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trish99_gw

Trapped

trish99
15 years ago

I am in a same sex relationship; we are both women. She has two children; a boy 15 and a girl 12. I don't have children and this is the first time I had ever been involved with someone who has children. At the time that we met, the boy had been living with his father since he was 8. He has ADHD with oppositional defiant behaviors. As our relationship progressed, I told my partner nearly verbatum at the time, that "while I see our relationship coming together and progressing in a normal manner in which the next step would be to build a life together, I want to be clear and up front that while I love you, living with your son will not work for me, so is there any chance that he would ever move in with you barring a death to his father?" She said no...

Two years later, and after having built a home in an executive n'hood, at 13, he asked to move in with us. I was adamently opposed to this for the reasons previously mentioned, but because he failed school twice living with his father, there wasn't much choice. The boy is now 15 and will be 16 in November. Not much has changed since he moved in. Hes managed not to fail school, but at the same time his disrespectful attitude and mouth still remain active. Some specifics on these events may be helpful to any readers of this. When the question of moving in was posed to her by then 13 year old son, it was late May 2006 and his father would later tell my partner, "heÂll be leaving her in late July to move in". There was no discussion on either part and although I expressed my concerns over this as well as reminding her that I did not want to live with this child, I was basically forced into this situation without any consideration at all. I have no idea why she didnÂt have any discussion with him other than the fact that she retained main custody. I do not blame her for not knowing what this child would do or for her allowing him to move back in. I just did not care for the fact that the father didnÂt bother to discuss this issue with either her or me knowing that a non parent would have to be involved. It was as if once he said the magic words "heÂll be moving in with you", my partner didnÂt question it at all and frankly IÂve never understood or agreed with that.

HeÂs been here for 24 months. And itÂs been a roller coaster of the kind I wouldnÂt wish on anyone. The first few months he absolutely refused to do anything she said regarding school and homework. He defied her at every turn. The first year he was suspended from school several times, nearly failed school, and what has been an ongoing pattern for 18 of those months has been a never ending quest to battle, put down and insult his mother ever since moving in. What has also continued are the battles over curfews and his disrectful mouth. She spent a $1000 sending him to a two week camp to enjoy himself and when he returned yesterday, all he wanted to do was go to his friends and demanded that his mother give him a ride. When that didnÂt work, he wanted to go to his fathers. She told him, "you were gone for two weeks" and no sooner did she say that, he said, "and I didn't come home to see you." Such a little darling.

IÂve made it no secret that I want him to move back to his fathers, but his mother wonÂt have any part of that since the kid failed school under the dadÂs watch twice.

He has said of my partner, that sheÂs worthless, pathetic, a loser and an embarrasment. He has said of me that IÂm a mental case. He only says these things to her and myself all the while he is completely polite and respectful to everyone else. Before you ask, yes heÂs in counseling and takes ADHD meds. He constantly struggles to control her and when he doesnt get his way, out come the put downs. He told her he did not want to spend last xmas with us and didnÂt. He went to his fatherÂs. Frankly I wouldnÂt have gotten him anything for xmas let alone wrapped the presents and the things I did get him, I did not give to him. She on the other hand got him very nice clothes and even wrapped them. It was after New Years that he even opened them. He was more interested in the play station portable that his father got him than anything he got here.

My opinion of the reasons he moved in here is that he sees his mother as a source of wealth that he can tap into; but its failed because he doesnÂt get many the things he wants. That in his mind makes her all the things mentioned above. His father on the other hand makes far less money is far less educated (10th grade) and is his role model. He treats his son equal to himself and this carries over here in this house when this kid attempts to place himself in a position above his mother.

His father canÂt buy him things because they donÂt have the money. He resented his mother getting child support (sheÂs the custodial parent) because his father ÂcanÂt afford itÂ. The truth is that his father doesnÂt manage money well. HeÂd rather buy an $800 hunting license than pay for his sonÂs ADHD meds.

But I digress. My issue here is that IÂve reached my limitations living with this kid. IÂm 50. I donÂt have children of my own, never been with anyone else who has, and although I"m close to the daughter, I canÂt stand living with this kid and hearing his constant put downs of his mother. IÂve tried to in the past talk this over in therapy sessions, but IÂm to the point that I just canÂt take living with this kid any longer. I have nothing to look forward to when his mother tells me that he wonÂt graduate HS until heÂs 20 because he failed school twice living with his father; and that each school year heÂs going to act like an ass. At 50 years of age, this is not what I had in mind for my gearing it down years. My partner is 36. And even if he lives with her another 4 years, sheÂll only be 40 when that nightmare ends. Not me, IÂll be 54 years old. And I canÂt bear that thought.

