I do believe in counseling but I hesitate when someone thinks the answer to a child's problems are to 'take him to counseling' like it's going to fix them. Some kids may respond well and others may resent that someone is trying to fix them.

I think the first thing you and your boyfriend need to do is create 'house rules'. There cannot be different rules for his and hers. There can be different rules for older vs. younger, such as different times and maybe a little more freedom as they get older. BM can have her opinion on what her son did and you can tell him that. "Your mom is entitled to her opinion that you were just defending yourself, but in this home, there is no hitting. Period." At her house, she may allow it but at your house, it's no. It took us almost two years with my husband's daughter to stop saying 'but my mom lets me ______'. and we answer, that's nice, but in our house, we make the rules.

At one time, I had four pre teen boys that wrestled, hit, played pranks, and messed around (sometimes until someone got hurt). Two were mine, two were my exBF's. There were times I felt like I needed a black & white striped shirt and a whistle because I think a lot of that rough play is normal, but there HAS to be boundaries and if they cross the line, there are consequences. You and your boyfriend get to decide where the line is, not his ex & not your ex. (unless you guys get to tell BM what is or isn't acceptable in HER house. not likely)

Your BF needs to have a talk with his ex and explain this to her. He may need to do it many times before she gets it. It will be more effective if he uses an "I" message and keeps it about the kids, not his authority or her lack of authority. Here's an example:

What NOT to say:

"You have no right to tell our kids what they can or can't do in our house. It's MY house and we'll do what we want and you can just mind your own business."

What he COULD say:

"I am having a problem that our son believes it's okay to handle a problem with physical violence. I would really appreciate your support in showing him other ways to handle things when he's faced with a situation. I'm afraid that if he doesn't learn to handle things differently, you know, with words instead of hitting back, that he won't always be able to get out of a situation and he could really be harmed if he gets into fights with someone that is a better fighter or maybe has a weapon. That isn't what I want for our son."

What mother is going to argue with that? I may be in a fantasy world, but I don't think I would want my kids to think fighting is the first option, maybe the last and I would suggest if a kid wants to learn to defend themselves, get them into martial arts.

Hitting is never right.

I understand that your BFs children have been through a tough time, which is even more reason they should have cousneling. I would emphasize to BF that these issues will only get worse, and he doesnt want to get a call from teh police when the boy hits someone smaller at school.

Hugs and good luck.

I demanded that BF start counseling for the kids for two reasons. First of all, the court has ordered it and both parents are stalling. Not sure why he is, other than a general distrust of the whole "counseling" thing. The second is that these kids are really being put through the wringer. I don't think they are getting the support they need to be able to deal with this ugly, ugly divorce.

I've been through a divorce myself, so I know how intense the emotions can get. By the time a divorce happens, trust has pretty much been destroyed and then a mother is supposed to "let" her children go with this person she doesn't trust anymore. Its easy for divorcing parents to forget that the children belong to both parents and both parents have a right to parent their children.

I wasn't there, I don't know what their marriage was like and I realize I've only heard one side. BF admits he did some things and said some things that he wished he hadn't. He was unhappy for a long time before he left and she apparently "had no idea". I don't know if that is true and I don't really care. Bottom line, if one person is unhappy enough to leave a marriage and the other partner has no idea, it kind of says a lot about the state of the marriage, doesn't it?

Those details of how their marriage ended and why are none of my concern. However, what is my concern is how this woman is manipulating the children. These are some of the statements I've heard from these kids:
* Mommy says you never even tried to work on your marriage you just ran away
* Mommy says that if you loved me you would come back home
* Mommy says that you don't love us and you have a new family you love more
* Mommy says you don't give her any money and we have no money for food (He gives her $7,000 a month for alimony/cs)
* Mommy says the only reason you want us is because you don't want to give her money
* Mommy says we will have no place to go and we'll have to live in an apartment and sleep on the floor (BF has agreed for them to stay in marital home until both boys are 18)
* Mommy says you never really wanted us
* Mommy says we don't have to stay with you; we can stay with friends while she is gone
*Mommy says we don't have to follow your rules because we don't really live with you.

