You didn't mention weather or not having children or a partner is in your future. If so, I would reconsider. But that said, my 24" oven has been fine for my family of 3 for the last two years. It has stopped me from doing the kind of freezer cooking I'd like to do, and at holiday time it's frustrating, but on a daily basis, it's not been such a bad thing. Now if I were back in the day of having 5 kids at home, I'd want something larger.
That said, I will be updating to a 30" range. I would at least get the 27". And there is resale to consider. What size oven do you have now?

>It has stopped me from doing the kind of freezer cooking I'd like to do

Curious about this, southernstitcher. Can you explain?

I asked the same question and ended up with a $1500 Bosch convection oven purchased at Sears outlet for less than half the original price. It looks great, holds the set temp, and turns out consistent baked goods and roasts better than the standard GE I had before. I also upgraded from 27" to 30" because it seems 27" have a limited selection. It has fast preheat and seems really efficient, so I don't mind using it to cook a small meal.

If you don't do a lot of serious cooking, you probably don't need the really high end oven unless you are considering selling and are in a neighborhood where this would be expected.

What you get mostly are things like reliable oven temperature, though some better technology has probably trickled down to less expensive models. Additionally, if you're not really a serious cook, the Miele, for instance, has the whole Master Cook program, where you choose what you want to make rather than managing all the settings manually. People who use that like it a lot. There are also features like temperature probes that actually work, and true convection that allows you to evenly cook lots of things at once.

It's quite possible that a top quality oven could save you time and effort.

On the other hand, if you can cook, you can cook in anything, and if you don't intend to use the oven much, it might be overkill to invest more of your budget there.

Do check the appliance forum for more info about ovens.

emily - are you me? my twin?

i think the same thing! i seldom use the oven maybe twice a wk - to make garlic toast or cook a frozen pizza bread...
chicken a few times a yr...(pieces, not a whole one anymore)

if i could find a decent 24" stove in bisque I'd get that - with a glass door. but they don't seem to exist.

I certainly don't need 4 burners either!

to me, it's a waste of money and space. space is very important in a small kitchen. even if you mostly eat salads, frozen dinners and your sister's leftovers...

my current counter top oven is about 13" wide. plenty wide for me.

I'm reserving the option to make a quick switch to an under counter oven and a 2 burner cooktop if i can find a good sale when I'm closer to my redo.

I'd rather a wall oven for hght and my back tho. but that's too much money to put in the wall cab to go with it.

Emily, I also resonate with what you're saying. I just want something simple and reliable that looks good and is easy to clean -- though that doesn't necessarily mean self clean. And with me and just DH in the nest now, we do not need 30". (Actually we never needed it) I am bewildered by the choices. My intution is that the middle tier -- half way between $1 and $3K --provide the best value, but which? Looking at KA, Bosch, Electrolux.

writersblock, I used to cook lots of dishes on the weekend to freeze for the following week/month. That process is slowed down greatly by a too small oven.

I'm not advocating oversized ovens here, but I want to point out to any who haven't looked at the newer models, that the cavity size for ovens has gotten smaller. My old 24" oven would accept my roaster, maybe a bit on the diagonal (hated the oven so blocked it out!). It doesn't fit in an new 24" oven.

Part of the difference is insulation and other construction. The other part is that if there's convection there has to be room for the fan works, etc.

That's where the 27" ovens came in. Then they decided to standardize ovens at 30". And they still make 24" ovens to fit into old cabinets, but they're smaller inside.

That might be just the right size for those of you who don't have much use for an oven. Just be sure the inside size will work for you should you actually want to use it. (There is some reason to put a basic small range or oven and cooktop in just in case you ever have to sell all unexpectedly.)

Ah, thanks, southernstitcher.

emily mb: you sound a lot like me. I haven't gotten it yet but I'm going with the reg Electrolux 30" convection oven (it's bigger inside than the Icon). I probably don't need that big but I only have one oven. As others have said, there's more to choose from with 30" and the convection ovens have less room inside than others.

