Marti- Have you ever thought about putting the stools on the other side and just having the doorway where it is? Different, yes...but then you'd have the view out the window, rather than the fridge...and still have access to the outside and dining room, from the living room. Something like this...
{{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans

Sorry this isn't prettier :) {{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans

But basically this idea, with two stools and no arch...just the beam straight across. And a much better view! What do you think? {{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans

Thanks LL. It looks good, but I'm afraid it wouldn't be very functional; it would be a long walk around for anyone eating there if more food or drink was needed.

You mean you won't be handing them things through the window...like a short order cook? LOL

What if you did the same idea, but move it back to the other side. Could you frame the opening on each side, like the beam above...and still have the doorway next to it, rather than completely open? I think a raised counter would be nice and give you a back to your work area.

Also, any chance you could do a range and undercounter oven? It would open up a lot more counterspace. Just an idea :) {{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans

That's supposed to say OV for the undercounter oven. I know you lose a little storage space, but you gain more access/view to the living room. It's just a trade off, for which is more important to you.

Do you mean put a post on each side of the bar? We considered that, partly because it would be easier to support the beam.

I do have an oven under the cooktop, but also have another with micro above in the tall cabinet. I thought of putting both ovens under the counter, but there's still the microwave.

Hmmm...well there are undercounter microwaves, too...but I don't know how much storage space you would lose. Or you could do the microwave/hood option. Not my first choice, but some people like it. Probably would work better with an electric cooktop, though.

I know you've been thinking about a bigger cooktop/range. What if you got something like a 36" or 42" range, with two ovens...and then put the microwave under the counter, in the bar area? Would that be a possibility? {{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans

And the microwave... {{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans

I understand it is a load bearing wall, but my in laws had a LOT of load bearing walls and put beams(granted, they are ENORMOUS beams-I saw them during construction). It opened up the entire downstairs.
So you could do 2 or 3 beams(posts)-1 by where the current walkway is, one at the far end by the laundry room wall and if more support is needed, pick a side(probably toward the laundry room) and off center it. Then you can have an island. Keep in mind I have NO idea of what this would cost vs keeping a wall.

Are they wood or steel beams bahacca? We used two 2x12s on the dining addition, but will probably use a laminated beam on this. An island really isn't possible if we keep the double ovens in the cabinet they are in now, and I'm not crazy about having a direct view of the kitchen from the front door either. I can be a real slob in the kitchen, and I'd like to keep it as my dirty little secret.

LL, that is my dream oven, but dh is really gung ho on an induction and I can't find any ranges with double oven on bottom and induction on top. I'm planning for a 36 inch cooktop/single oven below, 42 inch vent hood. I could do two side opening ovens, but I have one, and it's ok, but I don't love it. After using dd's wall oven, I've decided that a side open wall oven is the only way to go. I could hardly reach over the oven door to pull anything out.

They are steel beams, but of course they covered them up with a cylindrical style cover, plastered and painted.

Have you seen the Electrolux induction range? It has a double oven (albeit the second one is MUCH smaller than the main oven).

Here is a link that might be useful: E'lux induction range

I know a lot of people like induction...but I wouldn't want to give up all my pots and pans! In fact, I'm hoping to look for a few nice copper ones, in the near future. And, a copper bowl for whisking egg whites...but I digress :)

A wall oven is a must, IMHO, just because I love mine. My mom's range oven seems so short! LOL But the nice thing about a range is that the one lower oven is great for meats, broiling, etc...while the wall oven is wonderful for baking.

Marti- I know many of your cabinets are already done, but I don't suppose you could put the wall oven where you have the pantry? And maybe a smaller (narrower) pantry by the range? That might free up an extra foot for your seating area.

None of these would be the best choice, either from aesthetics or functionality. If you cannot take the whole wall down and create an island, then leave it alone.

However if you do take down the wall, then you need to address the entry issue and swap the intended purposes of the den and living room. You will have just taken a more formal room intended for conversation and as a getaway space from noise and introduced noise and disruption into it from linking it to the kitchen. That would mean that the better choice for the more formal quiet space would now be the den area and that the formal entry should be adjusted to come into that space rather than the now less formal and kitchen linked space.

