Manda,
I just finished reading you past posts. So is the counselor that recently said your daughter was ok--is that the same counselor your step daughter has had since she was three? So have you contacted the counselor to tell (her?) what you are observing STILL? What was the name of the meds. she used to be on?

All I know is what I've read by doing google searches. When I did the search, keying in 'fas diagnose', I came across a site that gives instructions on behavier management.

Have you compared the girl's facial features with the facial features that FAS children often have?

The girl's behavier, lack of developement, slow learning, not being able to remember things like routines, etc. does sound like what you are describing as Fetal Alcohol Syndrome.

You need to get another doctor right away. Too much time is going by. The girl does not sound like she is ADD. She could have been on the wrong kind of meds because of a misdiagnose (malpractice). Sometimes when a doctor doesn't like the way a patient or patient's caregiver is following through with their suggestions, they will get rid of the patient. You didn't say if the girl improved after the counselor took her off the medicine.

Is this a true counselor? What kind of counselor is able to prescribe medicine/drugs?

Manda,
Here is another reason why you need to get a good doctor right away. Your daughter should be in a special class--you didn't say she was. You will need to have a doctor's diagnose for her to be in a special class.

If the girl would have had a correct diagnose--you would then know that her behavier is normal for her condition. You then would have been able to get directions on how to take care of her--what she needs, etc.

Manda,
Been reading more from the net. OK, so it is not unusual that a doctor would not diagnose FAS since they don't even learn about this in medical school. So when you look for a doctor, you have to ask the question, is the doctor trained to diagnose FAS.

Perhaps there is a pediatrician in your town--but ask the question. Very important!

Very important.

bump

immediately i thought of sexual abuse when I read this post and if this child is challenged in any way the assailant might think they could get away with it...this type of sexual behavior from an 8 year old is alarming..most 8 year old might be doing self discovery on themselves or a friend but this seems extreme...have you taken her to a regular physician...I would be scared out of my mind! video tape (descreetly) this behavior and show it to your hubby AND a councellor

brass tacks,
I really feel in my heart that she is definitely a FAS kid, if only mildly. She is not in a special class at school because she has been tested and has no learning disabilities that would require special placement. She can memorize (enough) to get through test time, but at this time she cannot even tell me what state she lives in, what town, or what country. Her grades are good but only because we fight for them, not her, we sit on her to get her homework done.
As far as the physical characteristics of FAS-she has some mild similarities. She has an extremely broad forehead, she does have the smooth philtrum and thin upper lip. She also has an eye disorder that is fairly common in FAS. The major characteristics she has are:
Attention deficit
Memory deficit
Hyperactivity
Difficulty with abstract concepts
Inability to manage money (but she is young, she just can't grasp the concept)
Poor problem solving skills--where our "joke" comes in that she would burn up in the house if someone didn't tell her to get out.
Difficulty learning from consequences
Immature social behavior
Inappropriately friendly to strangers, the rare occasions she's given hugs she's actually wrapped her legs around people.
Lack of control over emotions--she cries constantly.
Poor impulse control
Poor judgment
I do think that you are right about seeing a new doctor. Her pediatrician diagnosed her as A.D.D. during the school year when I was ready to pull my (and at times her) hair out. Her counselor is a licensed practicing social worker, so she makes no diagnoses, she can refer to psychiatrist. She feels that sd is just "frozen" at the age where mom left. I think it's much deeper. She can't even remember what color hair mom has, so I'm not sure her memories are of mom. That's not to say it doesn't affect her, I just feel that's not totally it. There's more. I am going to get a referral for a psychiatrist and really get to the bottom of this. This child deserves a better life. Thank you all for your help!

Well, Im a kid and IÂm strange too, so I donÂt know if youÂd want my oppinion... but...

IÂd defiinately get her examined to make sure she hasnÂt been molested. Cause I say this as a kid thatÂs always played with myselfÂwhat you discribled ISNÂT normal. Something is up. Either she just doesnÂt get it that thatÂs inappropriate or itÂs a cry for help.