And on, and on, and on...
And yes they are British kids so they really do call them Mommy and Daddy

"* Mommy says you never really wanted us "

This has nothing to do with your post, but my parents divorced when I was 14. My mom, in her effort to make my dad look like a bad guy I guess, she would tell me how he 'dragged' her to the chapel to get married (she was pregnant with my brother at the time) and I guess she wanted me to envision her as a victim that never wanted to get married and he 'made' her, like he held a gun to her head. (perhaps she was, in her mind, justifying why she cheated on him) Then she would say how "HE WANTED FOUR KIDS, I ONLY WANTED TWO." as if he also FORCED her to have more kids than she wanted (and thus she was 'overwhelmed by too many kids??? was she blaming the fact that we existed for her affair? I hadn't thought of that before). In her infinite wisdom, she hadn't considered that she was telling her tale of woes to, not only her daughter, but her third born. I guess she never considered how it made me feel to hear her say that. (and she said it many times, not just once) It actually made me feel that my dad wanted me but she didn't. She actually made herself look like the bad guy and she didn't even realize it. It's just another example of how one's own bitter feelings or anger at their ex, can cloud what should be common sense and sensitivity. It's too bad parents (or people in general) don't realize that things can be interpreted in more than one way, depending on the listener.

"if one person is unhappy enough to leave a marriage and the other partner has no idea, it kind of says a lot about the state of the marriage, doesn't it?"

No, it says something about the person who is "unhappy." Long before he or she is "unhappy enough to leave the marriage," it is his or her responsibility to open his mouth and SAY SOMETHING, such as "we need to go to counseling," or "something is bothering me." Too many people assume that other people can read their minds, and then blame them for not doing whatever it is that they had no idea they were expected to do.

OTOH, a lot of people who have an affair become "unhappy for a long time," only in retrospect.

I think the father's boys need their own room, even if it means that the adults sleep on the couch.

My boys don't have there own room either, so just why would BF boys' have that? Why would you not say that MY boys, who also come from a divorced family and have a dad who has pretty much disappeared from their lives, should have their own rooms.

We don't currently HAVE enough rooms for anyone to not share. Yes, we had JUST moved from my 4 bedroom home and the 5 bedroom house we were to purchase, which is a short sale like all the other homes on the market in this area, has taken months longer to close than it was supposed to. So we leased a 3 bedroom condo because at that point it didn't look like he would get custody for MONTHS. But suddenly, boom, it did. So, please explain how you think that is going to work??

I work very hard to make sure that things are as fair as they possibly can be in this situation. But please TOS, explain to me how displacing everyone else in the family is going to help this situation?? Will that suddenly cause their BM to stop bad-mouthing dad?? Will shoving all my boys in one room together while his two get their own rooms do anything, absolutely anything, to create the peaceful, respectful environment we'd like in our home?

I pretty much knew that comment would dredge you up because I've read your comments and know your story. If I can't begin to assume to know the details of the end of their marriage, you could you? Actually, reading your comments has given me GREAT insights on the woman I am dealing with.

And by the way...when my ex husband informed me that he was leaving "much to my suprise"...after a short time of introspection I realized that it wasn't really a suprise at all I just didn't want to face reality. I myself had been unhappy too, but just convinced myself I wasn't. Once I realized that, I was able to go on with my life.

It's probably going to be another friday (NCP time) night unpopular Nivea on GW...but what I believe TOS was saying was to put both of your BF's sons together in the same room without your sons.

I can understand this logic. Put your 3 boys together in their own room. The difference is that your boys have had one stable rock while BF's boys are being put in between a rock and a hard place.

I really do not understand the need for custody when your BF is apparently not even settled into a household that would accomodate ALL of the children involved...but that's only my opinion.

Yes, nivea, you are correct - I think it would be much better for all the boys to share a room with their own sibling(s) with whom they have grown up. None of them need the added stress of having to deal with an additional roommate.

"I myself had been unhappy too, but just convinced myself I wasn't."

