OK, I'm jumping in here kind of late. I've tried to read all the posts, but it is very confusing! Let me summarize what I think is in the many posts above:

First, with the traffic pattern you describe:

• Main entrance downstairs & coming up the stairs on the left

• Side entrance (directly off kitchen) not used much

• You want two entrances into the kitchen, one by the bedrooms & one from the LR/DR end

• Entrance to MBR, if in kitchen would not be main access to it (but, it looks like it would be the only access in most plans...)

Other points...

• You want some seating

• You don't need or necessarily care about windows on the right wall of the kitchen b/c of the skylights & wall of windows in the DR

• The outside stairs should be at least 30" wide, preferably 36" (room for carrying things up/down the stairs like trash)

• Small deck should be at least 36" wide for maneuvering room (door not a "straight shot" down the stairs, you have to turn to go down...)

Let me get this straight (so I understand what's going on)....

• Layout A (14' north wall):

  • There will be a hall on the west side of the kitchen

  • North wall ends where the outside stairs begin

  • No pantry on the east wall

  • Entire length of kitchen is 2' + 3' + 8' + 1'6" (overhang on peninsula) = 14'6"

  • Entire width of kitchen is 14' (but, measurements = 1'6" + 3' + 8' = 12'6" OR 1'6" + 3' + 4' + 3' + 2' = 13'6")

• Layout B (16' north wall):

  • There will be a hall on the west side of the kitchen

  • No pantry on the east wall

  • North wall extends to in front of the stairs (stated dimensions indicate only another 2', but I think it will be closer to 30"...36" deck - 6" exterior wall = 30" interior space. Also, drawing seems to show 27" freezer not the same width...if you have a 33" deck, that would seem correct

  • Entire length of kitchen is 2' + 3' + 12' = 17'

  • Entire width of kitchen is 16' (but with 30" less in main kitchen = 13'6" or 36" less in main kitchen = 13'...but...your measurements = 2' + 3' + 4' + 3' = 12' OR 2' + 3' + 8' = 13')

• Layout C (11'6" north wall):

  • Is there a hallway west of the kitchen?

  • North wall is 5' shorter from the left than the other 2 layouts

  • North wall extends to in front of the stairs and beyond for the pantry (to the "end" of the small deck?)

  • To be useful, that small deck should be at least 3' wide and the stairs 30" wide (not counting railing)

  • So pantry will be another 3' "longer" than the north wall. Does that make the pantry 5' deep?

  • Entire length of kitchen is 4' + 14' + 1'6" (overhang on peninsula) = 19'6"

  • Entire width of kitchen is 11'6" + 5' = 16'6" (with 30" or 36" less in main kitchen = 14' or 13'6"...but... measurements = 2'3" (range depth) + 3' + 3' + 3' + 2' = 13'3" OR 2' + 3' + 8' = 13')

• All Layouts:

  • Peninsula is always 8' wide w/4 seats

  • Taken together, measurements don't add up and I think that's what's causing so much confusion

    here.

Appliances...

• 27" All Freezer

• 27" All Refrigerator

• WD (27" or 30")

• MW (24" or...

OK, I'm jumping in here kind of late. I've tried to read all the posts, but it is very confusing! Let me summarize what I think is in the many posts above:

First, with the traffic pattern you describe:

• Main entrance downstairs & coming up the stairs on the left

• Side entrance (directly off kitchen) not used much

• You want two entrances into the kitchen, one by the bedrooms & one from the LR/DR end

• Entrance to MBR, if in kitchen would not be main access to it (but, it looks like it would be the only access in most plans...)

Other points...

• You want some seating

• You don't need or necessarily care about windows on the right wall of the kitchen b/c of the skylights & wall of windows in the DR

• The outside stairs should be at least 30" wide, preferably 36" (room for carrying things up/down the stairs like trash)

• Small deck should be at least 36" wide for maneuvering room (door not a "straight shot" down the stairs, you have to turn to go down...)

Let me get this straight (so I understand what's going on)....