But the workhorse oven in my house is my countertop Panasonic NN-C9945 microwave/convection oven that I bought for under $550 from buy.com. It's a microwave and a convection oven in one. My Sharp died recently and I just got the Panasonic but I've had one of these ovens for 18 years and wouldn't give it up. I love, love, love the combination cook mode that bakes and microwaves together. You have to use glass pans for that but it cuts down the baking time by about a third, still browns the food and you don't have to stop and stir/rearrange the food every few minutes. I usually preheat it to the baking temp while I'm preparing things and then switch to combination cook when I put the food in. It will fit a 9x13 pan in bake mode but the 15" carousel has to turn in any of the microwave modes (including combination) so a 13x9 glass pan with any lip may not fit. Unless I'm baking cookies or cakes or a major meal using several racks, that oven gets the job done faster and saves energy by not heating up the 30" oven.

emily_mb, you might be interested in this thread from the appliances forum (although it's more about cooktops/stoves, but it explores some of the same issues being discussed here):

Here is a link that might be useful: how many cooking zones?

I'm not sure my comments are useful because I bought a two oven wall setup. I got the Advantium oven and it's just about my most favorite purchase ever. I'm a completely lazy cook. Love to cook but hate to do it as a daily chore. The oven overall is amazing. I bought the 220v and it does so much that we hardly ever use the Monogram convection oven we bought to go with it. Speedcook has almost 200 presets that help it get just the right combination of halogen, microwave, and convection. French fries come out perfect in 4 minutes. Crescent roles perfectly brown in about the same time. Tonight we made fantastic Yukon Gold baked potatoes in 8, better than the 60 minute ones cooked in the oven. Meat, pizza, just about anything comes out great. And my husband can do it with no problem. It also works as a microwave, a regular oven, and a convection oven. It's so terrific and really well worth saving for. I liked the Trivection wall oven too but decided not to spring the extra $600 for it since everyone told me I'd hardly use the regular oven with the Advantium.

The store had both the Advantium and a much cheaper Electrolux speedcook. I went and spent an hour trying them both. In the end, the user interface of the Advantium was so much better and easier to use that I decided to go for it. Haven't regretted it for a second. I saved money on the convection oven, fridge, cooktop and microwave to be able to afford it.

Britt

I bought AEG (european electrolux basically) 24" ovens. I got two single ovens, one regular and one steam and then stacked them in a wall unit. I cook a ton and have a lot of cookbooks but I would consider myself a "good" cook rather than one who needed anything special so when I was looking at ovens I was looking at different items from many others and there were some passive? items that you get buying upper end(ish) that haven't been mentioned yet.

The ovens I picked are highly efficient. It's not possible to get efficiency information on many of the US appliances but in europe many (possibly all?) appliances are rated for energy usage. Self Cleaning ovens, even if you don't use the function, have higher amounts of insulation than a normal oven which adds to the efficiency even though they can cost more.

Most european manufacturers and some of the higher end american manufacturers have specialty construction items such as more panes of glass in the door. For instance, most US have two panes of glass, most euro have 3 panes of glass and several high end euro have 4 panes of glass. Mine has the four option. This means that even baking at 400 degrees it is not obvious that the oven is when touching the outside. It is not cold to the touch anymore but approximately room temp. Mine incorporates the 4 panes of glass plus a cooling fan that stabalizes the temperature of the door. That was important to me. Not only is it good for efficiency but I don't like to worry about touch the hot door.

I HATE the clock that is on every oven and range. It's a silly thing but a huge pet peeve of mine. I can turn mine off so that it no longer shows! I love that! Not only is it not wasting energy but I don't have a glowing light at the edge of my peripheral vision all the time.

Oh, and last but not least, my ovens came with correctly sized cookie sheets and etc so that I get the maximum space out of a small area. For me, that's pretty priceless.

So there are a couple of things that are not cooking related that I still am glad I paid extra for. It's not necessarily the difference between 1k and 3k but they were more than the standard for sure.

