How wide is your refrigerator?

I adore both or beautybutdebtfree's pics. There are so many details in both of those pics that add so much character....the tiles, the simple (yet very present) details on the cabinets (the upper cabinets in the first pic grab my interest), the floors. Even if it's not your color palette....there's alot to notice there.

I plan to work within the confines of the space, but what about CEFreeman's suggestion of moving the dining hutch. Is that a possibility? Also, I'm intrigued....can you show us a picture of the ining hutch?

First swing.....

I didn't get too specific about where I would put pantries vs hutches, vs counters vs etc.....I think you probably need to figure out appliance placement first and then figure out how you want everything else to be placed. In order to do this, you'd need the ability to be able to make the cabinets as deep as you want.

If you keep all walls the way they are now, I like this floor plan. I like that the sink isn't all the way across from the stove, I like that you have a landing spaces for groceries to the fridge, I like that you can have an ample amount of counter space...... obviously the fridge and stove can be moved a foot here or a foot there. I think I'd be pretty happy with the function of this floor plan.

That is pretty good, mags! Good use of less than ideal space!

I know you said your sink was newish, but imagine if you could have a sink like the one in the link there. he has two prices listed, so goodness knows what he wants, but sinks come up all of the time for reasonable prices...you just have to lay in wait.

And when you think about the cost, remember, if you go for stone countertops, those drainboards are alot of countertop you don't have to pay for, and you also don't need to pay the price for a sink cut out to the fabricator:

Here is a link that might be useful: Sink in dundee florida

Oh wow...I never thought of the sink anywhere except of where it is under the window. Hmmm.....thinking...not a bad idea.

And, I'm not emotionally attached to the sink at all. It's a typical 18 gauge SS.

In this design, where would the DW go? That front corner is quite small so it wouldn't fit flush in there. Would next to the refrigerator work?

I have a small-ish white Carrera marble round table. My idea is to get matching counters. However, I know marble is extremely high-maintenance - although beautiful.

MagsNJ: That's probably the original sink that was in my house way back when!

You know, I like the look of it...and love it in your kitchen! It's so pretty! I've actually thought about it....

But, I really like having a deep sink to fill pots and wash dishes without risk of flooding the floor.

So...how long should I expect my kitchen to be in complete shambles? ((sigh))....I think it's going to be a while.

I have to get this floor refinished ASAP. Which means -- I have to remove the cabinets ASAP. That dirty, nasty tar paper adhesive stuff on the pine floors is just so gross. Plus, I don't want my pets exposed to it for a long time.

I just booked the appointment for the floors to be refinished - April 21st. So, I have to totally gut the kitchen prior to this date. (gasp)

As I have no idea as to floor plan right now, I'm worried I'm going to be living like I'm camping for the next 6 months.....

Maybe I made a mistake doing this now -- before I have a real plan.

I didn't realize how complex this was going to be. :(

For example, I know nothing about cabinets --- at all. I did some reading out here on some of the cabinet threads....holy cow! My head is spinning!

I haven't read all of the previous suggestions, but I think your best bet is to get a cabinet maker to make custom cabinets that will address all of the quirks of your kitchen AND maximize all of the unique potential it has. This is coming from someone who owns a unique 1916 house with all of its quirks and special needs.

The standard size cabinet boxes that you will find at IKEA or Lowes or any of the cabinet stores will not help you do justice to all of the potential you have. In some places you might want cabinets that are only 20" or 22" deep on the bottom. You could have something specially built to fill in that space where your dining room piece bumps into the kitchen.

If you shop around and do your homework, I think you can find someone who will build cabinetry that is appropriate to the era of your home and that will address your many concerns. And, the cost can be potentially the same as you'd be spending trying to fit in standard cabinetry. It will just be too difficult to try to work with typical standard sizes intended for a blank square or rectangular space.

I like the galley kitchen idea. How about putting the range across from the sink, and the fridge and MW... somewhere else?

This sink is deep:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-double-Cast-Iron-Farm-Farmhouse-Vintage-apron-Kitchen-Sink-legs-/291120525292?pt=Architectural_Garden&hash=item43c822afec#ht_720wt_916

I honestly couldn't imagine why you'd worry about overflowing the sink. To soak a pot, I put water and soap in the pot, normally the outside doesn't need soaking. The great thing about having a sink with the drainboards is that it gives you a large level of comfort with marble....anything that's sloppy, I do it on my drainboards. Cleans up like a dream.

You could put your dishwasher in alot of different places. First thought is to the left of the sink. I Personally would probably make the stoarage around the fridge just be tall pantries.

