energyrater - nice post and so accurate!

+1

Anyone claiming anything about the 15% mark without considerable diagnostics (and even then it is nearly impossible) is blowing smoke.

In terms of savings, some folks will see less, some will see more.

Every home is different and ever window is as well.

We typically see larger realized savings for client when we are replacing window and/or storm combos that don't seal well.

Air carries exponentially more air with it than does radiation, convection, or conduction and when you have gaps, the energy is being lost on air quite quickly.

When I replaced my Pella Proline casement windows with Marvin Ultimate casements, the result was more a "quality of life" improvement that I could not quantify into dollars and cents. In other words, the kitchen and master bedroom where I replaced the windows were so much more comfortable, it was a pleasure. No more ice dams along the sill, no more drafts, no more struggling with jamming open or closed, and no more looking at brown rotted corners. So, I have no idea at all what I might have saved in energy costs - I am sure there have been some savings. As the CR article mentioned, the savings would be a fraction of the thousands I spent for new windows. But I live in this home every day, in a harsh climate in winter. So, as the Amex ads go, the improvement was "priceless".

Well said.

Couldn't have said it better Mrs. Nyefnyef!!

Often what is overlooked is the additional functionality and "micro" climate improvements.

Sometimes, you just cant get a room comfortable despite what you do to it and windows can have a dramatic improvement as you noted in some of those cases.

You can't put a price on getting some liveable space back in your home.

+1
"Anyone claiming anything about the 15% mark without considerable diagnostics (and even then it is nearly impossible) is blowing smoke."

I've done considerable diagnostics in my 15+ years,
and stand by the max 15% savings.
I'm not alone in the diagnostics & same findings,
from smarter folks than I.

"In terms of savings, some folks will see less, some will see more."

agreed. some will see 7% some 10% and some 15%
and all %'s inbetween.

"Every home is different and ever window is as well."

agree again. but there are many things to do to
achieve comfort that have little to do with replacing windows.
air sealing windows, weatherstripping, are the first step.
exterior shadings, awnings, plantings all beat heat/cold
before they get into the house.
when I test homes the leakage is usally at window to
frames, frames to walls & each board of frame.
aprons to sills. caulk and air seal the window.
in some areas tints can be applied to single pane
windows.
you could do all these things and spend a portion of
the window replacement costs.

"We typically see larger realized savings for client when we are replacing window and/or storm combos that don't seal well."

replacement is much more costly than air sealing.

"Air carries exponentially more air with it than does radiation, convection, or conduction and when you have gaps, the energy is being lost on air quite quickly. "

somewhat true. but not getting into the long details
of that one tonight.

what most people experience is simple thermodymanics
in the winter when they are closet to a single pane window. heat goes to cold. body heat is lost to cold transfer of the window. it isn't limited to single pane,
but also to double pane with clear glass.
low e coatings (located on different glass surfaces for hot & cold climates) either reflect heat out of the house (hot climates), or back into the house (cold climates)

I'm not selling windows so I don't have a dog in the fight
other than advising people to realize that window change outs are costly with little improvment in energy
savings. its frustrating to have ahomeowner call me after
spending thousands of dollars for windows with bogus claims.

efficient homes are comfortable homes.

I do understand the reasoning for people changing to
double pane/triple pane windows for noise reduction.

the one thing I seldom see on this fourm is discussions
of solar heat gain coefficients, u-factors...visible light..
& air infiltration numbers.
shopping by NFRC label is the common ground of all windows. and if the mfg doesn't have the independent third party testing & verification of NFRC...then the window shouldn't even be considered.

there are many ways to get liveable space back into
the home. air sealing, insulation, duct sealing &
sizing the hvac system.
all things not consitered by window salesmen..or at
least not shared with homeowners.
they are there to say what they need to say to sell
the most expensive window to the homeowner.

houses are a system, each componet has to work with
the next componet. there isn't a miracle one componet
that solves the comfort issues.

Energy Rater,

I need you to come out with me on much of the projects that we look at.

Point of clarification, I wasn't referring to you with the "blowing smoke" comment but the window sales people that make such claims and even grander ones.

You are correct that in many cases a replacement window = air sealing (with some tangible improvements in R-Value as well).

That being said, you physically cannot air seal or even make remotely functional many of the windows that we see.

The double pane wood windows that we see in track built homes are the absolute worst abominations and are physically "busted". There is not amount of weatherstripping or caulking that you can apply to make them seal and most are beyond repair in other areas.

Many of the folks that we see with storm windows and single pane want to get rid of their storms for looks.

Couple that with the fact that if I put in a relatively tight exterior storm window with a leaky primary, I just created a nice frost detail on their home and they wont see through the storm for about 3 months.

The part about air was supposed to read "Air carries more energy" not "air carries more air". Typing too fast and not enough coffee I guess.

Replacement is more costly than air sealing but it doesn't address what are the majority of the issues with most clients windows.