His mother understands that but it shatters her world on two counts. One, she doesnÂt feel she can call his father and have the child return to live with him. She wonÂt even entertain calling him to ask even though the kid lived there for five years. Two; she knows this means her moving out which she canÂt fathom doing. Why should she have to ruin her life for a kid who is, yes, using her and who had no interest in living with her until he realized he could get in on this ÂactionÂ. I know this comment may not go over well, but I also know that this kid isnÂt stupid. HeÂs being groomed by his father to be sexist and he, to me is clearly using his mother. This is a total no win situation. I finally told her yesterday that I canÂt live with this kid in my house that I worked so hard to get to this point in my life only to have it desecrated by this child's toxic mouth and attitude. I obsess over when the next blow out will take place with his mouth.

I donÂt know what to do. I donÂt want to lose my relationship with my partner or her daughter, but this boy ruins everything we have together.

Comments (95)

  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Santa is a fantasy, not a lie. Some of them asked if Santa were real, and I told them no. If you are pretending that you can't distinguish between fantasy and lie, there is no point is discussing this. One of the many differences, as you know, is that you said things that were untrue for personal gain.

  • trish99
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you perpetuated Santa "fantasy" to your kids in any way, at anytime in their lives, then you lied. Period.

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  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No, you are incorrect.

  • ceph
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Trish, don't bother arguing with TOS. It will be fruitless. Sometimes TOS offers very good advice (she actually has offered some very good suggestions to help me figure out what to do about my 9yo FSS's ADHD) and sometimes she is just looking to fight.

    Anyhow, Trish, I can see how you would be frustrated with your SS. My suggestion, having read more of your posts, and being used to a 9yo boy with monster ADHD (and possibly mild but undiagnosed ODD) is that he might need more positive feedback (praise, rewards etc) for his good behavior, and shorter but immediate consequences for his bad behavior.

    Taking his door away for locking it is reasonable, but the length of time seems pretty rough. (I find that A__ responds better to a horrible but short punishment than a mild but long one)... For someone with ADHD, the punishment stops being connected to the action after a couple of days, so he probably just viewed it as you and his mom being mean to him, not as a consequence for locking his door...
    But his brain doesn't give him dopamine (neurological reward) for making a good decision, so his family and friends need to provide the external stimulus to tell his brain that he should get a neurological reward.

    IME, kids with ADHD and/or ODD also get neurological reward from you engaging with them. FDH's son just FEEDS on it if someone yells back at him during a screaming fit, but if you just speak calmly to him, he quiets right down and listens to what you have to say about his behavior.

    I realize that my FSS is 9, not 15, but could any of these ideas be aged-up for your SS?

  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ceph,

    You seemed genuinely concerned with figuring out what makes A tick, and with gently helping him to be happier, less stressed in school, and to have friends (e.g. by not hitting them on the soccer field). Trapped seems more concerned with either a) getting rid of her partner's son, or b) browbeating him into submission. As you obviously already know, you need to be flexible and innovative when dealing with all children, and particularly ones with learning disabilities. A rigid adult and a child with ADHD is a recipe for disaster.

  • finedreams
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    this boy is a pain in you know what. but the issue should not be how to get rid of a kid or ship him somewhere esle, but how to help him to get better and how to help his mother to raise him. you can't ask a parent to ship bad kid out. my DD gave me some grief in teenage years but I cannot imagine anyone telling me to get rid of her. your partner is his mother and that is forever, other reltionships might not be forever but parents/children relationship is forever.

  • finedreams
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    TOS as a heterosexual woman, who has all the rights, it is simply insensitive of you to shame homosexuals, whose rights are denied to them. They have to continue lying until our country will stop denying them full rights. And no, not everyone can move to Massachusets. So many people have to stay where they are due to multiple reasons such as children, elderly parents etc.

    You will never walk in these people's shoes so you should not be judging. It is extremelly stressful experience to come out to even family members let alone at work. And there are still areas in this country where you are not safe if you are gay. and no, not everyone can move. It is very easy to talk hoiw brave would you be to be come out publically, you DO NOT KNOW what would you do.

    and the fact that OP had to lie to survive is irrelevant to her struggles with her stepson...oh wait...she can't legally be married so he isn't even a STEPSON...hmmm

  • sylviatexas1
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I had to stop myself from responding to the "fantasy isn't a lie" nonsense, reminding myself that so many times the whole point in bringing up a tangent is to get other people to waste their time getting tangled up in argument, to create friction, to confuse the issue, & to start fights.

    I think the "lying about being gay" tangent is in this same category.

    tos is not an uneducated, disenfranchised crank messing around on the internet;

    she's a *very smart* crank who doesn't make mistakes when she posts;

    she posts what she posts for a reason, & the off-the-wall, outlandish tangents always get an outraged reaction & result in a flurry of conflict & at some point, *she abandons that tangent for another one*.

    ever notice that she doesn't respond to emotional posts in the same vein?

