Bump (Wish I could help but I'm not good at this.)

Bump

Jenma: Maybe more people would be willing to weigh in if you showed us YOUR ideas. Why don't you fill in this drawing with one version of what you're thinking and then have people comment. It's a little too wide open right now. Good luck.

I looked at your wall plan on flickr and here is my idea. Two parallel countertops. No "corner" cabinets. A galley kitchen. The 12'11" wall with counter height window would take your fridge, sink and range/cooktop/exhaust/hood, either left to right or right to left. Do not center the sink under the window. Base cabinets could be deep (27"), or standard size, or 21" deep. Next: a 42" aisle and a 7' (approx) by 27" counter on an island, 6'6"(approx) by 23". From the open stairs people would walk around the island to go outside instead of walking through the kitchen. Make the opening in front of the floor to ceiling window larger than the opening at the stair side which would be a tight slip-through passageway and not a significant invitation to through traffic.

Good luck jenma!

Thanks davidro1, my husband is a big fan of this idea, but it really closes off the space, only having one way into the kitchen and I think would make having multiple cooks working at once difficult. Plus it still doesn't solve the issue of making a front door out of the left side window (floor to ceiling window) because I assume that the peninsula/ bottom side of the galley would run close to that door. Plus then people seated at the island are looking into the kitchen and not at the pretty lake view. Although it does make venting significantly easier.

For others, here's my best idea: L shaped kitchen on the perimeter with a big island with seating near the new front door. The door obviously would have to be outswing to allow enough room when you enter. This IS allowed in MA, so long as it swings out onto a deck and not directly onto stairs. As far as snow goes, we have another door that will swing in on the other side of the house to get out. The closet mudroom area would become the half bath

Description

I'm still unsure of where to put the MW--rhome410 suggested at the top left near the mudroom/half bath, others suggested the MW drawer in the island and others a cabinet up high between the frig and range. I like all of them for one reason or another.

After another 3 hours with the KD at 6 square cabinets. . . Here's my tentative final design.

Some comments from top left side of image

LOWERS:
PC218424L = 18" Full height, CD pantry/broom closet for food storage/misc storage
DB18 = 18" 3 drawer base for utensils
Sink 30" undermount stainless steel single bowl
BWBT18 = 18" double trash pull out (probably for recycling only)
TB9R = 9" door cabinet to put trays/cookie sheets, etc
BSS36L = Super Susan (upper for pots/pans, lower for small appliances)
DB21 = 21" 3 drawer base for tupperware, spices, knives, etc

UPPERS from top left corner:
18" pantry
W3030MFD: glass front with mullions for dish storage

The aisle widths are from granite to granite

The Island has a 27" shelf for the microwave (regular convection, NOT Sharp drawer) with one pull out drawer under it (VSB27). . . We used a vanity base to save space and only have it 21" deep (MW is 19.5" deep so I think that leaves enough air flow space)

The Prep sink will be 15"x15" on a 18" sink base (again vanity base for 21" depth)

The end of the island will be a bookcase 12" long by 18" deep +3" filler (W1830)

The island bar (12" overhang) will be supported by corbels (MC10)

The 48" to the bottom left is a pair of 24" French patio doors that will swing in (although out swing is still an option). There will also be a door to the mudroom/half bath at the top left of the kitchen (not showed in the rendering) 36"

PLEASE I NEED YOUR COMMENTS before I put down 50% and place my order!

Here's the style of cabinets: off white with a cherry cabinet

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.flickr.com/photos/benjen/4683269843/

What's your deadline? Do I have a day or two?

Yup--hopefully looking to order within the next week so that we can them made before the July factory vacations. . .

FYI for all those looking to order cabinets: Many companies take a 2-3 week mandatory factory shut down break in July and in December.

I worked on this for awhile and I think the latest one you have is close to what I came up with...

