here it is:

{{!gwi}}

is the LR south of the fridge? if so, is there any divider between the 2 - or all 1 big area?

are you going to use the prep sink for prep? if that's all counter next to the prep sink then it'll probably work out ok.

is the mw you have on there to be undercab? I don't like undercab mws - wouldn't like always bending down to put something in... set time...check on it...take something out. .

you don't seem to have many drawers to me - and my kitchen is just for 1 person - me.

how many in your family?

The biggest problems I see are limited storage and narrow walkways. This would work better with a narrower island.

For the Microwave in the island, I can't say. A lot of people like them. I don't. My new one is at the perfect reach in height--which was a piece of blind luck--but I was just thinking, yesterday, how much I love it. It's about 6" above counter height. What you could do is make the space adaptable for either the drawer or a countertop style unit, so if you don't like the latter you can switch it out for the drawer.

The bookcase on the end works with the layout of the other elements in your island. If you need it for kitchen storage you can put vases, tureen and other serving dishes, or even glasses down there. Use it for pots. Or you could do all your canisters. Or whatever. And thread in your favorite cookbooks.

Having a little room on the end of the island on the far side of the prep sink is a good idea. There's enough depth to the island, as you show it, that you don't have to scrimp, so having that little area to the left gives you a place to set things down. That's a good thing.

Some people like the trash in the prep area. I certainly use mine more, but I have a pail that I pull out for that, or I use a paper bag, and leave the pull out for recycling. If you use the garbage can most during clean-up, then by the clean-up sink is good. Or just put it where it fits. Mine is next to the clean-up sink just because there was a space there.

The lazy susan is a great place for pots because smaller things (voice of experience) can be a pain there, and it's easy access from the range.

The rarely used small appliances can either go on the bottom shelf of the lazy susan (if there's room) or the high shelf in the coat closet if they're not too heavy.

I'd combine the brooms and drawers for one big pantry cupboard. Section off a tall, narrow section for brooms, and put roll out tray shelves in the rest.

42" is enough room for a walkway, but not for seating and walking. 36" is barely enough for a work aisle, though 42" is better.

Some of the legs vs. corbels thing depends on how much cantilever you have, how the corbels are anchored, etc. You have to think about what your surface is and how it's going to be supported while you're designing your island. We've seen the OMG's from when people just plunk a huge piece of stone with an overhang on a few cabinets.

In the drawers? All your stuff! It's amazing how fast they fill up. Flatware, utensils, knives, wraps and bags, tea towels, tools, napkins, dishes, pots, potlids, colanders, graters, mixing bowls, canisters, bakeware, pie plates, measuring cups... Some people also do spices, cans, and other pantry supplies.

just in case people have having an issue with the small size.

What plllog said plus maybe section off a bit of the entry closet for a broom closet.

Is that an entrance area/hallway by the coat closet end? It seems that area needs some tweaking in your current plan.

If the coat closet can be turned you will have more room on the window/sink wall. Then you can fit in the MW area. Just a thought.

I definitely want to second what plllog said about the narrow aisles. 36" seems really narrow to me for a work aisle. Have you tried taping this out on the floor? Or set up some cardboard boxes to represent cabinets & appliances and then walk through the space. I found that helpful when working on my layout.

Also, in this picture, it looks like you wouldn't be able to open the trash & the dishwasher at the same time because they would be right on top of each other. Ditto for the microwave drawer & the oven door, but that's probably less of an inconvenience.

What is in the adjacent spaces? Entry door? Seating area?

More information: There are stairs to 2nd floor immediately to the right of the kitchen and beyond the stairs the living room. At the bottom of the drawing opens into dining room with a built-in window seat and 60" square table (and has a wall of windows looking out onto the lake.)

Also, the main door entry is on the top left bump-out mudroom.

Re: laheen: Good point about the trash pull out colliding with the DW. . . I could move the DW over towards the broom closet/pantry and then have the sink in front of the trash. But that would mean I would only have a 30" window (instead of 42, 48, or bigger)--unless I don't want the sink centered on the window, but in general I think that looks weird.

As far as walkways go, 36" is pretty big (I looked and measure different walkways in showrooms), especially for this size house. And yes I have used boxes, this is how I came up with an island instead of peninsula.

I am wondering where to put the trash. However, right now I find that we wash EVERYTHING before it goes in the trash or recycling besides we fill them so slowly, so clean-up seems a better spot. Plus I plan to use the prep sink for washing veggies, emptying colanders, etc.

As far as the MW, I hate undercabinet MW, but I can't find a better place to fit it. . . There isn't 24" between the frig and stove to do an up high MW cabinet, and because we mainly use it for reheating leftovers, popcorn, etc, it seems silly to put it near the cleanup area. . . I'm open to suggestions though!

Also thanks for the advice on where to put stuff!!

