Good looking layout!
Is there a reason that the dishwasher is not next to the sink? I always thought it's easiest if it's right there so you can rinse and load.
If dishes are on the island which way do the drawers open? Towards the prep area? You'd have a problem of getting dishes competing with prep - but that maybe not a problem if you plate meals before serving (I don't know your meal style :)
I have no idea if this is done, but maybe for the island you can have the drawers open straight towards the foyer - is that what you meant? That will give you a 30" set of drawers on that end for dishes etc. And then you can have other drawers facing the range with pots and pans etc.
Is trash under the sink?

Sorry I asked more questions instead of providing solutions :)

I know you said its not to scale, but if your range and or your wall oven is across from your island, 38" seems pretty tight. What sort of doors on the range? two smaller ovens with doors that dont project as far when open (Like some of the GE Cafe ranges) might still work. But I think a standard one door oven may protrude to much when open for easy maneuvering around the oven. Or is it a cooktop and not a range?

I went from 37" clearance to 43" clearance between an island and a dishwasher, it makes a huge difference! I also increased my clearance in front of my range. At first it seemed like extra steps, but I'm used to it now and appreciate the space.

I know 38'' is on the tight side. However, I can position the island so that it clears the range door (meaning it starts to right of the range, if facing the range), and there's nothing in front of the range door. Good point.

The wall oven, then I'll have to position it so that it is higher than the island surface.

Intriguing idea to have the dish drawers in the island open toward the kitchen foyer and table. And convenient (to get another dish while sitting at the table). Hmm.

OR the island can get skinnier but not by much.

Is the 38" cabinet to cabinet, or counter to counter? You'll have counter overhang of around an inch all around.

Better to have the DW next to the sink, and put a drawer stack where you show the DW. The extra 6" goes to the other side of the sink, either between sink and range, or on the other side of the range. 48" is too big for a singe drawer; the most efficient way to divide up your base cabinets around the range depends on how much stuff you have, and where you want to put it.

Consider a 12" set of shelves or cabinets facing the table, instead of opening toward the kitchen (so it's 24" wide, but 12" deep).

Annkh - I figured 26'' deep for the banks, which should be counter to counter (24'' cabinet depth plus overhang).

Fwiw. I would prefer to have my range/cooktop protected from traffic as much as possible. I don't want to have everyone walk by--to go get a dish or flatware or a glass, or go to the sink to wash hands, or toss something in the garbage etc--while I am prepping or while things are on the stove top. Also, I make a mess when I cook and clean up after we eat so I would want to shift the prep/cooktop mess to the other side away from my pretty table.

1 sided kitchen, I would do a modification of the plan by lavender_lass (My Page) on Fri, Jun 20, 14 at 1:02. Extend the short wall of the L and put the cooktop/range next to the wall oven on the short wall. So 24" (perp cab), 3" fill, 30" cooktop/drawers or range, 15" drawer stack/tray cab (or 18" depending on the extent you lengthen the wall and size of oven) , 33" or 30" wall oven stack (depends on 30" or 27" wall oven)....

Or if doing 2 sided kitchen, I would not have a short wall of cabs. I would put the cooktop/range on foyer side of the long wall (across from frig) and put the dw and sink on the table side of the long wall.

Jennifer - thank you. I thought of this and I agree that protecting the cooking space from traffic is a good thing, however: putting the range toward the foyer means someone getting food from the range to the table (me!) would have to travel a lot further (along the cabinet run, along the sink) to get to the table. Do you not think it is desirable to have the place of cooking food as close as possible to the place of consuming food? :)

I think that you need to measure some distances in your current kitchen and then look at what the same distance would be with this plan.

To me the frig and sink seem far away from the table. For the next few days, walk this new distance every time you do something in your current kitchen. Where are the dishes going? There doesn't appear to be much storage near the DW. Will you be carrying the dishes somewhere to put them away and then another distance to the table?

Think of cooking in the kitchen. Make the trip to the fridge, back to where your cooking tools are, to the range, to the oven, etc. It seems like a lot of walking. Picture feeding breakfast to your family. What paths will you be taking?

It seems to me that there may be a more functional layout.