    She enjoys goading other people into posting emotional or heated responses, wasting their time, & getting into an uproar.

    & she's always always always aloof from the fray.

  • imamommy
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Glad I'm not the only one that noticed it Sylvia.

    In my opinion, the OP's sexuality is irrelevant. In my opinion, whether they are married or not is irrelevant other than if she doesnt' like things, she can leave... they aren't married (no legal ties). If she is 'committed' (as she may not be able to get married), then many of the things she says in the OP are disturbing... the way she talks about her partner's child.

    If you want to work on things getting better, the first step might be to change her attitude. Saying things like "Ive made it no secret that I want him to move back to his fathers, but his mother wont have any part of that since the kid failed school under the dads watch twice." doesn't sound like she wants to help this kid. It sounds like she makes it perfectly clear he is a burden to 'their' relationship and I'll say it again. DON'T GET INVOLVED WITH SOMEONE THAT HAS CHILDREN IF YOU DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH CHILDREN.

    It doesn't matter if the child is grown or not. The child will always be their child. Then they will have grandchildren. If anything happens to the child, sometimes the grandparents end up raising their grandchildren. You can never tell what will happen down the road when there are children involved. I think OP is being selfish and unfair. I also think OP's partner has a responsibility to her child that she is failing miserably at. It's truly sad.

  • doodleboo
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    IMA,

    I totally agree that you should not get involved with a parent unless you want to be involved with the children. Key word being children. I do think adult children are a different story though. I just posted a rant about how adult children are getting more and more ridiculously reliant upon parents. I can't get over how many grown children cause grief for their parents these days. Read my other post to see what I'm trying to get at.

  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    finedreams,

    I am not "shaming homosexuals." Here sexual orientation is not the issue; lying, and in particular lying to her employer, is. There are plenty of gay people who are not willing to lie in order to get their partners' children admitted into special programs or for any other reason.

  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It is also unfair that women can not be in combat positions in the United States armed forces. Would it therefore be ok if a woman lied and said she was male? When I was growing up, it was virtually impossible for women to get a job as large animal veterinarians or in numerous other occupations. Would it have been ok for me to dress up as a man in order to get into school/get a job in these fields?

  • finedreams
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    TOS I meant you are shaming them for lying about their sexual orientation not for being homosexuals. Unless you are in their shoes you do not understand why they feel they have to lie.

  • finedreams
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    there is no much social stigma against women in our society. Pretending to be a male is not needed anymore. women have plenty of rights. there is however stigma against homosexuals and they have way less rights.

    and yes in certain circumstances women pretend to be men in order to survive. Have you ever seen Afgani movie Osama. I suggest you watch it. she pretends to be a boy so her mother can get around looking for job and she can attend school. According to you it is a sin she lies about being a male. Roll my eyes.

    Do you condemn Jews who lied about their ethincity as to survive Holocaust? Some lied and survived. Shame on them according to TOS.

    And I am not suggesting that OP is ashamed of her sexuality, she is not, but some people are ashamed or afraid so they lie. It is not your place TOS to judge them.

    You make no sense. In a perfect society nobody lies, but in our world, which is imperfect, people have to lie.

  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What do you mean there is not much "social stigma" against women in our society? I have seen a great deal of discrimination against women in many areas - from boardrooms to apprenticeship programs for electricians and plumbers. Are you saying that there is no discrimination against women in the armed forces?? Or the FBI, fire departments, or many, many other places?? When I was growing up, the discrimination was far, far worse.

    Ok, I'll buy that a small percentage of women lie in order to avoid death. Has anyone here actually had to lie about their sex to avoid being killed? I rather doubt it. I think lying to avoid death is a rather far-fetched example with limited applicability.

    "In a perfect society nobody lies, but in our world, which is imperfect, people have to lie"

    I think you have it backwards. The world would be a lot closer to perfect if no one lied.

  • sylviatexas1
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    a whole new tangent to start a whole new ridiculous argument...

  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    First of all, it is not a new subject - the discussion of whether lying is justified when there is discrimination has been going on for awhile. Second, the topic is by no means ridiculous.

  • doodleboo
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    TOS

    How in the hell have you managed to go from parenting issues to gender issues? Honest to god woman...stay on topic! We have gone off on another tangent. Post another blog for weeping out loud.

  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is not a blog. It is a message board, with threads.

    If you read all the posts, you would see that I was responding to finedreams and the OP's defense of lying because homosexuals are discriminated against, and I pointed out that women are also discriminated against, but that doesn't give them justification for lying about their gender.