• Layout A (14' north wall):

  • There will be a hall on the west side of the kitchen

  • North wall ends where the outside stairs begin

  • No pantry on the east wall

  • Entire length of kitchen is 2' + 3' + 8' + 1'6" (overhang on peninsula) = 14'6"

  • Entire width of kitchen is 14' (but, measurements = 1'6" + 3' + 8' = 12'6" OR 1'6" + 3' + 4' + 3' + 2' = 13'6")

• Layout B (16' north wall):

  • There will be a hall on the west side of the kitchen

  • No pantry on the east wall

  • North wall extends to in front of the stairs (stated dimensions indicate only another 2', but I think it will be closer to 30"...36" deck - 6" exterior wall = 30" interior space. Also, drawing seems to show 27" freezer not the same width...if you have a 33" deck, that would seem correct

  • Entire length of kitchen is 2' + 3' + 12' = 17'

  • Entire width of kitchen is 16' (but with 30" less in main kitchen = 13'6" or 36" less in main kitchen = 13'...but...your measurements = 2' + 3' + 4' + 3' = 12' OR 2' + 3' + 8' = 13')

• Layout C (11'6" north wall):

  • Is there a hallway west of the kitchen?

  • North wall is 5' shorter from the left than the other 2 layouts

  • North wall extends to in front of the stairs and beyond for the pantry (to the "end" of the small deck?)

  • To be useful, that small deck should be at least 3' wide and the stairs 30" wide (not counting railing)

  • So pantry will be another 3' "longer" than the north wall. Does that make the pantry 5' deep?

  • Entire length of kitchen is 4' + 14' + 1'6" (overhang on peninsula) = 19'6"

  • Entire width of kitchen is 11'6" + 5' = 16'6" (with 30" or 36" less in main kitchen = 14' or 13'6"...but... measurements = 2'3" (range depth) + 3' + 3' + 3' + 2' = 13'3" OR 2' + 3' + 8' = 13')

• All Layouts:

  • Peninsula is always 8' wide w/4 seats

  • Taken together, measurements don't add up and I think that's what's causing so much confusion

    here.

Appliances...

• 27" All Freezer

• 27" All Refrigerator

• WD (27" or 30")

• MW (24" or...

OK, I'm jumping in here kind of late. I've tried to read all the posts, but it is very confusing! Let me summarize what I think is in the many posts above:

First, with the traffic pattern you describe:

• Main entrance downstairs & coming up the stairs on the left

• Side entrance (directly off kitchen) not used much

• You want two entrances into the kitchen, one by the bedrooms & one from the LR/DR end

• Entrance to MBR, if in kitchen would not be main access to it (but, it looks like it would be the only access in most plans...)

Other points...

• You want some seating

• You don't need or necessarily care about windows on the right wall of the kitchen b/c of the skylights & wall of windows in the DR

• The outside stairs should be at least 30" wide, preferably 36" (room for carrying things up/down the stairs like trash)

• Small deck should be at least 36" wide for maneuvering room (door not a "straight shot" down the stairs, you have to turn to go down...)

Let me get this straight (so I understand what's going on)....

• Layout A (14' north wall):

  • There will be a hall on the west side of the kitchen

  • North wall ends where the outside stairs begin

  • No pantry on the east wall

  • Entire length of kitchen is 2' + 3' + 8' + 1'6" (overhang on peninsula) = 14'6"

  • Entire width of kitchen is 14' (but, measurements = 1'6" + 3' + 8' = 12'6" OR 1'6" + 3' + 4' + 3' + 2' = 13'6")

• Layout B (16' north wall):

  • There will be a hall on the west side of the kitchen

  • No pantry on the east wall

  • North wall extends to in front of the stairs (stated dimensions indicate only another 2', but I think it will be closer to 30"...36" deck - 6" exterior wall = 30" interior space. Also, drawing seems to show 27" freezer not the same width...if you have a 33" deck, that would seem correct

  • Entire length of kitchen is 2' + 3' + 12' = 17'

  • Entire width of kitchen is 16' (but with 30" less in main kitchen = 13'6" or 36" less in main kitchen = 13'...but...your measurements = 2' + 3' + 4' + 3' = 12' OR 2' + 3' + 8' = 13')

• Layout C (11'6" north wall):

  • Is there a hallway west of the kitchen?