I agree w rnmomof2. I did a lot of mock ups and tried living in the space with different options. It helped a lot. It's really important to get a feel for space and how your family functions, including how that will change as everyone ages.

Every family functions differently. Some folks plate food then bring it to the table, others serve family style at the table, and others don't sit at a table!
That's why I try to explain why I would make certain decisions, so posters can say, "what? We don't do that. No, way!"

Even at 5 yo my DS is expected to help set the table, and help bring food to the table, and clear his plate etc. Though these are mostly just expectations now, time goes so very quickly and mom will not always be the doer of all things. At least that's my plan /hope! ;)

Well, another evening of reiteration! The new layout is posted in form of chicken scratching, NOT TO SCALE.

Lenzai - my DH loved your idea of symmetrical opening into the kitchen.

Jennifer - very good point on the importance of cooking in peace without foot traffic around you.

So, the new layout. We eliminated the short wall and shortened the overall length of kitchen from 236 to 210 inches, which is fine. Now, when one enters the foyer, one will see an uninterrupted vista of the island leading to the booth and window. Very nice. Thank you for the idea.

We opt not to move the great room entrance because of the extra work.

On the left wall, in this order: frig, pantry+bookcase, wall oven/mw combo.

On the right wall: 15'' pullout, 30'' range, 48'' of drawer stacks with prep on top, 36'' sink, 24'' dw, 24'' drawer.

The island length will need to be sorted out but the important thing is that it should be positioned past the doors of both fridge, range, oven and dishwasher, so that not a single appliance opens into the island.

Advantages of this setup:
- nice visual from the foyer
- range is protected from traffic
- can open appliance doors without running into anything
- can unload groceries close to the entry door
- sink is closer to table
- fridge is close to cooking area. I don't care about the fridge being close to the table as we rarely get anything from the table when we're eating
- I am not sure the sink has to be open to anyone other than the person cooking or cleaning. We don't wash hands in the kitchen sink. Anyone wanting a glass of water can get it from the fridge.

Issues:

- need to think about optimal place to store dishes close to the dishwasher and table
- it would be nifty to have some dish storage close to the fridge, too. Right now someone wanting a glass of something from the fridge would need to travel to get the glass. Which is fine if it has to be, but if it doesn't...
- need to figure out optimal placement of trash. Natural place is under the sink, but that means some traffic in the cooking aisle. As a compromise, I can put an additional small trash can for paper waste etc. in the 15'' pullout on the right of the range - so that someone wanting to toss someone unrelated to cooking or prepping doesn't bother the cook. On the other hand, it IS close to the range anyway.

In addition, I will ask the designer to see if we can steal about 5'' from the adjacent bedrooms so the aisle clearances can be 40" instead of 38''.

Lisa, thanks so much, great ideas.

However, the reality is interfering - we cannot bump out the entire wall. My zoning authority allows for only 10-ft bay windows and we are already at the minimum allowed setback at the point of the wall. The with of the booth is all that we can bump out.

I take your point about windows; we are planning to extend the windows to span the entire width of the booth. This needs structural engineer approval, so the drawing doesn't show that yet. With the 8 ft window, I think we'll be all set on the light.

Also, I don't want to do any upper cabinets at all, just something I decided I won't do. I want to do an entire wall of Moroccan-style tiles as a statement backsplash so need the space (like my second inspiration picture).

I

Okay - I went back to your original vision for your kitchen and tweaked it to function well and still give you the open feel you want. I have a large sink in my island with no regrets. I like to do most of my work facing the open room. I have prep space beside my stove, but usually use the island because working at the perimeter keeps my back to the room, making me feel isolated. Also if you have a little one you'll actually be able to watch them while you work, both prep and cleanup - mine just turned 5.

I have the DW in the island for several reasons. The first is that it allows you to have equally spaced wide drawers beside the stovetop - looks good. It also allows you to have the DW and dish drawer open @ the same time. Just take the dishes out and put in the drawer without even taking a step. It also allows people to help with clean up without getting in the way. The space it adds to the left of the sink is a great landing area for items from the fridge and pantry.

I added the full height shallow 15" pantry within easy reach of the island and fridge. You come in and easily put away the groceries. You may be able to put a small MW in this space as well. Plan a space for heavy small appliances you don't want to try to fish out of a drawer. The mixer comes to mind.

