Is there a court order for visitation?

It isn't your fault that BM hasn't seen her, but it would benefit SD to see her in whatever way you and DH can. This situation is going to be a judgement call for DH (unless there is a court order and it spells out Fathers Day.)

There is a court order. She is to give two weeks notice before a weekend visit. DH has full legal and physical custody since she was a toddler. We don't have any holidays spelled out except for Christmas and Thanksgiving and she has used that once within the past ten years.
Our gut says to tell her to pick another weekend, too bad,we have plans, you can't just pop up after 6 mos and expect for things to go exactly your way.
But this is about SD not our personal opinion/issues of BM you know? That is why I am questioning our gut reaction. Is it really our anger at her for choice to not be involved and take care of her daughter?
Then again is it even healthy for SD if she does a visit and then just disapears again. SD heart is broken every time it happens. It's just a screwed up situation all around. I want to do whats best for SD.

fiveinall, with the information that you provided I'm afraid you and Dh don't even have a choice legally. She is abiding by the court order in giving two weeks and there is not a stipulation for Mother/Fathers Day.

If DH denies her, he risks getting a contempt of court charge at the least.

In addition, it is not up to you or DH to decide that she hasn't been around enough to use her visitation rights. It does sound like it is personal/gut reactions from what you have posted though. Mom has a right to see her child and if she works weekends, then DH should be even more willing to give Mom any time she requests. When you say what is best for SD -- well, obviously it is best that she sees her Mom as much as possible. I would try to keep that in mind.

I do think it is a shame that it is on Fathers Day, but in my family Mothers/Fathers Day aren't that big of a deal. But each family has their own traditions.

Fiveinall,

It is Father's Day, if you have plans then she should pick another weekend! Of all times to pick visitation it is pretty convenient that she picks a holiday for dads.

Honestly, what is she going to do. Take you to court after not paying cs and disappearing for 6 months and cry to the judge that your dh wanted his daughter for Father's Day?

Give her the option of another weekend, do not mess up your plans because she has decided she wants to be a mom all of a sudden.

" When you say what is best for SD -- well, obviously it is best that she sees her Mom as much as possible."

Giggle, I fear you are being a bit presumptuous with that statement. You don't know the history here, you don't know the reasons dad has had custody since she was a toddler, or what causes mom to be gone for 6 months at a time. It could actually to more harm than good for SD to see her on this weekend - it's not for us to say either way.

"Mom has a right to see her child and if she works weekends, then DH should be even more willing to give Mom any time she requests."

This may be true, but I think mom also needs to uphold a certain amount of respect for her daughter's plans and the structure her home has. If mom is allowed to fly in and out as the wind blows it the potential is there to put the daughter in a place where she has to choose between an important even and her fly by night mom, and that isn't right. She can't disappear and then expect a parade when she decides to play mom again.

I do agree though that if she is giving the required 2 weeks and there is no stipulation that SD be with her dad on Father's Day that you are really without a legal reason to deny the request. Yes, it's very rude, and likely intentional, that she has picked Father's Day weekend, but I don't know how much can be done about that. Has anyone considered if SD will be upset that she won't be able to spend the day with her dad? How important is that to her?

JNM, no I don't feel as if I am being presumptious. If the history was that bad, she would have supervised or a tighter restriction on visitation. As it is, she has a loose schedule. The custodial parent does not have the right (especially with this court order) to determine if it is best for the child to visit the other parent.

If she works weekends and this is the only weekend she has free in a while, then it makes sense that she would want this weekend. If you are using your logic that you are applying to me -- than it is presumptious to assume that she is doing it on purpose.

If she isn't paying CS, then file contempt. But it is a separate action and not paying CS does not take away any visitation rights the parent may have. And again, the custodial parent doesn't get to make that choice -- the court order does.

IMHO bm has not made any effort to see her child for 6 months, so not allowing her to take fathers day away from the father will not kill bm. And what if dd is looking forward to spending fathers day with her father?

Even if bm works weekends why can she not take her dd out for a few hours on a weeknight? Or even afterwork on a weekend? Come on! And if she works so darn much where the heck is child support???