Thank you, thank you, to one and all! It will take me a while to digest all the information and meanwhile it is good to know that there are some kindred spirits out there.

In reference to the lifestyle questions, the answer is that I have a DH and two grown children. So it's 2 of us regularly, 3 once a week, and 4 when the college son is home during vacations. I am too energy conscious to turn on the oven for a chicken breast, and my Sunday cooking has to be as quick as weekday's because the great outdoors beckons very convincingly.

Having said all that, the Thanksgiving turkey for 10 to 12 is SO IMPORTANT that I'll buy whatever size I need for it. From the above, I'm doubting if an 18 lb. turkey fits in a 24"

Again, thanks!

Oh yes it does. I've had a 24" oven for the past 12 years, until last year's upgrade to a 27" one.

Brits cook turkey for Christmas dinner. Along with all the trimmings, roast potatoes, etc. But very very few people have an oven larger than 24". In fact, my mother's is only 21" and she manages fine!

Good questions, emily_mb, so glad you asked! I'm going with a 30" from a 27" after some deliberation. It's the standard size now so there are more choices and I figured it's the smarter choice when it comes to resale. However, I'm also energy conscious so I want a second oven - Advantium, speed cook, convection/MW - to serve as my primary oven since most of the time I won't need all the space of a 30" oven.

mdod, where did you place your convection/MW? I checked installation specs and was amazed that the Panansonic needed 6" clearance above and 3" clearance on each side. The Sharp convection/MW had instructions to not place it above a heat source like an oven (at least I think it was the Sharp oven). I was all set to go this route but I was stopped short by these requirements. I want to put it in a cabinet above my 30" convection oven but I'm not sure I can do that now.

brittu, thanks for sharing your positive Advantium experience. I'll have to take another look at these ovens.

morgne, thanks for sharing that efficiency information. I wish US ovens were rated, too.

Really. Here's a cottage (there used to be lots of these up and down the beach when I was a wee tiny child) that's been sort of restored (I question a lot of what they did, and it's lost its original pecky cypress interior) to its 1930s condition. Look at that stove! Do you think they didn't cook turkeys for families back then?

I remember our kitchen when I was a kid, which had been one of those modern 60s kitchens with woodgrain formica slab cabs, aqua appliances and that charming old formica with tiny aqua futuristic stars on it. The cavity of mom's wall oven wasn't a bit bigger than some of the 24" ones out there now (although some are too small, for sure--it depends on the model you get)

Here is a link that might be useful:

I put a 23 lb turkey in my 27" oven. I'd planned on building the new oven cabinet to house a future 30" upgrade, but when the heck am I going to bake anything bigger than a 23 lb. turkey?

It's a small kitchen, so 3" is more useful elsewhere. Convection is a nice feature my next oven will have, but I can bake a sheet of cookies without rotating them so I'm not really missing it. Other functions I have had and not used. Good temperature control is worthwhile, but my entry model GE has that. I'll have a hard time justifying an expensive oven when the time comes--I did for my last kitchen and it was a waste.

I cooked a 22-pound turkey in my 18" oven. Indeedy, it can be done. I think folks can tend to overstate the limitations of smaller ovens and underestimate how smaller ovens offer very even roasting temperatures & great efficiency. This baby browns bread and quiche more evenly than any oven I've ever had. :-)

I think it's also true that the amounts of the food we are eating have been getting larger for years. When my mom made brownies it was the 10x10 dish... but now the "family size" box is the one that goes in that goes in the big casserole dish.

My grandmother made a turkey for T-day but it was a small one, effectively making it a side dish to go with all the other side dishes.... and it was gone at the end of the day. My mom does a big bird.. and potatoes, and yams, and pies, and ... you get the idea. And there's huge amounts of leftovers. Me? I cook a small bird and a few dishes. Then if I want "leftovers" of turkey I just cook another small turkey later in the week.