But, there is also a traffic flow issue with the location of the formal dining room. It's only connection to the rest of the home is through the kitchen, and that's more of an informal breakfast room functionality than an actual dining room that one enters from a living area. Functionally, it would make more sense to transform it into the "den" type area, with the now living room area becoming the formal dining room and the den becoming the living room area with the entry tweaked.

chiefy, I have seen that type range, and I asked about one like it on the appliances forum one time, and read a lot of negatives about the smaller oven.

LL, you are right, I use the oven under the cooktop mainly for meats, and the wall oven mainly for baking. I thought I would like two wall ovens, but it's really hard for me to lift anything heavy from that height. The lower ovens are much easier for that.

I couldn't switch the oven unit with the pantry because it's bigger than the pantry by about 6 inches. And rewiring would be a big hassle too.

GreenDesigns, before we added the dining room, we did use the living room as the dining room. We have looked into moving the entry before. Due to the roofline, the front door can't be moved without great difficulty and expense and we don't want to rebuild the roof. I had considered changing the doorway from the foyer though so it didn't enter directly into the room. Like this

That works as long as the room is a dining room, but furniture placement if anyone ever wanted to use it as a den becomes difficult. In fact, furniture placement in this room has always been a problem with the doorways where they are. Is this the arrangement you had in mind?

We are in the middle of demo on our kitchen. We removed about 6 feet of a load bearing wall, and have a laminated lvl in place. We will have a counter height bar, with seating that is on the dining room side (not kitchen side). I am no expert in layouts, but I collected a ton of photos of kitchens with bar seating/load bearing wall issues. We also had the opinion of several architects (one paid, two family friends) and two kitchen designers. Additionally, we priced out the cost of completely removing the wall, and/or recessing the beam or replacing it with a steel beam. For our kitchen, our family, and our purposes, the LVL beam and the corresponding counter seating made the most sense. It took us a year to come to this conclusion. Constructions costs to completely remove the bearing wall were quite high... like 10-12 K JUST to handle that particular part of the project.
I don't think I answered a single question you asked, but I am in a somewhat similar situation and would be glad to share the photos I have collected.

I'll be watching this to see what ideas you get. I need to undo something similar to what you are proposing (your plan is infinitely better than what my POs came up with though). I can recommend not adding a wing to your bar to be a peninsula jutting into your living room.

I can show you how NOT to do it (premove-in photos almost show the spot but not too well I'm afraid):

Kitchen looking out

Looking into kitchen

It totally looks like a keyhole badly carved out of a wall (and then extra stuff barfing out from the kitchen). If you could put a post on the end to bust up the opening, it would be an improvement and look less like a dopey remodel. Yours can be better--I'm not saying your plan will turn out awful but it could. That L shaped opening, if it's making you think twice, good--think twice. :)

And you might have to get an integrated paneled fridge.

Marti- I like that last plan, but just the range wall. What if you did that...but connect the wall oven to the range island, with a countertop and extend the wall? Then you'd have the beams and a raised bar, but I'd make it wood...like a real bar. What do you think?
{{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans

And you could choose a focal point hood... {{gwi:1448542}}From Lavender Lass farmhouse pictures

Or something more modern... {{!gwi}}From Kitchen plans

Or one that almost disappears... {{!gwi}}From Kitchen plans

I like that, LL!

irishlaw1, I'd love to see what you learned, especially about the lam beam.

How do you think the island in my last drawing would work, with a lam beam above?

fori, I remember your pictures from a previous post, maybe when you first bought the house? What are your plans so far?

I think I'll just remodel vicariously through others so I don't have to get dirty.

Remodeling is the pits. :)

I don't know how I missed your post before LL. I like that and had considered the clear hood before. It would probably look better with our cabinets too. I just thought of another thing; we can't take down the soffit though, it has ducts and plumbing in it. I'm not sure how it would look to have a soffit with nothing attached to it.

