I am sorry for you. I am first wife, and was devasted when my x left me for a woman he met at work that he had affair with.

I am curious about that one phrase, "The kids will leave and the two of you will be there together" - this seems peculiar for someone on a second marriage to say. People on second marriages should accept that marriages dont always last, but your child is always your child.

I know Dr. Phil says this. Isnt he also making money endorsing Eharmony (the home of the want to be marrieds -- which I am not knocking -- including divorced people). Seems like a little conflict of interest to me.

kkny-
As a second wife, I graciously accept your point about marriages not lasting. HOWEVER, I don't think anyone EVER gets married whilst thinking it's not going to be forever. To be honest (and I mean absolutely no offense, here) most second wives (right OR NOT) operate under the belief that they are a better match, the relationship is "different", etc....so I don't think anyone (wants to) ACCEPT that it won't last.

Also, I think her comment about putting the marriage first, regarding SC in her particular case, was right on--regarding ANY children.

Sorry to have jumped in on your note to the OP...but I have been checking this thread since I saw it earlier today.

Sarah---we are thinking about you! Keep posting...at a minimum, it's cathartic to just "get it all out"....hang in there. Big hugs!

sarahl,
I am very sorry for your situation. Maybe your husband will see the light before it is too late. There is hope, my husband seen it also and my marriage is saved. You are correct, one day children will leave the home and two adults who love each other can still have that marriage they so deserve. If he does not see this - well he will not see it with anyone because the stepchild will come in between he and someone else (if there is someone else).

Second marriages I believe are in many cases stronger. Just like mmommy said. You both know what you are NOT looking for. It will last if you love each other truly enough and that means not letting anyone come between that bond. Kids do grow up and have families of their own. They leave - period.

Mmommy,

Of course, everyone gets married expecting the marriage will last (Ok, except maybe Federle, or whatever Britney's husband was named). Statistically, second marriages have a greater divorce rate than first, and second marriages with children involved go off the chart.

And even when children leave the home, they can still be there. My siblings and I help out my mom as needed. An x is gone.

kkny-
I guess I wasn't clear in my earlier post...I clearly understand what you are saying and acknowledge the validity of the statistics you are referring to. My point was that no matter what the reality, people participating in a second marriage believe they are being joined just as much forever as those in a first marriage. Of course it's harder with children (step and bio) and (sometimes) ex's in the mix. My point is that once it's a marriage (first second, whatever) there is usually the expectation that it's a lifelong commitment. While I agree that the relationships with children are extremely important, I maintain the position of the marriage being to be the number one priority, regardless.

*note* I used the term "participating in a second marriage" above...I'm referring to the situation where it's a first marriage for one, and the second for the other. The reality of "what can happen" is crystal clear to two people marrying for the second time. If it's the first for one person, this certainly adds another layer.

Sarah--still thinking of you....Your life does not suck....the situation does!

No I agree, anyone in a marriage thinks it will last forever.

Its funny, one time I remember reading one of those little "advice" books to men, and it said, dont go out with a woman with a child, the child will always come first. I understand that now, and at least in my case, its true, the child will always come first. I brought her into this world and she needs me.

That's an interesting tid bit. I wonder why in (especially a first) marriage, the thinking is that the marital relationship should come first, but once divorced (and for some, the thinking persists into a second marriage), the children should come first.

hmmmm....

Okay, Sarah.....we keep checking on you and now we're wandering off your OP! :)

Of course the children's needs come first. Is there really anyone here who would serve the last ounce of food in the house to her spouse if their children were starving? Would you even want a spouse who would let his children starve so he could survive?

From an evolutionary perspective, in an intact family actions that benefit the children increase the likelihood of the parents genes being passed down, and conversely, actions that benefit the marriage tend to increase the survival rate of the offspring. This is not necessarily the case in blended families.

"Of course the children's needs come first. Is there really anyone here who would serve the last ounce of food in the house to her spouse if their children were starving? Would you even want a spouse who would let his children starve so he could survive?
From an evolutionary perspective, in an intact family actions that benefit the children increase the likelihood of the parents genes being passed down, and conversely, actions that benefit the marriage tend to increase the survival rate of the offspring. This is not necessarily the case in blended families."