We probably air seal and insulate about 40-50% of our window clients homes because we educate them on the benefits and most are savvy shoppers that want tight, efficient, and comfortable homes.

I would love to do 100% but many folks are calling us for other than energy and comfort issues.

When I replaced my windows last fall, it wasn't really about energy savings. It was to replace windows that leaked like a sieve and made the entire house drafty. That and a prowler with a hand tool could have gotten in. And screens that fell out on their own.

I'm much happier now with my new windows and my heating bills have gone down, as well. ;)

Linda

You will save money, how much is hard to say. That said, i agree with the other poster. The real pay off is when you can now stand by a window and not feel a draft or notice how warm your bedrooms are now.
Its all about comfort. Think about this, does it really matter how much money you save if you are still cold in the winter? A good window will make your home much more comfortable in the winter as well as the summer.

ww,
thanks for the invite!
my post was not to get into a debate between
window salesman & home diagnostics.

one sells products, the other finds the defeciencies
of the total house & breaks it down into what
pays within a reasonable time frame to replace/repair/
upgrade.

not apples to apples, more like nuts to watermelons.

the point was to make an article with fact based
realistic savings for window replacement available
to people who may not have seen the unbiased
article.

some windows are beyond rehabbing.
other houses have location to trains, airplanes
that have noise issues.
these ware exceptions rather than norm.

think about this: if you spend $15,000 on new
windows & are still cold/hot...was it a good choice?
or would those thousands of dollars been better spent?

personally I like all the facts before a major purchase.
rather than finding out all the facts afterwards.

that said, I do understand homeowner's defending
their spending. the $$ are gone, so therefore it
was a good choice. given what they knew at the time.
my post was to present unbiased facts for those
who haven't spent the thousands as yet.

Good link energy rater, although I have to take issue with your characterization of this forum and its contributors.

1) U-factors, shgc, vt, ai, etc are discussed with regularity here
2) When it is not, it is generally because the posters have more pointed, specific questions about other areas of window replacement
3) There are no "40% energy savings" type window salesmen here. In fact, a fair contingent of the regular contributors here are certified home performance professionals.

On the topic at hand, there is a pretty significant number of variables that factor into how much energy savings will come by replacing windows, but again, I'd agree that 10-15% is probably attainable. Much like any other home improvement project, window replacement should really be looked at in the totality of the circumstances, rather than strictly in energy savings terms, be it by window salesmen, or by those that seek to discredit them. The most recent cost vs value reports put window replacement in the range of 60-75% return on investment (in regard to increased home value), then factor in some energy savings along with the ease of use and appearance considerations. All in all, it is a pretty worthy investment, albeit not on energy savings alone.
Lastly, as much as we all despise the sleazy 40% savings energy savings guys--- and rightfully so--- I think that the backlash from some folks in the home performance community against replacement windows is past the point of being constructive and actually undermines their credibility. Are window openings typically a major source of leakage during a blower door test? No. That said, cummulatively they can be a factor (certainly they can on room comfort), and the effect on the average r factor of a homes sidewalls when going from an R1 to an R4 or 5 (as an example) is not insignificant either.

This post was edited by HomeSealed_WI on Mon, Oct 6, 14 at 15:23

Well said HomeSealed.

I will give Energy Rater the benefit of the doubt as I am sure that he/she was referring to those "other" window people.

I am not sure you will find a better collective of "window" guys that are more educated or successfully incorporate home performance and proper application into their companies than the folks that are regular contributors on here.

As a side bar, do they still teach energy auditors to discredit window sales people? Seems like it is still the unwritten rule.

Of course I could share a few stories about Certified Auditors that would blow your mind.

I especially love the one that spray foamed some attic gable end vents to stop with the "air leakage".

don't know what they teach energy auditors.
never been to one of those classes.

my post wasn't ment to offend the regulars here,
the post was to clarify for homeowners before purchase
of windows based on unrealistic expectations.

7-15% energy savings, not roi, not resale value
energy savings as per title of thread.

fwiw, sealing gable end vents, removing pav's
& passive turbines is a normal event when foam
sealing the attic to create an unvented semi conditioned
attic space.
it all depends upon the application as to what is
done with attic. vented vs unvented is a big difference.

day two of dose pack for poison ivy makes for
short attention span & high irritatibility.
as steroid intake decreases, life is better. not so itchy
& short on good manners.

I don't venture over here often, as I see you guys
have it under control.

Energy Rater,

The insulation was still along the floor and the no other air sealing was done. The attic, in this case, was not needed as conditioned (or being treated) space and there were huge bypasses into the attic.

Needless to say, the owner contacted me once it started "raining" in the attic whereas it had not done so prior to the auditor making his/her recommendations and spray foam.

I assure you that for every 1 story I can quote you about poor application on the auditing side, I could quote you 5 poorly done window projects by hacks. No shortage of those in our industry.

Sorry about the Poison Ivy. Bleach works...trust me. It isn't pleasant but the itching will stop.

Feel better soon and I always welcome your input in here.