Here is a link that might be useful: Deeper sink

ankh, the only problem with that is that the fridge would have to go somewhere around where the range is now in my floorplan, and there's a window on one side and an ironing board cabinet on the other side that should be preserved if it can be. sorry, I didn't include them in my floorplan...I was in a hurry.

I second needinfo1's advice....it's either the wonky walls go or you need custom cabinets. In the end, I personally think custom cabinets are the better idea (which is why I went that way in my home). Feel free to email me and I can give you an idea of what my cabinets cost so you can compare.

If I were you, I'd call the flooring people, postpone the job, and put cardboard or something down on the floor over the tarry stuff. I'd reschedule the floor people the day after I finalized my floorplan and ordered the cabinets.

This is how it works......The floor can get done very quickly...they'll need about 3 days......the cabinets take 2-4 weeks after the contract is signed and deposit is given to be built and THEN they work you into their schedule for installation. After you finalize your floorplan and order the cabinets, that's when I'd start focusing on countertop. Right now, all I'd be focusing on is floorplan and appliances......and until I had that nailed down I wouldn't gut the kitchen b/c you want to minimalize the amount of time spent without one.

PS....you need to figure out a way to keep your animals out fo the kitchen for the remodel if you don't have one.......I put up kid gates.....not only do you not want them stepping on the tar, you don't want them stepping on the wood stain, or the finish, nosing about any installations....there may be holes in the floor under your cabinets.....there are really any number of pitfalls for them.......mine were really accepting of the kid gates....I've actually left them up.

I agree that custom is the way to go. You do not have a cookie-cutter space, and you need to utilize every inch!

I signed a contract for my custom cabinets in early March, after talking with the cabinet maker in January and going through a couple of iterations of the plans. He put me on the schedule when I signed the contract and made the first payment - and I was on the calendar for the beginning of July, 4 months later. I wasn't surprised - he has a terrific reputation in town, and has been around for 25 years. I would be worried about a builder who was sitting around waiting for me to show up.

I forgot to add - can you gut the lower part of the kitchen to get the floors done, then put it back together the same way, until you're ready to remodel? It wouldn't be easy, and it probably wouldn't be pretty, but it solves the time crunch problem.

needinfo1 and the rest really have given the best advice you are likely to get: find a qualified cabinetmaker. You have potential for an amazing space, even with its quirk; that is why you bought the house, right?

Try not to get bogged down in too many details. Education is important, but there are lots of options and really only a few that will work for you in your kitchen.

You should, however, have at least a general plan/timeframe. Having realistic expectations as to how long the individual processes should help you to know better.

I second whoever said to postpone your floor refinishing and put down some cardboard or thin luan (that you can reuse to protect the refinished floors while the rest of the remodel happens) for now.

Here's an idea for the piece of bump-out (behind dining hutch) wall: (left-to-right) drainboard/sink/butcher block-counter-over-trash-pull-out, using below: ($262 including shipping on the sink)

Here is a link that might be useful: sink link

Or this one. You have your cabinet guy build a drawer unit or dishwasher cubby under the left drainboard, a trash pull out under the right drainboard, and one of those kewl shaped skirts under the sink basins (like the two pictures I posted above)! $312 incl shipping on the sink

Here is a link that might be useful: two drainboard stainless sink

This post was edited by beautybutdebtfree on Fri, Apr 11, 14 at 14:17

MagsNJ: would you please send me your email address? I do want to ask you some Qs about cabinets -- I love yours - especially the sink cabinet. My email is:
KimberFL at hot mail dot com (spelled this way to avoid Bots on this public page...).

I actually got a referral to a custom cabinet maker (from the floor guy...). I definitely have thought about this as a way to go due to the wonky-kitchen layout.

My pets will be locked out of the kitchen during the floor refinish. Just for now, it's open. The floor is just so gross right now....I just don't want them walking in there. I have the original 'swinging door' and can just close it with a doorstop. Easy.

Annkh: I was thinking of reconstructing the kitchen in that "Hillbilly-esque" manner until I could find a workable plan.

It definitely won't be pretty!!!!

I'm on a roll, now! Imagine an awesome deco tile wall behind this that you could easily do yourself!

This post was edited by beautybutdebtfree on Fri, Apr 11, 14 at 14:34

Beautybutdebtfree:
Wow! You drew that? You're pretty talented! I liked those cute kitchen pics that you posted, btw!

The doors are lovely!

I just made an appointment with the custom cabinet guy for next week.....we'll see how that goes.