Thanks, Bmore! ;-)

I agree with everything Plllog said...Mostly this is a pretty good plan. I would want the island narrower to give you better aisles on either side, especially behind the seating. (Your 36" aisle will get smaller with doors/drawer fronts, pulls, and counter overhang...down to about 33".)

To do this, I would put the trash pullout where the microwave is, but open toward the sink, as you had it. This solves the conflict with the dishwasher and makes it handy to prep, cooking, and cleanup areas. Mine is situated similarly and I love it. With the trash moved, you can make the island narrower....If, for instance, you reduce it by a foot, you could add 3" to the range aisle, and 9" to the seating aisle...Still modest, but better.

I would line up the end of the coat closet with the entry instead of having it hang over into the kitchen. I like Plllog's idea of combining the drawers and broom closet into one, but to fit the microwave, I would shift the broom closet to the left (after shortening the coat closet as suggested already), then enlarge the drawer bank and put the microwave above it...Either in the bottom shelf of an upper (probably deeper than standard), or more in line with Plllog's suggestion, bring the upper down to the counter with an open area for the microwave at whichever height you like best...So you have a micro and possible pantry cabinet. The broom closet could be narrower to give that setup more room.

Hopefully, a picture explains better than words:

What if I eliminated the trays area and pushed the range up against the Super Susan and then I would have 24" between the frig and range to put the microwave in an upper cabinet.

I hate to move the MW over to where rhome410 suggested because where then do I put dishes/glasses/etc. I love having dining wear near the DW and out of the line of cooking. . .

Do you think putting the range next to the susan is a bad idea?

Also, what do you think of putting the trash pull out to the right of the sink (where drawers #2 are)?

I definitely will take your suggestions as to the walkways. . . I want to squeeze as much in as possible, but I'm not accounting for stools, sitting, etc.

If you put the upper cabinet down to the counter, which is the option I'd choose, the microwave could be at counter height with glasses above and bowls and plates in the drawers underneath. With moving the broom closet, and making the upper deeper to accommodate a microwave, I actually gave you more dish storage than before.

Something like this:

{{!gwi}}
Just some thoughts.

bmorepanic: Actually we've given a lot of thought into making that New Door (which is currently a window) the main entry. However, the house is built onto a hill and there is a big drop there meaning we would have to rebuild the porch/staircase, which is possible, but not exactly in the budget right now. . .

As far as moving the range to the back wall, we really want to keep the window within the 67" framed out opening because the house is so old, we want to keep as much as the structure intact as possible so as to not making even more work to get it up to code.

I like rhome's layout (I like bmore's too but I read your response about the structure) and just wanted to add that unless you need to store something big like a vacuum, you can squeeze alot into a narrow space with a pullout broom closet to maximize the other available space on the sink wall. People have done this with as little as 4" of space. Here's a picture I wish I had seen before I redid my kitchen and there are some threads on these:

{{!gwi}}

Rats.

I do want to say that you really can't use 3 foot aisles because of the range and the ref and the dw.

Both a range and a counter depth ref stick out further than a counter - usually at least 3 inches and with a ref - sometimes as much as 6 inches by the time you're done with handles. You need to allow for your counter overhangs (which I did not either). In an aisle with a working counter on both sides, your aisle will be about 6" narrower to begin with.

So, on the ref aisle, we'll take worst case scenario and assume one of those two appliances stick out the full 6 inches making the aisle 30" where it's marked as 36". Now that 30" aisle needs the 1.5" counter overhang on the island side deducted for a net aisle width of 28.5". It wouldn't be so bad - but it's pinching closed the spaces where you're most likely to want a little room. You'd like to be able to stand in front of the ref as you open its doors and in front of the range's oven.

On the sink side, we'll start by deducting the full 3" that represents the counter overhang on both sides, the 36" aisle becomes 33". If you're thinking a farm sink, I'm thinking another 2-3 inches need to be deducted so we're done to 31". These days, the dw's have taller doors than they used to - around 28-29" - so the dw door will just fit, but completely block the aisle.

When I was at the showroom, they had 30" walkways, 36", 40" from cabinet to cabinet with granite overlay, etc. Honestly I had no problem with the 30", but I thought give it an extra 6". Most of this house (~1000sqft) is a little cramped. The bathroom is 5x8, the bedrooms 10x10, even the main entrance is only 37" (and that's the only way to get into the house!) Do I need more room to walk around my kitchen than to get in the house? I guess that's where I'm coming from.

Then again I need to measure carefully about the DW doors, it would really be a shame not to be able to open it :(

I left the island as large as I dared, but it could be smaller to increase aisles. Be wary that showrooms give an unrealistic feel for size. Things can look completely different in the scale of home, and especially when you're trying to accomplish things.

bmorepanic + others: if down the road we decide to put in the door where you drew it in, would it be a huge problem to have the chairs right in front of the door?

Obviously, we would need a larger walkway if we do this. How would it change how you did the layout?

The problem to solve is to allow people to be able to enter at any time, not just when other aren't seated.