  • North wall is 5' shorter from the left than the other 2 layouts

  • North wall extends to in front of the stairs and beyond for the pantry (to the "end" of the small deck?)

  • To be useful, that small deck should be at least 3' wide and the stairs 30" wide (not counting railing)

  • So pantry will be another 3' "longer" than the north wall. Does that make the pantry 5' deep?

  • Entire length of kitchen is 4' + 14' + 1'6" (overhang on peninsula) = 19'6"

  • Entire width of kitchen is 11'6" + 5' = 16'6" (with 30" or 36" less in main kitchen = 14' or 13'6"...but... measurements = 2'3" (range depth) + 3' + 3' + 3' + 2' = 13'3" OR 2' + 3' + 8' = 13')

• All Layouts:

  • Peninsula is always 8' wide w/4 seats

  • Taken together, measurements don't add up and I think that's what's causing so much confusion

    here.

Appliances...

• 27" All Freezer

• 27" All Refrigerator

• WD (27" or 30")

• MW (24" or...

It's kinda hard to tell because we can't tell your aisle clearances. Assuming all is standard ( at a very minimum 36" preferably around 42")... I like the last one best of the ones your provided. How wide is the island in the last one? If it's 4' wide, you could have dish storage right behind the sink/DW or in uppers above it. What function do you see for the hutch?

I don't know if you posted dimensions in a previous thread but could you either link or post them? It would help alot and I"d like to try out some ideas.

I like the last one because the seating at the counter will not get in the way of your work space but I am no expert :)

Since you don't seem to like any of them a lot...

{{gwi:2107702}}

Plus this pic from Crown point showing a cabinet built-into the wall for a pantry. Drawing envisions a "visually very shallow cabinet" face adding 2 or 3 inches to the 12?-15?" depth of that bumpout pantry.

Remodelfla-

The aisle clearance is 40' for all the drawings. Sorry I spaced on writing down the measurements.

The islands are all 4' wide. The last island is 6x4. I posted the original Lowe's layout below with measurements. There are a few things that are not accounted for in this layout. First, the stairwell is getting moved to the back of the kitchen, making the right wall usable. Also, there is a back hallway that would require a 5' wall sticking out towards the island on the top of the left wall.

The hutch would serve as extra storage, plus a focal point. The kitchen is open to the FDR which is open to the formal living room, so we needed something on that wall to look 'pretty'.

bmorepanic-

Thanks for taking the time to fiddle with my design. I would like the sink either under the windows on the right wall or at least somewhere that has an open back, island/peninsula.

Love the photos of the cabinet built ins! That gives me some great ideas for the pantry. The current area of the 'pantry' is 2' but if we did the bumpout we would have 4'.

Jen-

I like the last one the best, but agree there would be limited counter space.

Please keep the ideas coming!! They really help me think outside the box.

{{!gwi}}

Do you think you spend a lot of time doing dishes? I think the image of "working" at the sink, when you have a prep island maybe won't be true.

I'm confused, because I can't figure out which the 'last one' is if it is short on counter space. The bottom left? If so, I agree that I wouldn't want seating in a work aisle.

I'm also confused because looking at the Lowes layout, there doesn't seem to be room for an island and counter on each side of the kitchen, which most of the above plans have.

Can you do the drawings on graph paper so that the elements are to scale? For example, the warming drawer looks different sizes in different drawings, but always looks to be about 24" or less, but aren't they wider than that? I think you can get into real trouble trying to make a plan if everything isn't very accurately sized, because when it comes to reality, you may run out of room, or things may orient to each other differently than you'd planned.

Here are the drawing to 1/8inch scale with the measurements!! I'm not sure how the 1/8th inch scale will translate via photobucket.

Rhome1-
I should pay more attention to details! I guess I'm thinking that once I pick the layout all the 'things' can be placed afterwards! I'm probably way off base on that one!

{{gwi:2107703}}

Ok, according to the measured drawing, you can have one 25" deep countertop, two 40" wide aisles and a 38" wide island top and that's all.

In the narrower part of the room, you have roughly 12 feet. In the wider part of the room, you have 16.5 feet. You're saying that the entire 12 foot wide part is expanding? If the entire room will be 16.5 wide, you'll have two 49" aisles and a 52" wide island top.