The island doesn't need to be that long, but I would maximize the work area. I have a 4'x8' island and it feels nice to work at. I do have seating for 1 across from the prep zone. I put it in for myself because I get tired of standing all the time while prepping foods that take a while. However, I usually have a little person with their butt firmly planted there chatting while I work :). I think your little person would be happy at the table as you'd be facing them while you work. You could also reduce the width to 36" and add a bank of shallow 12" pantry/bookshelves to the far wall. However I prefer it the way it is due to the symmetry with the window and table.

I would also recommend a full size fridge recessed into the closet area a bit. I have a 36" counter depth fridge and have not been able to give up the old fridge. It goes into the basement (I may stack my laundry to make room in my pantry/laundry room). There just never seems to be enough room for me, but I admit we drink a lot of milk at my house and I like to cook in large batches so I can have some meals frozen for times I don't want to cook. The term counter depth is also misleading as the fridge doors (several inches + door handles) still sticks out past the cabinets. I put it in that location because the one thing people are always coming to do while you are cooking is to get a drink. They can access the fridge and cups without coming near you, the stove or the oven.

Here is a link to ayerg73's kitchen that I find inspiring. You can see how the long island really works here.

I hope you like it :)

Here is a link that might be useful: ayerg73 Kitchen

Wow, so many interesting ideas!

Here's one more...hope these help :) {{gwi:1910163}}From Kitchen plans

Hi Cam! Thanks! Will take a look.

Just a note that I see the inspiration kitchen you posted does have upper. I don't want them. No upper cabinets, no shelves, nothing but the backsplash.

Also, if you take a look at our layout, our kitchen is not open to the great room at all (except two doorways). So unless someone chooses to hang out in the kitchen while I work, I won't be able to watch anyone in the great room (and I don't want to.) I prefer kitchens separated from living spaces.

Have you ever given skylights a thought? They would really brighten it all up. If I had to choose between pendants or skylights - I'd go with the skylights. Also add plenty of led pot-lights on dimmers and you're golden. The pendants would interrupt the view to the banquet and window area anyway.

The other idea to keep it light and open is to have the cabinets beside the banquet have glass on the sides as well as the front.

We have skylights in the foyer and may add some over the island. Great idea on the glass cabs!

Separate is good - I even have a door on my kitchen - and I shut it too! I just can't stand the dog around while I cook. As for the person wanting to hang out while you cook - I was thinking about your 4 yr old. My girl likes to hang out and colour while I cook. In the future I'm sure some homework will go on in the kitchen as well.

The inspiration pic was just to show how functional a long island galley style kitchen could work with the sink on the island. The shelves I put on the layout are optional (I personally put everything behind glass in my kitchen). So just remove the shelves and you have a nice open 9" wall. I also think that if you put cabinets or appliances on the left wall you won't get the feel from the banquet you want.

Nadya, do you have a KD you are working with? I like the last plan you drew out but have a few thoughts. What about closing in the opening and making an archway or something similar to fit your home? It could still be centered on the table , framing it a little bit more. Maybe you are much neater than me, but I wouldn't want my kitchen that open to the entry way! ;-)

I think perhaps the drawer units need changed to 36 inch each. I though people had said on here, that the weight limits on the drawers was only 50-75 pounds including the drawer weight. So on a 4 foot drawer, you can store Kleenex in it to not be over the weight limit! Can anybody verify this? Seems like some one had the cabinet fall apart because the weight was too much, etc... Or perhaps rearrange for 30 inch drawers? My kitchen unfortunately is pre-drawers for dishes so I can't help.

I didn't mean 48'' drawer stack, I meant 48'' worth of drawers :) Maybe a 30'' and a 18'', that sort of thing.

I do have a KD but it's a long story and I don't have confidence in her kitchen judgment. She is a friend of the family though, and I have no choice. So I am using her to draw the plans for the rest of the addition, and making up my own kitchen space. She is basically just telling me how wide and how long the kitchen will be, and minding the structural stuff.