Would you be willing to entertain shifting that great ironing board cabinet over to the left, closer to the window? Then your fridge could slide back into that corner right where it seems to want to live! Also, how far from the floor is the trim of window #2? Thanks.

This is apropos of nothing but could you be so kind as to show us the built in hutch in the dining room?

Here's some pics of the china cabinet which causes the bump out in the kitchen.

It's not 'fancy', but I like it. It's the focal point of the room when you enter the house. The door are long gone, but were probably glass.

My house was a rental and had many, many owners over the years, so it's suffered through a lot of bad remodel decisions.

Another angle...excuse the clutter. I had to remove a cabinet and my marble table in the kitchen to start the demo.

Another angle....

Oh, I LOVE it!

We had one in the house I grew up in. Wish I'd thought to put one in my house.

I love it! Don't touch it. That bump out is going to add interest and character

It's great! I would definitely leave it and when budget permits I would look into restoring the now-missing cabinet doors with careful reproductions.

Say, depending on what happens in the kitchen, wouldn't it be neat to open the area in the hutch where the mirror is as a passthrough to the kitchen? (maybe with little tiny doors along the back to close off as needed...!)

I updated a small 1930's kitchen with a tough layout and three doorways. I'm linking it here in case it gives you some ideas. I used a 24" wide all refrigerator and a separate under counter freezer. I would recommend looking into a 24" fridge/freezer to save on space. I also had the ironing board cabinet door shortened so it would open over a new counter.

I look forward to watching your kitchen take shape!
Lisa

Here is a link that might be useful: ljwrar's kitchen

>wouldn't it be neat to open the area in the hutch where the mirror is as a passthrough to the kitchen?

Actually, if you look at efficient house plan designs from the 20s and 30s they often show this: a back panel that can be slid open from the kitchen side to replace the dishes without having to go out into the dining room.

But with saintpfla's layout problems, I'd put that way down the list of priorities. But I also wouldn't try to move that from where it is now.

Thanks everyone! I really like the china cabinet -- and, I do plan on either finding salvage doors to replace the missing ones or having some custom made. It's a nice focal point but also provides much needed storage as well.

Some homes in the area do have the 'pass-through' feature in the china cabinet. Mine does not and I do like the old mirror. It's in very good condition....it's miraculous that it has survived over the years of gutting the house.

Virtually every interesting built-in has been removed in this house due to being a rental property. It's missing the colonnades and window seats as well. The window seats I'm fine with but the colonnades I would also like to find salvage and replace.

The kitchen had built-in banquette seating and table (per the outline on the floor...), but, I also found the original banquette table in the garage. I don't have any interest in adding it back to the kitchen due to space,, but was surprised to find it.

I'm still not sure what to do about a floor plan.....just keep thinking and thinking about it until my head hurts....

I've been wondering if it would work to add a sort of window seat area next to the window near the current refrigerator location... Maybe a bad idea, but I do love window seats and I've never had a house that had one! Was that where the built-in banquette used to be?

Yes - that is exactly where the former built-in banquette was. Attached is a pic....you can see the floor outline of where it was located.

I totally understand why they removed the banquette. Probably, refrigerators came into use (vs. an ice-box on the porch...) and they needed the space to put it in the kitchen.

I found the original table in the garage being used as a tool/project work space. It's pretty beat-up now, but it was neat finding it and figuring out what it was used for.

Here's another outline of the floor

I really like magnsj's galley idea. I figure that if you take the wall to wall measurement of the bumpout to the wall opposite it, you have about 98" wall to wall to work with. Adding 24" deep standard cupboards on either side (with a slightly short 1" overhang) gets you to 48" from counter to counter, which is a very respectable width for a galley kitchen.

I would also suggest that that 32" wide, deep corner to the right of the bump out would be an interesting place for a 30" wide fridge, single door opening to the right, no handle on the door. This would allow the front of the fridge to be flush with the cabinets and not protrude into your 48" walkway. Then small cupboards on either side of a stove on the bumpout with sink and dishwasher opposite, then you could actually have a banquette at the bottom if you wanted.

I do think a carpenter should be able to move that ironing board cabinet closer to the window - it really shouldn't be a big deal at all. I would not let that get in your way. The fridge really would work well down at the bottom of the room there.

Thanks for the suggestions on layout.

I have been thinking a lot about the galley layout as well.

I also postponed the floor refinish until I have a handle on the cabinet and floor layout. I just covered the floor with paper drop-cloth material for now. It's a bit of pressure off for the moment because it was scheduled for Monday. Now, I can take a little time to consider options.

The cabinet builder comes by this week...it will be interesting to see what he says.