Sorry but from an evolutionary/biology perspective it is not so: a species survives only if the adults , that are able to find food and reproduce later survive, so even in humans, if the food is scarce, the first thing it happens is that the mothers'milk dries (if the mother loses more than 20% of her fat reserve, she stops lactating ) so newborns are the first to go, then if they lose just 10% of their weight (so much before starvation) under 5 years old children and older people start to fall prey to infective illnesses, while young men and women generally are the survivors. This is what happens NATURALLY and it makes sense because while children alone will die even if they have food, if the mother an father survive, they can have other children. This is what happpening NOW in many primitive societies, where people have 10 children to see only 1 or 2 reach maturity or in Darfur.

So while I agree that children needs (but the debate is still open on what are REALLY the children's needs and which kind of family should provide for them) are very important, this is a MORAL or SOCIAL consideration, non a NATURAL or BIOLOGICAL law.

I'm sorry for your situation and it's so sad that a child is permitted to cause that much hate and discontent in a once happy household and a loving marriage. Your ex-husband is at fault for that. NO child should be given that much power in an adult's life.

Marriages need to be put first and it's quite clear that some people on this forum do/don't agree with that; however, in general, children today have been given entirely too much from their parents: cell phones, video games, electronics, computers, high price clothing and shoes, unearned allowances, too much say in their first and second marriages. We're talking about children here! There's a reason why there are laws about them being able to drive, vote, and drink at a certain age. It's to protect society as well as the common good of our communities; to preserve what we already have in order for it to continue to thrive. No where is it written that we, as parents, are supposed to put our lives on hold to give them anything I've listed above.

searer's post is dead on about the evolutionary/biology perspective and moral/social considerations of a child's needs.

Back to sarahl post. I totally understand how you feel. Is this stepchild who drove a wedge between you and your DH an adult now? If so I have been where you are and it really is very painful. You are not alone.
My adult stepchildren (2 of them) have continually attempt to destroy our marriage. It has been 6 years now and the attempts to ruin our marriage have diminished slightly. The stepchildren do not attempted to disrupt our relationship as often, however, it might have to do with us moving further away from the ex and the stepkids. We are not as convenient to cause trouble with.
I have lived with not being acknowledged or respected, personal items of mine being stolen from our house or destroyed, the step kids allowing the ex to come into our home when were not there, the adult stepkids attempting to get bio mom and DH back together, adult stepkids attempting to set up DH with other single women, adult stepkids attempting to influence DH to spend "our" money on extravegant unnecessary items (expensive trip, cars, furniture) for them, the list goes on and on.

I have always put my marriage first because I can. I do not have children of my own. My career involves working with children and I love children and they love me. However, no matter what I did to be nice to these 2 adult stepkids they do not care about me in return. I finally gave up and I am who I am. All other people I come in contact with like me. So I guess it has something to do with the adult stepkids hang ups and it is there own problem not mine. I don't care anymore. DH and I love each other, enjoy each other and that is what counts.

I still occassionally get tired of the stepkids requests that affect me personally, but, I believe DH is starting to see through there under lying ways. He is starting to put a stop to their wrongful attempts before they get to me. I am happy DH is seeing through some of the requests as ways to cause trouble in our marriage. I believe the stepkids are realizing too that DH is not going to allow them to destroy our marriage. Thank goodness. Maybe there is still hope for you.

Is your stepchild gone? Marine? I guess, I didn't understand the last part of your post. If stepchild is away it may be a good time to rebuild your marriage. Keep the topics to things about you two as a couple. Do not talk about the stepkids. Try to do things the two of you used to do when you were happy. Maybe try some counciling. Keep your chin up and let me know how things are going. I have been and felt as you do many a times.

Oh I see, the SM position is that a SK can destroy a marriage, but not the "other woman" (becuase in that case the marriage was dead anyway).

bitter ex- wives have more of say in destroying a marriage than children do ...Who enabled the children to think they can say and do whatever they want to "an adult" would they treat other adults in their lives the way they treat SMs ... if a child spoke to a coach, teacher, priest, friends parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents, any adult in their life ... the way they talk to step parents, encouraged by bitter biological parents. The biological parent would be ashamed but because its a step parent its acceptable.