What does this mean - "Also, there is a back hallway that would require a 5' wall sticking out towards the island on the top of the left wall?"

Warming drawers are available in different sizes - depending on who made them and stuff. Popular sizes are 24", 27", 30" and a couple of companies make 36" ones.

Bmorepanic-

I'm slightly confused to what drawing you are referring too; top, bottom left, or bottom right. The width is 14'2 at the narrow part and 16'2 at the widest part. The length is 17'6, and in the top drawing the length has been reduced to 14'. The bar counter will be between 15in- 18in and will come out of the dinning room's space not the kitchen.

If you look at the bottom left drawing, there is a 5ft wall that sticks out past the Freezer. That wall shields the entrance to the MBR.

I'm not so worried about the actual size of the warming drawer (at this point) but more on placement. I am sure I can find a drawer that would fit the width of the location that is deemed best. Maybe I should not even worry about it at this point.

I am just trying to get comments regarding each layout and what the pros and cons of each are, so I can make a decision.

You said: "I'm not so worried about the actual size of the warming drawer (at this point) but more on placement...I am just trying to get comments regarding each layout and what the pros and cons of each are, so I can make a decision."

and

"I guess I'm thinking that once I pick the layout all the 'things' can be placed afterwards! I'm probably way off base on that one!"

I have to say that I think you may be a little bit...What if you choose a layout and the 'things' don't fit? The size of things really affect how they layout in relation to other things, and the reason I asked in the first place was so I could judge how much cabinet and counter you have where you have it labeled 'warming drawer.' I was trying to judge workspace...and there is a big difference between 24" and 36", which is evidently the range of sizes in warming drawers.

Each drawing/layout above has different measurements, so it makes it all hard to understand and difficult to compare the plans. Sorry if I'm being dense and not following.

why is there a wall that sticks into the room in one drawing but not the others?

why is the stairway in some drawings and not others?

this is so confusing!

Okay - I've been following this for a while and now I'm as confused as everyone else here and I design and build kitchens, so I get it more than most, but it looks like you fired your KD and are now using a pre-schooler to do your drawings. Just kidding, of course, but you really need to define the fixed elements and boundaries if people are going to make meaningful suggestions. I actually started drawing this on CAD last night but the inconsistencies were too frustrating so I'll wait until it's sorted out a little better. I get what you are trying to do and what you're dealing with but it's hard to see the bigger picture. Are the stairs going to be there for sure? I really wouldn't want to lose the seating at the island but there are a lot of issues you are balancing - John

I think I got part of it anyway. We cross posted and I didn't see the second set of sketches and the lowes person left off the total width line for that section of the kitchen and I didn't catch that.

The doorway in the upper left corner of the pictures goes to the master. (I thought it went to a main hall.) The one with the 5 foot wall on the upper left - C - is a simple shield so a vista through the bedroom doorway is blocked. Does the bedroom door have to be towards the top of the drawing or does it need to be to the left of the corner? Or can it be at either? Can the bedroom door move to the right?

Why does the ?staircase? come and go on the right side? Where would the stairs go? Are the windows on the right side fixed?

Where do groceries come from?

I get the feeling that the barrier peninsula has no specific purpose except for that old saw that it will hide kitchen mess. It will hide messes only from little people, anyone over 4 feet tall will see it all anyway. Peninsula's with a raised bar tend to be junque catchers.

The peninsula is protecting the cleanup area from passersby instead of protecting the cooking area. The cleanup area has the most interplay with the dining area but has the worst access.

Direction of the work area is important. So maybe work a plan outwards from the direction you want to face. Again, just as a statement for you to think about, you'll probably spend a lot more time in the prep-cook zone than at the cleanup sink.

More about tech wierdness:

42" is the minimum recommended aisle. 36" aisles are done when you absolutely can't do anything else or just in one spot. In a kitchen with a bedroom tucked on, where you're going to be carrying laundry baskets and such, I'd be happier with 48" aisles - at least towards the bedroom and where ever the laundry is. I'd hate it when the clothes caught on fire.

A seating aisle needs to be 44" wide in order for a person to get by a seated person. But when a work area exists behind the seated person - like a sink or range, you should have minimum 54" with 60" recommended. Why? A seated person takes up about two feet from the counter edge. The minimum aisle to use a cabinet is about 36".