Incorporates all your "wants": Drawers to put pots in (or lazy susan),
Place to put trays/cookie sheets/tins --> 12" in island
Prep sink if space allows --> in island
Trash pull out - in island
Seating in the kitchen for 2 --> 3 in island
Dishes to be stored as close to the DW as possible --> above DW as well as to the right of the sink
A place to put the electric kettle --> in corner b/w cleanup sink & range

Zone Separation:

Primary Prep Zone, Cooking Zone, and Cleanup Zone are all separated...with the Cooking & Prep Zones near each other.

There's also a secondary Prep Zone b/w the Cleanup sink and range that can be used if no one is cleaning up. While a secondary Prep Zone may not be necessary now, it probably will be in the future when those "2-3 kids" come along and start helping in the kitchen. Yes, that will be a few years from now, but if you're planning to stay in this house, then plan for the future!

I also tried putting the Cleanup Zone in the island, but that didn't work. You end up with (1) a lot of zone crossing, (2) the DW blocking access into the kitchen, and (3) not much dish storage near the DW and cleanup sink.

If you also moved the refrigerator to the top wall to try to avoid zone crossing, you still end up with items (2) & (3). You also have to move the window on the top wall to the right as well as make it smaller, and you said the windows could not be moved... Can you eliminate that top window altogether?

(The post is off a little, but it's not crucial to the design)

Some more issues from buehl that I figured I would respond to on the forum so that everyone could benefit:

(1) Assuming you have a counter-depth and not built-in refrigerator, the
aisle will be approx 6" narrower b/w the island & refrigerator...making it
only about 34" since most CD refrigerators are closer to 30" deep or so
(ours is 31")...plus you have to have room behind it for the plug, anti-tip
device, and air clearance, so plan on an additional 1" or so. You may even
have an issue getting the refrigerator in/out w/o taking off the ref doors
first. This is definitely NOT an aisle width you should start with...if
there are any problems that make it even narrower (like what happened to
me), then you'll really be in trouble! I recommend adding at least 3" to
the aisle width.The range will stick out into the aisle somewhat. Not a big issue, but
an FYI.

2.) How big an overhang is your KD putting in? Is it 15"? That's the minimum
overhang recommended for counter-height seating.

3.) As to the outside door...can it be a sliding door? I'm asking b/c you
really don't have room for an inside swinging door as well as seating at the
island. The other option is to have it swing out, but some municipalities
don't allow that.

MY responses:

1) The CD frig we chose (KA with no ice maker on the door) is 30" depth with handles (although that is only at the very center because the doors are curved) while the stove (Jenn Air duel fuel 36" pro style range) is 30" deep. I am not too concerned about the range because most of it is in the aisle between the cleanup sink and the island. However, with the frig I still think that 40" (really 42" because the KD has said that the 40" included 1" granite overhangs) should be enough. I don't think two people will be standing in that aisle at once or if they need to pass, they can go around. . .

2.) Right now I have a 12" overhang. I think we will start by putting a piece of plywood or old laminate from craiglist over the island and see what kind of space we feel we need. . . I know 15" is min recommended, but I've measured a couple from friends' house (you know you're TKO when. . .) and I've never really had a problem with a 12" overhang. Unless it is a main eating area. I figure this will more be like a place to hang out, not sit long term. Although I could be wrong.

3.) The door is a concern. Especially since we can't put it where Buehl suggested--there isn't room on the property to have stairs if we put it that low down the wall.) Our solution (from bmorepanic) was to go with 48" French doors so that the doors would only open 24" in. Also the active door will be on the right (from outside) or down the wall so that most of the time when one door is open you will walk out and have nothing in front of you. We considered sliding doors, but a 48" sliding door means only every having a 24" opening, which means you must by code here in MA have another 36" door elsewhere (we currently have a 32" door). Also I don't find 24" sliders to be a great product. We considered an out-swing 36" regular door as well as a 48" French door outswinging. Here in MA--it is allowed by code. However, DH doesn't like them. I love it that men don't have to give reasons for what they like or don't like (or at least mine doesn't!)

Is this perfect? Probably not. Will it be OK? I hope so.

I am having second thoughts on whether I need a prep sink (DH keep trying to talk me out of it), especially given how small the island is.