[quote] She's been in counseling since age 3 [/quote]

one of my (weird) friends has been the therapy since she was 7 (she was molested). SheÂs 13 now and all of our school thinks sheÂs just this big freakÂbecause sheÂs been in therapy since she was 7! If itÂs gotten out to her classmates that sheÂs been in therapy, your SD has probly been labeled by her classmates. It doesnÂt take much to get labeled. Some of her weirdness might be just a normal reaction to being teased or outcast.

[quote] Over the past 2 to 3 weeks I have noticed strange behavior in her. [/quote]

JUST in the last 2 or 3 weeks? Did something change 2 or 3 weeks ago?

[quote] She also talks in circles, she makes no sense and it's okay because she talks to herself constantly. I don't mean she's playing or being imaginative, she has conversations. She laughs at the wrong time, like during her talks with herself, [/quote]

Okay, I used to do all of that! I outgrow action figures and stuff, or wanted to becuase they were a BABY THINGS, so when I was bored IÂd just sort of play the same things, you know, pretend games, in my head! Fantasize I guess. IÂd have imaginary characters having conversations. Sometimes IÂd do it outloud, and sometimes even laugh, if I wasnÂt paying attention. I stoped it when I started writing it down as fanfiction! I also used to think outloud sometimes and talk in circles. I think I did things like that at least a bit because in elementary school, I had no one else to talk to.

[quote] She has to be told everyday to do the same tasks such as get dressed, brush your teeth, etc. She'd stay in her pj's all day if I didn't. [/quote]

ThatÂs every kid! My stepbrotherÂs been in pajama bottoms all day and heÂs 16! Flannel pajama bottoms are IN because theyÂre comfortable. People wear them everywhere.

You know, maybe if sheÂs an outcast at school, she misses having her therapist to talk to.

--Stefan

Stefan, thank you for your input, it's good to hear a "kid's" response to all of this and you seem very mature.
There has possibly been some sexual abuse in her past involving mom or mom's boyfriend, but we'll never know for sure. SD has no memory of it to tell us, but her actions of course point in that direction. This is mainly the reason for being in therapy so long.
I don't believe her classmates know about her counselling sessions. They were always after hours and there was no reason to tell anyone. She more than likely wouldn't, either.
I have 4 children. I know that kids do things that are just because they are kids, like staying in pj's, being irresponsible, etc. But there is a definite difference with sd.
She has always been "different" and has exhibited some strange behaviors (making no sense when she speaks, crying for no reason, laughing inappropriately, like when people die or have gotten hurt, masturbating publicly, doing anything and I mean ANYTHING for attention, etc.) but in the past year we felt we had all gotten a handle on them and she had really improved. Not improved to please me, but improved as far as being a happier child and that's all I want for her. The past 2-3 weeks she has taken 5 giant steps back, she's totally regressed and it sends up a red flag to me that something triggered something!!
When I say that she has to be told everyday to complete even mundane tasks, please keep in mind that there are three other children going about their routine and she is still sitting there. If this is simply defiance, we can deal with it, but there is somewhat of a pattern. At times she will do great with the routine. Other times it's back to telling her to wipe when she uses the restroom and I am not exaggerating. This is an 8 1/2 year old kid. She's been potty trained since age 2.
I do believe that she is an outcast, but not because of her therapist. I think it's because she cannot speak or articulate what is going on in her brain. I think it's because she acts like a 2 year old--she walks like one, talks like one, and would prefer to be one. I wish I could better explain it, but I can assure you that it's not simply defiance nor is it regular normal kid stuff. Some things have made me wonder if she is mildly retarded. I know that sounds harsh, but having 4 kids and working with children for 15 years, I've seen some weird things, some great things, some normal things, and of course "kid" things. I'm no expert, but somethin' just ain't right. I wish I knew what it was.