I just hate when a ncp does not do their part in raising their child and then thinks that they can just rush in and make everyone accommodate them. If visitation was so important to her then she would have been exercising it consistantly. There is no frickin excuse for not seeing your child for 6 months, especially if your in driving distance!

I doubt this would go to court. If it did I doubt a judge is going to do much about it given her history of not exercising visitation and the fact that she decided to pick fathers day to try to visit her child!

mom2emall, visitation is voluntary. The NCP does not have to exercise it but has the rights that are layed out in the court order. This BM may not take it to court, but she may and she has every right to. In my area, this is actually one of the few things that will overturn custody quite easily (or easier than most cases) and is considered a significant change in circumstances -- denying the NCP visitation when they have a court order. Although there is usually a few times that this happens before a mod. to custody is started, but certainly just ONE instance will bring contempt charges if the NCP intiates it.

While I understand what you are saying, BM isn't winning a Mother of the Year award -- she does have the legal rights here and I don't think it is really responsible to advise someone to go against a court order or make it seem like it is okay to do so. It's one thing if they are able to talk to BM and she agrees to not take that weekend, but another to tell her she can't. Just my opinion.

It says she is to give two weeks notice before a weekend visit. That does not necessarily mean that she can always have the weekends she wants. Things can be planned in advance, like fathers day!

Now if dad and sm were constantly saying that she could not take dd for the weekend that would be one thing. But telling bm sorry, that weekend is booked due to Father's Day so you will have to choose another weekend is not denying visitation.

Giggle, I think you may be missing my point? The original post really wasn't about whether it was good for SD to see her mom, it was if they should let mom blow in and disrupt their Father's Day plans. Fiveinall then questioned if the visitation would do more harm that good just based on the fact it could be another 6 months before SD sees her mom again. You and I can't answer that. We don't know what mom has been doing for 6 months. What if her past was merely questionable, but for the last six months she's been doing meth? Robbing banks? Wearing white before Memorial Day? We don't know, so I don't think we are qualified to make the assumption that the hands down best thing is for her to see her mom, no matter what it may disrupt. I don't believe CS was ever mentioned by the OP, so I don't know what we need to toss that variable into the mix. I agree it is a separate issue and should never be in the same conversation as visitation, so let's not add it now.

I find it highly unlikely that this woman hasn't had one weekend off in six months, but I admit to being presumptuous in assuming it's purposeful that she's come back this one weekend. I deal with a mom who uses underhanded tactics like this so I am pre-programmed to be pessimistic.

It's summertime, why can't she have a visit during the week? If she works weekends, she could take her on her days off during a week. It doesn't make sense why it has to be on a weekend and if the family has plans for a holiday weekend, even if it's not spelled out in the court order, then if she is given an opportunity to pick another date, I doubt a court would give a rats behind if BM complains. The court is more likely to ask why she isn't in her daughters life on a regular basis. I don't see the courts give a lot of sympathy to dead beat parents that want to stroll in a day late and take the first place in line. BS

how far does BM live? she should be able to take SD another time. fathers Day is probably a good time to spend wiht dad!

on the other hand since she did not see mom for 6 months, she might not see her another 6 months and maybe it is better just to let her go and see mom. tough call. i really do not know what i would do...

i wonder what would make SD more happy...stay with dad, or see mom...I guess you have to do what is the best for SD...but who knows what is the best...

JNM, OP says this in her second posting:

But this is about SD not our personal opinion/issues of BM you know? That is why I am questioning our gut reaction. Is it really our anger at her for choice to not be involved and take care of her daughter?
Then again is it even healthy for SD if she does a visit and then just disapears again. SD heart is broken every time it happens. It's just a screwed up situation all around. I want to do whats best for SD.

It sounds to me that they are conflicted on what is the best thing to do after all. I agree, I think I am pre-programmed to pick out out of the postings that stick out for me.

You summed up what I was saying however, NO ONE can know what BM was doing. Not even the OP and her DH. They (from what she stated by the court order) do not have the right to deny visitation. If BM picking a weekend of her choosing is a problem, then they need to get it fixed. But if everyone got to go against their court order -- there would chaos in the court systems -- wait there already is!

I am amazed at some thoughts about what Judges will/won't do. Obviously I am in a much stricter area. If a case went before a Judge where the court order was clearly broken -- well, not only have you wasted court time and money and will probably continue to -- you broke the kindegarten rules (stuff layed out for you b/c you can't do it yourself with the other parent)-- it's a no brainer here.