Now you ladies up and did it, I am torn. I thought I drew and absolutely perfect plan with two kitchen walls,, symmetrical openings and a skinny island, and DH loved it. Which means a lot. But I was iffy on the skimpy aisle clearances and on the travel between the frig and the dishes.

And now Cam drew something even perfecter, and I like it. I like the proximity of all major work stations. I have to think about whether I can accept an island with anything on it (I have a prejudice against islands with stuff on it...I always thought of an island as a glorious uninterrupted slab of workspace).

When your little one colors or does homework on the island with a sink, does it tend to get all wet? That's my fear.

This post was edited by nadya1972 on Sun, Jun 22, 14 at 16:16

Here's my island (4' x 8'). As you can see I'm partial to the layout I provided :). It works well because the sink is really large (Interior dimensions: 27-Inch x 15-Inch
Basin depth: 8-Inch). You can have dirty things from prep stacked in it and still have room to fill a pot or wash some veggies. There is about a foot of space between the sink and the edge of her work zone. I've never had a problem with water getting everywhere. I also have garbage and compost in touch open drawers under the sink (love, love, love this!). I can even keep my little motion activated soap dispenser in there. I can wash my hands without having to touch anything (my water easily turns on with a clean wrist so I didn't bother with a tapmaster as originally planned). I do have a garbage in a spot outside my prep zone too though.

As you can see from the picture I have a good expanse of prep area on the island and a second cook can work either at the end of the island (more social) or at the perimeter beside the cooktop.

Thank you for the pic - really helpful. You know, I think I like your suggestions most of all. I have asked the KD to redraw based on the sketch and will post here when she's done. Except I think I want to get rid of the short L side (where the pantry is), and incorporate the pantry on the long run of cabinets/appliances. I am going to minimize the closet next door so we have more space to play with, and probably won't use a 36'' range (so the centering can be iffy). But I really think this should work. My KD will hate me but so what!

Like this:

A few considerations.
1. The fridge can't sit up against the wall (you won't be able to open it). Putting the 15" pantry to the right of the fridge solves this. (check ikeas specs - I think they do pantry's in 15" and 24" - I couldn't find an 18"). Also plan for some space for either side of the fridge for panels and air flow space. My fridge required 1/2" clearance on the sides for air circulation.
2. A 2nd pantry to the left of the oven stack to help pull the oven away from the people at the table. This creates pantry's at opposite ends, but the one by the oven can be used for non food items like the mixer, blender, extra lg pots etc. These things don't fit in drawers.
3. Are you having a range with oven or a cooktop? If it's a cooktop I'd still use a 36" base cabinet with a 30" cooktop (in the photo mine is only 30" too)
4. The DW may work well to the right of the sink as well. Dishes could be stored to the right of the cooktop/left of the fridge for easy access from both. This creates a larger prep area if the island is 8' long. If you have the DW to the left of the sink I think you need the extra foot on the island.

Hope this helps :)

Hi Cam,

thanks again! How about this - I tried to put my notes on the image.

- remove the short end of the L completely, so the kitchen is basically a one-line galley with the island. You will look straight onto the island from the entry foyer

- move the cabinet run as far as possible toward the booth, reducing the width of alcove in the adjacent bedroom, thus gaining some space

- I think I like the idea of DW to the left of the sink as it is removed from the cooking zone. If I put it to the right of the sink, it's too close to the range plus they open into each other. I tried to imagine what it would be like to have 3 ft of counter space to the right of the sink and it feels plenty.

Two points...an island looks nice in magazines, but in real life (as mentioned earlier) it can be rather messy. Are you sure you want to see it, as you walk in the front door?

Second, what are you going to do with the long wall? You'll be staring at it as you prep (no room for seating on your plan) so do you plan to have art? It seems you're leaving a lot of storage potential 'on the table' with that bare wall.

Since you like a closed off kitchen, I'm surprised you want to see it from the entry. Are you sure you don't want to take down part of that long wall and see the island from the living room? Do you have any inspiration pictures, besides the seating area?

@Lavender lass

All great points. This is what I think:

- the thing about "walking in the front door" is that my foyer has no sources of light other than the skylight (which barely gives any). Right now it looks into the glass door of the existing wall, which will be demolished. So if the future window/booth area will be closed off by the short end of the L, I will be always walking into a darkish room, and I think I will not like it.