Manda, I do wish you the best in getting a proper diagnosis and treatment for your "daughter". One thing notice in your post, you said you adopted her yet continue to refer to her a your "step daughter". I realize that living with her problems must be very difficult but I do wonder if you actually feel differently toward her than your other children.

eandhl,
Seeing that this is a stepfamilies forum and also seeing that I have three daughters, I clarify which child I am referring to when I say step-daughter.
Are you here to offer help or to criticize those that seek it by pointing out irrelevant terms?
I can honestly say that I love my step-daughter, daughter, whatever I call her. She calls me by my name, but that doesn't make me any less her mom. A rose is a rose, right?

I fully agree, what she calls you doesn't make you less a mom. After reading many threads on this forum I am sad the way so many children are treated and thought of. I am not here to critize you or anyone looking for help. I really did wonder why the title. Sorry if my question offended you, I did not mean to. I certainly see you have lots of stress and difficulty with the problems you are facing and hope for the best for you and your family.

Manda - I hope things have calmed down a bit, and that this turns out to be only a rough patch... But if not, I'd urge you most strongly to have her evaluated by someone really, really good. Rather than just picking a name out of your insurance plan book or getting a recommendation from your pediatrician or psych., I'd suggest a round of phone interviews first. Not all doc's are created equal. And as the mom of a child with special needs (and no correct diagnosis yet - just pieces), I can tell you that some doctors are pretty much useless when it comes to children's psychiatric disorders. Others are worth their weight in gold.

You want to find a doctor (or group practice) that is very familiar with: FAS, mental retardation syndromes, autism spectrum issues, childhood schizophrenia, ADD/ADHD, childhood sexual trauma, reactive attachment disorder, developmental disorders, and anything else you think might possibly fit. If they've never seen it before - believe me, they won't diagnose it. And if they treat you like an over-reactive parent, thank them for their time and cross them FIRMLY off your list.

Find a doctor who knows these issues well, and don't let your insurance plan determine whether or not you see this person. Many plans only cover certain doctors. But what they won't tell you is that if the doctors they include aren't qualified to deal with the problem you have, you can go out of plan to find one who is, and it will be covered as if it were in-plan. Not every plan works this way - but most do. And even if it's not covered -- getting the right diagnosis (or even useful pieces) is worth it.

One other point - and I say this with UTMOST SERIOUSNESS. You are her mother. If you feel deep down in your heart that something is wrong, it is. You know better than anyone else. Far better than any doctor can tell you after a 15 minute consult.

From what you've written, it sounds like her current problems are more to do with self-regulation and social appropriateness than sexual molestation, necessarily. Many children with issues laugh inappropriately when stressed, and it's the inappropriateness of the masturbation that's the biggest problem. She's doing things that are socially totally inappropriate, when before, she had more self-control.

Good luck - and please give us an update when you can. And bless you for loving this little girl. (She will give you much more than you know.)

sweeby,
Thank you for a most helpful and encouraging reply! I really appreciate you taking the time to share your wisdom. I am going to take your words to heart and begin a search for a doctor that can offer some REAL help for once.
I will keep you updated!

There is definitely something wrong. I do not want to alarm you, and I am not a mental health professional, but I have studied psychiatry in depth and to me it sounds like either development of Disorganized Schizophrenia with possibly a touch of Histrionic Personality Disorder (or she could just be discovering her sexuality and it is coming out through the inappropriate affect....schizophrenia), or possibly even Schizophreniform Disorder. These can occur in children as well as adults, and some are genetic, although the Borderline Personality Disorder that her mother has is entirely different.

I have experience with all disorders I mentioned above (not myself), and they can come on quite suddenly, so she may have been ok at the time her counselor last saw her.

There is a terrific website where you can do a self diagnosis (to encourage people to seek treatment) for about $50 I think for a membership. They have free stuff too, but this is a valuable tool since most psychiatrists will disagree on diagnosis and treatment etc. They have journals, etc. where you can monitor behavior, and access to helpful tools.

http://www.mentalhealth.com/

Look up all those I mentioned above, read up, and look at others if it doesn't quite fit.