Refs and frzs can't be right up against a longer wall. Minimally, the units have door handles that stick out beyond the side of the unit when the door is opened to 90 degrees. Some of them require greater than 90 degree opening for normal operation of drawers. Most of them can't be cleaned without being able to open the doors wider than 90 degrees - or by pulling the unit out of position.

In "A" and "B", I can't understand how you'd do that because the aisle is narrow. In "B", I can't understand how you could even install the freezer. The freezer is about 2 feet deep and the aisle in front of it is 2 feet deep. In "A", you could position the units so the doors opened fully into the adjacent doorway - but you still need...

I guess I'm CONFUSED because, the reason I titled this thread different layouts, is because there are three completely different layouts. I thought that would be apparent by they different length and width of the room in the different layouts.

I was not trying to sound naive regarding placements of 'things'. I just did not think the actual width of the WD was crucial to the basic layout at this point. All of the large appliances have been picked 27' Fridge and Freezer. 48' stove, and 24' dishwasher. The drawings above assume about 27'-30' for both MW and WD.

These were the three layouts that our Architect came up with, because we are in the planning stages of entire house remodel, he did hand drawings vs putting everything in CAD. Once we decided on various aspects of the home he will then put options in CAD for us. I traced over his original design in order to move some of the items around.

The staircase is a outdoor staircase that goes to the garden. There is an internal staircase off the main hallway.

There are windows on the wall with the outdoor staircase. There will be a skylight in the kitchen as well.

The kitchen is not the main access point to the MBR, so there would not be laundry baskets, etc going through the kitchen.

The reason there are three different layouts is to decided if we want the wall sticking out, or to go with a something else.

Below is the second floor in its entirety which will help explain the hallway off the kitchen, etc.

{{gwi:2107705}}

The main entrance is downstairs and most people come up the interior stairs or the garden stairs?

Which way do you want to face when you're working?

The main entrance is downstairs in the foyer and everyone will come up the internal staircase.

The outside staircase is for me and for the cleaning people to use. The trash bins are at the bottom of it. We also have the ability to get rid of it, like in the top illustration, and put a small deck off the kitchen.

I would like to face the windows, but am indifferent as long as my back is not to the dining room.

I got the three different layout part of it but not the why until you drew in the door to the MB. I thought the door lead to a corridor that accessed the MB. Trying to screen that view with the 5' wall makes sense now although the curved wall will not really block it and the square one really intrudes into the space. Hmmm...that's a really tight area -- not a lot of good choices there. I think the general layout of the last full plan is the best you can do with what you have. About access to the pantry. Is that area enclosed and the stairway open? Seems like an issue with doors being in the way. Maybe extend the platform and have the door at the top of the stairs if possible. I don't think there's enough room for a walk-in. I would just do a pantry with that area open to the kitchen and cabinets in the room adjacent. It wouldn't need to be so deep, which will not crowd what looks like small balconies off the master, which look like they don't work the way it's drawn. It's really hard to tell without things drawn to scale. I guess there's no way to push the sink wall and stairs out even further to give you seating at the island? John

The reason I did not post the second floor layout before, was because a lot of things are going to be different then are currently drawn. We didn't like the curved wall idea and agree the 5' wall really cuts up the space.

The Stairway does not exist in that location today, it is almost off of the dinning room, so any changes to the stairway are possible. The first 2' of area where the pantry is, is enclosed, we were thinking of bumping out the pantry area to match the width of the exterior staircase. The balconies off of the master are also not in the finished plans.

The other idea I was trying to illustrate was that the back wall of the kitchen can be pushed out,which means the kitchen would start where the 5' wall is, to make the kitchen a square. This is pictured in the bottom left drawing.

The third idea was to push the master doorway past the kitchen and into what is currently the guest bedroom to eliminate the hallway that is causing the 5' wall. This is pictured in the bottom right drawing.