  • sylviatexas1
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    yadda yadda yadda

  • barefoot_diva
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    *YAWN*

  • finedreams
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    discrimination is not the same as social stigma.

    plenty of people I know hate or dislike gays or are grossed out by them , not particular gays but just homosexuals in general. I don't know that many people who are grossed out disqusted or hateful towards women in general.

    i was not tlaking about discrimination but about being outcasts in our society. i know plenty of people, both men and women, who make horrible comments about gays. i don't know one person who says that women are gross. lol

    and until we don't give gays same basic rights that we enjoy, they will have to lie. just deal with it.

    my apologies to the forum for hijacking topic, i just found TOS's comments insensitive towards homosexuals and their struggles. so i started it. i won't be commenting on it anymore.

  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There are lots of groups that are discriminated against and/or stigmatized, and not afforded the same basic rights as healthy white males in our society - people of color, the physically disabled, the mentally ill, the obese, the HIV positive, various nationalities, and other groups too numerous to mention. Plenty of people make horrible comments about many of these groups as well. No one has to lie. It is a choice.

  • sylviatexas1
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    tangent tangent tangent...

    but I just can't resist:

    People from every one of those groups has lied or "passed" in order to have a better shot at a better life.

    I'm surprised at you, tos, to have the arrogance to speak on behalf of vast numbers of people who probably have harder lives than you, people into whose struggles you evidently have no insight or empathy or sympathy, using them to argue a cloddish point about which you surely know you're wrong.

    Aside from it being incredibly callous to insist that no person of color, no woman, no mentally or physically disabled person, no person with HIV ever needed or now needs to lie just to get a fair shake, it's also just not true.

    You're wrong, & your "arguments" have deteriorated into transparently nonsensical denials that you are wrong.

    Most likely everybody is wrong from time to time.

    Get over it.

  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If someone "needs" to lie in order to get a "fair shake," then that "shake" isn't actually fair. It certainly isn't fair to others in the same boat for whom personal integrity is more important than getting what they want. It doesn't matter if what they want is also what they deserve - if they have to lie in order to get it, it isn't worth having.

  • imamommy
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I wonder if TOS talks to people the way she talks here??? My guess is that she can be herself here, it's anonymous and nobody knows who she is. She didn't bother to share her picture or even give us a description of her. I guess if she goes to work and is pleasant and kind to the people she meets in real life, she is not being her 'real' self. She must be lying or pretending to be something she isn't so she will be liked or get along with others. I can only imagine that if she is the same in real life that she is here, she must not have any friends and nobody would want to be around her (except maybe KKNY).

    So, which is it TOS? Are you pleasant to your co workers and friends in real life? Or do you criticize everybody and say things to stir up trouble at work too? If you are pleasant to people in real life, which persona is the true you? IRL or here? You can't have it both ways....

  • sylviatexas1
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "It doesn't matter if what they want is also what they deserve - if they have to lie in order to get it, it isn't worth having."

    That's not your call or mine to make.

    Each person has to make his/her own decisions.

    You are not entitled to determine, for anyone else, what is worth having or how much is reasonable or acceptable to pay for it, & you are not entitled to sit in judgment of those whose decisions are not the decisions you *think* you'd make if you were in their position.

    You're wrong.

  • doodleboo
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    TOS

    Step parents are regularly discriminated against on this site, which is totally ironic since this is a "STEP FAMILY" site.

    Also, I would venture to say that most people here feel like you lie to yourself all the time about the demise of your marriage and the character of your ex husband. I think you are calling the kettle black.

    I'm not trying to pick on you but you can't understand a person's situation till you've walked a mile in their shoes and you are being highly HIGHLY judgmental. I don't agree with the OP's view of children at all but her sexuality and how she deals with it is her business.

  • pseudo_mom
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    She "lied" to get her GF's son into a summer camp .... geezus she didn't sell national secrets.

    And "technically" he is living in her home so he is her dependant.

  • trish99
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The fact of the matter is that ALL gays and lesbians lie to get into the military, not just me. The notion that there are gays in the military who didn't lie to get in is nonsense. Once you admit it, your career is done or it never has a chance to begin. Every single last one of us lied to enlist or go to Officer Candidate School (OCS).

    Yes, I lied in order to pursue my professional aspirations and so does every other gay person who joins the military. Unless and until the military ceases their archaic discriminatory policies against us, then we will continue to lie in order to get a fair shake and no straight person who takes their own rights for granted would never understand what's like.

    Just to be clear, there's a huge difference between a malicious lie where the intent is to cause harm to someone and an officious lie where the intent is to gain access to institutions for personal/professional aspirations. We are relegated to second class status in our relationships; in the ways in which we want to serve and in our lives period. I'm proud of my service to this country and I don't have any personal regrets for CHOOSING to lie in order to serve my country and in order to become a successful professional adult, despite the fact that my Government would choose to disgard me simply because because of who I love.