This needs to be addressed before it gets worse....please please do. Keep careful written record (date and times) of anything strange you notice...and take video if you possibly can so who ever treats her can witness firsthand. Don't worry though....she will most likely be ok if help is sought promptly.

Manda,
I remember you mentioning that you have a baby. I hope you do not feel paralyzed in regard to seeking the answeres you need because the time you can spend on this concern is so fragmented. It would be great if you could find someone to take over for you one morning or afternoon a week so you can devote the time you need to make contacts.

Best to you, Manda

Thank you, Victoria, for the help. That is very interesting, I do appreciate the website and the facts to look up.
Brass tacks, I do have a baby. Fortunately, she is on a wonderful schedule and with the others in school, time is really on my side! But since you mentioned my baby, I am concerned about any possibility of the baby being with SD. Sometimes as I am doing things around the house, I will put baby in her exersaucer or baby chair and the kids will entertain her. I don't do this with SD as I am concerned and to be honest, a bit afraid. Victoria (or anyone!), should this be a concern with any of the disorders you mentioned? Thank you all for your continued support!!!!

If your SD's impulse control is impaired - and it sounds like it is - then yes, you should be concerned. Protecting your baby is your most sacrad duty as a mother. Of course, protecting all of your children is...

Many different drugs can do different things to fetuses at different stages during the pregnancy, I would have to question whether or not there was drug use during the pregnancy. My littlest step daughter caught the brunt of her mothers depressions and was born with meth in her system. She look perfectly healthy a beautiful girl but is very immature and has troubles in school, she has facial "ticks" much like turrettes and also used to touch herself at inappropriate times. She has a very sharp memory and can pass in school by memorizing what she needs to know, but can not function when given new material. Meth is the most devestating drug there is due to the fact that Doctor's still aren't sure of all of the possible defects it can cause. Some children show no signs of problems until much later in life... It is hard to assume what might be wrong when you don't have the first hand information. Definately seek a very good psychologist I would research many an find one that believes in truely finding out what is wrong before just "trying" meds. In todays society many counselors/therapist take only a few minutes to determine what they believe is wrong with a person... Trust me as a parent of a speacial needs child and as a borderline personality person myself it is IMPERITIVE that you find someone whom is willing to put the effort in to really find the root of the problems. I was put on many different meds at a young age and none of them helped handle the issues I faced, instead they would make me "zone out" and become a zombie. Now after many years on the right dosage of my meds I am leading a very fulfilled life and able to handle day to day stressors. I would also contact a good pediatrician to provide you with possible physical defects the child may suffer from. Many problems lay hidden and without a good Doctors help may always cause problems for the little one.

Sandstone,
Her mother used meth throughout her pregnancy. I think it's amazing that you picked up on the similarities. Thanks for your help! :)

I use to own a company that performed background checks and became way more familiar with sexual child abuse than I'd like.

Its possible that you're talking about 2 (or more) seperate issues here--

Your sd's behavior indicates that she's a sexualized child-- of course, all kids learn about and explore their bodies... it happens naturally. But when someone *helps* them along, the term 'sexualized' is used--

Sexual abuse can be primary or secondary-- primary would be abuse by an adult or caregiver (babysitter or other). Secondary would be from another sexualized child. Sexualized children tend to introduce another person (or animal as you described) into the equation. You may never know exactly what happened, and she may never remember-- but now its more important to understand the behaviors that sexualized children display and develop a pro-active response to future incidents.

You've had tons of great advice here and I've actually never been to this board before and hesitate to throw my 2-cents in, however you said you have a baby and sexualized children tend to act out with/on other children. You'll need to be very careful to protect your younger child-- not just now, but even much later. Your sd may learn not to masterbate in public, but that doesn't mean she won't act out in private later and a younger child in the household can be a prime target.

Sorry for butting in--