It's summertime? I am sure my kids wish it were, but the kids in public school around here are preparing for final exams, finishing up end of the year projects, etc. Some of them barely have time to notice that the weather is finally nice, and won't have a moment to breathe for the next several weeks.

ima mentioned something about having to worry rather than "having fun" like other teenagers. I don't know what universe she grew up in, but when I was growing up, and from what I see among teenagers I know, teenagers spend a lot of time worrying and very little having fun. It is not just worry about their social lives or lack thereof, or getting into a good college - the teenagers I know worry about war, and global warming, and whether the world is still going to be around for their children to grow up in. You couldn't pay me enough to be a teenager again, and I have yet to meet anyone IRL who would describe his or her teenage years as anything approaching "fun."

I agree that end of May is a very busy time for teenagers, well for the ones who value education.... but by the middle of June (Fathers Day) most schools should be over unless SD attends some type of school with the extended year.

To piggyback, I think kids "worry" when their parents put it on them a lot of the times. Kids don't get to choose whether they have to visit their parent or not, it is up to the parents to tell the children what they are doing and then proceed with it. Stomping around about it being Fathers Day will only show the child to do the same, if it is not a big deal the child will probably not act like it is either. But if the child does consider it a big deal, then Mom will have to handle that on her visitation time and will probably think twice about doing it again.

Asking the child can backfire. Maybe she wants to see Mom more than spend it with Dad on Fathers Day, and may not tell him that if he asks. Or maybe wants to spend the day with Dad, but doesn't want to tell Mom that if she asks. It's not fair to put that on a child. It's just simply impossible to tell.

Does the court order provide for anything like unless previous plans are in place or something along those lines. It seems pretty obscure to only have a two week notice for any weekend visit. I mean especially with summer it seems like there should be some sort of veto power if plans are already made ... She can just randomly show up and decide that this is the weekend I am taking my daughter??

Well, I dont know but with or without a clause in there I would probably say no to her on taking her fathers day weekend. I would offer her other weekends and I would offer her to take dd maybe friday and satureday but with the understanding that she must be home by x time sunday morning (even if you have to pick her up to make sure that happens) That way she still gets to see her mom and gets to enjoy fathers day with her dad...you know the parent that deserves to have it ... that has stepped up to his responsibilities.

As far as wether or not it is good for her... I am generally of the opinion No it is not good for her to have BM bouncing in and out of her life. I did not notice how old SD is but if she is old enough perhaps you can talk to her about it. Especially if she is a teenager she may have her own opinions as to wether or not she wants to see her mom. I am not one of those that believes that just because you donated sperm or gave birth that you are necessarily a mother or a father or that the child "needs" to have that person in their life if they are just going to cause pain and heart ache. That being said... you cant exactly cut them out of their lives (not legally anyways) or at least until a court tells you you can. Just prepare her before and be prepared for after... she will need you.

I didn't read all the replies carefully, so someone may have already suggested this...
Why not compromise to "OK, but can you please pick her up on Friday evening and have her back on Sunday at noon? It's Father's Day and we have some family plans in the afternoon."

I would tell mom what the plans are and see what solutions she has..I find myself as I am getting older putting less effort into trying to make things perfect or please everyone involved or stressing over things and more time just letting people solve their own problems.

How about- Sunday is Father's Day and we have family plans at noon (pause----she might suggest something herself)if she doesn't than give her the options of another weekend or a shortened Friday/Saturday visit.