  • pseudo_mom
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Trish her ignorance baffles most of us too.

    Thank you for serving.

  • colleen777
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Tos is deceptive for sure. Think back on the "what do you look like" thread. She said, "I don't like short hair"

    OK, SO?

    Does that mean she doesn't have short hair? NOPE.

  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I can't believe that I am having to defend the position that lying is wrong. Geez..

    I think it is unwise, at best, to post one's photograph on a message board, especially for those of you who are dealing with legal issues.

    And why on earth would anyone have short hair if they didn't like it (barring chemotherapy or other illness that caused hair loss, of course)?

    From my perspective, the people I work with are a lot more reasonable than some of the posters here, and for the most part more child-oriented. Several of them have stepparents, and, except for the one whose stepparent is in her nineties, they don't get along with them very well. Obviously we don't spend all day discussing stepfamily issues, but we often discuss child-raising issues, and they don't start name-calling if they disagree with me (or vice versa, of course).

    trish,

    They actually ASK for your sexual orientation on the enlistment paperwork? I didn't think they were allowed to do that.

  • steppschild
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Trish-
    I have been trying to avoid the seduction of this sight and all of the bantering, but alas I find myself lurking here. I stopped reading this thread after the initial BS about you telling lies, don't ask, don't tell, and all of TOS's higher than GOD's moral standards. I just read the last two or three posts and you're still being nailed to the cross for lying.

    I personally want to thank you for enlisting in the military to protect our country. Maybe TOS doesn't read the paper, but there are many people dying, losing limbs, seeing things that will leave life longs emotional scars, being exposed radio-active dust over in Iraq and Afghanistan. How many of those are "don't ask, don't tells"? Again, thank you Trish.

  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't think anyone on this thread, including myself, has advocated discrimination against gay people in the armed forces.

    Since when do two wrongs make a right?

    For that matter, why would the OP even want to enroll her partner's son in a program through her employer? What if someone happened to refer to Trish as his "parent?" Would he correct them? I don't know if she pretended that she was married to a man, or if she pretended that the boy was her son (I would think that would be hard to pull off), or what, but I can think of so many ways that a casual comment on the boy's part or casual question from someone else in the program would bring down the whole house of cards.

    More importantly, what does her lying to enroll him demonstrate to the boy?

    Every woman, and especially every woman of middle age or older, has experienced discrimination because of her sex. On a day to day basis, I think that as a middle aged woman, Trish is far more likely to suffer discrimination because of her gender than because of her sexual orientation.

    I have seen numerous complaints on this board about stepchildren who lie, and in most cases their lies are also not done with an intent to hurt someone, but with an intent to gain something for themselves, something that they believe they deserve, or because they believe that they are being treated unfairly. You can't have it both ways - if you are going to say that children should always tell you the truth, then it can not be ok for adults to lie either.

  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If lying is ok to get around blatantly unfair treatment, how about stealing?

    For example - ima was (and is) owed thousands and thousands of dollars in court ordered child support. Her children deserved that child support. She should have received it when they were little, and the money would definitely have benefited them. I don't think there is any question that it was blatantly unfair that she didn't receive it.

    Would it have been ok for her to have stolen it from the fathers? I am not talking about whether it would have been smart, but would it have been morally justifiable? Would it have made a difference whether she stole it from, say, a dropped wallet, a pilfered ATM/PIN, breaking and entering, or holding him up at gunpoint?

    Would two wrongs have made a right?

  • trish99
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    TOS,
    I enlisted in 1981, long before DADT. On one's medical paperwork there are numerous things that inquire about your health status. One of those inquiries is

    "do you have homosexual tendencies"

    which you had to check a yes or no block. So, of course I checked the "no" block. DADT eliminated that, but that wasn't until 1993. So, yes in fact, gays and lesbians were forced to lie in order to be allowed in the 'club'. After that they were only forced to remain "silent".

    And let me back up on the camp program here. The child's grandfather is a 20 year veteran and we put him on the paper work as a point of contact, not me. They simply 'assumed' that I was this kid's mother, when I first signed him up; I didn't correct them, and no, this wasn't something done in front of the boy. These things are much more about technicality then there is about any strict adherence to matching a kid up any biological parent. They see me, they see my badge and they ASSUME he's mine. But there's SO MANY kids at this thing that no one asks anything. And all he knows is that he's going to camp; not anything having to do with being a dependant of a DoD employee or military person.

    Insofar as kids lying. They all do it and they do it for the most part as a defensive lie; to ward off from getting into trouble, not necessarily to gain anything. My kid lied about locking the door. So, I removed the door. Adults who are forced into lying the way I was may not be right, but it's not fair for a society or a law making body to put people into a position to have to lie either.