cawfecup, I completely agree with you. I do not believe in adultery - under ANY circumstances, but it does happen. When it happens and their are children involved, although I am sure it would be hard, the parent should not encourage hatred, or by any means talk to the child at that time about the affair. No one should teach their child to disrespect anyone - even if it is the TOW, and definitely the father. When you bad mouth the parent who did not stay in the marriage, then you are being very selfish. I am not saying hide the fact that the other parent cheated, I am saying there is a tactful way of explaining to children what has happened. Now in most cases, the marriage just ended due to not getting along. The reason SK's disrespect their SP's is due to the other bio parent. You can say that is not true, but think about it, where else would they develop the hatred they have? They are taught. Children need alot of attention, but if you do not put your marriage a 1st priority, then you are neglecting your kids, when mom and dad, or SM/Dad, are happy, the chidren are happy. When they do not work together as a united pair, the family will go many different directions. It is in the Bible - marriage comes first. Well God comes first, but you know what I mean. I believe when a marriage dissolves it is due to BOTH husband and wife not joining together as one and making their marriage the top priority, then that slowly flows down to the kids and they are a strong family.

sunnygardener, You wrote :

****However, no matter what I did to be nice to these 2 adult stepkids they do not care about me in return. I finally gave up and I am who I am. All other people I come in contact with like me. So I guess it has something to do with the adult stepkids hang ups and it is there own problem not mine. I don't care anymore.***

I feel the same way as you do towards my oldest SD and starting to feel also like that towards the other two SC.

I feel like I've given it my all and now I am exhausted of the pain, sadness all of them, including DH, have caused in my life.

Let me just say that your words ispire me and give me courage to think more about myself and less about what makes others happy (i.e. SC & DH). I've tried to do this for 18 years, and slowly but surely I am getting there. It's the only darn way I will be able to preserve my mental sanity in my relationship with DH.

Sarah, please keep posting.

My child saw with own eyes x cheating (staying out overnite, giving excuse after excuse. Then X living with GF it became clear) I never said X cheated. At a certain age, children can figure these things out for themselves.

Do you think any child would respect SM he knew to be OW? Do you think most children want intact families? Do you think Child needs to be taught to disrpect OW?

My husband actually does have someone he is "close friends" with, a woman. The kids all know about it because her daughter came up to mine at the dance and told her that my daughter's dad and her mom were dating. I found out about it the following week.
This mess is about my husband blaming me for the son joining the marines, me pulling away from him blaming me, then me getting mad about the blame and shutting him out. Then husband found other woman - whatever that mess is. He has filed now and won't work on the marriage at all at this point. His parents and family and our friends all thing he has gone off the deep end. He is not the man i married or the man they know right now. I don't know if he is in a mid life crisis or what. I went to the drs because my counselor told me to. I told him what is going on - he knows my husband and says he needs to come in and see him and be put in meds.
My husband has been laid off and has been drinking heavily and out all night. He is just not right. He tells me he doesn't want to hurt me - but he is, and everyone else.
Saray

This website has helped me a lot.

How a SM can say marriage comes first, look to the bible, after dating a married man (oh and I am certain he said my marriage was dead, my wife is looking to get out, etc, and then of course SM thinks X is psycho when she is unhappy with divorce -- even children realize this is malarky).

Oh and the no one can break up a good marriage (only skids and their mom, apparently)

You reap what you sow.

And yes, I realize not every SM was the other woman, but plenty were.

I am sorry the children are suffering.

Sarahl, I'm so sorry about your situation. It sounds like your husband has a whole bunch of issues - loss of job, drinking heavily, the other woman, son joining Marines - and he needs someone to blame. It's too bad he's chosen to blame you, because none of this is your fault. He does need counseling. For a lot of men, their identities are closely tied to their employment, and with being laid off, your husband probably feels like he has lost some control over his life, and this has led to the downward spiral in every other aspect of his life. Again, this is not your fault. Your husband needs to understand what is driving his actions and not blame you. Would he be willing to see a counselor?

Note to kkny - how has this website helped you alot? You still seem pretty bitter. You know that no one can break up a good marriage. Marriages that break up are not good marriages, and in the case of infidelity, it's not just the other women, it's also the men. It takes two to tango, and if anything, the dad should feel more of a commitment to keep his marriage and family safe than does TOW. In the case of second marriages, if the marital discord is caused by the SC not wanting the SP to be in the picture, which is often the case, the marriage can still be a strong one if the BD is supportive of the SM. However, if the BD is not supportive, and allows SC to mistreat the SM, that breakup would be the fault of both the SC and the BD. kkny, I don't even know what your comments have to do with sarahl's situation, and they certainly aren't helpful to her.