I've been plugging away at my totally DIY kitchen project since Christmas (did pay for counter install labor, though, since they are stone). I can say that each time I've run into a snag, or delay, or even period of burn-out, it's been for the better! Each time I've come up with better ideas, better products, a better way to accomplish something, when I've allowed the time to let the solution emerge. I'm so glad I didn't force a schedule on myself, because what's emerging is so much better than it would have been. It has really taught me patience, and focus!

This post was edited by beautybutdebtfree on Tue, Apr 15, 14 at 7:38

BeautyBDF:

That's great advice. I'm feeling a little "over-whelmed" with this kitchen 'stuff' right now. Plus, the extra-clutter that is created from the cabinet I removed and everything else.

I'm sorta hating this idea of remodel right now......

I still don't know what I want for a floor plan.

Btw...I did my bath remodel a year ago.....I knew EXACTLY what I what I wanted. It was completed in 2-3 months.

The kitchen has me stumped - still.

Everything option looks great! Everything is pretty. I just don't know the 'best' option for the layout.

All I do know is...

I want white cabinets in this style:
http://www.crown-point.com/arts-and-crafts/index.html

I want white carerra marble (or maybe granite which looks like marble?) counters.

I want more storage space to remove counter clutter. My dream is to have a clutter-free counter.

The solutions often present themselves after you get enough information. For example, you are harvesting a ton of ideas from GW posters. Your cabinet maker will have ideas, too. Houzz pictures have a lot of ideas.

It's like a wheel of fortune puzzle. When you don't know the solution, it's because you don't have enough letters, yet. You have to plug away, bide your time, study your objectives and budget, and fill in each letter, until you can solve the puzzle.

You have a WONDERFUL heritage space, surrounded by an entire house of heritage space. This context, along with your desire to mesh with it period-wise, will aim you. Your budget will help with boundaries. Next, get your objectives very clear. What do you want from your project, from your space? Exactly how are you going to spend time in it, how are you going to use the space. This will suggest a lot of things, from whether you need that full size fridge, to whether it's a good investment to go custom on cabinetry to maximize storage inches. Let your objectives help you solve the puzzle, so get as clear as you can on them!

And allow yourself time, flexibility, and your "wants" - if you are stubborn, and resourceful enough, a solution WILL emerge!!!

Sending you good thoughts, loving your project!

BBDF

Oh, yeah, and two more things:

1) Set up Plan B. By this, I mean, get basic functionality somewhere else, while the remodel drags on. That way you are not holding your breath, without a way to wash dishes, or boil water, etc. So, alternate kitchen sink, way to cook or heat food, etc.

2) Set up either a clean zone, or a crap zone, or both. If you have a little island of clean or crap set aside, then you can go forward for as long as you need with larger areas being in construction/transition, and just tell yourself they are GOING to be in construction/transition as long as it takes, but if you need a sanity break you can sneak off to your "clean" corner and pretend it's bigger than it is, or dump the "stuff" in your crap corner, to put is SOMEWHERE.

Those zones may move around as you do different things in your project, but mentally having them defined is a sanity-saver for me!

BBDF

I love Robo's idea of a fridge in the corner! What an efficient use of a difficult space. It isn't perfect fridge placement in a dream kitchen, but I think there's room there. And you can easily put a cabinet above it without building it in, saving precious inches.

Hang in there, SaintP! I worked on kitchen plans for my house off and on for 15 years (nothing was torn out, however). It was never quite right. Then, one night I hit on a new angle, and the whole thing fell into place. Within weeks I met with a cabinet maker, and started the ball rolling toward full remodel. Now that it's done, I wish I'd had the new kitchen years ago - but the plans weren't right years ago, so I'm glad I waited.

You'll get it right, and will forget about how long it took to get there.

I hope that you get some good pricing from the cabinetmaker. I also hope that he can make frameless, if you are interested in that, since those do give you a bit more interior room; I think that you could get an arts and crafts look (love it btw) with frameless.

Another advantage to having the cabinets made is that you are not locked into stock sizes. So, say if you want a 30" sink you don't have to buy a 36" cabinet, you can have it made just large enough to accommodate that particular sink. Shopping fixtures like sinks, garbage disposals, pullouts, faucets etc this early in the design process can help you know what you really want and what you need your design to have room for (beyond the frig and dishwasher which are your major problems) without requiring that you actually buy the things now. I remember threads where folks were desperately looking for a certain size fixture to fit the space they had designed -- but it just didn't exist.