Had a follow-up thought but my message got sent back to me so I'm trying again. Move the back wall up one foot instead of the three feet like in the other drawings. Extend the wall at the end of the cabinets (wall thickness only -- not full cabinet depth) to block view into MB. Rework the corridor a little. Access MB around that wall.
John

just wanted to let everyone know that the 27"subzero freezer (and fridge) only opens to 90 degrees - so you can have it on an end wall, with just a bit of buffer for the top part handle. I've got a 2" filler before my 'end wall', although it is really an open doorway.

Hang in there sfcity...the dream layout awaits you!!

hmmm..have you considered keeping the fridge/freezer together? You could put them on the bedroom wall and design them as a 'hutch' with other pretty cabs flanking it on that wall (I saw this in a showroom and it is very pretty!). that would obviously completely change the rest of your spots, but just a thought!

John-

I'm a little confused. Let me know if I'm way off base

If you moved the wall 1', wouldn't you have to shorten the left wall by 1' in order to keep the current back doorway? That would leave 13' for the cook top and fridge/freezer.

Mairin-

Thanks for the info! I can't wait to use my 27' Subs!!

I guess you would shorten that wall or extend it toward the dining room a little. It's just an alternative to shortening the whole room by 3 feet like in the other two choices. I don't know what the distance is between the cabinet face of the back wall and the end of the cooktop wall currently. Without a scale drawing it's hard to know what works best with so much happening in such a tight space - every little bit counts. I didn't know if you were willing to give up any of the guest bedroom to create a entry there but it would really cut into that room. Also my question about the stairway was could it go out even further? This would essentially be pushing out that whole kitchen wall and having the stairs outside of that. I don't know if you can or want to do that much but I really like seating at the island on that side. John

that info makes it a lot more understandable. it looks like there's a little area to the right of the guest room door that could be used for an entrance into the mstr bedroom... unless that is used for something else. Then no wall into the kitchen would be needed to hide the view into the mstr bdrm.

i'd make the kitchen - on the right - even with the mstr bdrm outer wall - if that's financially doable for you. that would also give you more room in the center of the kitchen for the island.

the thing is, i wouldn't want my 3 major spots in the kitchen - sink, stove, fridge separated by the island... you will be walking around that island a LOT and/or bumping into it.

also, on the end of the peninsula it's marked (#3 of your first diagrams) WO/MW - is that going to be a full wall up for both of those?

Small deck, BIG glass doors - no window - you could still have them, but opted for tall storage. Range, cleanup can be reversed. Frz could move to the upper right corner if little 2 foot square thing went to being, say, bookshelves in the bedroom.
{{gwi:2107706}}

You might want to combine the guest full bath and powder room into a full hall bath. You could move the laundry up or move the guest closet and have a tiny sitting area and/or move the entrance to the guest room completely.

John-
We donÂt want to extend into the dining room, except for a 15-18in bar. IÂm confused regarding "distance between the cabinet face of the back wall and the end of the cooktop wall currently". There is nothing there currently; it is a completely open space. The length of them room is 18Â.
The stairway can not be pushed further without major permitting and building approval from the city.

Steph-
I have also been thinking of pushing the master entrance into the hallway and moving both guest room and MBR doorways so they are essentially facing each other. I think that idea would give me the most amount of usable space in the kitchen. The guest room is gaining about 5ft in the back corner, which will lead to a small deck, so I donÂt think it would make the room feel very small.
The MW/WD in #3 were just an idea for placement. I am not married to anything. IÂm also not sure what you mean by full wall. There will be a pony wall behind the cabinets on the dining room side, if that was what you were asking.

Bmorepanic-
Thanks for the new layout. I had never thought about putting the sink on the back wall. IÂm confused to why you didnÂt put the pantry where you have the Âslider or French door"? There is going to be a ton of light in the kitchen from the skylight and the wall of windows on the right side. There is also a roof deck and outdoor kitchen on the third level of the house so deck space off the kitchen may be wasted space. I am also concerned about not having two ways to enter the kitchen, which is the catalyst of my layout problems.

As for the powder room and full bath, the buyer in our market wants to have a powder room and full bathroom.This is so guests donÂt have to use a bathroom that is in use by the household. We originally had one bath and our Real Estate agent told us it would be a turnoff come resale. Also, most buyers expect the laundry room on the lower level, because laundry in the hallway would be to crowded. I know itÂs bizarre, but we will sell the house eventually.