This website has helped me a lot becuase I have a better understanding that my Xs GF can be onesided (our relationship comes first, then children) and I should not feel guilty about ignoring them.

heck, she didnt feel guilty about going out with a married man.

I was not a first wife but with someone for 15 years ... He left for the other woman 7 years ago ... still with her my kids don't have a clue he cheated on me with her NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS they have atleast not to my knowledge disrespected her, talked down to her, other than normal kids stuff ... because if they did I would take issue with it. She is an adult with feelings and they will treat her as such.

The "kid" posted on a myspace account how much he "hated" his stepmom and was happy they were divorcing... So the kid is happy everyone around him is miserable? and now there is another woman ...

So its not bad enough the son and father berated the SM to her face its now online. Have you ever looked at a kids myspace account ... they give detailed information so all his friends know what a low life his dad is. He must be proud!! and looking forward to a new target to bully around with his parents blessing.

If son put a comment about BM on myspace account would dad and mom have something to say about it? but because its about SM its ok?

tamar 422, you are so right on! That is what I was thinking kkny, how can this website help you? I am assuming you are not a SM, not sure. I have not seen on this forum where any SM came between her husband and his x. It is true, if a person has strong marriage, nothing can come between them. If a person wants to stray, usually there is a reason. If there is absolutely no reason a husband strays, then he is just a sorry SOB and is not worth having at all...that does not make it TOW's fault. Although there are women out there who TRY and destroy marriages, just to see if they can. Nine times out of ten - that woman will not stick around when the marriage fails! I thank God that my husband did not let his kids and x come between us. Our marriage is just as strong as it was in the beginning.

sarahl, you will end up a happy person - some way or another. Take care of yourself and take your pride and walk the other way....your husband is not a very strong person. I do not it is going to be you that has made him "stray" - it is thanks to your SS. Maybe it is best if you do not fight for it. If you did win, you sound like the type person who would really not be happy due to his behaviors toward you. You deserve more.

What matters from an evolutionary perspective is how many descendants survive - whether because most of those born survive, or because many, many are born although a smaller proportion survive.

Once offspring are old enough to survive on their own (which for most of human history was a lot earlier than it is now), it no longer matters if the parents die.

Parents throughout the animal kingdom suffer some degree of risk in order to nourish their offspring - in terms of giving up food, or risking getting eaten, etc. If parents truly put themselves first they would never have children to begin with, because pregnancy and childbirth have, until recently, been very risky.

"Parents throughout the animal kingdom suffer some degree of risk in order to nourish their offspring - in terms of giving up food, or risking getting eaten, etc. If parents truly put themselves first they would never have children to begin with, because pregnancy and childbirth have, until recently, been very risky."

parents throughout the animal kingdom devour their children if the children are too feeble to survive or abandon them if they can not feed them and anyway stop producing milk or even breeding if they are undernourished. Ask any vet.

Human children can not survive alone even in primitive situation before 9-10 years and that means that by an evolutionary perspective it is better for the species that fertile parents to survive than their children. The parents can migrate and find better pastures, the children can't.
Also for the gene pool starving and illnesses are a simple way to naturally select the strongest and the healthiest, so the survivor can breed an even "better" generation

This s the reason why HUMANS INVENTED SOCIETY where our life is not regulated around natural law (the strongest survive, the weak dies) but around social law so we use enormous resources to keep alive and nurture our weak and sick for the contribution they are able to give to our humanity and not to our gene pool.

sarahl, I feel for you. So sorry it has gone this far. There is another women and he has filed for divorce. Well, remember you deserve better. Did he start seeing you before he had left the woman he was married to before you? He might be the type of man who just cannot be married and likes to play around.

My first husband was like that. We were married for 18 years and he had plenty of affairs. I do not know why I stuck around so long. My 2nd marriage the current marriage my DH is not a cheater. DH and I met shortly after we divorced are 1st spouses. Our Xs both cheated on us, so we both know what it feels like to be slapped in the face. I believe some people just like to have affairs and enjoy the excitement.

With my current marriage the only thing that disrupts our marriage is his kids. I sometimes feel he is married to his kids and not me. SS often interferes with "our" finances, which, I do not like. I am DH's partner not his 21 year old college son. I feel that my adult stepkids over step boundaries and need to get their own life and leave ours alone. The adult stepkids are so very persistent when the want something and keep on DH until they get it. It drives me crazy. They can come and visit anytime, but stay out of our personal marriage interests/finances. It is just as much of DH fault as theirs for allowing them to be more like buddies then like a child/parent relationship.