I think that there is more than one "best" layout, if we are excluding recessing the frig into the utility room, but they all will involve moving the sink. Well, keeping stove, frig and sink all within a few steps of each other, instead of having one across the room, may be more best than some others. Think about which 2 of the 3 you would prefer to have close. In your space actually nothing will be all that far, will it?

You mentioned a small table -- do you want to have room for it in the kitchen too? Like under one of the windows?

It took me multiple readings of this thread to understand your room's dimensions and obstacles but I think I finally got it. Think being the operative word here. I'm sure I missed something. ;-)

Anyhoo, it seems to me that the biggest hurdle you face is having too many interruptions on each length of wall. I agree that if at all possible, the DR hutch and built-in ex-ironing board cab should be kept. And it seems a shame not to take advantage of those recesses on each side of the DR hutch.

So I turned my attention to the opposite wall and and played with the idea of moving the doorway from the outer room into the kitchen. I realize this means moving utilities and all that but it might be cost effective if it means you don't need to do as much customization of cabinetry in your kitchen. I just checked and with a few minor tweaks, you can make this plan work with Ikea cabinets.

This is what I came up with:

The outer room will be on large space, a mud room with utilities (behind doors), W/D and whatever else you want to keep out there.

Moving the door down to the end gave me enough room to put the fridge, DW, sink and range all in one section of your kitchen, creating a very efficient work zone for 1 cook. The fridge is slightly recessed into the wall so that it's bulk is less obvious.

The DR hutch is bordered by 2 pull-out pantry cabs with a shallow cabinet between them. You could mimic the DR hutch, giving a nod to your home's past. It also gives you a decent section of shallow counter to set down bags of groceries or a place for small appliances such as toaster, coffee maker, etc. You can fit the GE spacemaker MW above (it fits in a 12" deep upper cabinet). You could also make this section standard depth, sitting slightly proud of the pantry cabs on either side. You'd still have a 49.5" aisle, which will help your smallish space feel less squished.

As someone above suggested, I moved the ex-ironing board cabinet. I shifted it over towards the window, next to the range so that it can continue its life as your spice cabinet (love this!).

With all the storage on the DR hutch wall, I think that you just might be able to go without upper cabinets elsewhere, which will also help your kitchen feel spacious.

You can fill in the old doorway space with an interior window - fixed or working, your choice. If the view isn't nice but you want the light, put in a real or fake stained glass window or other type of obscure glass. Or you can just make it a wall.

Note: aisle measurement is counter edge to counter edge. I assumed a 1.5" counter overhang.

PS You can use Ikea boxes and get cab fronts made to fit in a style you prefer. Still quite cost effective. Hopefully someone else can remember the cab company that does this because the name has completely slipped my mind.

BBDF: great suggestions! I really like the 'clean zone' and 'crap zone'. Just finding a space to drop everything will be useful.

I'm normally a very decisive person - so this, "Gee, I just don't know..." is sort of a new experience for me!

Annkh: I think you are correct....I need to move past this 'perfect placement' idea. It's helpful that everyone recognizes the challenges in this space and that it's not something that I've 'missed' in my perspective.

Raee: Laughing at your comment...."Think about which 2 of the 3 you would prefer to have close. In your space actually nothing will be all that far, will it?"

LOL...pretty much sums it up! ;)

Lisa_a: thank you for taking the time to review my floor-plan and make suggestions to the layout.

I've attached a pic of the mudroom area....it's more narrow and small than the sketch/footprint seems. Behind the levour doors are the W/D.

Yes, I do have a small, round white marble table. I rather enjoy my morning cup of coffee and looking out at the garden. The simple pleasures of life kind of thing. ;)

But, if it's a casualty of the new design, I'll figure out something else....

I wasn't going by your sketch - that would have been foolish since it was so out of scale - I was going by the dimensions you posted in your sketch on Thu, Apr 10, 14 at 12:10 and an earlier photo. Unless the posted dimensions of 125 L x 94 W (assuming this is for the entire space, not just the area your cute kitties are occupying in the above photo) are incorrect, you have the room to do what I'm proposing.

Those dimensions 'should' be correct...I did it from the wall behind the WD to the opposite wall.

It's such a small space, it's hard to envision room for anything....maybe just room enough for my cats. ;)

'Those dimensions 'should' be correct...I did it from the wall behind the WD to the opposite wall.'

The dimensions might be correct - but they don't match the sketch at all. That's why a layout drawn on graph paper with all of the dimensions correctly measured and marked is what is needed to do a workable redesign for the kitchen.

graph paper is online - free.

then we can actually visualize the space that lines up with the dimensions.

do you plan to keep your fridge? your stove? open to changing out either? what size of a sink do you want?