Is your soffit where you want to have the cutout? Will that make a difference, when you're opening the wall and installing the beam? If not, it's easy enough to camouflage it...so long as it's not a structural problem.

How much space is there in the kitchen between the stove and the sink? Is that space wide enough to build a deeper island into the kitchen so less pokes into the living room? And it makes the kitchen a more efficient galley. Then you can build the island with the supports as part of the design.

I have seen islands that are flanked with built in bookcases on either side that are also hiding structural supports.

I like that Annie. I've seen other things used to disguise the posts too, or just decorative posts.

I like that middle picture! I'm saving that to my file :)

That would look great in your kitchen! Just imagine a hood overhead, if you don't want to use a downdraft.

Haha! Me too, LL! The others are a little bit much. Very FANCY. Beautiful but not my idea of what goes in a kitchen.

Fori- We seem to like the same pictures :)

I like the middle picture too. On the first picture, I like the way the base of the bar is set back into the posts and uses wood below the bar, kind of sets it apart from the rest of the sheetrocked walls. The third one is pretty, but doesn't fit our house at all.

Marti- I see what you mean about the first picture! I think that's what Annie was talking about...having the bar area even with the wall and the cabinets further into the kitchen area. Nice option :)

I had dh read this thread and he agreed with Green Designs and now doesn't want to do anything except have a wider doorway into the kitchen. Hmmmm.

Marti- We went through that too. Thought about every possible potential use of the space and got discouraged by people who insisted we needed to have an island or nothing at all. I understand the sentiment, but different things work for different people. I mentioned it took us a year to go through the layout/design phase, right? We considered everything. I am going to try to attach a copy of an ideabook from houzz where I collected some photos to help me decide what to do with the beam/bar area. I liked some of the photos and disliked others, but kept them all to help me think it through... I have some other pictures, not on houzz that I will try to attach separately.

Here is a link that might be useful: Houzz ideabook

Another "food for thought" picture.

And my final photo. Sorry for the multiple posts...

Thanks irishlaw1. That first picture is one I would call keyhole. What bothers me about that look is the bar just stopping mid wall, and my wall would be a lot bigger.

I really like the one in your houzz link by Alexander Hunt. I think the arch makes the difference there. Wish they showed the bar from the other side.

I guess this is all a moot point now since dh doesn't see the point of having a bar at all. I think it would be really convenient for serving buffet style without having everyone troup through the kitchen. Oh well.

I really like that last picture and the way they did the post.

Here's what we did in a similar situation:

{{!gwi}}
{{!gwi}}

The wall the posts are on is the original exterior of that house. We originally thought we could have one post but ended up needing two.

I like your kitchen, especially the way your bar drops down and is a table height on one side. Did you design that yourselves? Very nice!

I don't want to fight dh on this. He always has to mull things over for awhile before changing his mind on anything big, so I'm just going to leave him alone. Enlarging the doorway may be enough. I just don't want to feel locked away in the kitchen when I'm cooking.

For now, we'll enlarge the doorway and put enough sheetrock on to finish the dining room. That will give me enough time to see how much it will open things up before starting the other side of the kitchen.

If you incorporated a bookcase of sorts along the livingroom side of the wall that the 'bar' would share, you could incorporate the seating so that it looks like you wanted it, not an afterthought. In other words, treat the whole living room (or dining room) wall rather than just the opening. If you did a double arch (if it matches the rest of the house) or just a straight overhead beam, but both openings would repeat the motif. Like the following picture (perhaps overwrought for you, but you could eliminate the glass cabs and sub bookcases--or just use the columns).

Marti- Tell you DH those who cook get to determine what the opening will look like! :)

Seriously, I think you won't be happy with this remodel until you open up your kitchen (at least somewhat) to the living room. I like the cooktop open to the other space, but what you finally decide is up to you.

I know this house has never been exactly what you wanted...so don't compromise now that you're making it the home you really want. Just my two cents...

That's pretty socalsister. I really wish I had room to do that between the kitchen and new dining room.