After reading kkny post and a few others. I want you to know I have never been the other woman. I have never had an affair in my life and never plan to. I do want to say that when I got divorced, before I met my current DH and I was single, there were alot of married men out there attempting to have affairs with me. I put a stop to each and everyone of them. It amazed me how many unfaithful people are out there. What is wrong with them? Thats why I say I think alot of people are not meant to be married and should remain single and childless. This way they would not hurt their spouses or their children.

Sarahl it is not your fault and just remember to treat yourself today and everyday. Best of luck

Actually friends,
My husband has never been like this before.
He hated cheating - he came home one day and found his first wife in bed with another guy, with the kids in the house. He swore to me he would never do such a thing to me.
I received an e mail from the kid in marines threatening me and saying more awful things. I called my mother in law and told her about it. She is furious. She had already sent a letter out to the kid and will send another one. My husband is not at all acting like the man I married - I can't find the man I married inside the shell of what he is right now.
This kid has been trouble from day one - it has been 9 years of it. He is finaly out of the house and there is peace with out him - all the kids love me and it could be so great - actually perfect if there is such a world. Now my husband is nuts and my whole world is falling apart.
I have had a great marriage other than this kid. He has been a source of difficulties in our marriage. The how to make your wife an evil stepmother thing. Well I am not Evil - the kid is. Sorry, it is true.
No one except my husband and his bar buddies, nasty kid and the ow want this. My husband has made this whole new worthless bunch of friends and is off. I don't know what to do to get him to see reason. His whole family and our friends are trying to reach him, but he off o another planet.
What is so important for me to get across to all of you is to make your marriage first. Do not let a kid get between you like my husband has let this brat. If you love your husband - tell him and show him loud and clear. Keep close to him - LOVE him. To lose them over a bad mannered kid is just not worth it.
You have no idea how sad and painful this all is.
Sarah

This post is in response to several posts, not to sarah's, so please don't take this as an assault on you, sarah. I have read your previous posts and know that your husband and stepson somehow blame you for the stepson joining the Marines. As if you forced him to sign up. That is rediculous and I hope that your husband sees the light before he loses a good woman. Of course, if he is acting the way you say, you'd probably be better off without him. I wonder if the son joining the Marines is just an excuse for him to be mad at you so he can justify his actions. I also hope that the Marines help to straighten out your stepson.

I just would like to mention the fact that some stepmothers also talk to stepchildren the way they wouldn't speak to anybody else's children. If you treat your stepchildren rudely, and I'm not making any accusations, than you shouldn't expect any behavior from them that is different than your behavior toward them. Coaches, teachers, priests, friends parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents, any adult in a childs life generally do not treat the children the way a stepparent sometimes does and they also interfere with a childs relationship with their father the way a stepparent may.

My mother did not teach me to disrespect my stepmother. My stepmother's disrespect for me CAUSED me to not respect her. She was not the other woman and my parents did not break up because of her, but if she had been, I would respect her even less. If a woman and my father had disrespected the marriage between my parents enough that they would have an affair, then how are either of them deserving of respect from me? I agree with kkny in the sense that depending on the age, many children are probably able, pretty easily to figure out that Dad has another woman on the side. What is the BioMom supposed to do to keep them from knowing? If the Dad didn't do it, there would be nothing to hide. It shouldn't be up to the BioMom to help Dad and Stepmom save face.

If, by the logic of some of the posters on this page, the other woman is not able to break up a marriage, than neither are stepchildren. Both of those senarios are not exactly true if you ask me, but if you think a marriage is strong enough to withstand one, it should certainly be strong enough to withstand both.

"This s the reason why HUMANS INVENTED SOCIETY where our life is not regulated around natural law (the strongest survive, the weak dies) but around social law so we use enormous resources to keep alive and nurture our weak and sick for the contribution they are able to give to our humanity and not to our gene pool."

It is not possible to separate "natural law" from "social law." Dawkins and others have written extensively on this subject.

Human beings and other primates, as well as all species that produce relatively few offspring, invest enormous resources in their offspring.

Woman continue to lactate for quite awhile if they stop eating - witness the family who were stuck for days in the snow in the northwest. The mother had almost nothing to eat, but she was able to nurse both her baby and her preschooler.