A person takes up about 2 feet from the counter edge. The door itself needs some amount of room to swing. If you have a 3 foot door and seating directly in front and in the direction the door swings, you'd need about 5.5 feet (a little allowance in case a larger person is seated or someone sits back further) to the edge of the counter. If you have a 4 foot door as two 2-foot french doors, you'd need 4.5 feet. If the swings out into the porch, the door can be any size and the aisle can be 4 feet.

There are two possibles - don't use a section right in front of the door for seating, instead use part of the side and all of the end on the dining side. The other way is to look at whether shortening the island would allow a dedicated to seating block to be added on the dining room side - 30-36" wide by however long you can make it. 36" length is seating for three, 48" length is seating for 4 and 60" length is seating for 5.

If you'd rather narrow the island at a future time, plan on doing two counter materials on the island - say 2 feet of wood and 2 feet of rock (plus overhangs). When the time comes cut the wood so the depth of that side becomes 12-14". If you have some support on the ends or then add corbels, it'll work well. So if you start out with a 4 foot wide island and then move the door to a three foot wide inswing door, you can get the aisle to be five feet wide and yell fore! You could use a pair of two foot doors and a 42" wide island.

If you use laminate on the island, you don't need to care about using multiple materials - laminate is pretty inexpensive. You either get a new island top or refurbish your existing one but you aren't losing more than a few hundred bucks at most - not the big price tags that come from attempting to re-cut a rock counter. That can be done but...

Most fabricators do not want to touch any other fabricators work cause they don't know how it was done. So you'll pay premium price for them to come to your house, uninstall the counter, haul it back to their shop, re-cut it, haul the new counter back and re-install it.

Summarized - plan now about your counters and flooring under the current and revised seating areas.

I hope this is English and that it helps- I'm not sure.

OK--so basically I want to leave a 54" minimum walkway (which would leave me a 38" wide island--this is possible especially given how long it is (61")

Here's a new mock-up. Still deciding whether to put the MW up high (hard to reach + hot stuff = dangerous) or down low (hidden, but annoying to bend over.) I don't love the MW between the frig and range because it will be a convection MW and I worry about it overheating the frig. . . although there will be a panel in between them. I am considering putting it over by the dish/utensil storage area, but it seems very out of the way from the frig.

I moved the trash pull out over (although know you have to "enter" the cook area to get to it, but I think having the dishes/utersils/etc away from the cooking area is more important than having the trash pull out (plus now it's easier access for prepping on the island.) I don't know where we will use it more. DH is very opposed to having a trash pull out, but I convinced him to get one for double recycling (paper + plastic), figuring down the road he will start hating the stand alone trashcan (which he's planning to keep on the top left wall (under the mudroom.)

Question on island: is this too small? It's only 24"+15" deep or 39" total by 72". . . If we don't end up moving the entrance, will I forever regret having such a shallow island? Anyone out there with narrow islands love them?

I'm considering your suggestions about the sizing of the broom closet vs. drawer #1, however I don't think I need more than 24" for utensils, misc stuff in that drawer bank and I think a big broom/pantry closet is useful. . .

Also I widened the range/frig walkway to 42" to be extra cautious, but I think the cleanup area can remain 36" if nothing is pulling out into it. I could make it bigger though. I'm going to another showroom this weekend and I'll measure more carefully with granite/DW doors, etc to try to get a real feel.

Thanks in advance!

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.flickr.com/photos/benjen/4644885591/

Pretty much, all micro's except for the sharp drawer and a very few convection grill ones are hinged on the left. Be careful in choosing a model because of potential interference with the oven door, the cooking surface or the hood.

bmorepanic: If we go with a 36" standard door do you think it's possible to have seating adjacent to the door (i.e. to the left side of the island, not the bottom)?

As I add up the numbers, I'm confused:
1) Cabinets: 24"
2) Aisle: 45"
3) Door: 36"
Total: 105

This leaves 55" for an island and any extra clearance for seating, walking around, etc. Is this a really bad idea? I figure maybe 15" overhang, + 36" island, + 4" extra space.

In terms of the MW, I think I'd rather keep in in the island and out of sight, but still near the frig.

25.5" cabinets against wall plus 45" aisle plus 25.5" for one side of island, plus 15" overhang, plus 24" for seated person in the aisle, plus 36" door is 13" wide space for some excess between the door and seated people or for a wider island...

By my calculations that is 184" total and we only have 156" on that wall. . . Even if we take out the excess 13", that only leaves 171" :( Does this mean we shouldn't have seating or should remove an island?

Also, why 25.5" for cabinets?

What about 24" cabinets +45" aisle + 24" island + 15" overhang + 36" door + 11" for excess space between fully open door and island?

I'm think that maybe we should plan on having two-three chairs at the top left edge of the island or 36" and leave the bottom left part of the island that will be in front of the door for storage (maybe have a drawer set here or maybe curve the island in or maybe overhang?)