    Gerina,

    >>How many of those are "don't ask, don't tells"? Again, thank you Trish.Thank you.

    Ever hear of Eric Alva? He was the first wounded soldier of the Iraq war. He lost his leg and he's gay.

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/02/28/gays.military/index.html

    Many gays and lesbians have died for our country, but we'll never know how many.

    http://lesbianlife.about.com/b/2006/05/29/remember-gay-lesbian-vets.htm

    There's been a momentum since I served.

    I served in silence. That's how you accomplished a career. Many still practice this. Is this lying by omission? Yes.

    If you're one of the unlucky who are targeted via a 'witch hunt' which I was, then you lie some more.

    Other's, however, are leaving in droves rather than to live a lie. I understand that because I understand how the lie I told and lived has corrupted everything.

    You don't tell and LIVE a lie like that and not have it corrupt everything in your life. At the time that I decided to join, I had no idea how this one lie would impact my life. It wasn't until I was in my 40's and retired that I was able to look back on this and see the effects.

    Let me just say that I do not need anyone's moral judgment regarding telling a lie. I know first hand what a lie like this accomplishes. You can achieve major successes in life, but for gays and lesbians who are FORCED into lying if they choose the military as a career, it comes with a price which was certainly unbeknownst to me at the time.

    What happens to a person is that you've got this false self going on and that false self not only corrupts that part of you where you have to present yourself to the world, but it also corrupts the relationships that you have with the people that actually do knowincluding your significant othersbecause you both have to play out this whole facade. It more or less forces you not to have a true sense of
    whats going on, let alone yourself.

    In most gay relationships, it exasperates the relationship in and of itself. There is this web of dishonesty going on throughout all of the other areas of your life and your relationship cant help but be affected. Your relationship with yourself is affected, so therefore all of your other relationships are going to be affected insofar as you are not having total honesty about who you are.

    My career choice obliged me to engage for most part of my adult life, in furtive, deceptive behavior as the price of admission and continued good standing. And make no mistake; I've suffered sexual harrasment and discrimination as a female, but being forced to cover up my homosexuality did far greater damage to me as a person.

    I am extremely bitter for having been put in that position; for having an entire class of citizens to be put in that position was and is wrong. But the fact is that this kind of silence is still expected.

    One of the underappreciated aspects of Dont Ask Dont Tell,which shockingly has not been discussed in court of appeals opinions that have dealt with the policy, is the information the military is deprived of vis-à-vis its gay and lesbian members. Because the military prohibits all communication about sexual identity at all times with all people, you cant go to your commanding officer or your senator to ex-plain the impact that Dont Ask Dont Tell is having on gay sol-diers and urge a change in the policy.

    So there is institutional and political harm from "passing" as well. The threat of retribution means gays and lesbians still have to be very guarded, so even people of very good will in the military only get the party line, especially under the current administration. Even though under DADT gays aren't excluded from status, they are excluded from self identifying; i.e., you are EXPECTED TO DENY who you really are.

  • imamommy
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What I think is disgusting, is that this entire thread has been dragged off on a tangent and away from the issue in the original post. Someone is now having to defend their entire life choices (and I'm referring to the lie by omission that was done many years ago and not saying homosexuality is a choice) It's the same poster that attacked me for the choices I made 15-20 years ago and sits in judgment over things that can't be changed. She sits here, day after day, week after week, year after year, in her miserable little life, picking apart other people's words and problems and choosing insignificant parts of a sentence to criticize and goad people into feeling defensive. She enjoys getting everyone all worked up over something and then quietly sits back and says "who me? I didn't start this. All I said is ____."

    THEOTHERSIDE, you need counseling. GET HELP!!! You went to bed last night making a comment that nobody responded to and then you get up this morning and respond to the same thread again.... What? you didn't stir up anything with the first one so you come back to add on? DON'T USE ME IN YOU FLIPPIN' EXAMPLES!!! Damn straight I am owed child support and if he dropped his wallet and any money it it, I'd be surprised but sure as hell would grab it and tell him "it's mine now buddy!" I wouldn't 'sneak' it, he knows he owes it to me and yes, I would TAKE it. and if he had money in his bank, I'd sure as hell get a writ of attachment to take every penny I could... and he wouldn't find out until AFTER.

    Theotherside can't understand what might happen if some people don't 'lie'. I grew up in a predominately white area and I'm half white, half Mexican. I was beat up regularly in the sixth grade because they wanted to pick on the Mexican. We moved the following year to a diverse community where I was snubbed by White girls because I looked Mexican but I was snubbed by Mexican girls because I didn't speak spanish. In high school, I 'passed' for white and so did a couple of my cousins that were full Mexican. It's sad that people have to pretend to be something they aren't in order to be treated fairly. And it's pathetic that some people have no empathy.