"It is not possible to separate "natural law" from "social law." Dawkins and others have written extensively on this subject.

Human beings and other primates, as well as all species that produce relatively few offspring, invest enormous resources in their offspring.

Woman continue to lactate for quite awhile if they stop eating - witness the family who were stuck for days in the snow in the northwest. The mother had almost nothing to eat, but she was able to nurse both her baby and her preschooler."

There is no natural law comparable to social law: just think how in many species, eve prmates, the adult males kill other males'offspring to get the females stop lactacting and back in heat or females abandonig or even eating their offspring if is weak at the birth.
BTW, humans do not produce relatively few offspring, till 50 years ago it was common for women in rural communities to have 6-7-8-9 children with many miscarriage or stillbirth in betweens but to have only 2 or 3 children reaching maturity. Humans in fact are much more prolific than other primates as gorillas or chimpanzee

And the books of Dawkins have been repeateadly confuted, just look in Amazon

About primates, for a less romantic view I suggest you read Diane Fossey's books or even some history about life in the European and American rural communities till the Nineteenth Century, children were routinely left to starve if sick or to fend for themselves if a bit older and just a few reached maturity. even today in many communities, especially in Third World, there are simply no resources enough to pass around to the weak ones, very young or very old people.

Women do not lactate (or mestruate) if their body fat goes to less than 20% of their weight: it happens routinely to athletes and anorexic.
Of corse for such a decrease you need several weeks of intense aerobic work or real starving (NOTHING to eat and little water to drink, without water even a robust women will stop producing milk in a few hors, ask any NICU nurse) , not two or three days without eating (if you are of a norman body weight to begin with)

Dawkins is one of the most respected evolutionary biologists alive today. Anyone can post a review on Amazon - I would suggest taking anything you read there with a grain of salt. He, and many others, have discussed the relationship between evolution and cultural practices at some length.

Humans do produce relatively few offspring, especially compared to the many mammalian species that produce litters, not to mention non-mammalian species such as turtles or fish.

"Dawkins is one of the most respected evolutionary biologists alive today. Anyone can post a review on Amazon - I would suggest taking anything you read there with a grain of salt. He, and many others, have discussed the relationship between evolution and cultural practices at some length."

I suggested that you look on Amazon because you will find there tens of books written by many other reputable biologists who differ greatly in their opinions. Check Luca Cavalli-Sforza who won the Nobel prize 3 years ago.

Humans produce many more young (women are fertile each month and not wice a year like most higher primates) than chimpanzee and gorilla that are the primates nearest to us (we share more than 98% of our DNa with them).

You must have misunderstood - I was not comparing humans to other primates; I was comparing primates (including humans) to other mammalian and non-mammalian species, many of which produce far more offspring. What I said was:

"Human beings and other primates, as well as all species that produce relatively few offspring, invest enormous resources in their offspring."

Where is the conflict between the work of Cavalli-Sforza and that of Dawkins? There are some differences, but both scientists apply Darwinian selection principles to studies of culture. Cavalli-Sforza's emphasis seems to be on the study of racial differences. I'm not seeing how this relates to a discussion of the investment of parental resources.

Read Cavalli-Sforza'book and not just the the book covers of Dawkins: Cavalli-Sforza was awarded the Nobel prize showing how cultures and communities shape not only the way of life, the survivor rate and the evolution of popuations but the DNA. He has traced all the DNA mutations in human populations showing that cooperation an the capacity to relate and intermingle with other culture and groups are the key to evolutionary success even for whole population..

BTW, doing so he has also showed, based on DNA result, that the concept of race applied to humans is just absurd,
From a Darwinian point of view, man can not survive as an isolated animal (like for instance a bear, that will meet another bear only in mating season) but only in enlarged group so the individual can survive only if the group he belongs develop a culture that allow for the older member to educate (to pass on the social and practical notions necessary to survive) the younger ones: this is the reason why as umans we value old people, because they pass on their knowledge, and young ones (because they are the future of the tribe) even if they are not related to us and any sane (mentally sane) adult will have the instinct to protect the weaker while in a world dominated by "selfish genes" we should just look favourably to the death of others as this would free resources for us.