The glass doors are to give you more view in the body of the kitchen, not because of any concern about the light.

There will be roughly 8ft of windows on the right wall. Do you think the back of the kitchen would really miss out on a view (of our neighbors) if I used that space for a pantry?

I'm sorry, but I thought you wanted to look out the kitchen windows? If I read the sketch correctly, the other windows are in the dining room?

We have some windows directly facing the neighbors who are around 20 - 25 feet away. Both houses have screening plants so both of us mostly see greenery and a bit of blank wall when at the windows.

I think the pantry location depends on where you want to work. I believe you'll work on the island and do a simple turn around for the range.

So my personal ideal would be the freezer kicked over to the top right corner and have the cleanup sink, freezer form a "guest bar" when entertaining. That would get them out of my hair and out of my prep sink!

I'd put the pantry beside the ref - both dry and cold storage together.

I did a quick drawing to give you an idea. Not sure how the file is going to show up. I couldn't load the pdf file but can e-mail it if needed. {{gwi:2107707}}

Sorry about the size I couldn't load a CAD dwg. file or a PDF. John

Hey John-

Thanks for the layout. What are your thoughts of putting the fridge/freezer/stove on the back wall.

I made this in Google sketchup, thoughts?

The back wall has two 27' Sub Zeros, a 36' pantry in the back right corner.

{{gwi:2107708}}

I forgot to mention there will be room for 3 seats at the island, on the 'white' side. There will also be 4 seats on the 'white' side of the peninsula.

I would like to put the WD to the left of the stove and the MW in the side of the island. The DW will be to the right of the sink aka gray square in the peninsula.

Sorry, I'm really having a hard time loading these drawings It's going from a CAD dwg. to a PDF to a jpeg to photbucket to GW. There must be an easier way. I thought it would come out bigger but it is more or less to scale.

{{gwi:2107709}}

I think this is the best layout if we can not move the hallway. The 5' ft wall does not look as intrusive as I thought it would. The island will not have seating, but the peninsula will have seating for 4.

{{gwi:2107710}}

Below I think is the best layout if we can move the hallway/door to the master bedroom. The island will have seating for three, I could not figure out how to put bar stools in. The peninsula will have seating for 4.

Thoughts?

{{gwi:2107708}}

Five foot wall sticks out into the space a lot. 4'-2" is the size in the drawing #3.
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for both options, you have a prep sink in island, right? This is good so you have a short turn around from fridge to prepsink.

for #2: what is aisle width between the island seating side and sink? It looks too tight, but obviously could be deceiving. Do you need the extra seating? I don't know the exact NKB standards for clearance behind seats, but I think it's at least 50"?? because you have to allow for the person/chair to take up 2 feet. This might be cramped behind you while you are cleaning at the big sink, and tough when opening dishwasher. The other area to consider is the peninsula depth to allow for adequate space for a little splash during cleaning (I don't find this to be much of an issue), and plate size/room for the dining items. I've seen overhangs of 12", but this seems to be a little tight for a large dinner plate plus glassware. I do like the looks of #2, and the nice big island for storage.

for #1: would you loose the 36" pantry in the back right? where do see yourself putting pantry goods in this design?

You're right-gave more space behind the seating on #2.There is a pantry on #3. It's hard to read because it's so small.

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Hi, forgive me if this has already come up (I am a little confused by this thread), but have you thought of possibly ditching the bar for a larger island with seating at the end of it? You would get a bigger work surface and still have the function of the bar (or do you really often have 7 people sitting in the kitchen at one time?). It just seems like you would never (comfortably) use both sets of seating at the same time, so why not combine them?

Mairin-
Hello! Yes, the Island will have a prep sink. I could not figure out how to put a real sink in Google sketchup. There is 48' from Island to peninsula in the drawing, I could do 50' without a problem.

I was planning for the peninsula bar to be 15', which will hang into the FDR. Do you think that is enough splash zone?

The pantry in #1 is in the back right corner and is long and narrow, 7x2.

John-

Thanks for the layouts. I'm leaning towards #2, thoughts?

Rubfig-
I should change the name of the thread to confusing layouts! I have a very odd space I am working with.