  • trish99
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    TOS-

    If she's owed that money and if she had any chance to get it including having HIS wages garnished or even STEALING it, then by all means she should TAKE IT. Her child's mouth is much more important than his selfish refusal to support his own children.

    If given the choice between stealing money that's owed to me or denying food from my childs' mouth, you better believe I'd STEAL THE MONEY.

    It's flat out reprehensible that any parent would deny his own children the basic necessities of life. To suggest that it's MORE wrong to steal his money over feeding her own child that is owed that money is patently absurd.

  • steppschild
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Trish and IMA:

    I also had to live a "double life" lie quite a number of years ago for reasons that are too complicated to explain in detail, but it had to do with both of us (me/x) being the first to divorce in our family. As all of us know, divorce or considering to leave a long-term relationship is to say the least very, very stressful. My ex and I had to act like everything was just dandy between us while we trying to sort through our marriage. Neither of us needed to be burdened with the "shame" we would potentially cast upon our families because believe you me there would have been no emotional support from either side. It was horrible and when we decided to divorce, we got the "shame stigma" from our respective families - both barrels. Therefor our decision to "pretend" was best for the moment.

    TOS is very lucky she never felt any pressure to selectively withhold certain elements of her life to protect herself. Although she may not lie to others, one has to wonder how much she actually lies to herself. I wonder what she would do if we chose not to engage her in her knit-picking ways and just ignored her negative posts.

  • catlettuce
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Back to the original post, as I know I am chiming in here very late..I have 2 yes 2 ADULT step sons living with DH & I now, plus a G-son 3-4 days a week.

    Trish, it never ends, you know when it ends? When you die. I have to be blunt. I love my DH very much, I love my S children but I do NOT want to live with them in their adulthood, they supposedly were staying here temporarily to save $ for down payments on houses but have just been spening money on cars, motorcycles etc with no signs of moving forward in life.

    This is all acceptable to my DH and he cotinues to enable and support them, there is no end in sight. He cannot say no to anything. We have no privacy and no time to just be a couple. I am going to start travel nursing shortly just to get away from it & get a fresh perspective. I have a very loving husband, he is a very good & kind person. It is his kindness that kills him & our relationship. He is also working like a dog & killing himself to support these adult kids.

    I see no end in sight for your situation unless the kiddo wants to go back to Dads house, but even at that, he could play the same game with Dad. No his behaviors are not acceptable I don't care what his issues ADD-ODD whatever.

    It is not okay to speak to your mother like that & the last time my son raised hs voice to me like that (at 14) he got hs mouth slapped. Momma doesn't tolerate lip, learn it-live it. Sorry, flame away folks but he is going on 23, respectful, supporting himself and we have a great relationship. He would not dream of speaking to anyone like that.

    BUT I have chosen from the start (8yr.s ago) to not parent my S-kids since they were teens already, rather to be a support person in their lives. We have good relationships though somewht superficial but thats ok, I'm not their mother. They know they can come to me if they need to but they also know they cannot use me like they do their father. So when they want money, they go to Dad. DH & I parent completely different.

    And like you, I am 43, DH 54, I was looking forward to us being couple and the kids being out on their own. I don't want to have a houseful anymore, I don't want to be a built in babysitter, cook, chauffer, etc..but no one cares how I want to live.

    So we are in similar situations as far as that goes. I can't make my DH change his life I can only change my circumstances. I am hoping the short term (13 weeks assignments) seperations may change his things or maybe I will like living alone again, who knows.

    My only advice to you is don't think if the son moves to his dad's he will stay there. Long term this kid will be in your life, maybe (probably) he will mature and behaviors will improve but it's a long road. Personally, ifI knew things were going to end up like this I would have left a long time ago.

    I think you should get on with your life, seperate and let her take care of her son and their issues, otherwise it WILL (I promise you) take over your life.

    CL

  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I'd sure as hell get a writ of attachment to take every penny I could.."

    That's perfectly legal and very reasonable.

    I'm not talking about stealing in order to keep your kids from starving to death. That is not a very common scenario in present day United States, because there are a number of programs such as food stamps, WIC, food pantries, etc. There is a lot of middle ground between that and having so much money that the child support due is superfluous.

    Based on their previous posts, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that some posters believe it is all right to steal under the circumstances I described.

  • sylviatexas1
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    incredible.

    trish, thanks for posting about the impact "passing" has had on your life.

    It takes both courage & generosity to share something that powerful.

    About finally being able to talk about things after retirement...I think a lot of military people are in that position.

    The very nature of the military, the hierarchy & the absolute obedience to orders, makes it impossible for people to air the wrongs that go on.