- Definitely do not want to take down the wall into the living room.

- I can paint the long wall a fun color or put some art. I'm not concerned about staring at it - when I prep, I stare at my knife and my fingers, not the wall in front of me. Depending on what length the island ends up being, I can certainly incorporate a couple of stools in the middle a la cam's island pic. I can also hang a high shelf on that wall for cookbooks and knickknacks.

- It's all about tradeoffs. The thing about putting storage on the long wall is that if that happens, the island will have to be skinnier, and the aisles will get narrower. Do I want additional storage badly enough to put up with that?

Stools at the island, a shelf for cookbooks on the long wall, maybe a fun paint color and pictures...sounds like my type of kitchen. Perhaps a few pegs for fancy aprons? Okay, now I'm getting too vintage, right? :)

A girl after my own heart!

Since you're all into vintage, I'll let you know I have a collection of small mirrors in patinated frames and I was planning to paint the wall turquoise or light blue, and put them up - to reflect the beautiful cook (me) and the fabulous tiles :)

http://brokeandchic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/tumblr_lw3o95LMsY1qza0fjo1_500_large.jpg

This post was edited by nadya1972 on Wed, Jun 25, 14 at 14:41

I've been following this thread and I think you're going to have a gorgeous kitchen - love that nook! I also love how in the latest plan the range wall ends up being symmetric.

Just to throw in my 2 cents... I get your desire to have the kitchen more open to the foyer to get more light in there. But, I think by completely removing that wall you'd lose the sense of separation between the two spaces and when you walk in the house you'd feel like you're walking straight into the kitchen. The kitchen would feel less cozy, too. My suggestion would be to make a large cased or arched entrance to the kitchen that's centered on the booth. Looks like it could be 6 to 8 ft wide or so. You'd have to narrow the current doorway from the foyer to the family room a little, but I think you said that's possible. That corner that's open to both the foyer and kitchen looks a bit awkward, anyway (at least on paper.) Since you're planning on moving that front kitchen wall back a bit to match up with the closet, the reduction in that family room opening will be pretty minimal. You'd still see the island, too. Just a thought!

Oh, I like that idea! The cased opening would be great.

I like the turquoise wall and mirrors, too :)

All right!! Good people, thank you all for your kind contributions. Here is the latest. Note the massive improvements due to your advice! Note symmetrical drawer stacks around the range. Note reduced length of kitchen and seamless extension of the kitchen border wall to the hallway. Note the cased opening :) Note the much bigger island!

Note there are still some tweaks to be made, as noted on the image. Pantry and fridge will be flipped and pantry will be resized to 15'' to match the one by the WO. The savings of 6'' will be donated to range :) making it 36'' in width and costing much more, I'm sure :) And of course, no one is using 48'' drawers, duh. And the knee-high wall is not happening, that's just my KD pushing me to get some visual blockage of the counter from the foyer area. Not happening.

Now the only real dilemma I have is to figure out the best placement of DW in relation to the dish drawer to the R of the range. My goal is to locate them in such a manner as to make the transfer of dishes from DW to DD as painless as possible - for instance, like this: http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/badgergal/media/finished natural cherry kitchen/097_zpsf5593f1b.jpg.html?sort=2&o=46.

So I'm thinking that the only way to achieve that is to extend the island toward the foyer so that the DW, when it opens, clears the DD.

Option 2, probably, is to leave the island length as is and locate the DW on the end of the island opening toward the foyer. This will probably add a few steps to the DD trip.

Option 3 is to move the DD to the L of the range and the DW to the right of the sink. But that would place the DW squarely in the prep zone and that's a No No No.

What do you think? What am I missing?

This post was edited by nadya1972 on Tue, Jul 1, 14 at 10:04

Here's the pantry and fridge swapped and the 36" cooktop/range. Hopefully this will help with DW placement :)
{{gwi:1910164}}From Kitchen plans

Thank you! Clearly, the only way to make it work is to make the island longer by a foot and a half or so..