I also have concerns about the MW--will we hate bending over. I'm trying to minimize how much we use the MW in general (cook more, heat up less, less processed food), so maybe this will help? There also doesn't seem to be a concensus on the GE profile website about how much space you need around a convection MW sitting on a shelf in a cabinet (we're not buying the uber expensive built in trim option for something behind and under an island.)

Also, I think the sink base needs to increase to 33" to accommodate a 30" sink, which means i need to steal 3" somewhere--probably from the 18" drawer base (moving down to 15" should be OK).

Some dimensions not shown in the photo:

From Right to Left:
L shape cabinet depth: 24"
Aisle: 42" (in reality 40" with 2" given for granite overhang)
Island cabinet depth: 21" for sink base and MW shelf base
Overhang: 12"
Aisle to door: 56"
Total: 155"

The island will be 33"W (including overhang) x 57"L

I like the layout Buehl posted. Just one note on your post above: I don't think you'll have to bend over much if at all if you get a MW drawer - the drawers load from the top. You'd have to bend a bit to look in the window, but I don't really watch stuff as it is heated in the MW.

I'm 5'11" and DH is 6'3" and we find the under-counter MW drawer to be very handy.

The question of whether a prep sink is needed has to do with work flow, not size of kitchen (or island). In your case,
If you don't have a prep sink, your Prep Zone will be in the small space b/w the sink and range. Prep Zones naturally end up where there's a water source and, usually, near the range/cooktop.
The presence of a prep sink cuts down on zone-crossing...b/w the Prep Zone & refrigerator is the Cooking Zone.
And lastly, it avoids conflict at the main sink b/w someone cleaning up and someone trying to prep...whether you have a single or double bowl sink (you still have only one faucet!) You say your DH is usually cleaning up while you're prepping & cooking...think about all that going on in that small area in the back...especially with the rather narrow aisle your KD has b/w the sink wall & island.

I will say this, your KD's location of the prep sink cuts deeply into the usability of the island...I would move it to the end.

It will be so much easier and nicer for prepping if the island has a prep sink.

Tell me, how much does your DH prep & cook? If he doesn't do either then he probably won't see the benefit of the prep sink b/c it doesn't affect him...but it will affect you and your future children (who will most likely be helping in the kitchen)!

40" aisle...if that includes 1" overhangs (know, though, that standard counter overhangs are closer to 1.5"), that means your KD is assuming a 25" deep counter, not the standard 25.5". With your refrigerator another 5" deeper than that..yes, you have to count at the center b/c that's how far it really sticks out), you're down to a 35" aisle. If you need another 1" or so in the back, now you're down to a 34" aisle.

Seating overhang...you can cut down your overhang to 12", but people will still take up the same amount of room as if there were a 15" overhang...they'll just sit farther away from the counter edge (or have to sit sideways.) This means they're still going to take up the same amount of space in that aisle b/w the window/door and the island. If someone wants to use that door, they will most likely have to ask someone sitting at the counter to move...assuming they don't slam into them first b/c they didn't know they were there.

As to MW Drawer...we have one and there's very little bending down. It's also great to open, stir, and close...no removing the item or trying to fit a spoon inside to stir with. As to controls, they're angled up so you don't have to lean over to use them either. We're also a tall family and love the Drawer! (I'm the shortest at 5'10", my DS is the tallest (by 1") and is 6'6" and still growing!)

All this said, if you're OK with narrow aisles, cramped prep space (w/o the prep sink), etc., then you're going into it with your eyes open and you're making an informed decision. This is, after all, your kitchen. We can only give you advice and point out the pros/cons of your design...in the end, it's up to you to decide what to do and what is best for your kitchen based on how you and your family use it. We just want you to have the best layout and best workspace possible!

I love how my kitchen came out... It's so much better than it would have been if I had only taken my KD's design. It's thanks to the people here that it turned out so well. I just want you to feel the same way about your kitchen when it's done as I do about mine 2 years later...I still get a thrill when I walk into it and work in it! (I fit sixteen 13-year old girls in it...all cooking various dishes...and the main space is only approx 14'6" x 10'6"!)