Or perhaps it was the other way around, that after your husband left you convinced yourself that you had been unhappy.

How exactly can you be unhappy while thinking you are happy? If you think you are happy, you are, by definition.

OK, focusing on the hitting instead of the who shares a room.
I will share my experiences in hopes that it will help you.

My FDH's son is 9 (I call him A__ on here) and has some problems with hitting.
When he at BM's mom's place, he is allowed to battle with his 10yo cousin without repercussions. The cousin is a dreadful bully and is AWFUL to FDH's son, but A__ should still not be responding with violence.

So this carries over to school and other social situations: Just yesterday, a boy in his class was repeatedly kicking a soccer ball into his face, and after telling the other boy half-a-dozen times to stop and that he was getting mad, A__ took some swings at the other boy. While I think I probably would have felt compelled to punch the kid too, this is not an acceptable response.
We discussed with him that while he shouldn't let anyone push him around and kick a ball in his face, there are better ways to respond... He had to write out 10 reasons not to hit, and 5 things to do instead of hit. He also went to bed early last night.
If FDH's son started a fight out of nowhere (which he has done), there would be stiffer consequences... But when he is being deliberately provoked, by someone trying to make him angry, and he just responds poorly, we feel that it's more of a "good decision making" lesson time.

We have worked long and hard on anger management, and IMO, the best way is to help him come up with alternate options (like walk away, tell them to stop, and so on) and "make" him feel remorseful about it by coming up with why it's wrong. Maybe that would help with your family?
I don't mean wrack the poor kid with guilt, but coaching them to feel a little remorse it OK in my books. Like write an apology letter? Or do what another SM on here does and make kids hold hands while saying five nice things about the other?

Ceph has given you great advice here!

I had to giggle at this "Or do what another SM on here does and make kids hold hands while saying five nice things about the other? "

though I know it wasn't meant funny, I could just picture my SS's & BS doing this and saying very naughty things like "J__cuts really big farts!"-not really nice, but they were older teens soo...I think it's actually a great idea for younger kids and will keep this idea for g-son.

I do think this type of rough housing is normal for boys this age. Thinking back to when my s-sisters & I were teens I think we were at least 50 times worse and beat the crap out of each other on a daily basis up to & including holding each other down & spitting on faces-I know, BAD!

We didn't go through counseling or anything, but my s-dad & mother were a united front & never undermimed each other. You can't control what BM say's but your DH & you can support each other and the house rules about no violence and maybe need to have some consequences in place for when it occurs. Like no computer for 3 days if he gave three punches, take away the video game/tv or something like that? Grounding never worked for us, we either made my parents more miserable or snuck out the windows after dark.

~Cat

:-) I am the sm that makes my kids hold hands and say 5 nice things to each other. I actually got this from my mother when us kids would go at each other's throat. At the very least it calms down the situation and forces them to think about the other person ... no matter how poed they are... and we dont let them get by with nonsense like "I like your shirt" ..well I bought that shirt so that is saying more about my taste than something nice about them. but aside from that
I would talk to mom ... or at least try to but nonetheless I would let ss know that regardless hitting is never okay in your home... and in reality it is not okay in life. It can land you in trouble and these days jail.

Momof4, I think it's a wonderful thing! It still makes me giggle though thinking of using it in our situation with older teen boys (when we got together, grown now). But I do see the wonderful potential for this to really defuse an angry situation. I admire you being this quick thinking, I'd have never thought of that!

I'm going to suggest it to G-son's daycare, they just seem lost on what to do with fighting/biting 4 yr olds..

~Cat

Punching someone in the stomach, not once but several times, isn't horseplay & rough-housing;
it's assault.

This has to have strong consequences if the older boy isn't to become a grown-up bully & abuser, but in the practical world...

you must protect your young son.

whatever it takes.

I'm sorry.

My two oldest DDs used to fight so bad, it was terrible. I'd make them sit on the floor across from each other a couple of feet away and stare deeply into each other's eyes. They couldn't move, couldn't talk, use their hands, etc. just stare at each other. It never failed that they'd be giggling hysterically in a very few minutes.