There are tons of articles on this but I'm attaching one that talks about how differen our foods are, particularly turkeys, from our grandparents turkeys. It shows average turkey size in the 1930's at 13ish lbs... but we are well over twice that now.

Here is a link that might be useful: History of Turkey Fattening

Great points! And, with a small oven, I don't have to feel guilty about running the oven again a few days later for "leftover" turkey (that will taste better than if it truly were left over).

I am thinking I will plan for one "small" micro/ convection/ regular oven and an induction cooktop with a wok burner. I JUST DISCOVERED THEIR EXISTENCE FROM ANOTHER THREAD!!! (I have learned so much from this forum!)

The interior of ovens must have gotten smaller. The 27" GE that I recently replaced was installed new in 1991. A standard cookie sheet would only fit in sideways which limited the flow of heat in the oven. A smallish roaster pan almost touched the sides which caused uneven browning. Shortly after installing the 30" Bosch, I had two roasting pans in at the same time with room to spare. Everything turns out much more consistently now.

If you do go with a convection oven, check the outside measurements front to back and check the required air space. Some of the older 24" deep cabinets may need to be modified. We had to remove drywall at the back to get the room needed.

A $3K oven impresses the neighbors more than the $1K oven does!!!

Seriously, my Gagg is much more sturdy and feels better made than my mother's GE Profile, but functionally I can't tell any difference other than the time it takes each oven to warm up.

I have the GE Profile Trivection double ovens. After I ordered it, I wondered if I had made a mistake. There is just my husband and myself. We had to pay to put in the 220, pay for the double cabinet and then about $3500 for the ovens. Just Love it!!! Made fabulous fresh blue berry muffins in the oven today and cooked some frozen taco's in 4 min, in the speedcook mode for lunch. After using a gas oven for the past 45 years I can see a difference in the electric oven.

Morgne, so, true. I wanted a 9 lb turkey for last thanksgiving (only three of us) and I had to special order it, because the store didn't plan on anything less than 12 lbs (they kept trying to persuade me into a chicken or goose instead). I too remember the 8 in square pan of brownies, and my old bread pans sure look awfully petite these days. :)

"That might be just the right size for those of you who don't have much use for an oven. Just be sure the inside size will work for you should you actually want to use it. (There is some reason to put a basic small range or oven and cooktop in just in case you ever have to sell all unexpectedly.)"

I think an important thing pointed out here is the change in our eating. I don't think I've ever made a turkey bigger than 15 lbs - for a family of 6 and some others. maybe 10-12 total. there was always enough even for some leftovers (I don't want it if more than a day old anyway). we had so many other dishes to eat!

I always managed to get a small roaster pan into my very small oven yrs ago. it wasn't even 24" wide. I could fit a 9x13 pan in it with little space left. that's what I used while raising my family.

now I have a separate roaster/baking pan - ? electric that I can put out in the laundry room on the dryer top if needed.

so it comes down to what your needs are and how much you can (or are willing) to spend on it.

I'm cheap and cooking isn't a priority to me. not something I want to spend a lot of money on.

now body sprays for the shower - that's worth spending money on to me - lol!

mdod - is that a c994 S on your panasonic intead of a 5?

I looked it up and only find the 994S

for the price I thought it worth checking as i will be needing a new mw this next yr or so. my cheapies only seem to last 1 or 2 yrs!

when using convection only, can you use metal pans?

Just curious: Have any of you who don't want an oven heard of a "wonder pot"? It's a ring pan with a solid top you put over a flue on a gas ring. The heat reflects off the top and bakes the contents. Cookies (bar style), casseroles, or whatever else you can fit in the ring. Even a chicken, artfully cut up. That was my oven for a year. One can be very creative with it. Can't feed more than half a dozen people, but it works. :)

Desertsteph, all I'm advocating in the posts above is not making assumptions based on exterior dimensions. And that if there's a governing body with a building code you probably need some kind of oven to pass inspection. Otherwise, I'm all for doing whatever suits you. The only thing my brother ever puts in an oven is chocolate chip cookies, but even he cares that the oven is big enough for his favorite pans. :)

I've never heard of a 'wonder pot'!

i got my CofO here w/o a stove so I'm probably ok. my new place has a stove in it now which I'll keep until I redo the kitchen. I'll call and ask about code tho. it could have changed.