First of all, I like Buehl's plan too! However, I can't put the door that far down the wall. So what's the compromise:

There's only so much space for aisle widths. So either I
a) give up the half bath, keep the door in the mudroom as is and allowing a better flow (and long island)
b) give more space to the aisle between the range/frig wall and island--while sacrificing space on the aisle between the door and the island
c) give up space between the range/frig to island aisle to allow a better aisle for btw the island and door.

I am trying to compromise between b and c. I figure that it's more important to have a good 54+" for coming in the door. Mostly it will be one person working in between the range and island, so I figure that aisle can be slightly more cramped. There will be a squeeze between the sink and the frig, however that's the tightest point and it's still close to the 36" recommended aisle width. I think the real question is: where is the best place to get squeezed? Front door or frig?

As far as the outswing vs. inswing door goes, this is a no-pass issue with DH. He wants inswing because you can't have a screen door with outswing (ensuring it is always shut.) Most of the time, we will only be using the 24" side on the right (or bottom).

It's hard to know how much space you need coming in the door (no NKBA guidelines). However, most of the time (using right/bottom 24") you will walk into a completely open aisle. Only when the second door is being used will the walkway open onto the island. And then there is 55" from the wall to island. If the door is 24" that leaves 31" for someone to be sitting and that's IF the second top/left door is being opened. . . And still no one is going to get hit by the door with 31" of space between them and the door.

If you think it's better to give 15" for the overhang and minimize the walkway to 52" (with 2nd door open 28" walkway). I guess your point is that they need the space and might as well give it under the overhang to allow more comfort. I get this point--it's something down the road to consider when we order granite.

Another question is: will it be a regular occurrence to have a) multiple people sitting at the island b) someone coming in the door using both doors c) another trying to walk past the open door.

Other options:
1) Eliminate seating at island. I don't like this because people sit at the island anyways by pulling up chairs, etc. It seems easier to just plan it in and give them some kind of a bar to put their legs under. In this scenario 12" is better than nothing. Although if we hate this, we could always get new granite down the road and eliminate an overhang and put the chairs.

2) Position island going in opposite direction to avoid the door--however this makes the seating better and the prep space worse.

As far as the MW--the Sharp drawer is SO expensive. I think that's maybe in the future. Plus, it's not even convection so it can't be used as a second smaller cooking element! For now we'll probably get a regular GE profile convection oven ($250) and see how much we hate bending over to open/program.

Am I missing something? Is there a better option? Would you go back to option A and eliminate the half bath?

I can't locate the other board, but evolon80 asked where our final decision was. I decided to go with what I originally posted here.

I put $7000 down on cabinets and then a week later the plumber asked if I had decided one way or another if I wanted a prep sink. I could have strangled him as I thought I had been very clear that I HAD decided and ORDERED cabinets. Now he says the law is a prep sink in MA has to have a seperate vent to the ceiling, which is approximately $1200.

And my husband still hasn't hung the door, which means I can't do a real mockup with a door open. So I am debating (must order TODAY), but I'm leaning toward buying just the surrounds first and then getting the island down the line after we can live with the door (using a mobile island).

I must decide and not regret my decision. This is so painful!

I'm not normally a fan of separate prep sinks (at least for the way I use my own kitchen), but reading what you've written above my opinion is that you should definitely keep the prep sink in your island. With your DH at the cleanup sink and you trying to prep and cook at the same time, I think it would end up driving you crazy not having and independent prep area and sink.

So I'd go for the island cabinets now, fixed with the sink. You can always make the decision to shorten the seating once the door is in and you've mapped out the space better. If you find it's really in the way, you could even 'corner off' the island overhang and sacrifice one seat (making it a 2-seater island) with cut corners. I think that would be a better decision than giving up your prep sink. There'd still be seating for the two of you on a daily basis, and when you have parties people would end up standing around or pulling up extra seats either way.

Good luck whatever you decide!