Thanks for all of the replies. You all have very good points and advice. I think we kinda shot ourselves in the foot with the court order we have now. For many years BM was supposed to take SD every other weekend (set schedule), Something would always come up and she would cancel work etc... visitation was extremely irregular even with the set schedule...and for many years we held SD while she cried when visit after visit was canceled. So when it came time to change the visitation schedule (she moved + we moved around the same time) we decided to set up the flexible visitation so when SD did get a phone call it was a good one about getting to go see BM rather than a cancelation. Hope that makes sense. To see her feel so rejected and the look of dispapointment in her eyes when we would tell her BM had called was one of the worst feeling in the world. So we basically said call us two weeks before you want to do a visit, that way you can make it work out better with your schedule and SD feelings aren't always hurt. She agreed and our lawyer filed the paperwork. She is now less involved now than before. We removed the "excuses" as to why she can't take SD and it has only gotten worse.
There is a history of neglect, abandonment and just downright bad choices on BM's part. DH has raised SD FT since she was 2 on his own,I have raised SD FT since she was three she is now 10. She desperately wants BM to take her for a visit. She is happy when she does get to go it is pretty much Disney Land for her. I do worry about the current situation now because we really do have no idea what is going on in BM's life. The only thing I can rationalize is that she has some sort of problem, be it drugs or alcohol or something wrong with her to make her not want to parent her child for all of these years. I would have to be in the ground before I would miss out on raising any of my children SD included.
As far as being flexible with a mom who works weekends I can undersatnd that but in our case she has been unemployed for extended periods of time and still not used visitation. She says she has been working for a long time now but child support enforcement says she no longer works there and we definately haven't recieved any money. So I really even question that Its the only time she could get off work because I just don't know if she is really working.
We have left two messages since we got her message. Still have not heard back from her to even discuss that this is fathers day weekend. We have decided to tell her she can do that weekend but SD needs to be home on Sunday. She can do Thurs thru Sat, (SD is on summer break as of today)choose the following weekend, or another time during the week but SD will be with DH on Fathers Day.

Actually, FD, school isn't out here until after Father's Day - and it is out fairly early this year. Often the last day is is around the 23rd or later.

Wow TOS, thats late! I have never heard of any schools out here in session that late. Even when a district in the city had a strike a few years ago they made up the time and were still out by then!

When does school start for the year by you? My kids started end of August and are done already!

Our schools go until mid-late June too - at least the 18th... I think the last day is the 20th?? (I'll have to double check)

Last day here is June 11; they started after Labor Day.

yes some schools are getting out later than others. the other thing is that in our state regular public schools start only after labor day (new law) so obviously schools end later as well.

DD attended school with the extended year and they would always get out later and start earlier and I had hard time explain to people why Dd cannot do this or that. she is in school. why is she in school? ...blah blah

fiveinail, it sounds like mom might not even take SD at all, she says she would, you make plans, but then she does not show up. keep us posted.

Most schools start before Labor Day, though a few start the day after. It just takes a long time to complete 180 days, between having a week off in February and another in April, an occasional Professional Day, Good Friday, Yom Kippur, and Rosh Hashanah, and snow days.

Wanted to drop a note and give an update. Last time I posted we had decided to tell BM she could have Thurs to Sat but sd needed to be home on fathers day.So bm said shed see about getting Thurs off at work. (she was already off Fri and Sat.... and we never heard a word back. Finally DH made contact on Mon and said we needed to know so we could make plans. Got a message back canceling for schedule changes at work..WTH? It has now been almost 7 months with no contact or visit for SD. And if she is working where the heck is the child support?? It is really far behind and CSE says they have no record of employment where she claimed to be working...... We are trying to figure out whether we should tell SD we had contact with BM or not. on one hand I think SD has a right to know that we heard from BM even though BM didn't ask to talk to SD and hasn't in the past 7 months. Originally, We were holding off telling her there would be a visit until we were sure there would be and now I am glad we didn't tell her. Would have been just another let down. on the other hand if we do tell her we had contact what do we have to tell her? thaat BM made contact but BM is still unable to visit? I really don't want to tell sd she said she was gonna visit and then canceled...that will only make sd feel bad..WWYD?

I personally wouldn't even tell her BM called, would just rub salt in her wound. With kids you reach a certain point of 'out of sight out of mind'. Telling her BM called, didn't want to talk to her and then canceled a visit will just open up the wounds she already has in regards to her mother.

I agree. don't tell the kids. too much pain...

If they happen to ask when you last heard from her I would not lie to cover up her piss poor parenting, but I wouldn't go advertise it, either. Sometimes no news really is good news.

It almost seems like bm tried to ask to visit sd on a weekend that you would likely say no. When you tried to accommodate her she lost.

Her goal was likely not to see her dd, but to make it seem as though you and dh were keeping her from seeing her dd.

Sad!