If I ditched the peninsula, where would the sink/dw/trash go?

Also, we have about 10 ppl in the kitchen about once a month for a dinner party, so I think the seating will come in handy. I'm not married to the island seating, so if it has to go, I will be okay with it.

Here's another option. Without seeing the space it's hard to say what is best. There are things I like about all of them. I like the sink and prepping at the island facing the window. I don't think I like the sink in the peninsula or the seating at the island with your back facing the FDR. I like a big island and seating at the island but then the sink has to move. Maybe #1 with a longer island if you move the peninsula into the dining room space a little more and the one seat at the end for your cooking instructor an maybe squeeze in another seat around the front corner.
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My drawings are to scale according to the measurements on the Lowes layout. The last drawing measures across the kitchen starting at the range as; 26" range counter, 42" isle, 56" island, 42"isle with a wall thickness on either side of 5". That's 14'-6". Sorry about the demomode written across the screen. I didn't put it there. It's from a PDF - Jpeg converter I downloaded.

First, with the traffic pattern you describe:
 Main entrance downstairs & coming up the stairs on the left
Yes. The Âside staircase is only for for easier access to trash and to let the dog out.

 Side entrance (directly off kitchen) not used much
o See above

 You want two entrances into the kitchen, one by the bedrooms & one from the LR/DR end
o Correct.
o
 Entrance to MBR, if in kitchen would not be main access to it (but, it looks like it would be the only access in most plans...)
o That is the only MBR entrance. We are toying with the idea of moving the entrance to the main hallway, thus taken some space from the Guest Room. IF this does not happen then we will need a 5Â wall coming off the West wall to shield the entrance to the MBR. This wall is currently in the kitchen today. If we go with the 5Â wall the west wall will be approx 11Â6.
Other points...
 You want some seating
o Yes, at least 4 at the peninsula. The peninsula Âoverhang is being taken out of the dinning roomÂs space. I would like some island seating

 You don't need or necessarily care about windows on the right wall of the kitchen b/c of the skylights & wall of windows in the DR
o We are planning on windows on the longer part of the east wall.

 The outside stairs should be at least 30" wide, preferably 36" (room for carrying things up/down the stairs like trash)
o IÂm not sure what the dimensions of the staircase will be.

 Small deck should be at least 36" wide for maneuvering room (door not a "straight shot" down the stairs, you have to turn to go down...)
o I am not sure the size of the current deck I would guess about 48Â. The current stairs and deck will be completely rebuilt.

Let me get this straight (so I understand what's going on)....
 Layout A (14' north wall):
o There will be a hall on the west side of the kitchen - YES
o North wall ends where the outside stairs begin - YES
o No pantry on the east wall  Yes, shallow pantry on West Wall
o Entire length of kitchen is 2' + 3' + 8' + 1'6" (overhang on peninsula) = 14'6" YES- 3 feet is being taken from the kitchen and given to he Master in order to create a door that is not in the kitchen.
o Entire width of kitchen is 14' (but, measurements = 1'6" + 3' + 8' = 12'6" OR 1'6" + 3' + 4' + 3' + 2' = 13'6") Width of kitchen is approx 14Â

 Layout B (16' north wall):
o There will be a hall on the west side of the kitchen Yes
o No pantry on the east wall ÂCorrect. There will be a shallow pantry on the west wall
o North wall extends to in front of the stairs (stated dimensions indicate only another 2', but I think it will be closer to 30"...36" deck - 6" exterior wall = 30" interior space. Also, drawing seems to show 27" freezer not the same width...if you have a 33" deck, that would seem correct
ï§ Currently north wall extends 2Â2 in front of stairs. I know it sounds weird, but that is what it currently it.
o Entire length of...

Hello. I think it has gone past this, but

If I ditched the peninsula, where would the sink/dw/trash go? -- it would mean your center island could be longer, so seating on 2 sides (right side and front), with room on the left and back for the sink/dw/trash.

It looks like others have a much better grasp of this one though, so I will step back and watch :).

Rubyfig-

OHHHHH.....I could not figure out what you meant! Sorry.

I did a 3d model with the sink/trash/DW on the North wall and I kind like it. It is definitely something to consider.