Why not switch clean up and prep? Put the clean up toward the table and prep toward the frig? Put the dw on the right side of the sink/booth side of the island. Move the sink down toward the booth on the island as well. Have the dish drawer to the L of the range. That puts clean up and dishes closer to table. The dw countertop can serve as dish drying/dirty dish landing.

your 36" counter/cab is down toward the frig end of the island. That's good landing prep space. No dirty dish/drying dishes. No dw in the way of frig access.

Jennifer, in that configuration (DW on the end of the island nearest the booth), DW and the dish drawer will be directly opposite one another, wouldn't they? I won't be able to open them at the same time.

I like Jennifer's idea! Just place the DD to the left of sink and that will be less intrusive in your main work area. Something like this?
{{gwi:1910165}}From Kitchen plans

Isn't 36'' quite a bit to trek with dishes? I was really hoping to get an arrangement where they are next to each other, either together or across the aise..

I actually do like Jennifer's idea, too, as it makes sense to keep dish storage and washing close to the table, and not have to walk so far. But I do think that if DW and DD are across from the aisle from each other, I won't be able to open both at the same time.

I wonder how long the island can be pushed out...what about

This post was edited by nadya1972 on Tue, Jul 1, 14 at 15:13

Crazy idea: what about putting dishes into the wall oven cabinet? IKEA has lots of options with drawers. Have to think of alternative placement for microwave.

Is DD dish storage? I thought it was a dishwasher drawer...as if not all your dirty dishes would fit into a single dishwasher.

If that's the case, then I'd have dish storage on the other side of the sink and across. Upper cabinets would really help, here :)

I didn't remember the size of your aisle from cooktop to island. Often the aisle is wide enough to accommodate both dd and dw being open opposite.

Where will glasses be stored? Coffee mugs etc? I know you preferred no uppers, but will you have sufficient everyday storage without any upper cabs flanking the cooktop/vent?

The aisles are 42 inches so I don't think both dish drawer and dishwasher can be opened at the same time.

But I do love your idea of moving the dishwasher to the right of the sink closer to the table. So I'm giving serious thought of moving the dish storage into the wall oven tower drawers.

I think I'm good on storage. I am determined not to have uppers so would rather edit storage than add uppers.

it looks great. are you doing any recessed lighting?

I like lavender lass's last sketch. Just a quick thought - since the island is 4' wide you could have the DW open on the short side of the island (toward the table). The dishes could then be located to the right of the DW opening to the table side as well.

This is what I'm thinking by way of island structure. The reason is I really want to have a look of symmetry on the side that faces the wall, which is the side that people will see. So that explains the 12'' cabinet to open toward the booth (to be symmetrical with the bookshelf side on the other end.)

The working side of the island doesn't have to be symmetrical since it's not exactly on display. I put in 24'' and 12'' cabs near the sink because I think a 36'' drawer stack is too wide to be structurally sound.

Then on the open side it's symmetrical like this: 12, 30, 24, 30, 12. Clever, no :))

This post was edited by nadya1972 on Wed, Jul 2, 14 at 11:00

I like the bookcase facing the entry! No stools, though?

Is the trash going in the 12" wide base cabinet? Is that wide enough or are you putting it under the sink?

I like the overall layout a lot. As for the island, it is clever...but it's facing the wall, so who's going to see it? Since the kitchen is not open to the great room...I'd still want some stools, so I could perch and visit with the cook :)

There is no room for stools, unfortunately, with the 42'' aisle. If I put stools in, you wouldn't be able to use that aisle. Once the thing is in, if it looks like they CAN be fitted in, we can reconsider.

The thing is, though, that to put it two stools would require 48 inches of counterspace, correct? So with the overall length of 108 inches and 24 of them already committed to end 12'' cabinets, it's 108 (total) -48 (2 stools) -24 (end cabs) =36. This means the storage on the back of the island will be cut to basically 2 18'' drawer stacks, instead of big drawers now. Big loss.

I think trash will go under the sink - would be 18'' wide. I thought I would put my cutting boards into the 12'' ft cabinet. They are all so big.

You can visit with the cook!! There's an 8-ft wide booth open for your visiting pleasure!!! :)

You guys are all so wonderful.

This post was edited by nadya1972 on Wed, Jul 2, 14 at 15:34