sarah1 your post made me cry, because I don't know how my DH and I have survived the hell we have endured because of my SS (see my post about my MIL is an evil troll) That boy, lies, cheats, steals, has forged our name, tried to burn the house down and we suspect that he has behaved inappropriately with our little one. My husband has been a trooper and the message has always gone to his children, and my children and his family "she is my wife and i love her and you will not destroy our marriage" You may ask, why the SS was so bitter, and how can a father turn his back blah blah blah. But truly, yes a child will always be there, but they become adults and have their own lives. If they are allowed to destroy a marriage, they'll go on to their own lives and their own families and all you will be left with is a broken heart and have been robbed of your own hapiness. And dare I say it? YES it is OKAY to give yourself permission to have a happy life. Yes we must raise our kids, we owe them shelter and food and clothing and a safe loving environment. We do NOT owe them the ability to terrorize our home environment. If we allow them to do that, we are doing them an injustice, because they have to learn how to respect society somewhere, and that starts at home. A strong united front between parents (first or second) teaches a child how to function, and what is healthy. Allowing a child to manipulate and destroy teaches them that it is okay to demand whatever they want

*hugs sarah* hang in there. I totally know how you feel.

nyte

searer,

I have read quite a bit of Dawkins' work, and I think you are misunderstanding the "selfish gene" concept. Dawkins certainly does not minimize the importance of culture. From what I have read, the concepts developed by the two scientists are more similar than you seem to think.

From what I have seen, many other biologists do not agree with Cavalli-Sforza's position on the role of race in human populations, but that has little to do with this discussion.

Sarah....any update?

I know you said that friends and family are all trying to reach DH....any success yet?

Hang in there....

"searer,
I have read quite a bit of Dawkins' work, and I think you are misunderstanding the "selfish gene" concept. Dawkins certainly does not minimize the importance of culture. From what I have read, the concepts developed by the two scientists are more similar than you seem to think.

From what I have seen, many other biologists do not agree with Cavalli-Sforza's position on the role of race in human populations, but that has little to do with this discussion."

Two years ago I kept a graduate university course on this, and trust me, I have read Dawkins with enough attention to understand his work and teach it.

By the way, all the most respected biologiss agree with Cavalli-Sforza on everything as he has been able to PROVe through DNA testing his theories. in fact he won the Nobel prize for it.

I would be surprised if "all the most respected biologists" agreed with any one scientist.

I have a graduate degree in the field, so I am rather familiar with the topic. There doesn't seem to be much point in pursuing this discussion. I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make by bring Cavalli-Sforza into it, but I suspect everyone else is getting rather bored by our discussion.

Good grief...this has officially become the MOST BORING THREAD EVER!

"You know that no one can break up a good marriage. "

I'm really getting tired of seeing these comments and people not understanding how some of us feel about TOW. I'm a obvious stepmom and completely appauled by the thought of "The other woman" (or the other man)
People CAN break up a marriage.It is un-needed temptation.Maybe both partners thought life was grand until this other person came along.Then suddenly they are having all these doubts they never had before.
In my honest opinion,if you dont think other parties are to blame,it's either because you have been the other woman,or you havent had this done to you yet.
I've known many content relationships.Then comes the other woman.Suddenly the husband nit picks and thinks of every reason he can as to why he doesnt want to be with his wife.

They are women who dont give an ounce of sympathy or respect for someone else's marriage.Some even think it's fair game or better to snag a married man cuz they know the man can commit.
I refuse to be on this "the other woman doesnt exsist" band wagon. Get real people.

Sarah1,I'm terribly sorry to hear about what's going on.I remember your other post about when your step son joined the marines. I hope your husband can realize what he has before it's too late.

coolmama, I posted those words, and I meant that TOW (or sometimes the SKs) cannot break up a good marriage without help from, in this case, the BioDad. A good marriage can withstand the temptations of TOW. The "content" relationships that you've known were obviously not that content. If the attentions of another woman are enough to cause a husband to nit pick his wife, then he was already unhappy in his marrage. Yes, TOW may have precipitated events, but the husband was already discontent.

It almost sounds like you are saying the husband is blameless, that he is just the puppet of some brazen hussie intent on breaking up marriages. That just isn't the case. The husband has to be a willing participant to break up his marriage, and that means it is as much his fault as TOW's, if not more, since he had the greater responsibility to his marrige and family.

I'm not saying that TOW is blameless. I am saying she is not the only one to blame. And I do know what I am talking about. You see, my ex couldn't resist the temptations of other women. I don't blame the other women for that - that was his weakness and character flaw.