I've had a small counter top oven for a number of yrs now (it was convection but that part died after about a yr). it was generic. the oven/broiler still work.

one of those mw/convection ones might be ok for me - combine the oven and mw. they sound like all the oven I'd really ever need and will conserve on space. I wouldn't mind paying a bit more for that!

i've been reading reviews on them and they sound like they bake very nicely. I might even be tempted to make up some zucchini bread! haven't done that in about 20 yrs!

and cookies!

Sorry, for the delay, this forum moves so fast I can't keep up with my own threads, let alone someone else's!

lisa a: On the wall with the garage behind it, I bumped out the area between the base cabinets and wall cabinets 12" so I can put appliances back there. I have the Panasonic convection/MW oven there. I didn't even know about the clearance issue until you mentioned it. It has enough on the sides but not only a couple of inches on top. This is my first Panasonic and it's only a month or two old. I had a GE and then a Sharp over the past 18 years and neither of them seemed to be bothered by overheating but I don't usually have anything heating in there much more than 30 min at a time though.

desertsteph: Yes, it's a NN-C994S and yes, you can use metal pans on regular convection, just not in microwave or combo cook.

I checked when it was preheating and I didn't see the writing on the turntable change position in the plain convection mode but when I stuck a pan in there it did turn. So if I wanted to bake something in a 13x9 pan with a lip that won't fit when it turns, I'd just take out the turntable and place the metal directly on the oven floor so it stays still. In any microwave function you need it to turn.

Thanks, mdod!

I'm heading to the local appliance store this week. Have GOT to make some decisions so that our cabinet makers can finish the design and we can get going on this remodel.

thx for the info on the panasonic - I'm going to put it on my list to check out at the appl store when I go there.

that might be the better way for me to go w/ a 2 burner cook top. the oven would be plenty big enough for me and then I'd only have 1 'oven' instead of 2 (reg and mw) taking up space.

Such great feedback! Considering my cooking style and that I want to open up the kitchen (10x10) to the DR and possibly to the study, my latest thoughts are to get an induction cooktop with 2 burners plus 1 wok and a "small" mw/convection/speed oven. (To select the oven, I'll measure a turkey on the roaster and measure the inside of the oven.) Add to that a small toaster oven in an appliance garage and I should be set. If anyone has thoughts or pictures on a kitchen that is open to another room but can also be closed, please let me know. Thanks

Update on the Panasonic Convection/MW: I cooked stuffed peppers last night and decided to preheat the oven. I combo cooked for 25 min total but it took a little longer to get everything put together so it was preheating for a while before that. When my daughter got something out of the cabinet above she commented that it was warm and it definitely was. I got out the manual (which has a picture of the oven on a counter below wall cabinets) and under placement of oven it says "3" clearance on each side and 1" on top, do not block air vents, do not place near a hot, damp, surface such as a gas or electric range or dishwasher, do not operate when room humidity is excessive."

Also, I couldn't find it on display anywhere when I was looking. They have it online at Sears and Best Buy but not in the stores and none of the 4 appliances stores that I went to had one either. I ended up buying it sight unseen at Buy.com . So far I like it better than the Sharp.

Hope that helps!

attention. I did notice the cabinet being warm on occasion but never checked during or right after cooking. I cooked the stuffed peppers for 25 minutes total but it took me longer than expected to get everything put together so it was preheating for a while. I know that doesn't help much but I thought I'd throw that in. Also, FWIW, when I took down the wallpaper in the kitchen several weeks ago, the paper behind that oven had come away from the wall.

I read about the Panasonic here on Gardenweb. It seems stupid to have a countertop oven that size that nees 6" clearance above it
month, teh paper beThere's about