kitchen.

When we did her new kitchen in 2006-7 she was shocked, (and overwhelmed) by all the options. People who are not design junkies really have very little idea of whats out there. (And before the internet had no real way of finding it either, unless they had a good designer or builder)

Yeah, I don't think most people here realize how totally unaware the average person is about all this stuff. To my neighbors Kitchen Aid is upscale. They'd be scandalized at the idea that Kenmore isn't made in a special Sears factory someplace. Granite is a wanton extravagance (they're actually paying far more for their speckled corian, but the only granite price they ever saw was in HD). Cabinets come from Lowes or HD. They're all very annoyed that you can't get Mills Pride Nova style cabs (the awful high gloss white arch ones) anymore.

I could have a kitchen ten times as nice as theirs for less than they spend on average, but I also know they'll think it's pretty weird. Heck, I was in HD the other day looking to see which induction brands they carry, and the appliance guy there told me that the only reason you'd actually buy one is if you're pretentious.

erikanh, so sorry for you and your daughter.

This subject has come up many times here.

Basically, when you do a remodel, there are certain components available to buy at the time. In the colors of the day, styles of the day, technology of the day.

Our remodeled kitchens will one day be out-dated, just as the 50s, 60s, 70s kitchens are dated today.

I'm looking at homes now - in my area they are post-war mid-century moderns, many embellished to look like cottages, cape cods, ranch styles, etc. Bland enough to take on any style really.

This has gone totally off topic now, but I'm glad to have you all back me up on the general state of houses in PA here! :)

Have to admit I was rather dismayed to see how much nicer the average house 'appears' to look in other parts of the country (at least from what I can see on the MLS). I honestly have no idea WHY no one seems interested in this here?!

Speaking of people thinking KA and corian is top of the line reminds me of the funniest question I got, not once but TWICE, when friends and family first came over to inspect my new kitchen.

Looking at my hood, "Does it really work?"

.....!