I dont think the husband is blameless.But I think you are wrong.Not every husband was discontent before the other woman came along.When someone else starts stealing their affections away though,then they start thinking they are unhappy.I'm sure there are many cases where it's the husband looking for another woman...but there are also cases where the other woman is the one pursuing it to an otherwise happily married man.
I'am so strongly against "The other woman" because women will never stop being competitive and coniving towards each other until this type of behavior stops. If all women woke up tomorrow and agreed never to pursue a married man,then men wouldnt be able to cheat,would they??? If they wanted more then what they have,they'd have to end it first.
I have been pursued by married men and men with girlfriends when I was single.It is something I absolutely would never do.I think it is morally wrong,and I wouldnt want some woman doing it to me.It's a shame all women cant feel the same.

I agree with coolmama.

I think that a man is very much responsible, but at the same time, the other woman can sometimes look better than the wife for a number of reasons...no responsibility, no children, something new and fresh, something different...the grass is greener and all of that.

Let's be honest, you love your husband and probably are still attracted to him, but you probably don't get the same excited butterflies that you got when you first started dating him.

Yes, yes, yes, I am sure there are lots of women who would not think twice about throwing themselves at married men. And if they land those married men, then they get what they deserve. But those otherwise happily married men have FREE WILL. They can tell the homewreckers "No, thank you." It's their CHOICE. If they choose TOW, their affections are not "stolen" away by TOW, they are given away to her. FREE WILL.

My DH is still very attractive at age 50 (think Pierce Brosnan), very intelligent, very successful professionally, and he exudes charisma. I have no doubt that women come on to him. As my mother is fond of telling me, "Be nice to your husband, there are lots of women who would want to take your place." But I trust that our marriage and family are more important to DH than another woman. It doesn't matter how good TOW looks, it's HIS responsibility to safeguard that trust, no hers.

Hello,
I really don't have much to say right now. The kid is still sending me hate e mails threatening me. Husband is still going thru with divorce - has put down retainer and says he has filed. I am now dreading the papers to be served on me. This is the worst thing hands down that has ever happened to me in my life - bar none.
I feel like I am in a bad dream I can't wake up from.
My husband says I broke his heart and that is why he has changed. He won't talk much, won't see a counselor, won't work on the marriage. Nothing. I can't seem to do a damned thing about anything. My younger stepson is skipping school and his friends are saying he is smoking dope. I have talked to the school and my husband has told him no driver's liscense til he gets attendance and grades up. He still has segment 2 and 180 days til he can go get his liscense. The kid is acting out from all the disaster. My daughter is miserable too. My older son may move out because of all the mess. I am losing everything - my husband, family, extended family, home, everything.
There you go ladies - that's my mess
Sarah

So sorry to hear about all of this,Sarah1.

Tamar,we will just have to agree to disagree then.Because as you can tell by Sarah's post,the other woman doesnt get what she deserves.The children are the ones suffering here.To be THAT selfish about your own needs,that you'd knowing break up a family is discusting to me.
Sarah,my prayers are with you and your children. Please keep us posted.I really hope things get better for you.

"A good marriage can withstand the temptations of TOW."

It often has nothing to do with whether the marriage is good, but a lot to do with clinical depression (in the husband and sometimes in TOW). Some researchers are of the opinion that the vast majority of the affairs of men in long-term marriages are the result of depression. Generally speaking, depressed men feel they are not loved enough. They are self-medicating through the chemical changes in the brain that occur during the early "in-love" stage of a relationship and the excitement of the illicit.

Also known as the typical mid-life crisis.

LOL,...yes, true.

I do agree with tamar, though. There have to be circumstances OTHER than a woman throwing herself at someone's husband to get him to take advantage--and it most certainly IS his choice to do so. No one could force a man to cheat--and if someone could, why would you WANT him?

Nope, we all have free will and are all responsible for our own decisions. No one can make you misbehave without your permission. It ALWAYS takes two to commit adultery.

Enough buzzwords? Cliches? LOL

sarah1

I am so sorry about the situation. Please don't give up, it's not the end of the world. Hold on to your children and draw strenghth from their love. Hold your head up and show your children how strong you can be. The divorce may take away many things, but it cannot take away your dignity. Do you have any kind of support system where you live? Any friends you can lean on for now?. I hope the best for you and your children. Take care and keep posting. I would like to know how you and the kids are doing.