You may not think so, but your input provides 3rd party reaffirmation of what guys like me, HomeSealed, Masterext, Fenestration Taylor, and Millworkman say all the time.

my dad used to give me an hour of scratching
& then pour on the iodine.
radical & painful...but it worked.
unfortunately this time it was systeminc...

I see few window change outs in my work.
one for homeowner near airport, another
for one near water pumping plants.
both were for noise reduction.
while a lot of my clients have window replacement
on their to do list...it is quickly removed due to
it being the least efficient upgrade/improvement.
not to mention the most expensive.
my job is to help them better spend their money
on things that actually perform.

LOL@ sealing gable end vents without
foam encapsulating the attic ... lots of
misinformation in all trades out there.

I could tell some stories too...but hey..
go take a look at some classics.
www.hvac-talk.com has a wall of shame
for things hvac guys have seen in the field.
you should take a half hour when you need
a laugh. I say laugh...but some of these
hack jobs were dangerous.
the site is a great resource for homeowners
as all questions are answered by pro members
only. and absolutely no diy.

Oberon isn't here? I figured he would be
hanging out here...must be too involved in
grandfather duties!

keep doing the good work!

Oberon is probably still working on getting that roof on his addition last I checked and I think they have already had a deep freeze up where he hales from.

That sucks about the poison ivy. I never used to get it but I can now.

It is a beast if you aren't careful.

Great thread!

Still working on the stupid roof - HOPEFULLY done this weekend. Supposed to be in the low to mid 50's, so at least it wont be cold.

I am way behind because of the rain we had this summer (or pretty much lack of summer) and also because I kinda fell off a wall and tore up my knee pretty good which put me on the shelf for a few weeks.

I agree it totally sucks about poison ivy! ERLA, how in the heck did that happen?

WoW, like you, in my younger days, I was "immune" to poison ivy effect. My brother and I used to chase our sisters with it and it never bothered either of us.

No idea if I can get it now, and I am going to do my best to avoid it in any case

But I really HATE stinging nettles.

Hey G!!

sorry to hear about your knee..but glad you are
on the mend.
I think we got your summer...it was a hot one,
but I prefer heat to cold, last winter...was pure
hell for me.

I've always been allergic, but like wasp stings
the poison ivy reaction seems to get worse as I age.
I swear all I have to do is look at it wrong..and it
includes sumac, poison oak & just about every
thing with leaves of three & red stems.
being a yardie (new to me term for yard junkie) and
living in the woods fighting these things is a
neverending job. I must have gotten hold of some
roots in one of the flower beds. and with our
crazy weather last winter...I even got it in feburary.

so whats the deal with the roof? doing a cool roof
or something complex? or just having trouble with
weather cooperating?

sounds like you have perfect weather to get it
done this weekend...just be careful up there!

do you still have those wonderfully explained igu windows 101 posts from the building forum?
I'd like to share them on another forum...maybe
in general discussion part of the site as other
areas are locked to the publc. I'd really like to
get them into the building science forum...but
its only for pro members...you wouldn't have
an epa card by any chance??

anyway let me know.
and again...great to hear from you.
take care.

Hiya ERLA,

I am adding a small (500 ft²) addition to the house. Basically a "mother-in-law" addition.

It has been raining and relatively cool here pretty much all summer. I had to dig out the foundation trench twice (with a shovel) because of wall collapse due to rain.

The knee is much better, but still far from 100%, so it slows me down a lot. Likely being 60 slows me down as well, but I am not placing any blame there.

I am not sure what I ever did with a lot of those old posts.

Frankly, when I see them on line from time-to-time, some of them make me cringe. Not the info so much as the long, meandering post. I don't know how people even read thru some of them...lol

Ugh on the plant sensitivity. You need to be careful for sure.

As WoW said, we have had some heavy frosts and a few snow flurries already. Way too early for that stuff.

Last winter we had 50(+) days that went below zero at some point. They are predicting another one just like it coming our way this winter as well.

At this point if I get the room closed in before the snow sticks I will be one happy puppy!

Take care "D" and don't be a stranger.

We replaced our windows because of air leakage, solar heat penetration, and winter coldness next to our builder-grade metal-framed windows. The replacements are Okna 500s. We have certainly experienced an increase in comfort.

I haven't compared new bills to old, and may be seeing more than is there, but my impression is we are saving in the neighborhood $10/month on average. But that would be more than Energy star projections of $27 to $111/year, and our home is less than 2000 sq ft (about 1800 including finished basement rec room).

Great feedback Mary.

Get the house/attic air sealed and insulated and I bet you will more than double that number on the savings.

You can probably speak to the comfort improvements that you got on a room by room basis that go above and beyond just the savings part of the equation.

Great feedback and great pick on the window too.

Thank you for posting this up and this is perfect feedback from a homeowner that is seeing the results firsthand.

When we moved into this house twenty or so years ago several of the windows were so worn we used dowels to keep the sliding pane from falling out.

Sometimes replacing a window for the energy savings is very much a secondary thing.