    I wish you the best.

  • quirk
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Based on their previous posts, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that some posters believe it is all right to steal under the circumstances I described."

    I can't remember where I saw it, so I won't claim it was a scientifically reliable source (although I subscribe to scientific american, so that's the most likely source) but there was an experiment done about a husband stealing medication for his dying wife (is it morally acceptable)-- very young children were unambiguous -- stealing is wrong -- as we mature we develop the concept of moral ambiguity-- (( "i hope he didn't get caught, stealing that penicillin to save his wife's life" ))

    Some things are more wrong than others, even if the others are also wrong. Lying is wrong (although by the way as fact we all do it constantly). Is lying (lesser wrong) to prevent discrimination (greater wrong, imo) justified? Well, yes. Is lying to prevent murder wrong? um, no. lying to prevent genocide. nope. TOS, really going to argue that point???? So, whether or not lying to prevent denying people jobs because of their sexual orientation (or gender or race or religion or national origin) is wrong depends on which you think is more wrong lying or job discrimination. Me, personally? Discrimination is more wrong. Lying, therefore, as the lesser wrong is a better choice than allowing discrimination.

    Although, quite honestly, I don't consider the scenario you described as stealing. If someone actually legally owes me money, and I take it, I'm merely taking possession of my own property. Yes, I would consider robbing at gunpoint wrong, but I would also consider taking possession, at gunpoint, of a lawnmower I loaned someone as wrong--- the consequences (strong possibility of someone being killed) being more wrong than the right of regaining my legal material possession.

    Of course on the other hand, if you get back to the original topic, I actually think the OP and her partner were both more wrong than either lying or job discrimination when they decided to make a commitment that a mother would never have custody of her 11 year old child in order to be in this relationship... once you're a parent, you have an obligation to your children and they should have both realized this. I do understand the OPs position, but her partner realistically needs to parent her child so OPs choices are deal or leave... sucky choices, but there they are... having nothing to do with being gay or in the military...

  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree that some things are more wrong than others (murder is more wrong than stealing a candy bar, for instance), and that the OP and her partner's behavior in committing to never having custody is more wrong than lying. However, the fact that one thing is more wrong than another doesn't make it acceptable. There are rarely only two choices in life. In the stealing medicine example, there are multiple other choices, some of which a child wouldn't know about - Medicaid, public appeals, etc. Similarly, there are many ways of fighting discrimination, and many ways of getting money back that don't involve stealing it from the ex's wallet.

  • imamommy
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    theotherside, while you are up there on your high horse, why don't you explain how your ex husband, who cheated on his wife and married his other woman who doesn't let his children visit their home and how he intentionally lowered his income to reduce his financial obligation to his children, which most people would agree is WRONG. But, you seem to be his biggest cheerleader and talk like he is a wonderful father. I don't think you will find one person (unless KKNY agrees with you) that he is a wonderful father.

    On second thought, no explanation is needed. Everyone knows your only purpose in writing things like the last post here, is to keep your tangent going. Comparing murder to stealing a candy bar... are you for real? Don't answer that, it's a rhetorical question.

  • pseudo_mom
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    TOS said

    In the stealing medicine example, there are multiple other choices, some of which a child wouldn't know about - Medicaid, public appeals, etc. Similarly, there are many ways of fighting discrimination, and many ways of getting money back that don't involve stealing it from the ex's wallet.

    But you would tell your children the lengths you had to go to to play "hero".

    And you would hand his wallet back to him and tell your children what you did to play "hero" again ... see daddy owes me and I didn't take his money.

    so stop shoving sh@t down our throats and telling us its fruit.

  • sylviatexas1
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    no wonder he left....

  • brangwaine
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I totally understand where you are coming from. Childfree by choice is just that. A choice. Even if you already have kids. No one wants to deal with a snotty, hateful, bad-tempered jerk the privacy of their own home.

    As a mother, I also understand her point of view. This is her son.

    But!

    Coming from a "family" that was destructive, I offer you this advice.

    Ask her to think on this: If she took away the label "son", what other role does he fill her life? If he was not a "son", would this behaivor be appropriate? Or okay?

    I have had to make some hard choices. One of those is coming to the understanding that just because I have a relationship with "mother" or "sister" does not mean that it has to be abusive. If those people were not related to me (by no fault of my own, I might add!) I would have NOTHING to do with them. So, why let one little word change the way they can act towards me?

    I will never, for the life of me, understand why people treat their friends better than their family. Just because you are related does not mean you can treat eachother worse than you would a stranger.

    I really hope for the sake of your relationship that she understands this someday.

    If she can't, you may have to think about what you are going to do to make yourself happy.

  • theotherside
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There is nothing heroic about choosing not to steal. It goes without saying.

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